.36 Navy Paper Cartridges

[treadhead1952]

Hi All,

Gun magazines, the reading kind, not the cartridge stuffed into kind, are often instigators of a lot of my firearms experimentation. In the Summer 2011 issue of "Guns of the Old West", I discovered an interesting article on paper cartridges made up for .36 and .44 caliber BP Cap and Ball Revolvers. I have long used .36 caliber conicals in my 1851 Colt Navy replica, a steel framed version, these were purchased at a now defunct Black Powder shop here in Las Vegas. I am down to probably the last 50 or 60 of them. They "mike" out at .379", shoot quite nicely in my Colt Navy, grouping into about 2 inches for me at 25 yards. While I am looking for a mold to cast up my very own, this article is more concerned with how to go about making up the actual paper cartridges like the ones in the magazine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/treadhead1952/EmColtNavy_002.jpg

Now I did go through 10 pages of the Paper Patched Boolit threads and 10 pages of the Muzzleloading threads attempting to locate anything about the subject, so if there is a thread all about this buried someplace earlier, sorry, but I did make the attempt to locate the information. While I did find a bunch of interesting threads on C&B Revolvers, conversions, loading information and that sort of thing, but nothing specific to what I am looking for. The gentleman who makes up the paper cartridges that were tested has done his homework quite obviously from what the article said.

From Potassium Nitrated paper so that it completely combusts to period packaging, reasonable loads, 15 grains of triple Fg in the .36 cartridges to 25 grains of triple Fg in the .44's, it all sounded so rosy in the article, I am fairly champing at the bit to come up with my own. The Potassium Nitrate isn't hard to come by, any drug store or chemical supply store will have that. One could go so far as to use some stump removers that have it as a primary ingredient, you would have to purify it somewhat, there are articles on the web on how to go about it. The paper would be the same onion skin that is used to paper patch BPCR boolits, again not an issue.

So, looking for a .379" boolit mold of some sort, possibly someone can point me in the right direction. I will be obtaining some of the Onion Skin paper from the internet links provided in other threads I have discovered. The same goes for the Potassium Nitrate. From what I have already read, it is better to cut the paper to size before soaking it, so possibly a clue as to what sort of shape to start with for this project would also be some handy information. I have my choice of several powders from Pyrodex "P" to two Fg and three Fg Goex to experiment with for accuracy. The 15 grain loading used in the article chronographed out to 689 FPS for an average, not exactly barn burning loads, but then this isn't about that sort of thing. I am looking for a convenient to carry and quicker to load method for my 1851 Colt Navy not how to magnumize it. If I can pick up a little more accuracy along the way that would be a good thing as well. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/treadhead1952/EmColtNavy_004.jpg

[Hellgate]

I would recommend the LEE double cavity 130 grain conical mold. It throws a .380 outer diameter conical with rebated driving bands that allow easy but straight alignment into the chambers. You also can make combustible cartridges from nitrated (saturated KNO3 soaked & dried) cigarette papers (what I used to do).

[treadhead1952]

Hi Hellgate,

Yours is the second reply to recommend cigarette papers as a paper medium in the places I posted this to learn about how to go about it. The other one tried to do it in a round about way, sorta like he may have been nervous as to his relationship with such a subject. :D

I tried to look up the mold in the Midway Shooters catalog and online but drew a blank so I fired off a "Couldn't find it" inquiry and they did a little homework and coughed up a link to the proper mold.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=107907

Not a bad price, so I will be ordering one up on my next payday, having blown my shooting budget this payday on a new Lee Lead Furnace. I am also going to go with the onion skin paper, even though cigarette papers would be a quicker and more immediate solution, a ream of the onion skin paper would be cheaper in the long run.

