AMI etc.

[joeb33050]

To: SAAMI, the SAAMI Technical Committee and the SAAMI members January, 2007


This letter is about the SAAMI Glossary, and in particular, about the definitions of the words "Headspace" and "Head Clearance" found on the internet at: http://www.saami.org/Glossary/index.cfm

I am requesting SAAMI or its Technical Committee to change the definition of the word "HEADSPACE" in the glossary, to reflect the meanings that the word has in popular usage; and to remove "Commonly confused with headspace" from the HEAD CLEARANCE definition.

I want to make SAAMI and its Technical Committee aware that authority of and respect for the Institute causes some to ascribe to the glossary and its definitions a precision, clarity and finality well beyond that claimed by the committee; and that some additional definitions of some of these words exist in common usage.

I'm in the process of writing, with a lot of help, a book on cast bullets. Recently I've taken an enormous amount of flak from some folks about my "improper" non SAAMI use of and definitions of the word "headspace". Some of these guys were downright angry!
The Preface to the SAAMI Glossary, part of which is shown below, should have served to inform these critics of the tentative or "in-process" nature of the glossary, and that SAAMI and it's Technical committee understand that this glossary and the included definitions are intended for use by that Technical Committee. As I understand it, SAAMI and the Technical Committee do not intend that this glossary and the included definitions be understood to be the definitive word on these word definitions.

PREFACE
"This working draft of a Glossary of Industry terms has been compiled by SAAMI's Technical Committee to facilitate technical interchanges between members of that committee. It is not intended to provide legal definition of the terms included, and, in light of further experiece, the definitions of these terms may change. It is not intended to be comprehensive since it does not cover the full range of the diversity of the sporting arms and ammunition industry's products. It is, in other words, a working draft that, it is hoped, may be useful in addressing certain technical matters frequently considered by the Technical Committee and is subject to further change and refinement...."

Surprisingly, at least to me, some folks feel very strongly about the definitions in the SAAMI glossary, believe that these definitions are the "official" definitions, and believe that these 'official SAAMI" definitions should be used by all speakers and writers.
I believe that these folks either failed to read or failed to understand the SAAMI Preface above.

Now to the definitions-here they are, from the glossary:

HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.
HEAD CLEARANCE
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.

Let me start by saying that I am neither an etymologist nor a lexicographer. I am, however, a native English speaker with sixty-eight years of experience.
Let me also say that I don't believe that "right or wrong" have much to do with word definitions in common usage, that word meanings change always and fast, and that there isn't anything much anyone can do about it.

Words frequently have more than one meaning; examples include "rifle", "bore" and "primer".
The word "headspace", in contexts having to do with guns, has a number of meanings.
One is as the SAAMI dimension called "headspace" on chamber drawings.
Another is the clearance between the bolt face and the base of a cartridge case.
Then there is the dimension on the cartridge case that corresponds to the SAAMI headspace drawing dimension.
And we see "headspace" as a verb with at least two meanings..

I don't claim that these are the precise or only definitions of the word, only that these are definitions used commonly by knowledgeable and thoughtful people.
Included below is a list of examples of the use of the word in the additional meanings mentioned above.
All of these meanings center about the notion of headspace; have to do with the cartridge being small enough to fit in the gun and yet not rattle around.
I suspect, after devoting more time to the word and its definitions than is reasonable, that "headspace" originally meant the space between the cartridge case head and the breech. I don't know this, I suspect it is true, the origin is not of great importance.

