This is truly a comedy of errors... AKA A Sad Story

[Jim_Fleming]

This is a bit of a silly story. Some of you will find it rather boring. Not to worry enjoy, move on if you don't care to read my silly story. If you prefer, you might choose to call it a comedy of errors...

There are those among you who will appreciate the irony in my story.

"Hello I'm Jim Fleming, and I am a bullet caster." Yes I've plagiarized the AA greeting but I can't help myself! I enjoy shooting so much, I enjoy Reloading so much, that it just naturally follows I must enjoy Casting!

A project that's been in the making for several years came to fruition about 14 months ago. I believe in, when doing things I try to do them in a BIG WAY!

What I'm beating around the bush is, about 14 months ago I used some materials that I'd been holding onto for many years to make a wheel weight smelting pot. A BIG one! I'd been given a nice clean piece of 8" in diameter pipe years ago. It was cut nice and square so as to facilitate welding onto a good smooth bottom piece. Meanwhile, I'd also been holding onto a nice disc of cast iron about 10" in diameter. I think it was from a floor lamp stand. Etc.

About 14 months ago I got off my behind and put that nice smooth piece of cast iron up in a lathe and cut an 8" by about .250" recess into the cast iron bottom. Set the 8" piece of pipe into it. Made sure it fit nice and squarely into the bottom and TIG welded the two pieces together! Presto, Changeo! I thought fruition!

Meanwhile I neglected to tell you about the small hole drilled through the cast iron plate that was used to run the electrical wires for power to the bulb... At the time I thought ahhh no big deal! I'll just drill and tap it 1/2-13 NC thread, drive a nice short bolt into it, jam it tight, cut off the head file it flat, and do the same for the other side, file the stub of bolt sticking out down flat also. It'll never leak!

Wrong...

At first it really didn't leak, much... until the third or fourth pot of molten lead had been smelted. By now I'd processed between 450-600 pounds of lead! Doing great, I thought.

I started up the fifth pot a while back. The darn thing leaked so badly, after setting around, that it dripped down into the burner of my turkey fryer so much that the flames were snuffed out!

Here it had developed a crack in the cast iron bottom. About 2" long and fairly noticeable. Molten lead dribbled right thru it! UGH!

Much discouraged I brought the Great Lead Pot into work and set about repairing said crack. I drilled holes partially through the iron bottom, and then set about welding the cursed crack. You have to understand the nature of the work I do on a daily basis. I weld cast iron. Usually with a spray welding torch. No preheating, no real preparation other than to grind back the damaged area until I get fresh clean metal.

However, what I didn't take into account was the extremely inferior quality of the cast iron plate I used. I also didn't take into account the shape of the plate versus the mould equipment I repair daily. Anyway I welded up than infernal crack! Spray welded it to be exact. It didn't work ...

A few days ago, as of this writing, I tried smelting wheel weights again. I filled the pot with wheel weights and fired up the turkey fryer. About the time I had the lead starting to get good and hot, I hear the fryer start to sputter! It almost went out because of the lead drippings, similar in appearance to candle wax drippings. Here I had a gob of about 7 pounds of lead right in the burner. Blinking Hades! I was frustrated!

I had to think quickly to be sure. Fortunately I was up out behind my barn, which I use as a storage building as well as my Reloading Room. We have accumulated a few of the metal tins that popcorn comes in around Christmas time. I grabbed one these poor cans, with ill intention towards that tin can. Attached two six inch "C" clamps onto the sides of my hot pot, and dumped about 50 pounds of molten lead, dirt, and melted off clips into that poor popcorn tin!

But now I’m madder than a wet hen. But still I must not forget that I'm handling hot lead and a hot pot to be sure!

Next I had to clean the hot lead out of the turkey fryer. Fortunately, I have a 150,000 BTU propane torch and melted out the lead out of the flame distributor easily. Unfortunately I had to melt that gob of lead right into that poor popcorn tin. So I still have one heckuva daggone mess to clean up. By the time I'm done with that poor popcorn tin and the 150,000 BTU torch there won't be much left.

