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milprileb
07-31-2011, 12:40 PM
Well, here I am with 120 and 125 gr Lead bullets, a pound of Blue Dot and totally lost on where to start developing loads.

No BD in my Lyman Cast Bullet book, None in my Hornady and good old Alliant has a reloading site that is perfectly worthless for loads.... its all J word bullet loads for 9mm and BD.

The internet.... nothing there I can hang on to. Lots of speculation but no published loads.

Can anyone tell me starting loads and max loads for 9mm 120 gr and 125 gr lead bullets ?

Oh, pulled up my fathers two book set of Ken Waters Pet Loads..... no cigar t here either.

Trey45
07-31-2011, 12:46 PM
125gr lead bullet, starting load of 7.4gr blue dot, max load of 8.2gr.

Start low obviously, once you get good reliablility and accuracy, stop. Always be on the lookout for signs of overpressure, a blown up gun is a good sign you've gone too far.

I'm NOT a big fan of blue dot in the 9mm, the minimum caliber I like it for is 40S&W.

sundog
07-31-2011, 12:53 PM
The reason you are not finding any published data is that Blue Dot is not suited for this purpose. Save your BD for something like .357 mag. Powders suited for what you want to do are roughly in the range of HS6 and faster. 231, #2, #5, and several others meter very well in small charges and are suited for what you want to load.

Le Loup Solitaire
07-31-2011, 01:33 PM
There are lots of loadings for 9mm with lead bullets in the Lee manual (which is reasonably priced) as well as other sources. I use 115-125 grain lead bullets in 3 different 9's including a Luger. After a lot of tinkering with a lot of powders I found that 4.7-4.8 grains of IMR 4756 ran everything very well with a good loading density, lower pressure, burned clean and did not batter the guns. Recoil was mild and accuracy was good. Sundog is right; that blue dot is not the correct stuff for 9mm, especially when there is so many other choices around that are better. LLS

casterofboolits
07-31-2011, 01:53 PM
Well, here I am with 120 and 125 gr Lead bullets, a pound of Blue Dot and totally lost on where to start developing loads.

No BD in my Lyman Cast Bullet book, None in my Hornady and good old Alliant has a reloading site that is perfectly worthless for loads.... its all J word bullet loads for 9mm and BD.

The internet.... nothing there I can hang on to. Lots of speculation but no published loads.

Can anyone tell me starting loads and max loads for 9mm 120 gr and 125 gr lead bullets ?

Oh, pulled up my fathers two book set of Ken Waters Pet Loads..... no cigar t here either.

I have used BlueDot for 380, 9mm and 38 Super since the early 80's with great success.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, third edition lists BlueDot data for the Lyman #356402 09-121-TCPB. 5.9 gr. to start and max of 8.0 grains.

I use an H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB sized .357 and 6.5 grains of BlueDot. This is a mild load and has worked in Colt, HP and EAA pistols. This load made one hole groups at 15 yards from my HP.

Do not, I repeat....DO NOT use the max Lee loading data for BlueDot. I do not consider it safe.

I load my 38 Super IPSC rounds with a Wilson designed 38S-158-SWCBB and made major PF with no problem using BlueDot data from the same manual.

Data is out there. [smilie=l:

gefiltephish
07-31-2011, 03:33 PM
...None in my Hornady...

Hornady #8 page 899 shows 3 jacketed and one cast. I used this BD data for my mihec 124 hp bullets. I tested 4.8-6.1. I have seen max of 8.2 listed elsewhere, but I didn't go near that charge. I found no over pressure signs, including measuring across the web with a mic. Cases remained clean for all charges. Seemed to be fairly mild. Didn't produce better accuracy as I'd been hoping. Power Pistol showed a bit more promise for my application.

