wrinkled bullets

[perimedik]

bear with me guys it was literally my first cast.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/100_4365.jpg
Ingots were dropped and melted 10lb in the Lee Production pot with 8oz of 50/50 tin bar solder. It flowed well.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/100_4367.jpg
My bullets were wrinkled. Upon futher reseacrh the mold was not hot enough (Lee C309150F). It sat it in the pot on the edge with it partially submerged until no alloy stuck. I'll double the time next go around
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/100_4366.jpg

they weighed 155 grains on average

[Tatume]

As many bullets as you cast, your Lee mold should have gotten plenty hot. Lee molds are small blocks of aluminum, and heat up quickly. I suspect your pot is set at too low a temperature.

[Gtek]

+1 on POT- What was pot temp? Try at 700, every alloy/mold combo wants something a little diff. Base line and confirm pot temp and adjust tempo reading bullets. Go hard to get frosty then pull back. I have better results on hot end, drop them back in and go again. Sorry- you cannot buy experience. Document all your travels, temp, alloy etc., trust me it is worth it. First run looks great, you are soooooo close. Gtek

[onesonek]

How many pours are you getting in a minute? How many counts does it take for the sprue to freeze? From what I have learned, if the mold is clean, shiney wrinkled boolits = cool mold temp.. Try picking up your pace. At this point with the info given, I'm not so sure the pot temp is the issue.

[462]

Clean the mould, again, and do a short casting session. Many times, moulds need two or three cleaning and casting sessions before all the machining fluid is removed.

Once the mould is completely clean and has been pre-heated, your first drop should produce keepers. Then, as others mentioned, pick up your casting pace.

Read the Leementing sticky, which has to do with Lee mould preparation, and disregard Lee's instructions.

[perimedik]

Still need a lead thermometer (I know - I know)
My lee pot was set to 7 (flowed fine and fluxed well)
I was waiting for the frost counting to 6-8 seconds then tapping the sprue plate.
I tried pooring slower (handle throw) with the pot, closer to the opening, further away, all different techniques. My rhythm was slow (getting the hang of things).

They'll all go back in the pot (same alloy) and melt at a higher temp and keep the mold hotter.
I followed all teh prep work, cleaned the mold, smoked it etc, sat it in the pot.

I agree I feel soooooo close. learning curve I guess.

[cbrick]

Stop inspecting your bullets between casts. Aluminum disipates heat very rapidly, you'll never get it up to proper casting temp while looking at your bullets with the mold blocks open & empty.

Very doubtfull that pot temp is the issue, a too cool mold is your culprit. Cast faster, as quickly as practicle once the bullets drop close the mold & refill, keep this pace until the bullets start to get frosty. Look at your bullets when your finished casting.

Rick

[Gtek]

Wrinkled = Cold, Frosted = Hot. Yes you do need thermo! I am not a fan of alloy molds. Just for giggles and while waitng for thermo to show up on brown truck, try something. Learning curve -
Kick pot up a notch or two, start with stone cold mold and go watching drops change as mold comes up to temp. I assume you are ladle pouring. are you leaving in melt between pours? If you are laying aside it is already cooling you off before you even get to mold. Gtek

[onesonek]

"They'll all go back in the pot (same alloy) and melt at a higher temp and keep the mold hotter."

I too doubt as cbrick, that pot temp is the issue, other than,,,,,
Seems to me your pot temp is plenty high with a 6-8 second sprue, specially so with a cold mold/sprue plate. I'm far from being a master caster, but cutting with a gloved hand soon as the sprue center dulls at about 3 count on a 650-670 pot, at around 4 + pour per min. avg. (depending on the mold's wants). But your mold needs to be dropping consistantly to keep a steady pace. That may take some break-in sessions and lementing, as mentioned. Cast faster,,, it'll come around for you, as it did for me!

[cbrick]

perimedik, don't let your first casting session discourage you. Your first bullets look just about exactly like my first casting sessions did about 30 years ago. They also look just like my first several pours today when I didn't get the mold properly pre-heated.

