The original 30-30 load...

[shooter2]

Not sure where to post this question, but here goes anyway. What was the original 30-30 load?
I have a friend, Nels, that has his fathers 1894 Winchester, 30-30 rifle. It has a 30" barrel and is grey all over, but has a mint bore and has been lovingly used for over a century. Nels still goes back home to WV to hunt with the family in the fall. The serial number indicates it was shipped in 1895 which was the first year. I was hoping to build him some original ammo as a present. TIA...

[KCSO]

The earliest loading I have found is from 1900 and is a 165 gr bullet backed by 28.0 (best I could scrape out) grains of powder. From a 20" carbine these chronographed a 1975 fps. These were Western Tool and Copper. The 170 at 2000 was the intended original load as faras I know. I will look in M($ book tonight and see what it says.

[w30wcf]

shooter 2,

According to an 1895 Winchester catalog, the original factory loading was a 160 gr. "metal patched" (jacketed) bullet @ 1,970 f.p.s. Fortunately I have a box of some early Winchester Cartridges with this 160 gr. bullet. I have dissected a few of these and they were loaded with 30 grs. of smokeless powder.

Marlin's 1897 catalog shows both the 160gr. and 170 gr. bullets at 2,000 f.p.s.

I have found that 30 grs. of either 4064, RL15, or Varget will duplicate the original ballistics with a 170 gr. bullet.

KCSO,
THank you for sharing the info about that early Western Brand Cartridge you dissected.

w30wcf

[carpetman]

It is my understanding that 30-30 means .30 cal and 30 grains of blackpowder.

[KCSO]

Carpetman
The 30-30 and 30-40 were never loaded factory with black. The Ctg designation is merely a holdover from blackpowder nomenclature. In fact the 32 Special was designed just so black powder shooters would have something to go bang in their new 94's. The original M94 was introduced in October of 1894 in 38-55 and 32-40 because of problems with the new smokless round and the first 94 30-30's didn't come out till 1895. My attempts to feed black into a 30-30 case have been dismal failures so far. The gun will foul out in three shots and by 5 the bullets are stripping. In addition the velovity is about 1450 so you just a soon use the 32-40 which will handle black. The most interesting thing to me is how quick the 30-30 caught on Winchester made and sold about 100,000 guns in less than 10 years if I remember right.

[w30wcf]

Carpetman,

I will second what KCSO has indicated. A fellow I know who has written 2 books on W.R.A CO. Headstamps has information regarding the actual powders used in testing the .30 W.C.F. back in 1895. All were smokeless powders ...... none were black.

If it were to be a black powder cartridge it would have been called .30-42 or something similar since that is close to the amount of blackpowder the case will hold.

KCSO,
I have also tried b.p. in the .30-30 (Early Marlin catalogs did indicate that black powder could be used in reloading the .30-30). I used Swiss B.P. since according to b.p. experts that is the closest equivalent we have to the much refined b.p.'s of the late 1800's which burned with a higher moisture content and thus kept the fouling soft. Accuracy was not too bad in a 10 round string. Group size @50 yards was double (2") what the gun would average with smokeless but in the late 1800's- early 1900's such a load would provide a family well from nature's meat supply.

I used a 160 gr. LBT bullet lubed with SPGand 42 grs. of Swiss 3F ignited by a Rem 2 1/2 pistol primer. Velocity was 1,580 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[floodgate]

It is my understanding that 30-30 means .30 cal and 30 grains of blackpowder.

Ray, KCSO is right, those were correct load designations for the early smokeless powders. It is MOST interesting that w30wcf's "modern" 4064, etc. loads duplicate these loadings safely! [I don't think the .25-35 was ever loaded with 35 grs., though; maybe that was just factory "hype" to make it look faster.] Interestingly, the old 220-gr. RN .30-'03 load for the first Springfields was occasionally listed as ".30-45" (which also checks out in old and new loading tables) and I have an old Ideal #2 de- and re-capper so marked. This came up on another board and someone - I think it was our buddy the Coronel - leapt all over us, saying we were inducing other reloaders to try dangerous smokeless loads by using these designations. I asked how he felt about the .250-3000 (man! wouldn't THAT eat up a can of powder fast!?!), but we never heard back. floodgate

[floodgate]

Jack, The reprint 1903 Savage catalog I just got lists several loadings with full-patch, softnose and gallery bullet, including a lead-bullet BP load in their own .303 Savage factory ammunition. The facing page lists most of the same loads for the .30-30, but NO BP load. Guess I'll have to try some "holy black" in my 1920-ish 99 lightweight in .303. floodgate

[carpetman]

w30wcf---if the 30 doesnt stand for 30 grains of blackpowder,what you think it stood for? Way too fast for velocity. Then again,could have been invented by Dan Thirty.