Yours Truly;


Joseph F. Brennan Jr.
11 Sombrero Blvd., #16
Marathon, FL 33050
joeb33050@yahoo.com

[joeb33050]

"HEADSPACE" as breech to case head clearance
http://homestudy.ihea.com/glossary_fa.htm#h International Hunter Education Association
Headspace: The distance between the base of the cartridge and the face of the bolt or breechblock. (This is determined by the rim of rimmed cartridges, the belt of belted cartridges and the shoulder or rimless cartridges).

http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/gages.htm
Every gunsmith knows that proper use of a headspace gage is the most reliable way to test the length of a rifle chamber. "Headspace" is the distance between the face of the breech and the base of the cartridge when the action is closed, and excessive headspace can be dangerous as well as impair accuracy. (See also the Forster advertisement for headspace gages on page 95 of Rifle magazine, January 2007, which includes the same definition.)

http://www.fulton-armory.com/headspace.htm
In practical terms, headspace is the clearance allowed between the base of the cartridge case and the face of the bolt.

http://groups.msn.com/THEGUNROOM/headspace.msnw
In practical terms, headspace is the clearance allowed between the base of the cartridge case and the face of the bolt.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscelli.htm#headspace
Q. What is "headspace?
A. Put in very simple term headspace is basically the amount of free play between the cartridge in the chamber and the face of the breech. With cartridges having a rim the headspace is measured from the back face of the barrel to the face of the breech. With rimless cases it is measured from either the mouth of the case (if a straight walled case) or from a datum point on the shoulder of the case.

http://hybrid.ualr.edu/satu/headspace.html
Headspace and the usage of headspace gauges generate a significant discussion, and often debate, when the subject comes up. Safety of a firearm is tied to the cartridge headspace, as excessive headspace can allow the brass cartridge case to rupture. Too tight headspace will not allow the cartridge to chamber correctly. With this said, it is obvious that headspace is simply the clearance of the cartridge in the firearm chamber.
Headspace gauges measure this clearance, and are in simplest terms a cartridge shaped chamber gauge.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=6&s2=15&pg=2
Headspace: Simply put, headspace is any free space between a fully-seated cartridge and the bolt face when the bolt is completely closed.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIG2.html
Using a light charge of powder, seat a heavy (long) bullet into the case just enough so that it will not fall out during normal handling. Single load. The intention here is to cause the bullet to be jammed into the origin of the rifling by the bolt. A tight case neck will aid in holding the case base back against the bolt face during this operation. When the round is fired the case will not be pushed forward by the firing pin but rather the shoulder will be blown forward thereby forming the case to the chamber, resulting in zero headspace.

http://www.alscustom.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=82
Essentially, headspace is the distance between the face of the breech and the base of the cartridge when the action is closed.

Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook, page 48
Headspace is a measurement of the distance between the headspacing surface of the cartridge (when the case is fully rearward in the chamber) and the headspacing surface of the chamber.

The Fouling Shot, November December 2006, ."308 vs. .30-30", Tom Gray, pages 184-12, 184-13
Even worse, when the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward in the chamber and sets the shoulder back. This causes excessive headspace to develop over time.
I once decided to find out why headspace increases in bolt guns with light loads.
The firing pin cannot drive the case too far forward and set the shoulder back causing excess headspace with a rim.

Handloader, August 2005, "Velocity and Pressure", John Barsness, page 65
Primer flatness can be an indication of relative pressure, but it's also caused by slightly excessive headspace, say the amount created by a maximum chamber and minimum sizing die.

[joeb33050]

"HEADSPACE" as a verb
The Fouling Shot, November December 2006, .308 vs. .30-30, Tom Gray, pages 184-12, 184
With a very shallow shoulder, the rim provides a much more positive way to headspace the case.
another meaning:
2007 Gun Digest, page 308, Brown Classic Single Shot Pistol, ...hand fitted and headspaced....

[joeb33050]

"HEADSPACE" as a cartridge dimension

The Fouling Shot, November December 2006, .308 vs. .30-30, Tom Gray, pages 184-12, 184-13
I set up a jig on my surface plate and using a height gage, I could measure the actual headspace dimension of a case.

Gun Digest Treasury, Deluxe 4th Edition, "Handloaders Troubles, Cures and Kinks", Bob Hagel, page 104
Another thing to remember is that you can also change headspace with the seating die.