Keep at it, it is a learning curve. Keep in mind that MOLD temp is the key, not pot temp. 700 degree pot temp will very easily get your mold up to proper casting temp and will be much easier on your alloy than higher alloy temps.

Rick

[Shiloh]

Clean the alloy if not already done.

As stated, run a hotter mold and melt.
When I get wrinkled boolits, it is because things are not up to where they need to be.
I used to be leery of running to hot. WHen the boolits get frosty, it is too hot. Up until they get frosty is where I get great boolits

Shiloh

[geargnasher]

perimedik, don't let your first casting session discourage you. Your first bullets look just about exactly like my first casting sessions did about 30 years ago. They also look just like my first several pours today when I didn't get the mold properly pre-heated.

Keep at it, it is a learning curve. Keep in mind that MOLD temp is the key, not pot temp. 700 degree pot temp will very easily get your mold up to proper casting temp and will be much easier on your alloy than higher alloy temps.

Rick

Tanks, Rick! You knew I was going to come along and say it anyway, didn't you? :kidding:

Perimedik, do what Rick advises. DON'T overheat your alloy, there's a long explanation on why not to, but trust us for now that 700 degrees is more than enough with your alloy. The advice is often given to "crank up the pot temp" when poor fillout or wrinkles are being experienced, this is merely a poor band-aid for casting too slow and not getting/keeping your mould hot enough. Those that still advise turning up the heat for better fillout might benefit from reading mine and Rick's posts. If it's hot enough to come out of the bottom of the pot, it's hot enough to cast.

Pot temperature should be maintained at a point that is best for the alloy, the rest is up to mould temperature, which is maintained by casting pace, the number of times per minute you pour hot lead into it.

Let me give you a target: Get a cheap analog wall clock with a second hand. Put it somewhere you can see it easily, preheat your mould and start casting. Glance at the clock and time yourself on each pour, to get the mould up to temp initially, cast at FOUR POURS A MINUTE until they start looking like you like them, then slow down a bit to level-out the mould temp.

The temperature that's best for the alloy is usually about 100 degrees over the point that it's fully liquid and just out of the slush or mush phase.

The temperature that's best for the mould is the temperature at which it casts the best boolits, and this varies greatly with mould design, boolit design, number of cavities, mould material, sprue plate thickness, alloy temperature and composition, and the weather. Yes, the weather. Humidity, temperature, and draft conditions all affect the pouring pace and resulting mould block temperature that works best for your particular mould on any given day.

Base fillout is controlled by sprue plate temperature, mould venting, and pour technique. Sprue plate temperature is easily controlled by the size of the sprue puddle you pour on top of the plate after the cavity and well is filled. Anywhere from a dime-sized to quarter sized puddle is about right, if the plate is too cool (rounded bases) make a bigger puddle for a while until it gets sharp. Venting of the bases has to do with sprue plate tension, and pour technique. If you'll tilt the mould toward you, tipping the handles down about ten degrees or so, and drop the stream into the hole at the far left or right edge of the hole (but center front-to-back) it will create a mini-vortex in the mould, swirling the alloy around as it fills which helps push air out of the driving band areas and helps keep bubbles/voids from forming in the bases.

Hope this helps some,

Gear

[perimedik]

Thanks again guys
CBrick-not discouraged, also not checking after each cast. Just trying to find a groove.
I think the temp of the lead is fine it is the mould temp that is the issue.

When asked about the lightbulb.
"I didn't fail 1000 times, I just learned 1000 ways NOT to make a lightbulb" - Edison

I'll keep trying this week when I find some time. I'll keep you posted.

[Dean D.]

One thing that was touched upon lightly already is not alowing your mould to stay open or empty any longer than necessary. I try to close up my mould as quickly as possible to reduce the chance of it cooling off too much. Sometimes I'll cut a sprue and leave the boolit in the mould to help hold the heat if I need to feed the pot or anything else that disrupts the pace.

