Danger? Lead followed by jackets

[FromTheWoods]

The internet is full of opinions on this question, but I prefer to learn the answer from you folks here.

Are there safety or leading concerns when shooting many cast bullets and then, prior to cleaning, following them with shooting jacketed bullets? --In rifles and/or handguns.

[PacMan]

Unless you have a major build up of lead there should be no problem safety wise shooting jacketed after lead. Now shooting lead after jackted might cause a leading problem if you did not have a leading problem prior to shooting them. A little copper build up may or may not cause the gun to lead. Just have to try it and see.
What may happen if you have some leading and then shoot the jacketed bullets it may very well iron the lead to the barrel making cleaning difficult.

[Bret4207]

Agree with Dwight, the only danger would be if there is a build up of lead in the barrel that would cause a pressure rise with the jacketed. A good shooting cast gun won't be leaded at all and you can safely fire jacketed in it.

What do the internet commandos say? I imagine there are all sorts of horror stories at "BillyJoeJimBobsTacticalExtremeGunsite"

[btroj]

It isn't just the Internet, you will find all sorts of experts on cast bullets at the range too. Oddly, those experts never seem to be shooting cast bullets.

[docone31]

I do that all the time.
No worries there unless there was something to worry about in the first place.

[HammerMTB]

If, after shooting lead, you have some minor leading in your barrel, shooting jacketed will strip the lead right out. I use this technique to clean a barrel of minor leading.
This is not to say you can or should shoot one clean that looks like a sewer pipe.

[Larry Gibson]

Three weeks ago I conducted another test to attempt to determine if pressures would be raised by shooting jacketed after cast bullets. I was testing loads in the .44 magnum using an 8.4" contender. The velocity and psi were being measured using an Oehler M43. I fired 60 rounds of test loads using the 429460 HP over H110 and Alliant 2400. Maximum loads were achieved with velocities of 1500+ fps and psi(M43)s in the 30 - 36,000 range. I then also shot 2 strings (10 shots) using the Laser Cast 240 gr bullet over Unique.

I left the bore "as is". I then fired a 10 shot string of Magtech 240 gr jacketed SPs. The Average velocity was 1330 fps for the 10 shot string with an ES of 44 fps with an SD of 15. The average peak pressure was 22,800 psi with an ES of 3,600 psi. The high peak psi was 24,300 and the low was 20,700. The 1st shot through the cast bullet fouled bore was 1341 fps (3rd highest velocity) with a peak pressure of 22,300 psi, less than the average. The 2nd shot gave the lowest velocity at 1306 fps and the lowest psi at 20,700. It wasn't until the 7th shot that the highest velcity of 1350 fps was recorded with the highest psi of 24,300.

Again, as with numerous such tests in the past, I was unable to determine any increase in psi resulting from shooting jacketed bullets through a bore fouled with cast bullets. Granted there was not a serious build up of any leading. I would/have cleaned most of that out had there been anyway. The accuracy was excellent at 50 yards BTW with no indication the cast bullet fouling "threw" any of the shots.

Larry Gibson

[birdadly]

If, after shooting lead, you have some minor leading in your barrel, shooting jacketed will strip the lead right out. I use this technique to clean a barrel of minor leading.

This is what a fella at the range told me as he was shooting cast. He was nice enough to talk to a new-wanna-be caster (me) and told me some of his beliefs. So I don't know if it's valid, but it's what he believed! -Brad

[part_timer]

Thanks Larry that is some good info.

[44man]

Larry is correct. Nothing bad happens.
With severe leading, I would be concerned. Plug the bore with lead and things can be bad.
I worry about jacketed ironing lead tighter to the bore or copper rubbing off lead. So far it has not been a problem because my bores do not foul.
Fill the grooves with lead and shoot jacketed is a little foolish.

[FromTheWoods]

The stories on the web go from a nasty lead coating in the bore to blowing up your gun.

My question was promted by one of my sons. Yesterday we were out shooting, and he said he shot lead first and then employed jackets to help clean his bore.

Above, are three sides to that idea. One, cleans the bore. Two, coats the bore with lead. Three, doesn't do much of anything.