Back to the lead pot story. So again I take the lead pot to work, this time to remove the cast iron bottom that I had welded on. Then I procured a piece of mild steel that I had intended to weld on. It took me 1.5 hours to cut the iron bottom off. It only took me a half hour to TIG weld the new piece on.

Now I have to start from scratch... Melt several pounds of lead in the pot, watch for leaks... Mark the leaks, if any, and then drain the pot, let the pot cool, and then weld up the darn leaks.

[canyon-ghost]

I work in a welding shop, factory mig welder. Yes, I know the feeling! Now if you had a mig wire feeder with the mild steel, you could just run a weld around it and forget the leaks.

I build hydraulic and fuel tanks, whew, do I know what you mean.

Ron

[roysha]

Every time I see your name I want to ask you this question but by the time I finish the thread, if it has more than 2 posts (if you get my drift), I forget.

My question is; are you the same Jim Fleming that posts on Winepress? Just curious. I haven't been over there for quite sometime although I have been in contact with CrackedCork because of out mutual interest in Elderberry Wine.

In regard to your post, I believe that comes under Murphy's Law #1.

[Mk42gunner]

Jim,

I am not anywhere close to being the talented weldor that you are; but when I built my smelting pot, I tested it with water first. Much easier than finding a leak with melted lead.

I ran a bead around the inside and outside with 6010 rod, ground down what looked bad, and made another pass. No leaks so far.

Robert

[Jim_Fleming]

Roy, thank you sir.

Very observant of you. Yes, I'm the same geek that used to post a lot on WinePress.

I have eased off, quite a bit lately. No time it seems. I've got a couple of batches of wine still going, right now, in my basement. Strawberry and Banana. But I digress from my post and thread.

Thanks again, sir!!! :-)



Every time I see your name I want to ask you this question but by the time I finish the thread, if it has more than 2 posts (if you get my drift), I forget.

My question is; are you the same Jim Fleming that posts on Winepress? Just curious. I haven't been over there for quite sometime although I have been in contact with CrackedCork because of out mutual interest in Elderberry Wine.

In regard to your post, I believe that comes under Murphy's Law #1.



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[Jim_Fleming]

Robert, you're quite right. Water is a heckuva lot easier to use.




Jim,

I am not anywhere close to being the talented weldor that you are; but when I built my smelting pot, I tested it with water first. Much easier than finding a leak with melted lead.

I ran a bead around the inside and outside with 6010 rod, ground down what looked bad, and made another pass. No leaks so far.

Robert



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[Jim_Fleming]

Ron, you're quite perceptive! Actually I didn't use a stick weld method either time. I TIG welded the pot both times. Nor did I use mild steel rod. I used a rod called Cronatron, by brand name. It's an aluminum bronze alloy we have had a LOT of good luck with here in the plant.

I'm thinking about testing the pot today. I'll be sure and report back my results here.

J.



I work in a welding shop, factory mig welder. Yes, I know the feeling! Now if you had a mig wire feeder with the mild steel, you could just run a weld around it and forget the leaks.

I build hydraulic and fuel tanks, whew, do I know what you mean.

Ron



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[Jim_Fleming]

Well, folks, I did a water test today, I put about 1.5 inches of water in the pot, and after about 90 minutes I found two leaks... Absolutely minute leaks... I got about 5 drops of leakage, (I'm guessing!) from both holes, together... I'd say the pot's ready for the next test... Melt about 1.0 - 1.5 inches of lead into it, and see what happens...

Comments?





I'm thinking about testing the pot today. I'll be sure and report back my results here.

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[Jim_Fleming]

After due consideration, I've decided not to take the risk and I'm going to weld up the two minute leaks that I've discovered.

After all, heating metal causes the metal to expand. Expansion of a small hole very likely will just make a bigger hole. Which very likely will make that durn pot leak molten lead. Ugh!