I made up some more and will be testing them from a rest instead of off hand.

milprileb
07-31-2011, 03:35 PM
Why Blue Dot.... slower burn rate so I don't get leading as I was getting with
Bullseye. BD was the recommended powder on this forum to use as was AA5.

rond
07-31-2011, 04:06 PM
I've used a lot of Red Dot for 9mm and 45acp, have not seen the need to use Blue Dot.

milprileb
07-31-2011, 04:10 PM
Red Dot is faster than Bullseye and BE contributed hugely to my leaded bore with cast bullets. Red Dot... that dog ain't gonna hunt !!!!

fecmech
07-31-2011, 04:25 PM
I'm not quite sure why people are so afraid of the max loads in the 9MM with BD. I've been to the 8 gr level with 120 gr bullets and got good performance and no pressure signs. The 3rd edition cast book shows 8.0 and 31.6K cup for 356402. BTW the Lee 120TC @ 1.060 OAL has the same bearing surface and amount of bullet in the case as 356402@ 1.110 OAL. The 2005 Alliant powder guide shows 8.2/BD for both lead and FMC 125 gr at 29.7 KPSI for lead and 29.9KPSI for the FMC. I don't think you can get enough BD in a 9MM case with a 125 gr bullet for a serious overload as 8 grs pretty much fills the case to the top!
As far as BD in the 9MM, IMO it's use is to duplicate jacketed performance with cast bullets.

milprileb
07-31-2011, 04:35 PM
With 8.0 being max, just where is the starting level for 120 Gr TC bullet? I would prefer
to work up a load rather than leap into max level.

mac1911
07-31-2011, 04:43 PM
you could call and ask alliant, they generally have unpublished knowledge.

milprileb
07-31-2011, 04:48 PM
Mac1911... that is on the training schedule for Monday at 0910 hrs. I don't expect much from t hem but perhaps I can get as starting charge out of them.

THey were real antsy about giving me BE data for 9mm six months ago.

Cherokee
07-31-2011, 04:49 PM
I would start about 6 gr and work up to what performs fine in your gun. I like BD and never had a problem with it.

ph4570
07-31-2011, 04:51 PM
6.5 gr BD and Lee TC 120 gr combo is a fine plinking load in all four of my 9mm tools.

dougader
07-31-2011, 05:37 PM
I've used BD for 9mm, 357 mag, 44 mag, 45 auto, 45 Colt, 9x23 Winchester, etc, since about 1989 or so.

First rule: do NOT use magnum primers. Its not needed and can cause pressure spikes like crazy.

I never used BD with cast bullets but used to run 8.9 grains BD under a Sierra 115 jhc for about 1258 fps. (Speer 11 data)

My Lyman 46th Edition shows their 121 grain bullet (#356402) with the following data:

Start: 5.9 grains BD for 973 fps @ 18,200 CUP
MAX: 8.0 grains BD for 1253 fps @ 31,600 CUP.

HeavyMetal
07-31-2011, 06:56 PM
milprileb:
look at Richard Lee's Modern Reloading second edition In it you'll find some Bluedot loads for the 9mm.

Under 125 grain boolits I found both a start load and a top load of 8.2 grains Bluedot.

Mostly, I believe, because you can't get more than 8.2 grains of BD in a 9mm case! BY the way this will be a compressed load so seat boolits slowly.

I also have a couple Speer manuals that show BD loads for the 9mm.

Suggestion to start at 6.9 grains and work up is sound advise and will not give you an issue.

Lee manual show 125 grain lead 8.2 grains Bluedot at 1190 FPS ( 4 inch barrel no doubt) and 29700 psi.

room to spare here I think.

You'll like BD in the 9mm particularly if you have a 5 or 6 inch barrel to burn it with!

fecmech
07-31-2011, 08:02 PM
With 8.0 being max, just where is the starting level for 120 Gr TC bullet? I would prefer
to work up a load rather than leap into max level.
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, third edition lists BlueDot data for the Lyman #356402 09-121-TCPB. 5.9 gr. to start and max of 8.0 grains.

timkelley
07-31-2011, 08:14 PM
I am no expert and I won't give any load data but I like Blue Dot in 9mm and .380. I get little leading and soft recoil.

theperfessor
07-31-2011, 08:41 PM
I use 6.8 - 7.0 gr BD with the Lee 358-125 RF and a Lyman 358480 133 gr SWC in my HiPower. I could probably kick it up a little more but why? It feeds and functions fine. I think I started at 6.2 and worked up until things worked dependably, it's been a long time since I first started using BD in 9mm.

turbo1889
07-31-2011, 09:15 PM
Blue Dot is the gold standard in the 9mm cartridge in my experience unless you are willing to go off the beaten path and into "no published load data land" where you can get a little better performance with a few other combinations that most people won't touch.

