danger will robinson?????

[XWrench3]

so, i know this may sound dangerous, but i can not help thinking about this. it is also the reason i am asking before i just go do and then regret it! it seems like shooting cast boolits = less pressure with any given load. so why would it not be safe to shoot a cast boolit of the same weight at the same powder and charge that has proved sucsessful with "j" bullets? i realize there may be leading issues, but since i already have some very good loads worked up for my 300 mag, and none of the loads i have come across can even come close to those. the boolits are gas checked water dropped lino alloys, so it is not like they are soft. i also know that any change will = a new load just because you are changing one thing. is there a safety issue using such a load (71g of IMR4831) with a (180g) cast boolit?

[Wayne Smith]

You need to think of the relative strength of even a 'hard' lead alloy and the strength of gliding metal. Two very different metals and have extremely different strengths. The presence of a gas check will not prevent stripping at those speeds and pressures. Your boolit will not be able to stand the strain and slip in the rifling, thus stripping.

However, you don't have to believe me. Just get ready for cleaning out some significant leading. If you do this, and I have shot wdww to 2300fps with no problem so I won't rule it out completely, I would suggest that you start at the lowest condom load for that weight and powder and try it. If you get any accuracy without leading then step up to the next, and on until you loose accuracy or get significant leading.

Safety issue - no. You are right there. Making extra work for yourself, probably.

[madsenshooter]

About the only safety issue would be having a good backstop, cause at 50,000psi, which your jacketed bullet of the same weight would produce with 71gr of IMR 4831, who knows where that lead bullet is going to go, somewhere in the neighborhood I'm sure. But that's pretty high pressure even for lino. Since the bullet's not going to impact in exactly the same spot as your jacketed bullet anyway, why not reduce the load a bit more to get pressures that the lino will stand. I'm sure there's some Win Mag shooters on here that can tell you just how much to reduce it to make a usable load. You are correct however when you say your cast bullet will produce lower pressure, I just can't say how much lower.

[Char-Gar]

go ahead and do it..that is how you learn.

[oscarflytyer]

Might also look at some of the Hodgden Reduced/Youth load data for the 300 WM. It is still J bullet data, but is much lower in velocity and pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

Realizing the cast bullet does not have a jacket to contain it and hold it basically in form;

Are you cast bullets perfectly balanced?

Are they going to stay balanced as they are accellerated down the bore with such loads?

Cast bullets, even those as "hard" as yours, can easily be deformed under such acceleration. This creates a situation where the center of gravity is no longer in the center of form. A bullet that laterally unbalanced as such will be forced to conform while in the barrel and it's center of mass will rotate around its geometric center. However, when free of the barrel the bullet will move in the direction that the mass center had at muzzle exit. The geometric center will begin to revolve around the center of mass and it will depart at an angle to the bore. At 220 - 230,000 RPM (10" twist at 3200 fps or so) the centrafugal force will be acting fierce on that cast bullets inbalances. The result will be an outward or radial acceleration from the intended flight path causing the bullet to rotate in al constantly growing hilix. In simpler terms; the group expansion is non linier as range increases or accuracy gets progressively worse.

So, no real safety issue at all. Give it a try and let us know how the results are at say 100 yard minimum, preferably 200 yards with 5 shot groups. One last question; haven't you wondered why none of the rest of use aren't shooting such loads with cast bullets in 300 magnums?

Larry Gibson

[bearcove]

Paper patching it might help avoid cleaning out all that lead in your barrel. Don't know if you can push it that hard, but you shouldn't have saftey issues. I'm not confirming your load is safe but I also use J data for loading cast to higher pressures than "traditional" in Lyman data and other sources.

Sometimes it even works.

Ken Water's pet loads has load data for reduced loads that bridge the gap some.

[Bret4207]

I suggest you lay in a good supply of 4/0 steel wool and some bore brushes! Seriously, if you were talking a 45/70 or 30-30, a 38 Special or even a 44 mag it would be one thing. When you get into the "high intensity cartridges", to use a dated term, you tend to surpass common lead alloys strength limits. It would take a perfectly fitted, perfectly balanced and aligned boolit with a whole bunch of luck added and one heck of a lube to push into 300 mag territory. You might be able to do it in a cast friendly rifle, but it'll take some work and research.

[XWrench3]

this is EXACTLY why i come here to ask questions! like normal, i was so caught up in thinking about the safety issue, that i did not begin to think about the rest of the stuff. i had thought about the paper patch thing, but i do not have a 30 caliber paper patch mold. or even a smaller mold that i might be able to patch up to 30 cal. as far as boolits being PERFECTLY BALANCED, i am not sure that any boolit is that. to be honest, i am not sure even match jacketed bullets are PERFECTLY balanced. they, i am sure, are very close, but perfection is something that neither man or machine is not very good at.

[btroj]

Like Chargar said, it isn't dangerous so give it a shot. This is how you learn. Bret was right about needing a way to remove leading in case it doesn't go well.
Trying is the best way to learn. Leading isn't a sign of failure, it is a sign that you are pushing the envelope.

