vertical stringing in win 94

[lylejb]

Been working with a new to me pre 64 Win 94 in 30-30 for the last few weekends.

No matter what I try, I get 4 to 6 in vertical stringing at 50 yds. The groups are usually 3/4 in wide by 4 to 6 in tall. This is from a sandbag bench rest.

The rifle is scoped with a Weaver K2.5 in a weaver side mount and rings. I have checked, the scope mounting is tight.

The boolit I have available to me is the 311041 GC 'd, sized .310

I've tried unique at 9.0, and 9.5 gr,
herco at 10.5 gr,
h335 at 23.5 gr,
IMR 4895 at 28.0 gr,

With the unique and herco loads, i've tried Win and CCI , both rifle and pistol primers, with no change.

With the H335 i've used WLR primers, and with the IMR 4895 i've tried WLR and CCI primers, no change.

The boolits I have are lubed with orange magic, but I've also tried pan lubing with my homebrew BW/ alox/ jpw mix, no change.

I even tried trickling the charges of herco, to make sure the charges were even. very little, if any, change.

It seems to me either this rifle doesn't like the 311041, or there's something wrong with this rifle.

anybody else have this happen? suggestions?

[chambers]

Vertical stringing can be a sign of too much powder, try backing down the charge a little(1 grain) and see if it goes away. The load may be on the top end. I have seen this myself, so I'll throw it out there.

[lylejb]

While that's worth a try, the 9 gr unique load is way light already. I don't have a chrono to check it, but I think it's 1300-1400 or so.

I would think the 4895 load is more like 1900 or so.

The 335 load is somewhere in between.

ought to be able to find a load that works somewhere in there, but haven't.

[405]

May have less to do with the load and more to do with the gun. Namely how the gun is rested and/or how the barrel harmonics interact with the forend and mag tube.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Mr. McPherson has a nice book out on accurizing the 94 and several related rifles. My reading of it is that it will be helpful to isolate/buffer the forearm from the barrel. Isolate the mag tube from the receiver a little also, look to the crown, and give the tube a little clearance from the band.

Mine really improved following the suggestions.

BvT

[lylejb]

Just as a cross check, I loaded up some J bullets to see if they would do the same......yep, mostly.

1st load, 9.5 unique with 150 gr hornady rn 4" vertical by 1" horizontal string, 10 shots at 50 yds.

2nd load, 30.0gr H335, same bullet / primer / case. 2.75" vertical string, but somewhat odd.

the first 4 shots went high, then it printed 6 into a lower 1.75" round group. Sort of a high group, then a lower group.

I had a spotter watching the shots, so i'm sure of the order of movement.

Any links or more specific info from that book would be helpful.

Thanks.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

He advertises in that very nice Varmint hunters magazine, and I think Precision Shooting magazine perhaps had a hand in puplishing the book. Google his name.

Try carefully disassembling the tube, band and forend. The tube should have a tiny bit of clearance from bottoming out in the receiver with the band and screw correctly installed, The forend a tiny bit of slightly tight fore and aft movement when assembled. Read the book. Interlibrary loan, borrow etc.

BvT

[Trailblazer]

How does the butt stock fit to the receiver? I have an 1895 Winchester that did the same thing-vertical 6" strings. The butt stock was loose at the receiver. I bedded the butt stock and now it shoots nice round 2" to 3" groups. It can probably do better but I haven't worked with it much.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned it is most likely a bedding problem with the forend, mag tube and end cap screw putting too much or uneven pressure on the barrel.

The barrel should be free floated or just slightly touching the barrel.

The barrel should not touch the barrel band. The mag tube should be relieved slightly at the rear so it does not bind into the receiver.

The mag spring is too long. I cut them off so only about 8" extends beyond the front end. This is sufficient for feeding and makes loading easier also. It relieves excess tension pushing on the end cap and the retaining screw in the bottom of the barrel.

Remove the end of the end cap screw so it just bottoms out in the hole in the barrel and puts no upward pressure on the barrel.

Larry Gibson

[30calflash]

After checking the mechanicals mentioned you may want to try this. Load and shoot only 3 rounds from the mag instead of 5. The barrel's vibrations are a lot different and are more inclined to be consistent when you have 1 in the chamber and 2 in the mag. Otherwise you have a heavy, varying and shifting weight hanging on the end of the barrel as you try to shoot groups.
I've read of this, not tried it myself. But all firearms can and may react differently. YMMV. 30cal.

[lylejb]

OK, spent this morning with the win 94.

First off, too tight was an understatement. They must have driven the forearm in place with a rubber mallet, then driven both barrel band screws with a hammer.

Tight didn't begin to describe.

Even after They cleared the threads, they STILL wouldn't come out. Binding in place as if they were roll pins.

The barrel band at the front of the forearm was so tight, it has a groove pressed into the wood, and was all i could do to "walk" it off a 1/32 at a time.

