45/70 recoil

[Hot Lead]

I have a 45/70 1895 Marlin lever action on the way. I am now in the process of casting 405 grain FN. My question is this: I have been reading so much about the recoil of the 45/70. A lot of folks say the 45/70 can do a pounding on the good ol shoulder blade. What is a good load to give me a mild recoil and still be able to use as a hunting load. Any reload data you can supply would be appreciative. I now have 2400 and Unique in my reloading room. If you can use one of those two powders I would appreciate it. But, if you feel there is a better gunpowder, please let me know. I will be hunting Florida hammocks, which mean the maximum range would be about 75 yards. Most likely it would be 50 or less. Deer and mainly hogs will be the sought after game. And the hogs run on the large size. This info is included if it has anything to do with the uumpff I need.
Thank for your help.

[Ricochet]

For 50-75 yard hunting with a 405 grain bullet, I don't see how you can do better than to copy the old blackpowder ballistics. The standard factory load for many years has been a 405 grain bullet at a nominal 1320 FPS. Gets down the quarter mile just about 4 times as fast as the fuel dragsters. (Not taking aerodynamic slowing into account.) There are a lot of loads that'll do that, with mild pressures and moderate recoil.

[Ricochet]

Oh, yeah: 27 grains of 2400 is an old favorite load of mine under the 405 grain bullets. That's probably at the top end of trapdoor loads, mild for a Marlin, and maybe just a little tad hotter than blackpowder equivalent but not much. With a jacketed bullet Lyman rates that at 1355 FPS.

[wills]

There are those who load modern 45-70’s to nearly 458 magnum ballistics and those loadings incur recoil. Stick to the powder company loading data for trapdoor and there should not be any problem.

There is a lot of stuff online, here is some from Alliant, as an example.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=385&shellid=1099&bulletid=353

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=300&shellid=1099&bulletid=352

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=400&shellid=1099&bulletid=354

[John Boy]

Hot Lead, Felt Recoil is a function has 2 primary variables ... Fps and weight of the firearm. Here's a website calculator where you can put in your variables and the weight of your Marlin ... http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

I'm not much of a White Powder but using a 535gr bullet and 70grs of Swiss 1.5F out of a 9.5# rifle ... I'll spend the whole day at the range with 100+ reloads with nary a twinge in the shoulder.

If you don't pull the butt stock up tight though, that slap is going to hurt like hell. And if you have a preconceived fear of the 45-70 recoil, just put a butt plate recoil pad on it.

Either your 2400 and the NEW Unique will provide you with a load for deer and pigs, the Unique having a slower burn rate-WRONG ... 2400 is RQ 27 and Unique is RQ61 and lower velocity than the 2400. Check out the Alliant loading data

Hang a Big One! But I understand them FL deer come home in the glove compartment :bigsmyl2:

[9.3X62AL]

That Marlin rifle gives you some latitude in terms of velocity capability--if you choose to pursue it. As you point out, chasing higher velocity in the 45-70 has a side-effect of recoil, but there's no free lunch when you want to project energy.

I also have a light-weight 45-70, a Ruger #1. I have owned 2 Marlin 95's, and was very happy with both. Friends wanted them after firing the rifles, so I sold them both several years apart--replacing them with the #1. There has not been a time in over 20 years that a 45-70 has not been in my gun safe.

I think the 405 grain boolit you mention is the single best boolit weight in this caliber. Its 1873-level loading (1300-1325 FPS) is no slouch in the game fields, and is not uncomfortable to shoot. I would compare its recoil level to that of a good 20 gauge pheasant load. This same load is the one I'm using most frequently in my Ruger #1. I arrive there using a duplex load of 6.0 grains of IMR-4198 under 46.0 grains of WC-860 surplus 50 BMG ball powder.

There are other routes to that goal, however. The Alliant loading data shows 25.0 grains of 2400 powder giving a 385 grain cast boolit 1,340 FPS with 21,300 CUP, well below Trapdoor Springfield limits. This is getting pretty close to those 1873 level loads I spoke of with a 405 grain boolit. IMR-4198 and IMR-3031 are other appropriate fuels for these levels of loading.

One note of caution before you get deeply invested in boolit molds for your 45-70. A LOT of molds intended for 45 caliber rifles cast boolits that are undersized for the groove diameters and throats found in 45-70 barrels. This is especially so with Trapdoors, but still remains an issue with more modern barrels. My Ruger's throat and groove dimensions are .459", for example. Lyman and RCBS would have you believe that their nominal .457" dimensions would service all 45-70 barrels, but I would venture to say that such castings would fit relatively few real world barrels. Slug the throat and barrel, confirm dimensions, and save yourself some grief and leading removal.

Hope this helps.