Your off to a good start, all the reading in the world will not make you a master caster, only time spent casting will do that ;) Keep at it, you'll get there!

[leadman]

Also do not be afraid of frosted boolits. If you read the instructions with your Lee mold it will even say frosting is desirable, especially if you use their tumble lube.
Dip the mold in the melt like you did to get it up to temp. If you still have trouble with wrinkled boolits let the mold cool and clean it again. Might want to do this anyway.
I have had a couple Lee molds that kept producing wrinkled boolits no matter what I did. I finally dipped them in the pot until they were smoking, then poured lead into the mold. Took awhile for the sprue to harden, but after that they cast good boolits. Do this as a last resort.

Keep at it as you have a good start.

[Gswain]

Read the thread about mold fillout problems that I started in this forum, you can read it and say "gee, this sure sounds familiar" lol.

[acemedic13]

We've all been here. Clean-heat-pour-enjoy......Repeat process

[joedude]

If you'll tilt the mould toward you, tipping the handles down about ten degrees or so, and drop the stream into the hole at the far left or right edge of the hole (but center front-to-back) it will create a mini-vortex in the mould, swirling the alloy around as it fills which helps push air out of the driving band areas and helps keep bubbles/voids from forming in the bases.

Hope this helps some,

Gear

:Bright idea:

That's Brilliant! I look forward to trying that technique... Thanks for sharing.

[patsher]

And the thing I've found most helpful to keep up the mould temperature is to preheat them on a HOTPLATE!

Turn on the hotplate at the same time you turn on the lead pot. Turn it about 3/4 of the way to high, leave your mould with the blocks as flat on the hotplate as you can get them. (I rest the handles on a chunk of 2x4 to keep the blocks in full contact with the hotplate surface). Then when the lead is ready to cast, your mould is ready, too. Cast a few and check the boolits. If they're still wrinkled, turn the hotplate temp up a little, and keep doing so until you get good boolits.

This was advice I learned from somewhere on this forum, and it's made my casting a lot more fun since then!

Have fun!

Pat

[montana_charlie]

Seems to me your pot temp is plenty high with a 6-8 second sprue, specially so with a cold mold/sprue plate.!
I believe he meant that 6-8 seconds after the sprue frosts, he turns the sprue plate ... not that it takes 6-8 seconds for the sprue to freeze.

[Texantothecore]

The mold may not have been hot enough. I alos heat the sprue cutter as well as the mold and this seems to make a difference.

You may have some oil there, clean it and cast again. Some molds take a few casting sessions to get right. It is just part of the sequence of casting.

[geargnasher]

:Bright idea:

That's Brilliant! I look forward to trying that technique... Thanks for sharing.

I picked up that technique from a member who has since been banned. It really helps with moulds that don't have vent lines, or are very tight.

Gear

[Windyvista]

In Gear's post it states to run at a rate of Four Pours per Minute. Does the number of cavities in the mold make a difference relative to the pour rate ? If someone were pouring a 2 cavity mold at 4 pours / minute I would think that would be different than pouring a 6 cavity mold at 4 pours per minute. I am fairly new to casting myself and use 6 cavity molds. I am not sure if I could pour that fast or not.

I am also wondering about tin additions If the pot temp looks right and the mold is hot can adding tin at a rate of 1 or 2 % help fill out or decrease wrinkles ?

[462]

Memory says that a member conducted an experiment in which he timed casting with moulds of two, four and six cavities, and there wasn't as much of a difference as one would think.

Tin can aid fill out, but reducing the alloy's surface tension, but wrinkles are still the result of the above mentioned two causes.

[canyon-ghost]

Yes, clean the mold. Hot soapy water will do, rinse and dry really good. As Dean said:
One thing that was touched upon lightly already is not alowing your mould to stay open or empty any longer than necessary. I try to close up my mould as quickly as possible to reduce the chance of it cooling off too much.