The mag cap screw did deflect the tube when tightened. Shortened about 1/32 so it doesn't anymore.

OK, so here we go.

after I finally got it apart, I did some test fitting. First thing i noticed, was the clearance grooves ( for the barrel band screws) in the bottom of the barrel and top of mag tube did not align. They were off by about 1/3 their diameter.

OK, shortened the mag tube slightly at the reciever end, to allow the grooves to align and to relieve the binding. Widened the grooves slightly (but not deepened) to allow more clearance.

Next, sanded inside the forearm wood to relieve barrel tension. A little at a time, checking fit as I went. I will say, this forearm isn't their best piece of work, it's not concentric / well centered right to left.

Then I sanded inside both barrel bands to open them up a bit.

A quick touch up with oxpho-blue to all the places I made bare, then it's time to put it back together.

But wait, this !@#$%%& forearm band screw won't fit! It wants to miss the hole on the other side by 1/3 rd it's diameter..........

Ok, back apart, assemble band to forearm, check fit, OK. assemble band to barrel, check fit, OK. Assemble forearm, band, and barrel, NO GO.....GRRRRR.

I can see light thru the hole, but it won't line up........

There way some leftover junk / cosmo / varnish in the hole, maybe that's it. So, back apart again, clear out the hole, try again.....nope.

with the mag light, I can see the edge of the clearance groove under the barrel is protruding into the area the screw must pass, A-HA.

Back apart again, touch up the groove one more time, touch of blue, again, then back together, again.....finally.

I think I know why gunsmiths charge for this......

After I got it all back together, I now have about .025 of axial float in the mag tube, and confidence that these parts are much better fitted than when they left the factory in 1952.

So, I loaded up the same load as yesterday, 30.0 gh h335, and went to the range.

And the results.....[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

Yep, same as yesterday, or really close. That's 7 rounds on a TQ4 target at 50 yds, and yes the 12:00 high was the first, then they walked right down the page.

All rounds fired single shot.

Didn't want to continue at that point. I'd seen enough.

Just handed the rifle to my son to have fun with.

So what's next? any ideas?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

How well do you shoot with irons at 50 or 100? Can you hold 10 ring in the service rifle target at 100? Your picture shows horizontal dispersion as well. If this is not your regular shooting, it is gun or load related.

It sounds like you have fixed major assembly faults though. I have often went through a rifle before shooting. Odds are poor for a badly assembled rifle to do well.

Make sure you have enough alloy for 200 boolits of the same mix. Cast and size and get them ready. Gather 50 cases, new prefered or once fired. If mixed stamps segregate. Make all the same length. Match prep if you have the tooling. If they will chamber in fired condition, neck size in the F/L die to just at boolit seat depth. Check chambering. Sometimes partial F/L lengthens shoulder length or diameter. Clean and prime the exact same all at one time. Shoot in testing imcrements till ALL are shot methodically. Shoot 3 shot groups carefully. Try to call shots and discount the worst shot.

Pick 3 powders. For 31141, I would pick Varget, a 4895, and AA2520. Pick a charge from the book at the mid point of the table. Load 3 of each using a m die, minimal belling, uniform moderate crimp in a seperate operstion. Shoot on a target using a 6 o'clock hold with bench and technique as well as you can. Pick the best of the 3. Now load 3 of each , using that powder, each load plus 1 grain up to max book level. Shoot seperate targets, make notes, measure. If you can't do the equal of your iron sighted best of any rifle of what you have with a 30-30, pick the second best powder and run more trials the same using the cases not yet fired. Loading must be carefull. Establish seating depth for mag feed and chambering with dummies of junk cases done the same. Try a .311 diameter test early in the game as soon as you can detect a powder preference. Chambering must allow easy lock up with the bullet the longest that will feed.

Cast boolits must be done very well, and size, lube and GC done well also. Save loads unused or obviously defective for use as a fouler. Several of my pre- 94s will shoot 1 1/2" @ 100 off sandbags on a sturdy bench and I got glasses, cataracts, palsy, and early onset oldtimers. Variable hearing too.

You may change molds when your bullet is ruled nicht so good, change size diameter; watch out for leading, above leads to full power loads.

BvT

[Trailblazer]

Did you check the butt stock?

100 yard group with poor butt stock to receiver fit. Shots are numbered. Vertical spread =6".
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/100_Target.jpg

Two groups after bedding butt stock. Lower group is with 165 Ranch Dog boolit.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/After_bedding_butt_stock.jpg

[Doughty]

lylejb,

Shooting a two piece stocked rifle off of sandbags can be a little tricky. A common result is as you describe; verticle stringing. The fixes to the rifle that have been described are for the most part, good ones, I believe. Additional rifle fixes could include some tightening/firming of the buttstock to the action. However, the biggest problem might be how you are holding the rifle on the bags. I don't presume to know what your benchrest technique is, but often inconsistent cheek pressure on the stock will cause verticle stringing. Pressing down very hard, shot goes high, a light hold, boolit goes low is common. You might try just supporting the forearm on your hand which is rested on the front bags, and not using a rear bag, but just shooting off your elbows. See if that changes your group any. If that changes it any (hopefully for the better) then you might benefit from time spent in perfecting your hold on the bags. I've been shooting leveraction repeaters and Ruger #1s for over 30 years now, and I'm still perfecting my hold.