I suppose I will have to come up with a form to roll the paper tube up to make my cartridges from. Looking at the article and photos of the cartridges in it, they appear to be somewhat tapered from the bullet back to the base. I have always used a greased wad in my .36 Navy when shooting ball or boolit, I am wondering how this would affect the powder charge, maybe an over powder card might be a solution there to separate the powder and greased wad. I am also a bit curious as to what I could use to join the edges of my paper cartridge with besides the obvious, spit.

[Hellgate]

The reason I used the cig papers is they already have a glued edge so I could licki, stick it and rollit onto the driving bands. I also always had a pair of tweezers handy to fish out any unburned paper in the chambers which sometimes happened. I believe I used a portion of a 3/8" (.375") dowel as a form. I never did whittle it to a taper but you sure could. I used to pierce the paper after loading with a nipple pick or just burst it open to dump most of it loosely into the chambers while loading. I've been into cowboy Action shooting since 1992 and started out with my '61 Navy 36 and a Ruger Blackhawk. I got enough misfires and delayed ignition with paper cartridges while plinking that I never used them during matches. I pretty much load from a flask. I never did lube a wad or the bullet with the paper cartridges, I just used a variety of over ball lubes. They all worked. I would expect any lube you used on the bullet or a wad would leach into the powder eventually so I wouldn't recommend you bother with it. The original Civil War bullets may have been lubed but I suspect with a beeswax formula of some type that was likely not oily. Keep in mind that the C&Bs were a HUGE leap of firepower from the single shot pistols they replace and were not designed to nor expected to be shot more than 6 times in a row. If someone needed more shots they either carried a second (or 3rd or 4th) revolver or resorted to a fighting knife or sword. The revolvers were cleaned and reloaded away from the fray.

[treadhead1952]

Hi Hellgate,

Some very valid observations there, nothing like experience on the firing line to gain it. I suppose that I could forego the lubed wad. Not having anything other than Lee squeeze type sizing and using tumble lube for all of my other lube needs sort of means that I will have to pan lube the little conicals before hand with some black powder type lube. Smearing a dab of lube over the top of the loaded cartridge would probably also suffice. Like I said, this is all experimentation to see just what is possible.

The round ball mold that I have for my .36 is a .380" so that I could get the ring of lead when I squooze it down in the chamber. A smaller diameter would probably make it possible to make up some round ball cartridges. It is my understanding that most of the round balls were simply loaded with loose powder rather than a cartridge though.

I understand about carrying more than one C&B revolver as opposed to trying to reload one in a combat situation. The closest a reload could possibly be for one would be an extra loaded cylinder to swap out I guess. I have been looking at a few other revolvers, not quite up to your 16+ yet, but one or two others would definitely be within the realm of possibility. I am thinking about Pietta's 1860 Army short barreled Police model in .36, I suppose that would be as close to a quick draw as one could get with C&B. Also something in .44 would be nice just for the heavier load that it fired.:Fire:

[Omnivore]

treadhead; check out the sticky "Black Powder Essentials" here;
http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12

Tons of hands-on information regarding consumable envelope cartridges there. I've used quite a few of them with my 44s. Some things I learned from experience;
Don't twist the papers at the nipple end of the cartridge - that's how you can end up with misfires, and even a horribly clogged (with paper) nipple flash hole. FOLD the back of the cartridge, so there's never a thick mass of paper back there.

I always used cigarette papers, as stated before, because they come pre-gummed. Some comment on that; the Zig Zags are stronger and thinner - just beautiful paper, BUT they burn slower than the cheaper brands. You don't want that, or any other "slow burning" papers. I also used both nitrated and untreated papers, and I didn't notice much difference. They both worked fine.

There will usually be some remnants of paper left over in the chambers. I learned to ignore them, as they haven't caused me any trouble. BUT be aware that stuffing black powder into a hot cylinder could be extremely dangerous. After some thought, I always let the cylinder cool for a bit before reloading it. Using the Remington 1858 revolver made this easy - I'd shoot one cylinder, swap out for another and load that one, back and forth, such that I'm always loading a cylinder that's been allowed to cool (or more specifically, any burning embers have been allowed to burn out).