When you pour again, the faster you pour to heat up the mold, the more hot lead goes through it. Just get a dull, frosted over sprue and empty and fill immediately. Keep going for six or so, then try holding the lead in the mold for a while (so the mold soaks up some really high temp). About three times of holding the lead in the mold (30 seconds after the dull sprue) and you'll have filled out boolits without wrinkles. Aluminum molds take slightly more than that but, that's the principle. It all requires keeping the mold closed.

When developing your technique, you best tool is your own attention span, pay attention and use your eyes. You can learn a lot just by watching what is happening.

Of course, this isn't the gloved hand method either, I use a mallet. If you wait too long, you won't open the sprue without a mallet.

And your first cast- Good going there, I see rifle bullets! You hung with it long enough to get a general eyefull.

[runfiverun]

the number of cav's and mold material will dictate your speed.
with my 2 cav rcbs 22-055 i cast as fast as i can move it's non stop open.close,pour, cut.
it's the same speed with my 2 cav 75 gr aluminum rapine mold.
the sprue isn't even fully hard when i open the mold. [i am probably close to 6 pours a minute with them]
it's just a titch [barely] slower with my 4 cav aluminums. [in the 5 pours a minute rate]
and my lyman 4 cav's seem to be loafing along, even with the alloy temp down to about 675-f.
they do make a pile of boolits. [i am doing about 4 pours a minute with them.]

[HDS]

It's probably the heat. I have the same problems with my 9mm aluminum 6-banger eve though it's a Mihec mold.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7257/7616492338_b73b50c68f_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82846378@N07/7616492338/)

The brass .45ACP mold next to it heats up easily on setting #3 and it holds the heat! It tends to get too hot on setting #4 but that doesn't seem to be enough even for the aluminum mold however. Wrinkles and more wrinkles still. I run my pot at 700F and the mold have been cleaned while hot with acetone and a q-tip.

I will have to try more aggressive methods next casting session to see if I can get some better results from the aluminum mold. In an ideal world this would be an iron or brass mold though, even if it was only a 4-banger then. Sigh, aluminum...

[trixter]

Grab the Comet, and a toothbrush, and HOT water and scrub the inside of the mold untill your fingers hurt. Do a casting session and do it again. I have been using synthetic 2 stroke oil and very little of it to lube the mold. It seems that I can go about 250 boolits, then I have to shut down and let it cool and Comet it. Cast as fast as you are comfortable with. I use a bottom pour pot and I go very quickly; fill, cut sprue asap, pop open mold, drop boolits, slap it closed and repeat. I too hold the mold corner in the hot lead 675deg, for a count of 60; 1 mississippi, etc. Keep practicing, it will come.

[Lunarphase]

Gotta bump this back to top.
So much great info here. I've had the same issue with wrinkled boolits. I'm using (2) different 6 cav' AL. RanchDog molds, and pouring quickly. I have been finding the bright shiny boolits have the issues, not all but a great number, and the frosted boolits look great. I've had the temp' mostly at 600-650 deg, I think the frosted boolits were when the temp was higher. I'm casting with "hardball" alloy, and water quenching.
I'm gunna try 700 deg to see how that works out. I think my problem is with melt temp not mold temp', but I'm new at casting I can't be sure.
I'm so thankfull for this site and all the info/knowlege available through you guys.

Many thanks!
Lunar

[Texantothecore]

Try more heating of the mold and faster cycle rate. The frosted bullets may be slightly smaller because of the higher. A bit of tin might help too.

[Lunarphase]

I cast some more tonight with the temp at 700-725 Deg. and got MUCH better results. I still had some wrinkled ones but I think they were cast at the begining when the mold wasn't up to temp.

Thanks!
Lunar

[MtGun44]

Standard answer #1: Too cool and/or too dirty.

Next!

:bigsmyl2:


Bill

[jlaudio29]

Is the lead coming out nice a smooth? i ladle poor and the only time i see wrinkle bullets is if i goof on the poor and have sorta a sputter a hicup in the stream as its pooring in....