Hope you get this figured out, and remember, have fun shooting with your son.

Richard

[northmn]

A gunsmith I knew used to get paid to sight in 94's. He would bring several guns to the bench and fire a shot, let it cool while he worked with other guns. claimed that was aproblem with a 94. You may have to cold sight the thing like he did to see if any of the other suggestions have merit. I worked over my Rossi 92 Winchester clone like you did and had very good results.

DP

[405]

Keep going, no need to give up. Keep testing/isolating variables until the culprit is flushed out. Unless the gun has a bent barrel or something like that it should shoot better. None are capable of bench rest accuracy but that much vertical does have a cause. One thing to try is to shoot it without any forend, mag tube or bands on it. They can be shot single shot. Try shooting a few with the front rest under the receiver, some with the front rest under about mid-barrel and some with front rest under the muzzle end. When changing loads try to test the extremes against each other- like fast vs slow, heavy bullet vs light bullet, fast powder vs slow powder. That way any hint at a cause can be more easily recognized.

[jmsj]

lylejb,
Are you cleaning the barrel between groups/shooting sessions?
You say that the first shot shoots high and then they start walking down. My guns do the same thing to varying degrees after I seriously clean the barrel. Once they get "fouled" they seem to settle in.
I read a post here a while back where a gentleman was having a very similar issue w/ a Marlin 1894 (I think).
After I sight in for hunting season, I do not clean the bore of my gun at least until hunting season is over. If I think the bore needs cleaned I try a dry patch on jag.
Good luck, jmsj

[Larry Gibson]

lylejb

7 shots?

Are you loading the tube and shooting them progressively? If so (nothing wrong with that as that's how it would be used in the field) then load 7 rounds in the tube and see how much pressure is put on the barrel. You mentioned doing most of what I mentioned except one thing; shortening the mag spring to alieviate undo pressure on the barrel. You might also have to adjust the end cap screw a little more. Seven rounds in that mag is putting upward pressure (actually bending it a little). That's why the 1st shot goes high. With each additional shot as another round is removed from the mag tube, thus less spring tension, the barrel straightens out and the "group" walks down the target, exactly as in your target.

There's a lot of spring in that tube that doesn't need to be there. Again suggest shortening it so when the mag tube is empty of cartridges only about 8" sticks out the end of the tube. There will still be plenty of spring in the tube to feed the rounds reliably.

Larry Gibson

[lylejb]

Ok,

As far as "how's my shooting?" A HECK OF ALOT BETTER THAN THAT!!!

No, I'm not a champion benchrest shooter, but I can do 5 shots in 1" @ 100 with my 30-06.

I'm not asking or expecting that from this rifle, but if I could at least get ROUND groups, that would be a big step forward.


Unless the gun has a bent barrel or something like that it should shoot better. None are capable of bench rest accuracy but that much vertical does have a cause

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.


Are you cleaning the barrel between groups/shooting sessions?

No. I fired 40 rds saturday "before" and 40rds sunday "after" without cleaning.


Are you loading the tube and shooting them progressively?

No. All were loaded single shot. Nothing in the mag tube.

As far as load work up:

I've tried unique, herco, H335, IMR4895, with 3 or 4 primers, 311041's and hornady 150gr jacketed, with velocities about 1300 to 2000fps. Nothing fixes this, but the slowest unique load was the worst. However, faster doesn't really help, either. The target I posted was shot with 30.0 gr H335, with the 150gr jacketed. 30.0 IMR4895 was no better.

I'll post a target shot with 9.5 unique, and 311041's. It's not the worst (can't find that one), but shows the same thing.


Your picture shows horizontal dispersion as well

Yeah, an inch or so. At this point, I'm not too worried about that. If I could get the vertical to match the horizontal, I would be happy as a clam.


One thing to try is to shoot it without any forend, mag tube or bands on it.

I think I will try that. I kind of think the forearm wood may still be too tight, and shooting without it should show that, if so.

AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF,

My .22 broke while at the range, also a Winchester, model 74 ( If anyone knows why a firing pin tries to roll over / turn sideways please let me know. Ill soon be posting that in the rimfire area)

It was a disappointing day all in all.

[MarkW]

Apologies if I've missed this, but do the shots string up or down? Also, how long is it between shots, right away or a minute or two?