Well, folks, I did a water test today, I put about 1.5 inches of water in the pot, and after about 90 minutes I found two leaks... Absolutely minute leaks... I got about 5 drops of leakage, (I'm guessing!) from both holes, together... I'd say the pot's ready for the next test... Melt about 1.0 - 1.5 inches of lead into it, and see what happens...

Comments?



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[uscra112]

This sounds to me like a good place to apply the old principle of scrap it and start over ! Your base plate seems to be more air than metal :-P

[Jim_Fleming]

Not quite yet. I honestly think it's going to work well this time.

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[geargnasher]

Jim, I enjoyed and empathized with your story, it reminds me of some of my own comedies.

I thought you had to be crazy when I first read the part about marrying the (no doubt low-quality) cast iron to steel pipe. I'm a "farm grade" welder myself, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that only special people can weld dissimilar metals and have them stay together under heat and stress. Reminds me of a "Junkyard Wars" program I saw where the task was to build a car that would run on a standard-gauge railroad, then a timed race would determine the winner. One team MiG-welded some cast-iron brake rotors to some steel wheels so the rotor flange would ride on the inside of the track. The welds broke after about two feet of travel, rendering the car immobile. I had to laugh when I first saw them decide to use them. A MiG welder isn't a hot-glue gun, it won't just stick anything to anything.

I see you used your professional talents ot marry these, but don't you have access to a MiG or SME welder? I have all three, and I've found mild steel is a pain to heliarc because the impurities make little inclusions and bubbles, and LEAKS, even with a good square wave to resonate the puddle. Maybe I'm just a lousy welder, more likely! I do have pretty good luck with clean steel and my MiG, I've made several pipe bumpers and grille guards that doubled as compressed air tanks, only had one leak on one and it should have been obvious, I just didn't look closely enough at that joint. One quick spot weld and it was fixed.

Anyway, hope it works out for you, and I think you've probably already decided against modifying it to bottom pour?

Gear

[Jim_Fleming]

Gear, no I don't have access to a MIG or SME welder. To be honest I don't know what a SME welder is.

Thanks for the kind thoughts, sir. It's appreciated.

No I'm not about to tangle with headaches involved in making a bottom pour pot. I've discussed the idea, elsewhere, about making a scaled up Lee Production Pot. The sealing needle valve alone would have to at LEAST the equivalent of a piece of 3/4" rebar don't you think?

Incidentally as a follow up? I discovered a total of 5 tiny leaks that water had seeped through in 24 hours. Today is Monday, I'm going to touch up the leaks today.

Thanks for your interest Folks!

J.






I see you used your professional talents ot marry these, but don't you have access to a MiG or SME welder? I have all three, and I've found mild steel is a pain to heliarc because the impurities make little inclusions and bubbles, and LEAKS, even with a good square wave to resonate the puddle. Maybe I'm just a lousy welder, more likely! I do have pretty good luck with clean steel and my MiG, I've made several pipe bumpers and grille guards that doubled as compressed air tanks, only had one leak on one and it should have been obvious, I just didn't look closely enough at that joint. One quick spot weld and it was fixed.

Anyway, hope it works out for you, and I think you've probably already decided against modifying it to bottom pour?

Gear



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[D Crockett]

if you find out the pot you made does not work I make smelting pots that hold's 100 lbs + of lead will be happy to make you one for $20 plus shipping I have used my pot going on 15 years now pm me if you want me to make you one D Crockett

[Jim_Fleming]

Thanks, sir, I'll seriously keep that in mind... It's really not all that bad of an offer...

SERIOUSLY...


if you find out the pot you made does not work I make smelting pots that hold's 100 lbs + of lead will be happy to make you one for $20 plus shipping I have used my pot going on 15 years now pm me if you want me to make you one D Crockett

[geargnasher]

Jim, SME is Shielded Metal Electrode, or common "stick" welding AKA SMAW or Shielded Metal Arc Welding, different people use different names for it here in Redneckville!