[BruceB]

Well, Ray, if you check a JACKETED-bullet loading manual (I don't look at them very often, either) you'll find that the full-power 170-grain .30-30 loads with the normal mid-speed powders run about...thirty grains, plus or minus one or two. And, if you do likewise for .30-40 Krag loads with the original-weight bullets (220 grains), there again the normal powder charges with the most-suitable powder types for the cartridge are in the 40 grain area.

The numbering system (.30-30 and .30-40) is a holdover from blackpowder days, but "30" and "40" refer to SMOKELESS loads for these old fellers.

I strongly suspect that it was common usage among shooters/reloaders that actually gave rise to these designations. The .30-30 started out being sold as the ".30 Winchester Center Fire" or .30 WCF, and the Krag cartridge was originally designated ".30 U.S. Government". I'd bet that the advent of ANOTHER government .30-caliber sped-up the name change for the Krag, although there were at least several names used for the new .30 '03/ '06, such as ".30 Government '06" among others.

It was just a case of people using a type of terminology with which they felt comfortable.

[mike in co]

just pulled my nose out of the NRA handloading book.... .30-30, .30-40....ALL refer to the original intended load of GRAINS OF SMOKELESS powder....a designation carry over from black powder days...

[Tom W.]

If I'm not badly mistaken, the 30/30 was the first factory loaded commercial smokeless powder cartridge. The designation was indeed a holdover from the current (at that time) way that most of the BP cartridges in existence were labeled. But the designation was for .30 caliber with 30 grains of smokeless powder.

[w30wcf]

carpetman,

As I had mentioned "Fortunately I have a box of some early Winchester Cartridges with this 160 gr. bullet. I have dissected a few of these and they were loaded with 30 grs. of smokeless powder."

In addition, interestingly, there was a folded up Winchester smokeless powder guide in this old box of cartridges. The powder and charge weight shown for the .30 W.C.F. was 30 grains of DuPont .30 Caliber Smokeless.

The early name for the .30-30 was .30-30 MARLIN SMOKELESS and came from U.M.C. (Union Metallic Cartridge Co.) / Marlin since they apparently couldn't use the .30 W.C.F. name. As others have mentioned, both the .30-30 & .30-40 were smokeless cartridges using the b.p. designation.

From an early 1900 Hercules powder phamplet: The name .30-30 followed the prevailing practice of that period where the first number designated the caliber in inches and the second number the powder charge in grains. In this case, however, the second number denoted the charge in grains of smokeless powder used rather than black powder as with such cartridges as the .32-40, .38-55, .45-70, .45-90, etc.

To add to my previous statement regarding 30 grains of 4064, RL15 and Varget being in the velocity range of the original loading, here is data taken from the 26" barrel of my 1894-1994 Centennial Rifle.
Bullet: 170 gr. Remington
Primer: CCI 200
Brass: Winchester
Powder Charge: 30 grains
4064 - 1,997 f.p.s.
RL15 - 1,981 f.p.s.
Varget - 1,962 f.p.s.


floodgate,

Thanks for the b.p. info regarding the factory .303 Savage b.p. cartridge. If memory serves me correctly, I believe they used a paper patched bullet (?).

With regards to the .25-35, I'm convinced the -35 stands for the case capacity. I once dissected two early W.R.A. CO. headstamped cartridges and if memory serves me correctly they contained 27 grs. of smokeless. By pouring powder into the 2nd case from the first one until it was full then weighed the charge ........ yep.........you guessed it ...... 35 grs.

The same is true with the .38-55. 48 grs. was the factory b.p. load. 55 grs. filled the case.

SIncerely,
w30wcf

[carpetman]

Somehow I had it in my mind it was 30 grains blackpowder,glad this came up. I know how a few got their names and some I'm confused about---like .244 Rem and .243 Win--would seem one is incorrect. .222 and .223 and a few other .22 Im confused on. I know the 250-3000 the 3000 stood for the unheard of in those days velocity of 3000fps. I know peoples names get tacked on .257 Roberts and .35 Whelen. For the most part,straightforward stuff. But things will get confusing when they start naming them 1 Starmetal. This will be the designation for any gun that ever shoots a one hole group. How will we ever know which dies to order? Can be anything from a .25ACP to a 416 Rigby.(Im sure he has shot 100 yard one-holers with his .25Raven ACP)

[wills]

We need a good empiricist to load up a .30-06 with six grains of FFG, shoot a few groups and report back on the results.