????????

[williamwaco]

If, after shooting lead, you have some minor leading in your barrel, shooting jacketed will strip the lead right out. I use this technique to clean a barrel of minor leading.
This is not to say you can or should shoot one clean that looks like a sewer pipe.




Ditto.

I carry a box of FMJ .38 special and .45 ACP in my range kit.

If a load causes trouble, I find that three rounds of J bullets will clean out 95% of the lead 95% of the time.

[fredj338]

J bullets don't clean the lead only iron the micro particles into the grooves. The big stuff may be gone, but slap a bore scope on it or clean it well & you'll find lead under the copper. As to pressure issues, sure. Lead a bbl of a high pressure round like the 40 then go chasing it w/ high pressure j bullets & a potential for KB is certainly there. I think one reason early Glock 40s got so many KB in LEA. Back then many pacticed w. cheaper lead bullet loads, not clean it, then feed it factory JHP, boom. Seen it happen.

[1Shirt]

Good thread, particularly Larry's comments. Have never considered it a problem, but don't shoot that many jacketed anyhow any more. Guess that's because I am cheap. Yep, also noticed that the experts arn't shooting cast. Hardly ever see a rifle shooter at our range shooting cast unless it is in a 45-70.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[429421Cowboy]

I have always been cautious since i read an article on Buffalo Bore's website i believe "The problem with cowboy bullets" granted it was about pure lead boolits leading badly then bulging the bbl with j bullets. I guess I'm so cheap and poor i don't shoot much jacketed anymore, i can do what i need with a big boolit anyhow. Come to think of it my 270 grain jsp's .44 loads are the only J's i've even got. And my Rugers don't lead so I'm not worried about it. However i like to take care of my guns so i won't fire jacketed in a very leaded bore.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Good post Larry.
OK, people have shot cast, jacked, cast in 22's for a long time, no problem has ever arisen.
Many of us, myself including, have shot cast & then GC'ed or jacketed as a temp. cleaning method since the 1960's at least, with no problems reported.
There are some reports of accuracy loss with shooting cast after jacked. Enough so that many of us cast shooters do not do it.
However I have never seen this tested scientifically, so even this may be an old wives tail. But it is a commonly held belief of many.:Fire::Fire:

[Wayne Smith]

I have always been cautious since i read an article on Buffalo Bore's website i believe "The problem with cowboy bullets" granted it was about pure lead boolits leading badly then bulging the bbl with j bullets. I guess I'm so cheap and poor i don't shoot much jacketed anymore, i can do what i need with a big boolit anyhow. Come to think of it my 270 grain jsp's .44 loads are the only J's i've even got. And my Rugers don't lead so I'm not worried about it. However i like to take care of my guns so i won't fire jacketed in a very leaded bore.

I'm struggling to imagine lead bulging a barrel. It's been demonsrated that bulging barrels is caused by air compression behind a barrel obstruction. As long as there is a hole for the air to get through all I can imagine is the lead squishing out of the way as the bullet goes through. I can't imagine it bending steel.

Is my imagination sorely uninformed?

[felix]

Yes, Wayne, it happens. Just when it does is a matter of chance. When there is no escape route, the "container" expands. The container might not spring back at the "point" of maximum pressure which is highly dependent upon the RATE of pressure increase at that point of interest. This phenomenon alone can be a reason why BR barrels are swapped at less than a 1000 rounds. Improper steel and/or cleaning between relays. BR accuracy is only obtained when the ACCELERATION of the projectile is most consistent for the shots in a relay. ... felix

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks, Felix. As I think it through more, I was assuming that the bullet would be undersize to the bore. Given the variation of bullets that is probably another erroneous assumption. Then there would be no escape route for the lead around a bullet that fit the bore. No place to squish back and forth, in other words, to quote my first post.

[44man]

It is the same as assuming a GC will clean out leading. Not to be. Too many recovered boolits have shown GC's covered with lead and leading still in the bore. Bullets have had lead on them with no reduction of bore leading but leading is harder to remove.
I think a soft lead boolit shot slow will remove more leading. But there are cleaning rods.
The entire solution is to prevent leading at the start.