Gun Digest Treasury, Deluxe 4th Edition, "Handloading For Varmint Hunting", John Lachuck, page 312
With light loads an apparent "bouncing" phenomenon can occur, yielding perfect-appearing cases, that none-the-less possess excessive headspace, often as much as .040" to .050".

Gun Digest Treasury, Deluxe 4th Edition, "Handloading For Varmint Hunting", John Lachuck, page 317
Excess headspace can result from a sizing die screwed down until it sets the case shoulder back too far.

Lyman 47th Reloading Handbook, page 20
Reloaders can dangerously shorten the headspace dimension of a bottleneck cartridge case by the use of an improperly dimensioned sizing die and/or shell holder, or by employing improper techniques.

Handloading is Great!, Warren Page, Gun Digest, 1958, 12th Edition, page 40
Secrets in sizing? Only two. First, be sure to set your die right, not so far down that the shoulder is pushed back and the case made too short for the chamber, creating a condition of excessive headspace which may mean a gas-spurting case separation..

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/685086
L.E. Wilson Cartridge Headspace Gage 30-06 Springfield
These gages measure the length from the base of the cartridge to the shoulder, as well as maximum case length. This process shows if your rifle ammunition is being produced within industry specifications.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/stoneypoint.htm
Using your caliper, you can precisely measure variations in the headspace dimensions of cases before and after firing. Works with new or re-sized cases, with or without bullets seated. This gauge measures from the case-head to the datum line on the case shoulder. It allows you to properly set back the case’s shoulder for a precise fit with your chamber; typically .001" to .002".

http://www.lymanproducts.com/store/page27.html
Rifle Head Space Gauges
Case Length/Headspace Gauge 22-250 $18.95
Case Length/Headspace Gauge 223 Rem $18.95
Case Length/Headspace Gauge 243 Win $18.95
Case Length/Headspace Gauge 270 Win $18.95
Case Length/Headspace Gauge 308 Win $18.95
Case Length/Headspace Gauge 30-06 $18.95

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/dies.cfm
Headspace/Case Length Gauges
Within the last few years, reloaders have become much more knowledgeable concerning some of the more technical aspects of handloading. This increased awareness has resulted in the widespread use of case gauges, run-out indicators, and headspace gauges. Headspace gauges have been available for decades, but have been little used by other than competitive shooters and those perfectionists dedicated to achieving the ultimate in accuracy.

In use, a resized case or loaded cartridge is dropped into the chamber of the gauge, as shown in this photo. The head of the case should stop between the small steps cut into the base of the gauge, indicating correct headspace.
Most of these gauges are essentially a chamber, cut for the particular cartridge being gauged. When a cartridge is inserted into the chamber, the case head will be flush with the base of the gauge.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=485
Lock-N-Load TM Headspace Gauge
The L-N-L Headspace Gauge is the best method we’ve found to extend brass life, improve accuracy, and enhance safety. The gauge measures variations in your brass before and after firing or re-sizing. It allows for comparison between fire-formed brass from your gun and your re-sized brass. Any of five interchangeable bushings are attached to your caliper using the same body as found on our Bullet Comparator.

http://www.6mmbr.com/jgcaseprep.html
Step 10
Determine and size to correct head space.
Reason: This step helps ensure maximum case life, consistent ignition, pressure, and accuracy.
Method: Use the Redding Instant Indicator Die. This tool has many uses among which is the ability to determine head space in relation to the SAAMI datum length.

http://www.wholesalehunter.net/mfgs/Redding-Reloading.html
"Instant Indicator" 220 Swift with Dial Indicator
Now you can quickly compare headspace and bullet seating depths within .001 of an inch. The "Instant Indicator" quickly checks the headspace from the case shoulder to the base. This information is critical for setting up your sizing die to precisely achieve the correct amount of shoulder bump