As to exact load data, the Lee reloading book has some, as do a few other sources. Some of it does call for jacketed bullets instead of cast lead bullets but you can use that same load data for the cast lead bullets of equal weight since a cast lead bullet has less bore friction then a jacketed one and often takes up less space inside the cartridge when loaded to the same OAL.

For the particular weight range of boolit the OP asked about (120-125gr.) my start load would be 6.0 grains of Blue Dot and I wouldn't go much if at all above 8.0 grains or so.

GabbyM
07-31-2011, 10:20 PM
I used 8.0 grains of Blue dot under 124gr cast and jacketed TC-FP for a couple years. Then my brass started getting loose primer pockets so I tossed out that brass and cut the laod to 7.7 grains. Was shot from a S&W with a .3554" grove barrel. My book shows I clocked a load in 1999 with WW 124-RN-FMJ loaded out long at 1.150 over 7.7 grains Blue Dot for an average Velocity of 1,127 fps. That’s just under the speed of sound. That’s my scale my chrono and my gun. ww primer Fed brass.

milprileb
08-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Well, I tried the 6.1 , 7.1, 7.7, 7.9 and very carefully measured the max 8.0 gr loads of BD pushing 120 gr Lee TC bullets with BAC lube. Great accuracy with the 8.0 loading at 25 yds but leading indicators increased from 6.1 up to 8.0.

When I pull a patch thru the barrel after 8.0 and see lead flakes on patch and run a brush to push anything out, it tells me that I got a problem.

I think its the .357 sized bullets and I will push up to .358. BD is a slower burn rate powder than 800X which pushes same bullet with zero leading. I suspect its not BD here but marginal bullet sizing fit to bore which is showing up. My alloy is 1.5 # lead to 8.5# of wheel weights so its not the allow being too hard nor soft.

I did not see any unburnt powder using BD as I always do with 800X. BD meters better than 800X but its not a joy like WW231 which meters very well.

milprileb
08-04-2011, 08:57 AM
For got to add, flattening of primer increased as charge increases. 7.7 and 7.9 accuracy was not great but 8.0 really closed down the group size nicely. I don't like 8.0 and don't intend to use it.

Back to drawing board with .358 bullets and BD.

HeavyMetal
08-04-2011, 09:08 AM
I may have seen this in another of your threads, and forgotten it, so I'll ask: what are you using for a lube?

Seems I remember some kind of tumble lube?

In any case if accuracy is where you want it to be and your just getting some lead flakes and such now is the time to test different lubes.

Next question what are you using for case's? I believe I suggested WW in a past thread and will do so once again because these have a max case capacity over other brands and using one head stamp, rather than mixed case's will give more consistant neck tension.

Jusat some thoughts and notes from my own 9mm loading.

turbo1889
08-04-2011, 09:17 AM
. . . . BD meters better than 800X but its not a joy like WW231 which meters very well.

If you are looking for a powder that is a joy to meter then AA#7 might be something you would be interested in. It is just a touch faster then BD and is sometimes mentioned in the same breath as BD in reference to slow burning powders for the 9mm that work well with plain base cast lead boolits.

Personally, I prefer BD over AA#7 because I can get a little more muzzle velocity out of BD while still maintaining accuracy without leading compared to AA#7 but it isn't much more velocity. Like 30 to 35 fps extra with a 140 grain boolit which most people wouldn't care about but if I were loading on a fully progressive press like a Dillon or something along those lines the AA#7 might win out for its edge in metering.

Not trying to distract you in mid-stream; just a letting you know about that other option.

milprileb
08-04-2011, 09:55 AM
I am using White Label BAC lube for all 9mm loads. I gave up on TL for 9mm although I do have a loading for 45ACP and PB powder that does well with Lee Liq. Allox and tumble lube. I do not use TL bullets though. I use standard mold bullets.

I shoot upwards of 1000 rds of pistol on a slow month, at times, 1000 rds in a week if weather is good. A powder that measures reliably is much appreciated and WW231 (HP38) does that for my 45acp loads.