As you ram the cartridge in, it is well and thoroughly crushed. No need to prick them before firing, SO LONG AS you haven't twisted or otherwise bunched a mass of paper at the back end. FOLD them, so you have maybe three thicknesses of paper there, and you won’t have any ignition trouble. Experiment.

Consumable cartridges were used in large number during the War Between the States. Some were paper, and some were "skin". I have a book on it, but it's mostly about this or that business deal, etc., and scant little on the actual construction of the cartridges. All seem to have used conicals, but I've made mine mostly with round ball.

That taper makes them a bit easier to load is all. That can be important with Colt revolvers, where you might have the barrel wedge in the way. The cart can be a bit over-long, but it makes no matter as you're crushing it into the chamber anyway and it will conform to the chamber wall.

Trying to use a felt wad was a nightmare for me. If you can pull it off, I commend you, but they weren't made with wads back in the day so I didn't worry about using them either. As was said earlier, lube against the powder may, and has for me, caused powder degradation over time.

If you're really committed to using over powder wads, you can compromise and make "powder only" cartridges. I've done this also. You drop the "powder bag" into the chamber, then the bullet. Or you drop in the "pwder bag", then a wad, then the bullet. Works swimmingly.

FYI, data collected from the book I have reveals that military "44/100ths" caliber "consumable envelope cartridges" were supplied with a wide range of loads, from miniscule powder charges under 250+ grain bullets, to 35 grains powder under a ~200 grain bullet.

[treadhead1952]

Hi Omnivore,

Thanks for the link, I had to join up to THR to be able to see the photographs, but it is a very elegant and simple way to go about it. Now I will have to go purchase some cigarette papers (something I haven't done in many, many years:grin: ) and see how well I can manage. While this is one simple answer to the question, it isn't quite what I had expected. As I explore this some more, I will post my results.

[Kitika]

I bored out a hole a fair bit skinnier than my bore in a piece of steel about the depth of my cylinder and smoothed the top edge over so as not to cut the paper.
I then just cut out pieces of baking paper as that was the strongest type of paper I could find and pushed it into the die with the rounded end of a pencil and filled up the cavity with powder and topped it with a ball. I then gave the paper abit of a twist over the top of the ball and poured abit of candle wax over the top of twist of paper to seal it and hold it all in place.

It worked great for me in my .44 1858 remington and as the 'cartridge' is tapered it is very easy to load up in the cylinder and i never had any troubles with the paper not burning.

[Omnivore]

treadhead; I don't think I mentioned that I always rolled mine over a mandrel. I thought about making a mandrel on the lathe, but found a ballpoint pen shank with about the right taper and size, and just used that. I roll and stick the paper, being careful not to over-moisten it, which can cause it to stick to the mandrel, then remove it, so now I have a tapered paper tube that's open at both ends. One end is larger than the ball, so I lay the tube down on a table and just roll a ball into the tapered tube, then hand crimp the paper over the ball, gently squeezing the ball tight into the tapered tube. Place the ball end into a loading block, which in this case was a plastic cartridge box insert for modern cartridges as they come from the factory. That leaves the smaller, open end up. Throw your chosen powder charge and dunp it into the tube. Now I figured out by trial and error, where to cut the tube with scissors, leaving the gummed strip as the longest part. Then fold the non-gummed paper in stages, working around to where all you have left is the gummed strip sticking up over the folded end, wet the strip and make that your final fold. Oh yeah; don't wet the back (small) end of the paper when you first roll it over the mandrel. That lets you wet it an stick it as your final fold - more trial and error. You can finish up by carefully squeezing the ball against the powder to make a fairly tight cartridge, and twist the paper over the ball into a tail. You can cut off the tail, but I found it much easier to grasp the cartridge by the tail, thumb it into a chamber and rip off the tail in one motion. Again; trial and error. Everyone has their own methods and little tricks.