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/compshellhldrs.html
Now you can control headspace. The new Redding Competition Shellholders are packaged in five piece sets in .002” increments (+.002”, +.004”. +.006”, +.008” and +.010”). Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace. You can now easily adjust case-to-chamber headspace of your reloads with a simple shellholder change.

http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0012726.shtml
 The RCBS Shell Holder grips the shell securely and fits into the press firmly so you'll have no headspace and sizing problems.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:uCkMwpfw1JUJ:glarp.atk.com/2005New_Product/rcbs2005.pdf+headspace+rcbs&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=34
The Gold Medal rifle dies are available in Full-Length and Neck sizing styles. By removing the neck bushing, the Full Length
sizing die can be used as a “bump” die to set headspace back the desired amount.
Neck bushings are not included. Proper neck bushing size can be determined two ways. Measure the outside neck diameter of
your loaded cartridge, subtract .002” to .003”. This allows approximately .001” of brass spring back for correct neck tension. The other is to measure the neck wall thickness of your case, multiply by two, add the diameter of your bullet and subtract .001”. RCBS suggests that you have neck bushings one to two sizes above and below your target diameter.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIG2.html
Using a light charge of powder, seat a heavy (long) bullet into the case just enough so that it will not fall out during normal handling. Single load. The intention here is to cause the bullet to be jammed into the origin of the rifling by the bolt. A tight case neck will aid in holding the case base back against the bolt face during this operation. When the round is fired the case will not be pushed forward by the firing pin but rather the shoulder will be blown forward thereby forming the case to the chamber, resulting in zero headspace.
________________



Additional examples of "headspace" usage can be provided if required.
I will make copies of this letter available to the SAAMI members.

[Dale53]

I have, on more than one occasion, disagreed with JoeB.

However, If we just look at the word "Headspace" we will see that it is composed of two words, "Head" and "Space". The very word indicates the "space" between the head of the cartridge and the breech (whether a single shot's breech block or a bolt action's bolt).

For this reason, I have to go with Joe (dern, that hurt:( ).

Dale53

[carpetman]

Headspace as a noun---In the Navy the area allocated for what other branches call a latrine.

[Ricochet]

I disagree. Using "Headspace" to refer to the clearance between the cartridge case head and breech face is imprecise because it's dependent on the individual cartridge's dimensions. Headspace is a fixed (I know, it can change over time and with abuse) dimension of the gun that is checked with a headspace gauge.

It's not worth fighting over, and I don't object to using it colloquially for "head clearance" (which sounds terribly pedantic), as long as we understand from the context what is meant.

[mike in co]

it amazes me the eXtend some people will go to , just to not admit THEY ARE WRONG!....THIS WOULD BE YOU JOE!


MOST OF YOUR REFERENCES HOLD NO STRENGTH......ADVERTISING,

I MENTIONED THIS BEFORE

if anyone actually reads your 'REFERENCES" you will find an actual headspace definition for rimmed cases and reference to newer belted and rimless cases .

JOE...next to no one agreed with you, your error.
and now to cover your lack of education( in the gunsmiting world)...you want the world to change to agree with you.....

gunsmith's know what HEADSPACE is, advertiser dont.

i now why the cba put you on your own area...to keep an eye on your continuing errors......
you want to publish a book and you know next to nothing of its subject. your trolling here for "data", your refusal to accept true data shows your lack of skill in compiling a true reference book.

the world(saami) is wrong and joe is right....get a life!

go look in a mirror...say "i'm wrong" and move on.......

grow up and open the SPACE between your ears!
what a joke

mike

[mike in co]

I have, on more than one occasion, disagreed with JoeB.

However, If we just look at the word "Headspace" we will see that it is composed of two words, "Head" and "Space". The very word indicates the "space" between the head of the cartridge and the breech (whether a single shot's breech block or a bolt action's bolt).

For this reason, I have to go with Joe (dern, that hurt:( ).