[StanDahl]

We need a good empiricist to load up a .30-06 with six grains of FFG, shoot a few groups and report back on the results.

Just to take the fun out of the last post, I should point out that the Association of Bored Lawyers would recommend doing just that and then giving them a call.

Said empiricist, (aka the Plaintiff), should be able to peek down the bore before firing off the next shot. Using a round ball with that load might prevent future legal exercises, as long as the danger of having a whole lot of air space in a bp loading is as overrated as I have been told it is.

All of this could have been avoided if Wills had remembered to use one of the often used and legally binding disclaimers: [ ;) ], [bg], [vbg], [bfg] or [duh].

Now can I be the pc moderator? How much do I get paid?
Stan ;)

[wills]

Just to take the fun out of the last post, I should point out that the Association of Bored Lawyers would recommend doing just that and then giving them a call.

Said empiricist, (aka the Plaintiff), should be able to peek down the bore before firing off the next shot. Using a round ball with that load might prevent future legal exercises, as long as the danger of having a whole lot of air space in a bp loading is as overrated as I have been told it is.

All of this could have been avoided if Wills had remembered to use one of the often used and legally binding disclaimers: [ ;) ], [bg], [vbg], [bfg] or [duh].

Now can I be the pc moderator? How much do I get paid?
Stan ;)

If and or but uneless except.

[Paul B]

w30WCF said, "The early name for the .30-30 was .30-30 MARLIN SMOKELESS and came from U.M.C. (Union Metallic Cartridge Co.) / Marlin since they apparently couldn't use the .30 W.C.F. name. As others have mentioned, both the .30-30 & .30-40 were smokeless cartridges using the b.p. designation."

It's my understanding the Marlin used the 30-30 designation, because they felt using .30 WCF would be like giving Winchester free advertising. Savage felt the same way on the M-99s chambered to the .30 WCF. Seems like they were not the only ones. When S&W brought out the .38 S&W cartridge, Colt brought the same thing out, added about one or two grains of black powder, flattened the nose slightly and called it the .38 Colt New Police. They were interchangable.The 32 WCF, 38 WCF and 44 WCF were all changed to 32-20. 38-40 and 44-40 by companies not wanting to give Big "W" free advertising.
In this day and age, that all sounds kind of dumb, but I guess it was really serious business back then.
What I did find interesting was the rifle in question has a 30" barrel. Was this a special order rifle or just improper measurement? If it is in fact a true 30" barrel, that rifle has some potentially serious collector value. I'm surprised no one brought that up.
Paul B.

[jethrow strait]

Interesting post Paul! Didn't I show you my Remington Model 8, which dated from c.1915, and had "30-30 Rem" stamped on the top of the receiver just behind the loading port? Afraid it's too late now though, cause I just got done dumping it at Murphy's. Apparently some flyboy from the base got all excited about it thinking it was the Original version of the new 6.8SPU AR16 round----30 Rem being the parent case of same. jethrow

[floodgate]

jethrow:

Yep! The first Model 8's in those calibers WERE marked "25-35 Remington" and "30-30 Remington", even though they were the straightened RIMLESS cases. Must have caused endless confusion for the early shooters before WW I. Flayderman still shows the old Standard Arms Co. semiautos and pumps as made for "25-35, .30-30 and 35 Rem." even though they were never made for the rimmed versions, and wouldn't feed them if they were loaded into them. Has anyone seen an ammo box or individual case so marked, but with the rimless rounds?

floodgate

[J Miller]

To add to my previous statement regarding 30 grains of 4064, RL15 and Varget being in the velocity range of the original loading, here is data taken from the 26" barrel of my 1894-1994 Centennial Rifle.
Bullet: 170 gr. Remington
Primer: CCI 200
Brass: Winchester
Powder Charge: 30 grains
4064 - 1,997 f.p.s.
RL15 - 1,981 f.p.s.
Varget - 1,962 f.p.s.

John,
Have you chronographed these loads from a 20" carbine or a 16" trapper. I'm not lucky enough to have a rifle yet. But I AM going to try these loads in my Trapper and carbine.

Joe ~aka~ J Miller everywhere

[Paul B]

Jethrow. YUP! You even let me shoot it.
Paul B.

[w30wcf]

Joe,

I have not clocked them from any barrel length other than 26". The original .30 W.C.F. cartridge velocity was taken from that length barrel and I wanted to come as close as possible in duplicating the ballistics with 30 grs. of powder. I would estimate that about 100 f.p.s. would be lost in a 20" barrel.

w30wcf