[mroliver77]

Most of my loads leave no visible leading. A few of them are sighted and carried with both cast and jacketed. I have shot cast, then jacketed, then cast and then more jacketed in a few guns with no apparent problems whatsoever. It seems as if they are cleaned then "seasoned" with lead that the switching back and forth leaves little of either fouling. I must point out that this is with guns that do not readily foul and clean easily. A look with a bore scope would be interesting!

I have a fairly new to me Peruvian Mauser that has been factory re barreled to 30-06. After a quick cleaning the barrel looked clean and shiney. It shot so so with 311284 (16gr 2400)that were cast at 15+ brinnel. After 3-4 mags full it shot a bit better. After 50 rounds it shot much better. At 100 rnds it shot wonderful and barrel was very smooth and looked like new! I attributed this in part to the higher antimony boolits helping to scrub the copper out of the bore. Maybe I am wrong but that's my story.

J

[HammerMTB]

I think a lot of misconceptions arise when one assumes that if "X" occurred one time, it will happen every time the same way.
So I can say, I shoot jacketed bullets when I have leading, and it cleans the lead out. That is my experience. It works, and has worked every time I've tried it.
It is NOT to say it will always work, or that the amount of lead a jacketed bullet will remove is unlimited. I'm sure the method has its limitations. I would steer clear of trying to find the absolute limit.
I have also found lead cleaned out by GCs. I can't say it will work in every case, but I can say it has worked in the past.
There seem to be some implications above that say if it happens this way, it must be the only way. Experience indicates differently.

[mpmarty]

Inasmuch as I don't use the J word projectiles I don't worry about it. I get little or no leading in 308, 30/284, 45/70, 45acp or 10mm using air cooled wheel weights and fifty fifty JPW LLA tumble lube with no checks on any thing.

The 10mm used to lead but with around 10,000 rounds through it that is no longer the case.

[dave_g]

I don't have any guns that get serious leading anymore but I do sometimes get a little. I find that jacketed ammo does seem to clean that out. Since I started casting my own bullets I find that the leading I do get can be pretty easily removed with a good bronze brush and a tight patch on a brass jag.

Years ago before I knew much about cast bullets I used commercial cast and usually loaded near the top of the load data. I got a lot of leading from doing that. Usually in .357 magnum. Lewis lead remover time. Shooting jacketed bullets didn't seem to clean that out.

Sometimes I get lead residue on the face of the cylinder and for that I like to shoot a few jacketed loads through the gun to clean that up. It seems to make a difference. Especially with magnum rounds.

[EDK]

In MY experience, I have found that shooting RANCH DOG'S TLC 432 265 with XLOX or 45/45/10 and gas checked will remove residual lead from my bunch of 44 VAQUEROS. I need to process boolits to fire lap, but it's been too d*** hot around Saint Louie to do much in the non air conditioned reloading shack. For now, I take a Q-tip and apply 320 grit CLOVER lapping compound to the forcing cones of the guns I'm taking down hill to the targets and shoot whatever amount I want...usually 24 to 36 rounds for each gun. I see a small amount of lead, but then shoot six of the RANCH DOG boolits. 90% minimum of lead removed. I don't know if it is the tumble lube design, the lubricant with ALOX or the gas check....BUT it works for me in ALL my guns.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[uscra112]

I've noticed that, too. Shooting a "white powder lubed" commercial SWC in my Colt O.M. would lead the forcing cone and an inch or so up the barrel. Followup with an Alox lubed boolit would take it away again. No jackets needed.

I've studied the lubrication of rolling bearings rather more than casually in my machine tool career. It turns out that too much oil for a given RPM in a roller or ball bearing will cause early failure, due to the oil crowding under the rollers and essentially "freezing" there. The pressures generated in the contact area (Hertzian zone to engineers) are sufficient to compress the steel of the races so that it quickly spalls away, and the bearing breaks down.

I don't doubt that excessive lead in a barrel would behave just the same way, and that it would easily ring a barrel, if not actually split it.

Col. Harrison himself is the earliest authority I know of who recommended shooting minor lead fouling out using jacketed bullets. I've never questioned it.