Dale53


you dont have to agree with joe....
its one word, it has an existing definition, joes lack of education has casued him to error, he has not grown up to the point where he can acknowledge errors. as has been said many times, the gap you speak of is HEAD CLEARANCE. IT IS ANOTHER ESTABLISHED SAAMI DEFINITION.
mike

[trk]

I fail to see the purpose of the letter - other than that of informing a professional organization that has established standards and definitions that there are some commonly used definitions that differ from the technical defintions published by the professional organization.

[bravokilo]

you dont have to agree with joe....
its one word, it has an existing definition, joes lack of education has casued him to error, he has not grown up to the point where he can acknowledge errors. as has been said many times, the gap you speak of is HEAD CLEARANCE. IT IS ANOTHER ESTABLISHED SAAMI DEFINITION.
mike

Until you can cite as many sources for the usage of the term "head clearance" I would suggest you shove a large sock in your keyboard. You can start by looking through your loading manuals. I find it difficult to take somebody seriously when they claim to be interested in "precision" and they are too ignorant or too lazy to use a shift key at the beggining of a sentence. (Hint-there are TWO of them on the keyboard and BOTH are larger than the "Caps Lock" key you are so fond of.)

Joe is correct, "excessive headspace" is the COMMON term used to describe either a chamber too long OR a cartridge too short. It may not be SAAMI's term for both, but who cares?

One more thing before I go-DO NOT under any circumstances EVER have a gun chambered for a wildcat cartridge. If you do and ever have any head seperations you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out if you have a "headspace" or a "head clearance" problem. Your great all powerful GOD SAAMI won't be able to help you.

BK

[45nut]

Excuse me gentlemen,,but the respect for one another has obviously left the building in this discussion.
Does anyone need extra stress in their lives? I for one,,do not. Please ,,please do not let personal feelings override your IQ's. Nobody has justification for personal attacks over this topic. My life already has ample amounts of physical pain,,,please do not add to the anguish further.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Joe your proposal looks like 1984 Newspeak to me. Why add more confuson to an already murky subject? My vote is for going on with tradition, however imperfect it may appear to you. In the last few years, we have had the word gay, meaning lightheartedly happy, or brightly colored taken over by perverts. More recently, "issues" has all but replaced "questions," "problems," "conflicts, "arguments," etc. The only person who could like your proposal is Big Brother.

[bravokilo]

If you want "The Rest Of The Story" check out this link.....if you care.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10712

Read it and decide yourself just who is lacking in respect for fellow members.

BK

[joeb33050]

I fail to see the purpose of the letter - other than that of informing a professional organization that has established standards and definitions that there are some commonly used definitions that differ from the technical defintions published by the professional organization.

You didn't read the preface. And you're an engineer!
joe b.

[joeb33050]

you dont have to agree with joe....
its one word, it has an existing definition, joes lack of education has casued him to error, he has not grown up to the point where he can acknowledge errors. as has been said many times, the gap you speak of is HEAD CLEARANCE. IT IS ANOTHER ESTABLISHED SAAMI DEFINITION.
mike

Mike did not read the preface. That would have kept him from writing all this. Read the whole thing before writing, keeps the foot out of the mouth.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Joe your proposal looks like 1984 Newspeak to me. Why add more confuson to an already murky subject? My vote is for going on with tradition, however imperfect it may appear to you. In the last few years, we have had the word gay, meaning lightheartedly happy, or brightly colored taken over by perverts. More recently, "issues" has all but replaced "questions," "problems," "conflicts, "arguments," etc. The only person who could like your proposal is Big Brother.

NV, did you look at the references? Did you read the preface? My vote is for going on with tradition also. SAAMI is clear that the definitions in their glossary are for their use, not legal, not complete and not official in any sense. Says so in the preface.
The references quoted are from years of time, many people.
Some ascribe to SAAMI an infallibility beyond that which they claim for themselves, those some didn't read the preface. If SAAMI is going to have the glossary out there, and if some folks believe without reading the preface, then I think SAAMI should change their definitions to meet current usage. There are three references to an article by Tom Gray in a recent Fouling Shot. Tell me if he's wrong.
joe b.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Everybody has opinions. On this subject mine differs from yours. that doesn't make either of us evil.