[prs]

and waiting 6 to 8 seconds after spru frosts is waiting too long.... I like 2 to 3 seconds for an easy spru cut without any mallet and especially with the lever on 6 banger. I wait another few seconds for boolits to fully freeze.

I opened a new Lee mold yesterday and it was the oiliest new mold I have ever received. Even after using Dawn and toothbrush and rinsing, I got lousy fill-out if TK bands and those darn worm tracks on about 20% of drops even with hot mold. Just have to clean again next time. The older a mold gets, the more I like it.

prs

[Gliden07]

I thought I read if you used to much lube to prep the mold you would get wrinkled bullets too? Could that be a possible problem? I don't know just throwing that out. I'd like to know too being new to this!!

[jethunter]

I've found most of my casting problems are mould temperature related, usually being too low. You're getting close when the sprue lube starts smoking. If the lube isn't getting hot enough to burn off then your mould is probably too cold.

Preheating the mould until it's smoking hot and then casting fast is probably going to fix your wrinkles. Pouring a larger sprue will help heat up the mould as more lead = more heat transfer from the pot to the mould.

Some of my moulds will need to have 40-50 boolits run through them fast to get them up to heat. Don't waste time inspecting boolits because that just lets the mould cool off again. Cast, cast, cast. Count to 2 after the sprue hardens and get more lead into it as quickly as you can. Aluminum 2C moulds under .40 cal seem to be the most problem for me to get warm enough to work well.

[FergusonTO35]

Most of my wrinkling problems have come from the lube for the alignment blocks and sprue cutter getting in the cavities. I always clean really well with brake cleaner then apply a tiny, almost invisible amount of lube to the parts which need it.

[Awsar]

well glad to see someone else had same problem as me . been reading alot and just started casting ,first batch same as yours-more reading get things hotter wow works better .
Thank you to all the great people on this site you have helped me alot .

[skud007]

and waiting 6 to 8 seconds after spru frosts is waiting too long.... I like 2 to 3 seconds for an easy spru cut without any mallet and especially with the lever on 6 banger. I wait another few seconds for boolits to fully freeze.

I opened a new Lee mold yesterday and it was the oiliest new mold I have ever received. Even after using Dawn and toothbrush and rinsing, I got lousy fill-out if TK bands and those darn worm tracks on about 20% of drops even with hot mold. Just have to clean again next time. The older a mold gets, the more I like it.

prs

This^^^^^ I know this is an old post, but I too was getting wrinkled bullets. Mold was heated up and pouring at temps of 730-750. Still wrinkled boolits. After the the spru frosted I was cutting and dropping the boolits right away. This method was ok for my smaller calibers (9mm, 30-30, 357), but for my 45 I found that if after the spru was cut, I let the the boolits freeze a few seconds later and then drop them no more wrinkles.

[44Blam]

I would say there's probably some machine oil. I have a little brush that I put Dawn on and really clean/rinse my molds before first use. I usually cast 4 or 5 drops in all cavities very quickly to get the mold up to temp and then throw it all back in the pot. Then I fall into the cadence for the mold once it's dropping good boolits.
Get a thermometer - that way you don't cook off all your tin! ;) If the surface starts looking kind of yellow rainbowy, your oxidizing your alloy...

I have a little lee pot and I find that I put it on full blast to melt my lead and then I turn it down to about 3 which generally gives me just under 700 degress. That seems to really help the lead fill out especially if I'm casting HPs.

Keep at it, you'll end up saving enough money to shoot more!

[Froogal]

Sometimes, that bottom pour spout gets slightly plugged and then the flow is not sufficient to get a good fill. I keep a small diameter wire close at hand for an occassional reaming.

[robg]

Clean mold ,run pot hotter and maybe add a little tin .make sure the spout of the pot is clear so it pours well.I usually let the first fill sit in the mold for a few minutes to get it reasonably warm .

[Burnt Fingers]

Clean the mold with hot water and Dawn, use a toothbrush to scrub it.

Heat cycle it three times on a hot plate.

Lightly smoke the cavities.

Preheat the mold on a hot plate.