Long first post or Trail Boss Wonder Powder?

[jdee74]

I have been reading the forum for quite some time and have learned more than I can believe. I have finally found a question that I don't believe I have found a definite answer for on this forum or in related books.

First a little backstory. I started reloading and casting almost four years ago under my father-in-laws supervision. I have worked up to casting and loading for 38/357, 45 acp, and 40 S&W. I have been able to work up acceptable loads for all of these calibers in regards to function and accuracy. I have been on a quest to find an accurate and clean load for the 40 for over two years, and have been mostly succesfull. What I haven't been able to overcome is at least some leading in all calibers until recently. What I am talking about is lead at the start of the rifling in 40, some lead in the barrel in 45 auto, and especially lead in the throats and around the forcing cone in all my revolvers.

That is until I recently tried Trailboss in 38 special. I started with 3.5 grains and worked up to 4.2 grains with 158 grain boolits. In all loads that I have tried there is virtually no leading to be found. The guns are dirty, from what I beleive is powder and lube fouling, but that cleans off easily with hardly a speck of lead to be found.

This finally brings me to my question. I understand all the reasons for leading that I have read in these pages: fit, hardness, lube, velocity, and the quirks of the individual gun. I have explored all these issues in the past and have not overcome the lead issue until I tried Trail boss. In .38 I was able to use two different boolits, soft and hard lube, various load of poweder, in four different revolvers, and with the Trailboss I do not have any lead issues.

So this is wonderfull, right? Not really, because I do not know what it is that is making this work. What is different about Trailboss? What powder is similar that I can use in my auto loads, especially 40 S&W. Thank you for taking the time to read this, I look forward to any advice, explantions, or suggestions.:smile:

[geargnasher]

Basically the difference it's making is due to the burn rate. Black powder doesn't usually lead much, either. I'm supposing that you DO have fit issues, probably more to do with slight dimensional hickies with your guns than your loads, and the TB hits the boolits with peak pressure early on before they've even cleared the case, thus reducing the chance for gas-cutting and the resulting leading.

I personally don't care for the stuff, never liked quick powders for cast boolits except for a few things like .38 Special, but I'll admit it works pretty well for low-velocity stuff, expecially with soft boolits. In revolvers it's a trade-off between sealing the launch and skidding the rifling, so my approach has been to make the boolit big enough to seal the cylinder throat from the very beginning and use slower powders to keep pressure from peaking until the boolit gets at least the first band engraved in the rifling.

You're discovering that there certainly are more ways than one to skin a cat, and some work better than others. Does this mean that TB will cure the leading in the next revolver you buy? No. But it is something to try.

Gear

[MikeS]

If Trail Boss is working for you, I see no reason you couldn't use it in autos as well. I know that there are loads listed for TB in the 45ACP, I don't know if it's listed in 40. You could check Hodgdon's website, as they have loading data where you can choose the powder as well as the cartrdige.

[Lizard333]

It sounds like you have found a powder that works for your you. Good. I know that unique is found to be a very good powder for some, but I personally can't stand the stuff in my guns as it is terrible dirty. If Trail Boss is working, causing no leading, than you have found the right combination for your guns. Good job.

[Bret4207]

It's like gear said, you hit a lucky balance point in the 38. You have static fit ( the basic size if the boolit) and dynamic fit (the things that happen to change or alter the static fit on firing). I can define the the terms for you but I can't define the issue, boy I wish I could! So either you static fit is off a a little to start with or your powder/boolit design/lube/primer/alloy or any of several other things is off in those other guns. Use a systematic approach, change one thing at a time, record everything and look for a trend. If you can move the leading from one area to another, why you're on to something. If you see increases leading or a fall off in accuracy, you;re on to something. Figuring out where to go next is the hard part.

[HangFireW8]

I understand all the reasons for leading that I have read in these pages: fit, hardness, lube, velocity, and the quirks of the individual gun.

You can add to that "pressure", as Gear stated. Pressure includes peak pressure, and when peak pressure is reached.

In addition a dirty powder can act as a lube of sorts.

[jdee74]

Use a systematic approach, change one thing at a time, record everything and look for a trend. If you can move the leading from one area to another, why you're on to something. If you see increases leading or a fall off in accuracy, you;re on to something. Figuring out where to go next is the hard part.

This is exactly where I am at. I have a log with all the loads I have tried with notes on each loads accuracy, performance, and how much fouling I see with that load. Some loads have been much worse than others, and some have had little fouling. What is so confusing is that there has been at least a little leading in all the combinations that I have tried. I realize that fit is crucial, but I am at least one thousandth over groove diameter in all the guns that I shoot regularly, and two over in 40 S&W.