[fourarmed]

I got the new NRA Firearms Resource Book (or whatever its actual title is) for Christmas, and it includes the SAAMI glossary. I noticed those two definitions in my reading of it. Now I admit to being one who thinks things are what they are, not what a lot of people think they are. So I guess I would have to say that this glossary is (or should be) a list of technical terms and their definitions, not a dictionary of common usage. Certainly "headspace" is one of the most misunderstood and misused technical terms in the shooting vocabulary. Maybe we need some new terms to encompass those other usages. I can't think of a better source of suggestions than this board. Nothing salacious or scatological, please. And no references to sheep.

[9.3X62AL]

It is easy to tell when hunting seasons have ended--and people are house-bound by cold weather.

[joeb33050]

It is easy to tell when hunting seasons have ended--and people are house-bound by cold weather.

I just got back from the range in Miami. It was ~83 and brutal in the sun. I have to go to the pool now.
joe b.

[9.3X62AL]

Well, Joe, I'm real happy that your climate isn't preventing you from spending quality time at the range. A lot of the rest of the country right now is doing without heat--electricity--or the ability to travel readily. So your last comments could seem--in some eyes--to be rather insensitive and arrogant.

But insensitivity and arrogance are typical elements in much that you post here. I am not calling into question your abilities or your knowledge of the craft of boolit casting and its related hobby fields. I am certain that your expertise exceeds my own by a considerable margin. But I will speak frankly here--I often emerge from having read your posts with less firm knowledge than I had prior to reading them. Your belaboring of this headspace and head clearance issue baffles me completely. And that's OK.

But I will not look on any longer in silence while you belittle other members here that have responded to your posts. Some of those responses have been brisk, to be sure. I suggest that if you wish to have constructive dialog with fellow casters on the subjects you broach here, that your content NOT include arrogant and demeaning references to a poster's background in the context of his or her post text. Modify your tone--or discontinue your discourse.

Thank you.

[sundog]

+1 Al. I've put up with alot of ice and power outages over the last several days, and my patience is worn a little thin. I still have to go out, yet again, one more time this evening, to pick up my SIL who works for local wrecker service. He's on his last call of the evening, a rollover. High temp in the long range is 34dF, so we've got a lot more to go before this over. Snow forecast for Sat, so we'll get a cover over all the ice. Just frieakin' great!

Nice having a Jeep that can handle getting around -- slowly. Candles, camp fuel, bottle gas, batteries, firewood..., homemade chile, even made some pesole! And when the 'lectrik is on I'd like to be able to get warm and read civil discourse on my favorite board. Ain't no reason for fellers what like the samest thing should be ascufflin'. sundog

[hpdrifter]

I think we ought to give it to the beer commercial; to make a MAN law!:)

[trk]

Joe -

I did read the preface.

I find it sadly humorous how you can persistently selectively gather all kinds of information and ignore the important facts, specifically:

The BASIS for the language used between designers, engineers, machinists and tool and die makers is the set of standards formerly published by ANSI and now published by ASME, in the Y14 series. If you had bothered to read these, the terms that SAAMI uses and lists in their glossary make sense and are consistent with the terms used in manufacturing.

Yet you go to the least authoritative and least informed sources [where there is confusion and lack of understanding], and use that confusion for a basis for asking an organization that sets or recommends the terms used in the industry to redefine the meanings of existing, established terms to become something else. I cannot see how this would reduce the amount of confusion.

[No_1]

JoeB,
Please try to understand that the following is not a personal attack on you. It is just my opinion.

You have posted your letter. Some members agree with your view and some do not. If you were looking for input then without a doubt you have gotten it. It is painfully obvious that you feel very stongly about your view just as others feel stongly about theirs. I did not realize there was a difference in the 2 words so I have learned something.