Have not tried WW231 with 9mm as I have been oriented on slower powders to eliminate leading issues I had recently in 9mm loads. I do believe before I chase other powders and flounder about, I need to do the .358 sizing of bullets and see what happens with BD.

By process of testing and elimination, I know my alloy is not the issue and lube is not the issue as 120gr TC with BAC and pushed by 800X does not lead. So with BD, I suspect I have bullets that are marginally sized to bore and this shows up with BD and not with 800X. Of course, 800X is just a PITA to try to meter charges with and not compatible with my Dillon measure, my Ohaus Duo Measure (won't throw small enough charges of 800X) and Lee Pro. The only measure that does throw 800X with some degree of predictability is a very old Pacific bushing measure and only so if I tap the slide bar every time with 3 taps of a piece of wood and then throw the charge... that seems to settle the large 800X powder flakes into the bushing for a fairly consistent charge time after time. However that is way too slow for my shooting needs and with 1/2 pound of 800X left... I will be glad when its expended and I no longer have to limp about with the old Pacific bushing measure.

Anyhow, the help I have gotten on 9mm loads and leading has paid off and I can focus on bullet sizing for a final solution set for BD and this 120 Lee TC bullet.

GREENCOUNTYPETE
08-04-2011, 05:07 PM
LEE 2ND EDITION lists 8.2 gr blue dot as start and max for a 125 gr lead boolit

milprileb
08-04-2011, 08:03 PM
LEE 2ND EDITION lists 8.2 gr blue dot as start and max for a 125 gr lead boolit

That does not make a whole lot of sense... only one load is recommended and its the
flat out MAX load for that weight bullet and BD.

dougader
08-05-2011, 02:19 AM
Ramshot Silhouette and True Blue meter like water. You'll find even less cast boolit data for these powders, but notice in Lyman 49th True Blue is showing up and looks very good.

There is data for the Lyman 356637 (147 grain), START: 4.7 gr for 876 fps @ 24,800 CUP;
MAX: 5.3gr for 1024 fps @ 31,700 CUP.

Old Caster
08-05-2011, 10:15 PM
I think you might have a problem trying to shoot a .358 bullet in a 9. It will go in and fire but if you pull it before firing you will find that it is swaged down from the case and no longer .358.

HeavyMetal
08-05-2011, 11:33 PM
It depends on what he's using for an expander plug!

9mm case's are thick and may need a little "massaging" to deal with spring back and such but if the OP uses an expander plug of .357 diameter he should have no problem with swaging down his cast boolits unless they are very soft.

The OP may run into chambering problems if he gets some thick case's and a tight chamber combo in his gun but, like everything else in reloading, he'll have to try it and find out!

GREENCOUNTYPETE
08-06-2011, 12:45 PM
LEE 2ND EDITION lists 8.2 gr blue dot as start and max for a 125 gr lead boolit

That does not make a whole lot of sense... only one load is recommended and its the
flat out MAX load for that weight bullet and BD.

The book actually does that on a few loads i looks to be when it is the max that can fit is safely below pressure but is needed to get proper burn

another example is imr4227 om a 44mag under a 240 jacketed bullet it has 22.0 gr compressed as both starting and max with a pressure of 33000 psi

the book does it several times on 9mm adjusting slightly example a 95 gr bullet in a 9mm with 8.3 gr blue dot as max and recommended starting 22000 psi

the 8.2 gr of blue dot under a 125 lead boolit in 9mm lists 29700 psi

the charge looks to be case fill , there are certain powders that i have read about where you literal took the cartridge scooped it full of powder and seated a bullet on top and it worked quit well blue dot in 9mm is almost that , you could trim a piece of brass down to the depth the boolit seats at wrap a wire around the groove to make a handle and use it as your 9mm powder measure , you should check it for weight but that should get you very close

i have a make shift measure i made like that one day when i needed a size i didn't have it works fine 14ga ground wire form an electrical project i did works well when twisted as a scoop handle

Dannix
08-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Quoted for truth and take it to heart. Besides friction, a FN boolit has more weight up front compared to a pointy JRN and obviously more weight up front than a HP.

Some of it does call for jacketed bullets instead of cast lead bullets but you can use that same load data for the cast lead bullets of equal weight since a cast lead bullet has less bore friction then a jacketed one and often takes up less space inside the cartridge when loaded to the same OAL.