Gear

[Jim_Fleming]

Well duh!!! :groner:

Stick welding was what I learned first. And yes I have access to a stick welder, (now known as a SME welder), on a daily basis...


To go over some old issues, I don't think that I made clear in the beginning was the fact that the initial crack that developed wasn't due to my welding. It was due to the fact that the lousy grade of cast iron that was used. The crack didn't develop anywhere near the sides of the pot... It was DEAD CENTER on the very bottom...

Right where the most heat is applied.


Follow up: The leaks have all been re-welded... As I sit here and write this I have the pot almost completely full of water and will allow the thing to sit for at least 16-20 hours watching for leaks to develop.

Thanks for your interest folks, truly.





Jim, SME is Shielded Metal Electrode, or common "stick" welding AKA SMAW or Shielded Metal Arc Welding, different people use different names for it here in Redneckville!

Gear

[Jim_Fleming]

I was given a very good suggestion about the pot. Boil the water in it. It's nowhere near 700 degrees, but the metal'll darn sure do some expanding!

Good idea! Thanks Deveraux.

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[Jim_Fleming]

Well folks, I didn't bother to boil the pot. I did completely fill the pot with water, located two more leaks, and decided to completely reweld the entire circumference where the pipe meets the bottom.

I finished that late Friday (22 Jul 11) afternoon, and that's the status for now. I do intend to boil it. But this has been my weekend to work till 7:00-7:00 shift. I don't do much else these kind of weekends.

Jim

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[Armorer]

Jim, my friend...you know that you HAVE to make this pot work right? LOL! You have too much effort invested in it to let it win. I'm rootin for ya man!

[Mk42gunner]

Jim

Good luck on your pot. It has been too hot and humid here for me to want to do anything with hot metal.

I don't even want to cut the grass because radiator on my Kubota blows heat back towards my right foot.

Robert

[Jim_Fleming]

Thanks Gents. Your support means a lot!

Truly! Not to worry, I'll eventually slop enough weld on there that it'll HAVE to seal up! I'm that determined! I wanna start casting bullets! I'm run clean out of 9's. I need to make some 357's & 45 ACP SWC's too!

I'll take a few pix of this contraption, and letcha'll have a gander at it. Now and when the pot's fulla good clean alloyed mixture.

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[West Creek]

Jim

your kiliing me!!! - your story reminds me of a project my dad started about 30 years ago.

Carpenter by trade - tinkerer at heart and frugal to a point he can;t help himself. I think a combination grown into him by parents of the depression erra and a disease I'm guilty at times.

He gets hold of a lincoln gas motor welder worn out and left in his care. Decides to try and weld things and learn to weld on his own. After succesfully welding a few things decides he wants a parts washer and comenses to scrounging and welding a tank. Unfortunatly he scrounges steel welding rod and sense to a point. I watched him weld that sqaure tank - for months - check it for leaks - weld it some more. scrounge more rod. weld some more - grind - check for leaks - weld some more. scounge a little elctric motor and pump - build a plywood cabinet with sheet metal top and lid. Weld some more on the tank - check for leaks - grind and weld some more.

Finally after about a year and half gets the thing leak freel - pumping water and cabinet built. Only to never once use it because he couldn't scrounge any parts washer fluid. That poor cabinet sat in the barn for 20 years before it got junked. He never scrounged any fluid and never once used that machine.

It's a lesson I've carried with me - Never ever try to weld up a tank and I try my best to work at what I know to earn money to buy what I must. Doenst always work but I try.

At last if I ever learn to weld anything - god help me.

[Jim_Fleming]

Thanks West Creek, it's appreciated, sir... you gave me a nice chuckle...! :bigsmyl2:

I think I finally have had success in closing up the little leaks, folks!!! I boiled water in that pot for three solid hours, not a drop of water leaked!

Take a looky see at the attached pix... I am pretty proud of how nice my welding turned out, even if I do have to brag on myself...

I forgot to tell you...

I boiled the water in that pot for three hours. It boiled down to about half full.