[Bullshop]

Now just hold on there John boy. Unless sombody did some radicle changes 2400 has always been slower burning than Unique.
Better check that out before you give out that info. Could cause some serious problems for someone.
BIC/BS

[wills]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/product_catalog.htm

[oksmle]

Hot Lead .... Just a suggestion, but you mght try what I did. I worked up a load for my original 1873 Spgfld carbine to match the original "carbine load" which was a 405 grain boolit @ 1100 fps. Using 12.5 grs Unique, R.P. cases & Rem. large pistol primers (for the soft hammer fall of the Spgfld) the load clocked in at 1150 fps. I figured this was close enough. And I was getting about 3" groups @ 100 yards. When I acquired a Ruger #3 (which feels lighter & has more recoil than the Spgfld with the same load) I used the same load except substituted Rem. 9 1/2 primers. It clocks in at 1135 fps. Both of these rifles are sighted in at 100 yards & are very pleasant to shoot. Both have taken deer.
oksmle

[NVcurmudgeon]

I used to shoot 23 gr. 2400 in my Marlin with the RCBS 400 gr. CB. You could shoot those loads all day, with no recoil worries, mv +/_ 1200 fps. Marlins are limited in cartridge length tolerance. It's in your factory owner's manual someplace, but they are OK with 400/405 gr. boolits, even the RCBS 400, which was about 430 in WW metal. 500 gr. boolits definitely won't feed, and you probably wouldn't enjoy the recoil very much.

[Nardoo]

I use 30 gns of AR2207 (H4198) under the old Lyman 457-122 HP which weighs around 320gns for my fun load. It is doing in the order of 1300 fps and is beaut for ladies and kids. It roars nicely and the old Marlin leaps a little but it does not hurt at all. New shooters love it.
By the same token if you are worried by recoil, load up a few of those 405 grainers to about 1800 fps (50 gns AR2206) and let them them loose down range. Shoot off 10 or so just for the fun of it. Then go back to your 1200 fps loads and they will feel like a .22. And they will kill as well as the fast ones.
That is the fun of the .45/70. You can shoot at any level you like.
My hunting load for Sambar deer in my Ruger #1 has a 405gn Woodleigh J word ar 2050fps. I just love that load. I also do pest destruction work using the RCBS 405gn boolit at 1400 fps using 42 gns of AR2206H (H4895) which burns dirty at this speed but is very soft recoiling. Punches holes straight on through. This year I plan to use a new 520 gn cast bullet for hunting.

Nardoo

[crossfireoops]

Ilove the 1150-1200 fps "window", whether for big honkin' 550s, or my secret Leeth "Chicken Bullet" 440s. The 440's are the lightest that I shoot ( No flies on the lighters implied)
Don't fool around much with "white Powder".
Don't own any that need it....they're all single shots, fallin', and rollin'.

ABSOLUTELY one of the best cartridges ever concieved.

I do wish that the U.S. gov. had chose the .45-80, after the "Sandy Hook" trials.

Than, we wouldn't be cussed with that damn .45-90 lever gun thing.

.45-100 is the one.............the REAL one.:drinks:

GTC

[Nrut]

Hot Lead.. at these low vel. be sure to use a soft bullet for hunting....:)

[shooter2]

4198 (either) should be on every cast bullet shooters bench. This load from Ross Seyfreid is a black powder duplicate. Use 40% of the nominal BP load. For the 45-70 that's 28 grains of 4198 behind your 405 grain bullet. And, use a healthy wad of Dacron to 'completely' fill the space. This is a pleasant and accurate load.

I found the Ruger #1 to recoil more than my Marlin. Not sure if was the weight of the gun, shape of the stock, or... I wish Ruger would build the 45-70 on their Tropical frame. I also wish they would bring back the 38-55 in the #1.

[Pat I.]

I have an LBT 405 grain Marlin bullet mould that casts one cavity pb and the other gas checked. I use 12 grains of Unique with the pb bullet for around 1100 FPS and a healthy dose of 3031 with the GC bullet for around 1800 fps. Needless to say the gas checked 3031 combo doesn't see much use unless I'm feeling masochistic that day.

For deer and hogs I'd look in one of the cast bullet loading manuals and find a load that gets you around 1300 fps with either of the powders you have.

[lovedogs]

Don't forget 5744 from Accurate. It's dirty burning but very good stuff. You can load it down until it won't push the bullet out the barrel and not have any problems. Some are position sensitive if the density gets too low; with 5744 you don't run into that. It was designed with that in mind; reduced loads, low density, good accuracy.

[Dale53]

The 45/70 is one of my loves. I have shot it with black powder, duplex, and smokeless loads. In hunting weight rifles, I can get all I need with straight black. However, I DO have a fondness for duplex (typically reduce the full blackpowder load by 10% by weight and replace with the same weight of RL 7 (next to the primer). I can then shoot ALL DAY long without fouling or cleaning with absolutely NO problems. It has slightly more velocity than straight black (Spence Wolf suggests that one grain of smokeless in this context is worth 3 grains of black). This also totally eliminates "powder position" as with straight black I have a case full (actually compressed) of powder. The power with the weight of bullet and caliber involved is adequate for most any animal in the United States using a cast bullet of the proper alloy and design.