To whom it may concern,
I do feel the time spent name-calling / personal bashing by those who have done so could have been used in a more creative way to explain their points of view.

I come here to relax and enjoy the information that real people (not some writer who gets kick-backs) share. The sharing of these thoughts / ideas make us all better at the thing we love the most.

I am not a moderator here but do ask all to please refrain from such personal attacks which is sometimes the outcome of these different points of view.

Robert

[bravokilo]

This...

JOE...next to no one agreed with you, your error.
and now to cover your lack of education( in the gunsmiting world)...you want the world to change to agree with you.....


i now why the cba put you on your own area...to keep an eye on your continuing errors......
you want to publish a book and you know next to nothing of its subject. your trolling here for "data", your refusal to accept true data shows your lack of skill in compiling a true reference book.

the world(saami) is wrong and joe is right....get a life!

go look in a mirror...say "i'm wrong" and move on.......

grow up and open the SPACE between your ears!
what a joke

and this....

joes lack of education has casued him to error, he has not grown up to the point where he can acknowledge errors. as has been said many times, the gap you speak of is HEAD CLEARANCE. IT IS ANOTHER ESTABLISHED SAAMI DEFINITION.



is not insensitive, arrogant or belittling but this...




You didn't read the preface. And you're an engineer!
joe b.

and this..

Mike did not read the preface. That would have kept him from writing all this. Read the whole thing before writing, keeps the foot out of the mouth.
joe b.

and this...

NV, did you look at the references? Did you read the preface? My vote is for going on with tradition also. SAAMI is clear that the definitions in their glossary are for their use, not legal, not complete and not official in any sense. Says so in the preface.
The references quoted are from years of time, many people.
Some ascribe to SAAMI an infallibility beyond that which they claim for themselves, those some didn't read the preface. If SAAMI is going to have the glossary out there, and if some folks believe without reading the preface, then I think SAAMI should change their definitions to meet current usage. There are three references to an article by Tom Gray in a recent Fouling Shot. Tell me if he's wrong.
joe b.

and this...

I just got back from the range in Miami. It was ~83 and brutal in the sun. I have to go to the pool now.
joe b.

IS?????

Please do not misunderstand me. I am NOT trying to be sarcastic or start a whizzing match, I just do not follow this at all. The guy starts a thread looking for information and uses a common term in a COMMONLY accepted manner and he is abused, ridiculed, demeaned and harrassed and followed around the internet because a few (mostly one) individuals who seem to think he is wrong. I have not seen any PROOF that the term "head clearance" is in any way shape or form a COMMONLY used term. Until the original thread I don't recall (memory being what it is) ever even seeing the term before. Lest you think I have come in late I will tell you I have been shooting for 44yrs and reloading for 36yrs. I have an almost complete set of American Rifleman starting with 1949, a complete set of the Handloder's Digest and I am currently 3 or 4 vol short of a complete set of Gun Digest. I also have about 100 yrs (or more) worth of various other shooting magazines (G&A, Shooting Times, Handloader, Rifle...etc). Oh, almost forgot, and several HUNDRED other shooting related books. I like to think I know at least a little bit about what I'm talking about. However I AM willing to learn. SHOW ME THE PROOF!!! I have an extensive library, tell me were to find the term "head clearance" actually being used. Give me a magazine article, book, loading manual, anything. DO NOT try to do it by writing 15 posts with your "Caps Lock" key down and pointing to the SAAMI glossary.

I presume Joe cotinues with this because he is RIGHT. I DO NOT presume Joe needs me here to defend him. I simply can't stand to see arrogant individuals trying to bludgeon somebody into submission just because THEY have the idea that he is wrong.

Joe, a suggestion if I may. When you sign off leave out the letter "e". Just use Job. You have earned the title.

BK

[9.3X62AL]

This whole thing is becoming medieval--like a bunch of monks in a friggin' cave arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Again. Enough.