[nanuk]

use the best lube you have

perhaps you can research Oven HT temps and times to get the hardest you can out of it.

for sizing, I wonder what would work the best? 0.001 over groove?

at that load level, would IMR4831 be considered "Fast"? perhaps a slower powder would help you a bit. the slower powder may also act like a filler somewhat.

this will be an interesting experiment.

[MtGun44]

Work up to it, like anything else. You may get farther than you think, but at some
point accuracy will go to the shotgun pattern mode and the fun drops off quite a
lot at that point.

Bill

[leadman]

I have shot 200gr cast in a 30-06 at 2,600fps with sucess. Groups were in the 1" to 1 1/2" range at 100 yards. After 5 shots or so thew bore needed to be brushed to remove the "debris".
Any additional velocity would destroy the accuracy and lead the bore. The boolits were cast of linotype and gas checked.
It will be interesting to see your results.

[lwknight]

I think that you will skid the riflings and the bullet will never spin up to stablizing RPM and that you will be lucky to hit a 4'X8' sheet of plywood at 50 yards .

Just my guess. LOL!

[runfiverun]

if the first one hits the paper try another.
then let the gun sit till it is room/range temperature before trying again.
heat will not help you....
be aware that a tight [more than .002] fitting nose may increase bullet pull and increase pressure..

[frkelly74]

I was shooting nice groups with my 7mm Mauser with a reduced load and did try what the O.P. is suggesting, i.e. full charge of 4064 under a cast 140 gr boolit. I loaded 20 and shot 5. All the noise and fury of a jacketed load but none of the accuracy was the result, and also none of the accuracy of the nice reduced load I had been using. So I pulled the other 15 and was satisfied that it wasn't a very good idea. I did not get too much leading from the 5 shots fortunately.

[XWrench3]

well, i think i will start out with the starting load (53.0g) for a 30-06 with this powder, and work up until i start to get either a loss of accuracy, or lead in the barrel. in a 30-06 case that should push it out in the vacinity of 2560 fps, in the larger magnum case i am sure i will loose 300-400 fps.

[bearcove]

I don't know about that load. A powder with medium burn rate is what I have data for.

51.0 gr of IMR4320 with a 180 gr gave 2442 fps. 3031 or 4198 would also work.

[mroliver77]

I have pushed the 30-06 to factory specs. There was no issue with leading whatsoever. Accuracy was dismal at best! My .22 Hornet NEF will shoot the Lyman 224415 @ 2450 with great accuracy.

Slow powder and filler work for me to get the higher velocities.

If you do some searching there are some threads about shooting high velocity cast. Veral Smiths(LBT) book is a good study on the subject.

After playing with it I realized I have very little need of high speed cast boolits. Speed helps very little shooting paper. A 150gr boolit @ 1800fps kills deer very well at ranges one normally shoots deer at. Speed does increase "Point blank range." If I was going after antelope or such and planned on long range shots I would use a condom and get-r-done.

But for giggles or knowledge sake it is interesting.
J

[geargnasher]

+1 Mroliver, SLOW powder, some compacting filler of some sort, and premium lube. I have made the .30-'06 do some pretty amazing things, but it was an exercise in insane minutia.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

Depending on the caliber/pressure rating/boolit weight/etc. you can sometimes shoot cast boolits faster than jacketed boolits. In the case of a low pressure pistol cartridge, the limiting factor for the powder charge with a jacketed bullet is likely pressure. A softer cast boolit might provide less resistance than a jacketed bullet & therefore may provide a higher muzzle velocity with the same powder charge. If the velocity produced is within the normal operating range of that lead alloy, you may actually get better, more powerful downrange results from a lead boolit of the same weight.

When you look at the high pressure fast movers, the story is different. It's not so easy to get good results at the high end from cast & in some situations it may not be safe to try. Now, I say not so easy, rather than saying can't be done, because In the past several years I've learned to make cast boolits do things that I thought could not be done based on what I used to read in "reliable" loading manuals. The old wives' tale about not being able to shoot cast above 1,000fps has been proven totally false by almost every member of this board.

I have managed to get a .223 to shoot over 3,000fps with no leading in the barrel, but above 2,400fps, accuracy becomes more & more difficult to obtain. 90+% of my 3,000fps boolits were off the paper at 50 yards. With better alloy, better sorting, more attention to detail & a few other tricks, I may be able to dial them in better & get good results at those high speeds, but I haven't yet invested the time to try all the options that I can think of, so I don't know.

Some board members believe that after a certain RPM, accuracy becomes a fleeting endeavor. I have yet to prove or disprove that theory to my personal satisfaction. For me, that is still one of many open questions. The open questions are what keeps this stuff interesting for me.

When I am starting to develop a new high performance cast load for a rifle caliber, I usually start with something that I expect to be in the 1,800-2,000fps range & if all looks good there, then I try to kick it up a notch. I still also load a lot of cast rifle boolits down around 1,200-1,600fps for target/plinking/fun shooting.

I have found Lyman Super Moly lube to be the best leading preventative for me when trying to reach the very highest speeds. The moly stuff is a mess to work with though. The carnuba red lubes (like the one from White Label Lube) also give good performance at the high end & are much more friendly to work with.