I realize minute leaks would evaporate, before discovery. Which is why the next test will be with about an inch of molten lead.

Jim

[Clinebo]

Jim> All I can say is " endeavor to persevere". :bigsmyl2:

[Jim_Fleming]

Clinebo, the next test is this coming week.

Since the boiling water test passed, I am gonna go for the next level, about an inch of lead in the bottom.

That should be the proof in the pudding.



Jim> All I can say is " endeavor to persevere". :bigsmyl2:



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[Suo Gan]

Jim, Howdy and hope all is well with you.

I am having trouble understanding why you aren't using steel for this project? Should be able to scrounge what you need at the steel/pipe dealer for a couple bucks. Just my dos pesos.

Take care

[Jim_Fleming]

Suo Gan, we're doing well. Thanks a million for asking! :-)

This kind of tickles me, that you found me here, thanks for discovering this thread.

Suo, the sides of the pot are in fact mild steel. It was made from a piece of eight (8") inch pipe. Cut to about the same length. I got it for nothing. The walls of the pipe, incidentally, are about 1/4" inch in thickness.

The reason I made the mistake of using cast iron for the bottom, the first time around, was simple economics. I got it for free also. Big mistake.

After the cast iron bottom developed it's rather ugly crack of about 3 inches in length, I knew I would have to use another piece of mild steel plate for the bottom, because I knew it wouldn't crack the way cast iron did.

So to make sure I'm not misunderstood, my large melting pot is made now from mild steel. Sides and bottom.

I calculate it to have a capacity of about 150 pounds of molten lead. But that would be brimming full.

Suo Gan, my friend, with respect? You're way more than welcome to chime in ANY TIME, ANY WHERE, in any thread I have or perhaps participate in.

Thank you, sir!

Jim




Jim, Howdy and hope all is well with you.

I am having trouble understanding why you aren't using steel for this project? Should be able to scrounge what you need at the steel/pipe dealer for a couple bucks. Just my dos pesos.

Take care



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[runfiverun]

wow just wow..
jim iv'e seen your other projects.
but no matter how long you use this pot it'll still be.
pot -3
jim- 1
:lol:

[Jim_Fleming]

R5R! Great seeing you sir!

Yer right ya dawg! About the score! :-)

However, I don't care about the score, it's who wins by melting lead that counts!

In that case it'll be:

Jim - W
Pot - L

LMAO!

run five, glad you found me! How ya been?

Jim




wow just wow..
jim iv'e seen your other projects.
but no matter how long you use this pot it'll still be.
pot -3
jim- 1
:lol:



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[Suo Gan]

Jim, Your welds are so much better than mine they are not in the same ball park! Never learned to TIG. My MIG welds look like bird turds and my arc welds are wide and beefy...like my mother in law!

I like a rendering pot to hold a little over a hundred pounds too.

I am up for a new phone...is the Droid the way to go? I think they are now free with a two year contract.

[Jim_Fleming]

SG, I tried a BlackBerry, I broke the daggoned trackball within 5 months, but from what I understand, they're using something called an optical mouse these days... as in no moving parts.

But that doesn't answer your question, sir... Yeah, I LOVE my Droid... It's a Verizon phone, it's a Motorola Droid, (the original Droid Verizon sold.) NO MOVING PARTS on the outside... It does have a slide out keyboard, but to be honest, I almost never use the keyboard. I don't need it, hardly... I'd say I don't use the keyboard 1 time a month... When it comes time for me to renew, I'll get another Android OS based phone, that's fo' sho'!


SG, re: MIG Welding, it's far easier than stick welding, in my opinion... All you gotta do is set the heat right... MIG is even easier than TIG welding... I recently used a neighbors flux cored wire feed welder, at it's pretty easy, once you get the hang of feeding wire. I liked it, very close to Stick Welding, less slag, and didn't have to worry about feeding the sticks and moving at the same time. Light Wire Feed is good for thin metal, (not quite sheet metal, etc...)