I know a lot of guys here love BlueDot for 9mm. I'm personally loving Silhouette and 115JRNs (with an unpublished load), but I'm looking forward to trying MiHec's 140grn boolit once the group buy is complete, and I bought AA#7 for that time.


One thing to write upon the table of thine heart when reading charge weights on forums -- a lot of guys fail to talk about OAL. What one guys is recommending may be at 1.150 OAL in his Glock, while another is recommending at 1.12 in his CZ. Charge weights without OAL are just about worthless, unless you can put them into the context of manual load data (see quote concerning manual data again).


Hope this helps

Boolseye
08-06-2011, 11:28 PM
I would start about 6 gr and work up to what performs fine in your gun.
+1 blue dot gets *hot* quick

odfairfaxsub
08-08-2011, 09:30 PM
actually bullseye is faster than red dot mr moly!!!

ku4hx
08-09-2011, 06:21 AM
Well, here I am with 120 and 125 gr Lead bullets, a pound of Blue Dot and totally lost on where to start developing loads.

No BD in my Lyman Cast Bullet book, None in my Hornady and good old Alliant has a reloading site that is perfectly worthless for loads.... its all J word bullet loads for 9mm and BD.

The internet.... nothing there I can hang on to. Lots of speculation but no published loads.

Can anyone tell me starting loads and max loads for 9mm 120 gr and 125 gr lead bullets ?

Oh, pulled up my fathers two book set of Ken Waters Pet Loads..... no cigar t here either.

My 9mm "plinking" load with 124 grain RNL (hard cast of course) was 6.5 grains of Bluedot. It works perfectly in my BHP, Glocks 17, 26, and 19 Gen4. BUT ... there were unburned powder flakes on my forearms which I don't care for.

The load proved to be light, accurate, consistent in MV and easy on the guns. But for this "plinker" I've moved to 5.5 grains of Power Pistol. It too works to perfection and there is no unburned powder flakes I can see.

Bluedot is a great pistol powder, but my prior experience (and other's as stated here) is that it should be reserved for the heavier loads in magnum or near magnum situations.

SlamFire1
08-13-2011, 06:07 PM
In my experience testing Blue Dot in 9mm, Blue Dot was a horrible powder. Overall it is a horrible powder for any cast bullet application. With magnum cartridges, 357, 44 Mag, it works well with jacketed bullets. With magnum cartridges it leads something awful.

For low pressure cartridges the extreme velocity spreads are wide, telling me this powder is only appropriate for magnum loadings.

I did not like the velocity spreads in the 9mm. When you have spreads in the three digits, like the stock market, just walk away. It is not your game.

The eight grain load with a 125 lead was so over pressure that my slide double pumped. I would load nothing higher than 6.5 grains.

In fact, I would not load it. I finally used Bullseye. Nice fast kick to the mechanism and it shot very well.



M92 FS Beretta Bar Sto Barrel

125 gr FMJ Olympic Factory

27-Mar-06 T = 61 F
Ave Vel = 1261
Std Dev = 20?
ES 63.11
High 1288
Low 1225
N = 10


125 LRN .356" Valiant 4.0 grs Bullseye S&W cases WSP OAL: 1.110'
9-Apr-06 T = 58 F accurate

Ave Vel = 1099
Std Dev = 12.16
ES 44.48
High 1124
Low 1080
N = 15


125 LRN Valiant .356" 6.0 grs Blue Dot S&W cases WSP OAL: 1.110'
9-Apr-06 T = 58 F v. accurate functioned each shot
Ave Vel = 1048
Std Dev = 32
ES 94
Low 1012
High 1106
N = 14



125 LRN Valiant .356' 6.5 grs Blue Dot S&W cases WSP
9-Apr-06 T = 59 F v.accurate slight leading at muzzle
Ave Vel = 1148
Std Dev = 30.87
ES 140.6
High 1226
Low 1085
N = 33


125 LRN Valiant .356" 7.5 grs Blue Dot S&W cases WSP OAL 1.110"
27-Mar-06 T = 60 F accurate, too much recoil leading at end of barrel
Ave Vel = 1326
Std Dev = 29.81
ES 105.2
High 1383
Low 1278
N = 27


125 LRN Valiant .356" 8.0 grs Blue Dot S&W cases WSP OAL 1.110"
27-Mar-06 T = 60 F way too much recoil! violent operation!