One issue is getting the cartridge shaped so the powder doesn't get pinched between the ball and the chamber wall. One way I prevented this is by rolling the tube around the ball a bit, before adding the powder, so the finished cart looks something an ice cream cone, with a flat bottom and the ball as the widest part on top.

Finding ways to make it go faster will be an important goal, as this can be very time-consuming.

Someone made a comment about using a smaller ball, due to the thickness of the paper. Don't. For one thing, typical cig paper is less than a thousandth, for another, the paper gets sheared off from around the ball upon loading anyway and you just ignore all that.

Cheers.

[treadhead1952]

Thanks Guys,

Some more excellent input on the subject. I do have my .380" ball mold which is what I have been using for years to load my .36 1851 Navy with so I can experiment around a bit with the knowledge gained so far. And I do have about 50 or 60 of the old conical boolits left, so I can include them in my plans as well.

The link that Midway Shooters Supply sent me was all very nice and all, but unfortunately after looking closely at it I realized that they are out of stock on that particular item. :razz: I did find out that Titan Reloading does have it in stock at $19.49 (same price as Midway) so that will be where I acquire mine.

http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/black-powder-molds/conical-bullet-mold/lee-dc-mold-375-130-1r-

I am hoping that I will be getting my new Lee Lead Pot in tomorrow or the next day if the US Postal Service is on the ball. That way I can throw together a new batch of .380" balls to experiment with.

[NickSS]

I have made two types of cartridges for my revolvers one is the paper kind described by several posters above and the other is the type favored by NSSA shooters using plastic pipe caps of the right size. Several suttlers sell these for fairly small amounts of money. They are reall handy and durable something the paper ones are not. All you do is put a measured charge in the tube and stick the bullet in the open end . To use pull bullet, dump powder, place bullet over chamber and ram it home. In my 36 cal my conical bullet has a grease groove that I lube (actually I dip the entire nose in melted black powder lube after I stick the base of the bullet in the tube. In use I pull the bullet with my teeth pour powder, seat the bullet and after capping my gun is ready to shoot.

[Multigunner]

I understand about carrying more than one C&B revolver as opposed to trying to reload one in a combat situation. The closest a reload could possibly be for one would be an extra loaded cylinder to swap out I guess.

Its actually faster to switch out cylinders than it is to eject six expended cartridge cases then reload one chamber at a time.

It takes some practice and would be a hassle on horseback, but its really fairly easy.
A lot of old time gunslingers preferred the Cap&Ball revolvers long after cartridge models became available.

[gnoahhh]

Having experimented with combustible cartridges fairly extensively, I made a few observations along the way. First, I found thin Japanese rice paper to work the best. You can find it in any art supply store. Soaking thin onion skin or cigarette papers in a super-saturated solution of salt peter (potassium nitrate)/water will cause them to pretty much dissolve, and wash away any pre-applied glue. Cut them to shape, soak in the solution, and hang them up on a little makeshift clothesline to dry. Once dry, roll your cartridges. The advice about not building up paper thickness over the tail is good. I glue them closed with one of those little glue sticks grade school kids use. I also use that stuff to cement the bullets into the cone. Make a pattern for the papers out of cardboard, in the shape of a right triangle cut in half. Allow just enough paper to go once around the mandrel with about 1/4" overlap. They're pretty tiny things.

The reason you want to soak them in a super-saturated solution is to make them truly combustible.

Making a tapered dowel is no big deal. You can do it by chucking a wooden dowel in a drill press and attacking it with a file and sand paper. A taper approximating a Morse taper -pretty gentle taper- is about right. Experiment by pouring your charge into a cone until you get it sized right.

I load them straight into the chamber. No pricking/tearing the ends. Smooshing them in with the loading lever breaks open the cartridge to expose powder to the cap flash. They are completely combusted, leaving no smoldering embers behind. I do usually put a smear of lube over the end of the chamber after loading.