I do plan to try Trail Boss in 45 acp soon, there are loads that should work. As far as loads for 40, I have only found one reference and I am skeptical that it would cycle the gun, but I plan on trying it anyway.

I have about 12 powders in my cabinet that I have tried in various loads with various calibers. I understand how a very slow powder might mask fit problems, but Trail Boss is supposed to be very fast like 231 or Titegroup. What gives? I have wondered if the unique shape of the powder protects the base somehow, or it the powder burns cooler and doesn't deform the base as much? Thank you for the reponses so far.

[jdee74]

You can add to that "pressure", as Gear stated. Pressure includes peak pressure, and when peak pressure is reached.

In addition a dirty powder can act as a lube of sorts.


Very good points. I had wondered that even with Trail Boss being a fast powder, that lower pressure would cause it to act differently than other fast powders. I can see what you mean about the fouling acting as a barrier somehow.

[btroj]

It isn't just peak pressure that matters. It is how quickly peak pressure is reached. Trailboss reaches peak pressure fast enough to give the bullet a kick in the butt. That kick may be causing the bullet to get a bit fatter which is what is giving the better "dynamic fit". Basically it means the powder charge is bumping up e size of your bullet upon firing. This is why a softer bullet will sometimes stop leading and harder will make it worse.

Have you tried a slightly larger bulletin any of your guns? Even a difference of .001 can make a huge difference in leading. The fact that a change in powder like that stopped the leading tells me you are very close to having it licked over all and now you just need to play with other small variables and see what is the key for your guns. Could be a softer or harder alloy. Might be a lube change. Could be size.

Good luck.

[w30wcf]

....... the TB hits the boolits with peak pressure early on before they've even cleared the case, thus reducing the chance for gas-cutting and the resulting leading......
Gear

"That is it in a nutshell", as the old expression goes.
Take a look at this graph that was posted on the ASSRA forum awhile back.
Note that peak pressure was reached faster than even b.p......

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45_70_pressure3.jpg

w30wcf

[BCB]

Can't really help with the "why no leading" thing as I use TB quite a bit also. I never really noticed whether on not I was getting less leading than with other powders...

I don't get excessive amouints of leading, but I do get some--mostly just streaking and not the big "clumps" at the forcing cone...

But, I suppose you already know about the 70% formula? If you can't find data for a particular cartridge, IMR has listed the 70% formula...

But, in some cases, it disagrees with the published data...

I have never had a problem with the 70% formula and I shoot it in at least 8 cartridges...

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Good-luck...BCB

[jdee74]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45_70_pressure3.jpg[/IMG]

w30wcf

Wow! There's nothing like a visual to help understand a concept. Would there be a similar graph for other smokeless powders for comparison?

[3006guns]

w30wcf......that's an impressive little chart! Thanks for posting. I had no idea that TB reached peak pressure that fast and I've been playing with it for some time now.

[cajun shooter]

If all your leading is in the throat area then you need to cast a bigger bullet. If you have leading at the end of your barrel then your lube is giving out. Some times a bullet that is a mite too hard needs to be over size by more than .001 In my 44-40's that all slug at .427, I use .429 bullets. I also shoot bullets of only 10BHN which obturate with no problem. You did not say what the BHN of your alloy is and that is very important. On your 40 I know that people think they need a very hard bullet and that is not true. Your bullets could be in the Lyman #2 area or even less and work well. I have tried Trail Boss for loading rounds for other pards and I found that it had a very fast pressure curve when only adding small amounts. I found that Clays burned cleaner with less spikes.

[jdee74]

Can't really help with the "why no leading" thing as I use TB quite a bit also. I never really noticed whether on not I was getting less leading than with other powders...

I don't get excessive amouints of leading, but I do get some--mostly just streaking and not the big "clumps" at the forcing cone...

But, I suppose you already know about the 70% formula? If you can't find data for a particular cartridge, IMR has listed the 70% formula...

But, in some cases, it disagrees with the published data...

I have never had a problem with the 70% formula and I shoot it in at least 8 cartridges...

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Good-luck...BCB


You're correct about the 70% percent formula, and what I really need to do is just try it in some auto loads. At this point the amount of leading in my other known loads is relatively little, which I had finally decided was normal. However, after seeing the results of Trailboss in 38 I have wondered if it would be possible to replicate these results in other calibers and/or with other powders.

The 40 is really hurting my brain because I am over 2 thou over groove diameter. I have almost covinced my self to go back down to 1 over. It is only in the very begining of the rifling and is very consistent in both guns chambered for 40. I had thought that maybe it is skidding, but even with water quenched alloy in the 17-18 range I am getting these results. With air cooled the leading escalates to unacceptable levels, but in 38 and 45 air cooled works well.. I have also considered fire lapping, but the idea scares me more than a little. Again in my "good loads" we are talking about very small amounts of lead, which doesn't seem to affect accuracy, but now I have seen that no lead fouling is possible.