Ave Vel = 1414
Std Dev = 14.42
ES 42.1
High 1434
Low 1392
N = 8

HeavyMetal
08-13-2011, 07:38 PM
SlamFire1
Interesting data for the bluedot powder, I see you to got lucky and got a Bar-Sto barrel before they stopped making them for the Berreta / Taurus pistols.

I see your data was compiled in 2006. I realize that was 5 years ago but I wonder if you might have a little more data on the specific load used?

Answers I'm looking for if you have them:

Do you Trim case's? I see you used S&W case's which have the highest volume ( 9 grains of water) the same as WW and Super Vel. I have found case's trimed to the same length don't have as much shot to shot velocity spread. Curious as to your final case length.

Ream primer pockets?

Deburr flash hole?

Do you have the OAL for your LRN boolit? I see you sized .356 which will certainly reduce pressure over the same boolit sized .358 but we all know the deeper you seat a boolit the more pressure you generate. Curious as to your final OAL for the rounds tested.

Lube type?

Boolit mold designation? Here I am looking for boolit shape as not all boolits have the same radius / nose shape.

Reason I'm asking: I have a bar sto 6 inch stainless steel barrel in my Taurus PT99 Using a RNL I was able to get an average 1450 FPS with no signs of excess pressure in the expansion ring of my brass.

Yes recoil was way above the "normal" 9mm 115 and 125 grain factory loads but, let's face it, none of the factory loads is exploring low end 357 power levels either!

As we all know each and every gun is a rule unto itself. More importantly so is each reloader and how he builds his loads!

I did note that while your data showed some 3 digit varation in velocity all the Bluedot loads exhibited good accuracy as shown by your notes.

Thats why I'm looking for additional load info if you have it to add to my own load data.

Thanks

HM

milprileb
08-13-2011, 08:41 PM
I am loving this. I was recommended Blue Dot as its a slower burning powder and the consensus was BE was too hot and my leading issues were because I was using the wrong powder.

Now I got BD, am getting ho hum accuracy, some leading still and no pressure issues at 8.0 grains. Lower charges are not that accurate but 8.0 is for a 120gr Lee TC bullet with BAC lube.

Frankly, I don't know what to think so I am trying WW231 and Unique and see if I find a solution. I am not seeing any of the solutions or problems mentioned with Blue Dot.

The one powder that does perfectly is 800X but its so hard to meter and so darn dirty.

I am deeply into discovery learning with 9mm loads !

odfairfaxsub
08-13-2011, 08:50 PM
hey moly mud man. ill meet up with you and trade you what you have left in bluedot for bullseye if you want.

SlamFire1
08-13-2011, 10:40 PM
Do you Trim case's? I see you used S&W case's which have the highest volume ( 9 grains of water) the same as WW and Super Vel. I have found case's trimed to the same length don't have as much shot to shot velocity spread. Curious as to your final case length.

Ream primer pockets?

Deburr flash hole?

Do you have the OAL for your LRN boolit? I see you sized .356 which will certainly reduce pressure over the same boolit sized .358 but we all know the deeper you seat a boolit the more pressure you generate. Curious as to your final OAL for the rounds tested.

Lube type?

Boolit mold designation? Here I am looking for boolit shape as not all boolits have the same radius / nose shape.
This ammunition was loaded on a Dillion 550 B. I do not trim pistol cases, the S&W cases were once fired.

I dont ream pistol primer pockets and I dont deburr the flashhole.

The OAL was a nominal 1.10

These were commercial LRN cast bullets, whatever lube/mold Valiant bullets uses. They are about 13 BHM.



Reason I'm asking: I have a bar sto 6 inch stainless steel barrel in my Taurus PT99 Using a RNL I was able to get an average 1450 FPS with no signs of excess pressure in the expansion ring of my brass.
If you notice I shot a commercially loaded ammo over the chronograph. That load was a 125 gr FMJ. I take it as an article of faith that if my velocities exceed that of a commercial reload, that my pressures exceed safe limits. As we all know velocities just tell you velocities, but I believe that commercial loads are max velocity at max pressure. I want to keep my reloads below the velocities of off the shelf ammunition.