They are pretty fragile things. I carry mine in either a Civil War style cap box, or a purpose-built leather Civil War era pistol cartridge box.

[Tom-ADC]

I always thought that flash paper that magicians use would be good for this.

[treadhead1952]

Some good suggestions and points to consider fellas. Flash paper was, I always thought, impregnated with Potassium Nitrate, sort of what we were discussing before.

I got my Lee Production Pot IV on Tuesday but chores kept my attention until today. Having a need for some .45 Colt sized boolits and something to try in my new Mosin/Nagant sort of decided that I would need some alloy rather than a run of pure lead first off. I did run off a "few" 230 grain .452" Round Nosed boolits a small number of .312" 185 Grain Round Nose boolits. Now I gotta come up with some gas checks and bullet lube to carry on with this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/treadhead1952/EmCB_022.jpg

If I ain't wore completely to a nub tomorrow after "My Monday" at work, I may fire up the lead pot again and run some .380" balls and something .54 caliber-ish so I can play with my black powder stuff on the next trip to the range.

[Multigunner]

I always thought that flash paper that magicians use would be good for this.

I was about to suggest this earlier, but as volatile as that paper is I'd be concerned that any stray spark , possibly even static electricity, might set off a chain reaction explosion in a cartridge pouch or box.

I'd considered using the magicians flash paper as an over the charge wad in lightly loaded rifle cartridges, but the vigorous burning of this paper made me wonder if it might be too energetic and could cause an unwanted increase in pressure. The flash paper is in many ways similar to the earliest smokeless powders made from wood pulp.

[treadhead1952]

Yeah, I sorta had wonders about the flash paper causing a pressure problem as well as what would happen it a whole package of them should all of a sudden "FLASH!":smile:

From all the other posts on the subject, Potassium Nitrate soaked paper or just plain old thin cigarette papers sound like a much safer way to go about it. I just pulled the trigger on a Lee double cavity .375" 130 grain conical bullet mould which should be arriving around the first of the month. With it in hand I won't have any more excuses so I will have to get off the dime and make some paper cartridges up to see just how it is done.

[PAMuzzleshooter]

I just found this you tube video of a tool to make cartridges. It's in French but you'll git the jist of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E_pnnFVX74&NR=1


Semper Fi treadhead1952

[treadhead1952]

Interesting, looks pretty simple to use.

I received my Lee .375"- 130 grain conical boolit mould the other day. I have been trying to work up the gumption to fire up the lead pot and get busy with some muzzle loading projectiles so I can try out some of these excellent suggestions and ideas.

[Multigunner]

Yeah, I sorta had wonders about the flash paper causing a pressure problem as well as what would happen it a whole package of them should all of a sudden "FLASH!":smile:

From all the other posts on the subject, Potassium Nitrate soaked paper or just plain old thin cigarette papers sound like a much safer way to go about it. I just pulled the trigger on a Lee double cavity .375" 130 grain conical bullet mould which should be arriving around the first of the month. With it in hand I won't have any more excuses so I will have to get off the dime and make some paper cartridges up to see just how it is done.


Cigarette papers used by cigarette companies to manufacture cigarettes are treated to continue burning when the cigarette is set down in an ashtray for awhile. Cigarette papers that come with cans or packs of tobacco are not treated, when a hand rolled cigarette is set down in an ashtray for any length of time it goes out and must be re lighted.

Papers that come with tobacco are not suitable for use in making paper cartridges unless treated to insure full burning away of remaining scraps and very quickly.
Otherwise a smoldering shred of paper cartridge can ignite the next cartridge loaded, even minutes after firing.

I've tried making cartridges using regular rolling papers, and always found smoldering shreds left in the chamber.

The nitrate treatment of paper also makes the finished cartridge slightly moisture resistent. Not water proof by any stretch, but unlikely to draw moisture from the air.