I only have two 45/70's now:( (an early "new issue" Marlin with conventional rifling) and a Ruger #3. Both of these had a miserable buttplate that was guaranteed to hurt. I shot the Marlin with stiff loads in the summer when wearing but a "T" shirt and wore the marks and pain for a week! I promptly made a trip to my stockmaker and had a butt pad installed. I did not even wait to shoot the Ruger #3, but had a pad installed (and the "notch" that the old buttplate left in the heel of the stock filled with matching wood") immediately.

Now, both rifles are a pleasure to shoot. I use the Lee 340 gr bullet ahead of 31 grains of 4198 or a charge of RL-7 that gives the same ballistics (don't have my load on hand, now) and get consistent 1.5" groups at 100 yards. I am just starting to work with the Ruger and have no data to yet share.

I have not shot anything live with either rifle (I am a resident of Ohio and rifles are NOT allowed for deer unless they are muzzle loading rifles). All of my deer have been taken with revolvers (.44 magnum). However, my pistol experience tells me that a larger diameter, heavier, bullet of the appropriate shape and alloy should do at least as well as my revolvers (actually quite a bit better) and with a better delivery system (a rifle) should extend the range a bit... Knowing that my revolvers are really GOOD deer cartridges in the hands of a good shooter, I am just DYING to try out my 45/70's on deer.

Understand, I am EXTREMELY happy with my revolvers, but, for academic reasons, a feller just needs to experience ALL things![smilie=1:

Dale53

[Bullshop]

Wills
I checked out that chart and they seem to be listed in order of burn rate, with the single exception of #410. I think the 410 should be between 2400 and re#7. I am not sure as I have been unable to get any. I have been trying to find some because the suspected burn rate puts it in the correct range to possibly be the elusive perfect hornet powder. So with hornet in hand my quest continues.
BIC/BS

[Ricochet]

If you're using one of the 405 grain bullets with a large flat meplat, expansion isn't too important, but I agree casting them fairly soft is a good idea. The factory flat nosed 405 grain soft points often don't expand much at 1320 FPS, but they'll do the job on deer or hogs just fine.

My favorite boolit (which is a bit time consuming to produce) for the .45-70 is the Lyman #457122HP. Mine come out at .459" and 340 grains in wheelweights. I don't size them for my .458" groove diameter 1895 Marlin. For hunting it'd be better to dilute those wheelweights down to 20-25% of the mix with soft lead and water quench them. Makes a moderately hard alloy that's very malleable and ductile. 1-20 tin-lead probably was the alloy of choice when that boolit was introduced, but nowadays I use what I can get cheap from the scrap man. I load 'em on top of 35 grains of surplus WC680 (not WC860) powder with a magnum primer and a pinch of polyester fiber pillow filler and get about 1550 FPS out of them. Doesn't feel too different shooting that and the old factory loads, but that's really a .45-90 power level load. I don't load up the shoulder-purpling 1800 FPS 405s anymore.

[MGySgt]

45/90 Sharps - 430 gr 80% FP at 1475 FPS meets Cow Elk at 165yrds just above the heart - Cow walks a little bit and falls over dead.

No you do not need shoulder crunching loads for a 45 cal bullet of 400+ grains. Most people load them hot to 'Flatten Trajectory' No just how flat are you going to get with that big old hunk of lead flying out there?

Load what is accurate 1100 - 1500 FPS, big flat point and about 11 BRN hardness (use GC if yo need to). Shoot the load over different distances so you know where it is going to hit.

Then go hunting and enjoy it!

Just my humble opinion and what I have used and seen that works!

Drew

[35remington]

Just a few cheap and slow loads I use with any 400-405 grain bullet.

13.0 Red Dot gets 1125 fps.

16.0 grains Unique runs at 1265 fps. Pleasant to shoot, very little muzzle blast. Both shot out of a Microgroove Marlin .45-70. No filler is used. Good accuracy w/both.

Neither of these should be used in weak actions or the Trapdoor Springfields or replicas thereof.

[versifier]

Why not just put a recoil pad on the rifle and not worry about it. Then you can use the fastest, but most accurate load, and hunt with that. The Marlin rifle ain't gonna win any beauty contests, so you might as well turn it into something you'll be comfortabe shooting and not be worrying about it giving you two left shoulders.

[No_1]

If you are worried about altering the looks then add a mercury tube or 2 inside the stock. Just make sure if you add it yourself to drill the stock in a upward angle towards the front. You want the mercury to stay in the back of the tube(s) until you press the trigger. When all he** breaks loose the mercury will flow to the front and absorb some of the recoil. Also make sure you seal or epoxy them into the stock so the tube(s) do not move under recoil. If you need more dampning then add a recoil pad. I recommend both....

Robert


Why not just put a recoil pad on the rifle and not worry about it. Then you can use the fastest, but most accurate load, and hunt with that. The Marlin rifle ain't gonna win any beauty contests, so you might as well turn it into something you'll be comfortabe shooting and not be worrying about it giving you two left shoulders.

[Hot Lead]

Thank you folks for such very valuable information. Very appreciated.