If you are pushing your loads to 1450 fps, that is a lot hotter than I want to go.

For pressures you need to consider slide speeds. I had a Colt Combat Elite that was defective from the factory and unlock occurred too early in the pressure curve. That slide was accelerated very fast and peened out the frame in about 3000 rounds. Auto guns are designed to operate within very limited pressure, pressure curve, kinematic (slide speed for one) windows. While your brass may look good, you may be beating the heck our of your frame.

If your pistol frame is aluminum, it has a finite fatique life. Heavy loads will just reduce that fatique life, by how much, I don't know.

As for accuracy, I shoot offhand at 25 yards. I am not a Nationally ranked Bullseye shooter, so the load either groups well, in which case it is "accurate", or it does not. Sometimes I get groups that are very tight, those are very accurate. However I am not a human bench rest, when I get to 50 yards, if I can keep all my offhand pistol shots on my 12 gong target at 50 yards, I am doing great. I am happy if more than 50% of the shot hit at 50 yards, really happy when I get into the 80%. Someone using a Ranson rest would be able to eliminate the human element and wobble. Someone using a bench would be able to shoot inside my hold.

This is 48 rounds offhand with a M1911 at 25 yards. I consider this to be very accurate.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/ReducedColtCombatElite48rounds230LR.jpg

SlamFire1
08-13-2011, 10:49 PM
Frankly, I don't know what to think so I am trying WW231 and Unique and see if I find a solution. I am not seeing any of the solutions or problems mentioned with Blue Dot.

I have not tried Unique. Bullseye and W231 do all I want to do. Three and half grains of Bullseye would not consistently function the pistol, but 4.0 did. Accuracy was good. I was looking for a light accurate load. I found it with Bullseye and with Bullseye of different lots. I also found it with W231



M92 FS Beretta Bar Sto Barrel


125 LRN Valiant .356" 3.5 grs Bullseye S&W cases WSP OAL 1.110"


27-Mar-06 T = 58 F
Ave Vel = 986.5
Std Dev = 9.21
ES = 25.78
High = 992.9
Low = 972.9
N = 14


125 LRN Valiant .356" 4.0 grs Bullseye S&W cases WSP OAL 1.110"
27-Mar-06 T = 58 F
Ave Vel = 1114
Std Dev = 20.63
ES = 79.03
High = 1167
Low = 1088
N = 32
accurate consistent function


125 LRN .356" 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 827 (60's/70's) Mixed cases WSP OAL 1.10"
20-Jun-09 T = 90 F
Ave Vel = 1147
Std Dev = 25.7
ES = 91.78
High = 1210
Low = 118
N = 15


125 LRN .356" 4.0 grs Bullseye 1998&2005 mixed lot Mixed cases WSP OAL 1.10"
20-Jun-09 T = 90 F

Ave Vel = 1110
Std Dev = 19.59
ES = 54.51
High = 1127
Low = 1073
N = 10


125 LRN .356" 4.1grs W231 Lot 8UB9 Mixed cases WSP OAL 1.10"
20-Jun-09 T = 90 F

Ave Vel = 1033
Std Dev = 11.53
ES = 44.11
High = 1066
Low = 1022
N = 12

HeavyMetal
08-13-2011, 11:23 PM
Just checked to confirm my OAL

With the Lee 125 2R LRN cast by me in my own alloy lubed with Carnuba Red my OAL is 1.130. This additional .020 can drop pressure levels drastically and confirms what I mentioned about each loader being a rule unto himself as well.

It is very likely you can't seat your boolits out futher than the 1.100 because of the shape of the nose. Once again proving that a whole bunch of variables exiting in re loading and just in one caliber!

Not intending to flame anyone merely pointing out how easily things can change from one loader to the next!

No I don't feed my Taurus a steady diet of BD loads at 1450! However I do believe this load functions at the original design spec's of 35,000PSI.

Very little american made 9mm factory loads approach 29,000 PSI any that do are instantly labeled +P so the ammo makes can protect themselves.