[w30wcf]

jdee74,

Unfortunately, not on any of the faster burning powders that I am aware of.
The other chart that was posted did have a trace on IMR4759.......

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45_70_pressures.jpg

w30wcf

[jdee74]

jdee74,

Unfortunately, not on any of the faster burning powders that I am aware of.
The other chart that was posted did have a trace on IMR4759.......

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45_70_pressures.jpg

w30wcf

Those charts are very helpful. I would love to see a similar graph for a fast powder like 231 and a slow one like 2400. May be something to look for in the future.

[geargnasher]

w3wcf, thank you for those images, I'm discovering that sometimes even seasoned casters have limited or no understanding of internal ballistics, and not having a basic idea of what happens when makes all this talk about dynamic fit and obturation later in the pressure-time curve seem like gibberish. The visuals sure to make it easy to understand, though. It was an eye-opener to me the first time I heard mention of such things, learning that a factory .270 Winchester typically reaches peak pressure with the bullet only two or three inches into the barrel.

Jdee74, remember that those curves are not absolutes for the particular powders, they are traces only valid for that exact gun and boolit combo. The trace on IMR 4759 will be MUCH different in a bottleneck cartridge, or with a different boolit weight. BP, however, won't change all that much.

Gear

[jdee74]

I understand how that would be true. The graphs do seem to illustrate how one powder behaves in comparison to another powder. Either way, it certainly makes the conversation about pressure spikes easier to understand.

[Bret4207]

JD, have you tried a different lube? Sometimes something simple like that works. Also, maybe I missed it, but have you pulled any loded rounds to see if the boolits are still +.002? That seems to be a somewhat common problem, that the boolit gets swaged down in seating. Worth a look.

FWIW- I dread working with my wifes 40.

[jdee74]

Yes, I have tried the ooey gooey soft, lar's carnauba red, and various hard lube. I have noticed the softer the lube, the more mess, but none have eliminated lead fouling completely. I have also measured boolits after seating and crimping and there does not appear to be any swaging of the boolit. Possibly skidding or rough machine marks might be the culprits in the 40. I will continue to try different variations, which isn't all that bad.

[prs]

JD;

I have used the 70% method for 40S&W and Lee tumble lube 401-175-TC. It cycled my Glock 23, but was very soft shooting. I ended up at near max load, just under where the powder would be compressed. The 40S&W does not hold much of that fluffy stuff. The spent primers look good, the cases are not bulged, and accuracy is subjectively decent ( I can hit steel targets on cowboy range with it consistently). No leading problems.

prs

[Bret4207]

Yes, I have tried the ooey gooey soft, lar's carnauba red, and various hard lube. I have noticed the softer the lube, the more mess, but none have eliminated lead fouling completely. I have also measured boolits after seating and crimping and there does not appear to be any swaging of the boolit. Possibly skidding or rough machine marks might be the culprits in the 40. I will continue to try different variations, which isn't all that bad.

Have you ever tried good old reliable 50/50 alox/beeswax? I know it's old fashioned, but it's a darn good lube.

[HangFireW8]

Have you ever tried good old reliable 50/50 alox/beeswax? I know it's old fashioned, but it's a darn good lube.

It is. Darn good lube, that is. The only complaints I've heard about it are smoke and softness, mostly from vendors of other formulas. Neither are enough to bother me. I kind of like the smell, too.

Lyman's NRA 50/50 is considerably softer/gooier than Javelina's. I have some Lee but I haven't tried it yet but I'm not sure where that falls in, but... I'm surprised something with the same formula has such a different consistency.

-HF

[MikeS]

Lyman's is softer than Javelina? I didn't think that was possible :) I mixed up some 50/50 using beeswax I got from RandyRat, and the alox was 350 I got from an eBay seller, and my mix was considerably harder than Javelina. Maybe I put in too much beeswax, but it came out about the same color as Javelina, just harder. They both seem to work fine in my guns. I was next going to try mixing up one of the formulas that uses Lucas Red and tacky grease, as I have a tube of it here. I just want to see how it works compared to the 50/50.

[HangFireW8]

Lyman's is softer than Javelina?

Yes, at least in my experience of comparing 3 or 4 sticks of Javelina to 2 sticks of Lyman's 50/50, in a cool Maryland basement.

-HF

[mpmarty]

I solved my 40 S&W leading problems. I bought 10mm barrels for all my 40 pistols. AA9 or Power Pistol 175gr TCTL boolits with 50/50 alox/jpw and no leading no more.

[jdee74]

That is interesting, does the larger case lower the pressures?