TIG is a lot like the old fashioned Oxy-Acetylene (speeling?) Gas Welding, except a helluva lot easier than Gas Welding... I never, ever, mastered Gas Welding. As I wrote up above, I spray weld cast iron on a daily basis... If I'm not spray welding, I'm TIG welding Aluminum Bronze Moulds... (they're mostly Bronze, and look like Brass) I guess I didn't really think about it when I was learning to TIG, I had to get fairly decent at it, I had to remove the excess and by golly when you're filing, grinding, polishing (filing by hand, and grinding & polishing with air grinders) your own work, you learn to not put on too much material, ASAP! Thanks for the compliment, SG, I admit I'm pretty darned proud of that piece of Government Work... LOL!

Today is Wednesday, 10 Aug 11, it's about 0640... I'm thinking (Good Lord willing and the crick don't rise) that I'm going to finally get around to taking the final test on this pot, and melt about an inch of molten lead in it, this afternoon... If this pot doesn't blow up in my face, (really I mean leak like a daggoned sieve) I'm very likely gonna be rendering, (better word than smelting! Thanks SG!) wheel weights this afternoon... YAHOO! I'm gonna be casting very soon after that!

Jim





Jim, Your welds are so much better than mine they are not in the same ball park! Never learned to TIG. My MIG welds look like bird turds and my arc welds are wide and beefy...like my mother in law!

I like a rendering pot to hold a little over a hundred pounds too.

I am up for a new phone...is the Droid the way to go? I think they are now free with a two year contract.

[runfiverun]

doin good.
made the big bore cast boolit prairie dog shoot in wyoming.
had one heck of a time, not many dogs, but the campfire was a hoot.

anyways you are right about the absolute final score, Jim wins.... pot gets used.
hopefully you have a dipper figured out too.

[Jim_Fleming]

Oh yeah, no problem with my dipper at all. I use a four pound dipper made out of cast iron. I guess you could say it's a regular lead dipper. Ugh! That sounded kind of lame. It is a wee bit heavy when full of lead, But it only takes a few dips to fill my ingot pan which holds about twelve pounds of lead. Several of those ingot pans don't take long to empty my rendering pot.

SG, see? I do like your choice of words rendering than smelting.

LMBAO!

Big bore, prairie dog shooting. Sounds like a good time.

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[Jim_Fleming]

Gents I have good news to report!!!

The much accursed pot, and darned well long awaited pot, has been completed!!!

I rendered about 33-34 pounds of wheel weight metal out of about 2 & 1/2 3 lb. coffee cans full of wheel weights...

OMG, I can't believe how many iron and zinc wheel weights that didn't melt down and were scrapped as dross...

NOT A SINGLE LEAK, I am damn please to report... As I'd hoped.

runfiverun, the scores were:

Jim - 0
Pot - 3

However the final tally and recount is, as predicted...... (drum roll please!!!!!)

Jim - Winner
Pot - Loser
:kidding: :kidding: :kidding: :kidding: :kidding: :kidding: :kidding: :kidding:

LMBO! I hope to render down a lot of lead thru this thing... I'll say this about the newer thinner bottom... It seems faster to melt down... less heat absorbed by the cast iron...

[Leadforbrains]

Congrats again Jim!
Steve

[Jim_Fleming]

Thanks, Steve, it's appreciated... :bigsmyl2:



Congrats again Jim!
Steve

[Jim_Fleming]

Well guys, I'm thrilled to say in the last 2 days I have rendered about 100 pounds of wheel weight metal down from scrap wheel weights. It is amazing how much loss I have due to iron and zinc weight contamination.

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[Jim_Fleming]

Well, there's really great news to report on the great lead pot escapade.

I rendered down my entire stock pile of about 500 pounds of mixed wheel weights. I ended up with about 420+ pounds of ingots of wheel weight lead.

Even if I shoot nothing but 44 Magnum, it's going to take a while to run through that many wheel weights!

You've all given me a lot of support while I was aceing out the problems.

Thank you folks!

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