With out more knowledge of the store bought boolits you used I will concur that the Bullseye and 231 loads are doing everything you need them to do which is all that is important.

I will also agree that BD is much more a powder used to "wring" the most out of the 9mm cartridge If one wishes to!

BD has performed well for me, well enough that I will continue searching for a boolit other than the Lee RNL so that terminal performance will equal the power levels I can generate when needed.

For me I guess that means I'll try the Lee 125 RF 357 boolit and see what it does or step back the load level and work back up using my Lyman 9mm HP.

The fun of reloading is the search never ends!

milprileb
08-14-2011, 09:44 AM
My findings to date is the 9mm caliber is very unforgiving for accurate cast bullet shooting and non leading. Unlike 45acp which is pretty easy to develop non leading accurate loads, the 9mm is very fickle. It is indeed alloy, seating depth, lube, bullet design, unique barrel on pistol, powder choice and charge, air cooled or water quenched bullets, type of lube and sizing.

I am sure there is a Blue Dot loading that meshes with the variables and will get me across the finish line. Just how long that will take me to sort out is a krap shoot guess. I am not seeking to push 9mm , only to find accurate non leading load. To date any and all Blue Dot, WW231 and Bullseye loads function my 1911 slide and feed perfectly.

I do believe the reason I did not gain pressure signs with 8.0 gr of BD with 120 gr TC bullet is I have bullet seated to max length that will feed and chamber in my pistol. I got a little leading and best BD accuracy at this max loading but I dropped to 7.9 gr and accuracy expanded with same amount of lead flake on patches pushed thru bore. No pressure differences or recoil differences.

I started at 6.1 gr of BD and wide accuracy and no leading. 6.5, 7, 7.5 had same wide accuracy and increasing amounts of leading.

I am going to try harder alloy and air cooled and water cooled bullets of that alloy with mid range BD loads that had little accuracy and size bullets to .358 .

The search goes on. I hope I finally get on the map sheet as this wandering is tiresome.

winelover
08-14-2011, 10:54 AM
I used Bluedot for many years with J words in 9mm and 357 Magnum and loved it. When I first started casting, I explored BD for use with cast in those calibers. It didn't take me long to find out that it wasn't the best powder for those applications. The RCBS Cast Bullet Manual lists no loads for Bluedot in 9mm but plenty for Unique, Bulleye, Red Dot, 231, HP38, SR7625 and 700X. Long time ago, I settled on 5.0 grains of Unique for my 9mm loads in the 125 grain range. My OAL is 1.097 inches for my Browning HP with the gas checked 124-RN.

Winelover

Boolseye
08-14-2011, 08:11 PM
I have to weigh in with my go-to 9mm cast boollit powder, AA#5, with #7 working just as well. I load them up light–the stuff meters perfectly, burns completely and is dead-nuts accurate in my SIG under a Lee 124 gr TC or 102 GR RN. I did not like BD for cast 9mm (though it works great in my .38 and .357 cast loads).

milprileb
08-14-2011, 08:59 PM
Unfortunately the vendor who sells powders at our gun shows does not stock AA5. However
Win WSF is close and I may try that after I test Unique.

rayzer
08-18-2011, 11:37 PM
I was having fits trying to get my Beretta M9 shooting boolits. I finally settled on the Lee 125 Gr. RF. sized .358. pushed by 4.0 Gr. of Hercules, Unique. Overall length is 1.22" This is a verey accurate combo in my gun. Unfortunatley, I just ran out of Hercules Unique. Now i will have to try the Alliant, Unique.

Dannix
08-19-2011, 03:57 PM
Unfortunately the vendor who sells powders at our gun shows does not stock AA5. However
Win WSF is close and I may try that after I test Unique.
I've seen many positive remarks concerning WSF, but fyi I believe those were with ~124grn boolit weight.

happie2shoot
08-19-2011, 06:49 PM
try this for 9mm loading,, be careful

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=72

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740

Dannix
08-20-2011, 02:23 PM
try this for 9mm loading,, be careful

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=72

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740
Particularly so on that last one. 9mm "Major" is tricky business. I'lm sure milprileb has been around and needs no caution, but I post this for newbies who may come across it.

I found this link helpful when I first started.
What is your pet 9mm load? (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89264)