[lylejb]

The shots start high, then go down.

I really wasn't paying attention to how fast I was shooting, or trying for any specific time.

It was probably 1 minute per shot, give or take.

Yes, I think it is something related to heat / thermal expansion.

I suspect the forearm wood is still a too tight fit, but it will be the weekend before I can get back to the range to try anything more.

Thanks to all for the help, we WILL get this rifle shooting;)

[Char-Gar]

Shooting a levergun carbine off sand bags has never produced good results for me. Verticle stringing most often results.

I grip the forend with my hand resting on the front sand bag. I pull the rifle into my shoulder with no rest, align the sights and squeeze the trigger. This brings good result for me.

Also single load (as you did). With the tubular magazine loaded the rounds shift to the rear as they are fired and this also can have an effect on accuracy.

Fire 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool before going at it again. If the barrel gets hot, it can put all kinds of squirrel pressures on the mag tube and bands.

These are not designed to be target rifles and need to be shot a different way.

[Matthew 25]

Can't you shoot it without the mag tube, bands, and forend mounted?

[para45lda]

I'll give you $200 for it right now.

:kidding:

[zac0419]

I had found this the other day just reading around. I saved it for future use. I haven't tried any of the things he listed but maybe something in here helps.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

[popper]

Have you tried the iron sights? Your targets show a horizontal difference between range outings. I assume you aim the scope at the 10 when you shoot. I shot a guy's side mount AK once, couldn't keep on paper between shots.

[Canuck Bob]

Mr. McPherson has a nice book out on accurizing the 94 and several related rifles. My reading of it is that it will be helpful to isolate/buffer the forearm from the barrel. Isolate the mag tube from the receiver a little also, look to the crown, and give the tube a little clearance from the band.

Mine really improved following the suggestions.

BvT

What is the books title, please?

Edit: found the site http://www.levergun.com/main_index.htm

[lylejb]

Update:

Sunday eve. went back to the range. This time without forearm, mag tube, and bands.

Firing the 9.5 unique load, with 311041's and knowing that this would finally tell me what's going on.

So I set up on the sandbags, same as all other outings, and fired the first 5 shots with confidence, knowing this group would be better. In fact EXPECTING a nice round, small group.

As I fired, I couldn't see the groups thru the scope, which happens sometimes when they're all in the black.

I walked up to the target to check my sure to be fine group.............

Not a round on paper! What the @@##!

I walk up to 15 yds, and fire a shot. A mile low, but at least on the bottom edge of the paper.

+20 clicks on the scope, fire again. Ok, now we're closer at 15 yds, back to the bench (50 yds)

Fire again, still a mile low, but at least 1 hit the bottom edge of the paper.

OK, +10 more clicks on the scope, try again. Still low, but on the edge of the black.

Man, this is NUTS. + another 10 clicks (now 40 clicks up) and fire again.

Ok, this is more like it. This target is 5 rounds. One is a double, I had to really look close to see it, even with the target in my hand.

I'm not exactly sure how much change 1 click is, I think 1/4" @100. The scope is a Weaver K2.5 El Paso.

But, in any case, 40 clicks is a lot. the Forearm must be pushing upward HARD to make that much change.

Now, It starts to add up. This is why I had such problems with reassembly of the forearm and band.

I sanded out some in the barrel channel, but not enough it would seem.

more woodwork is in this one's future.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

1/4" click at 100 yards is 1/8" @ 50, and so forth. But that is nominal. The actual may be slightly more or less. It may be time to set your scope to optical & mechanical zero, then get proper rings and bases to get reasonably close to 10 X at 50 yards. Otherwise you may not have enough clicks in that scope to be useful.

Best to resolve scope/mount issues before load development or rifle accuracy work.

BvT

[Char-Gar]

With all of the wood and metal gone, did you rest the barrel directly on the sand bag? If you did, I guess you know that will make the rifle shoot wild. You would need to rest the action on the sandbag if you wanted to try that.

[felix]

This should work in that the vibe can be adjusted out much like with a variable muzzle brake can on a free-floated barrel. ... felix

I need 325 KB for this file to be uploaded, so cannot display...... felix

[Matthew 25]

Right on, lylejb. It sure is nice to know what the rifle is capable of, adds a little motivation for all the work you have before you. So I know you'd be guessing...but do you think it came from the factory like that, did it warp/change on its own, or are there parts that don't belong?

[lylejb]

Ok, back at this one again!

Over the weekend, I disassembled again. I sanded more clearance in the wood, both in the barrel channel and in the slight lip that fits to the reciever.

It seemed like I was sanding alot (worried about too much), so I test fitted many times.

I used the edge of a piece of notebook paper as a feeler gauge to find the high / hard spots, and would take a little more off when found.

As it ended up, I have a slight resistance to "float" forward and aft when fully assembled, but can move the forearm .030" if I try.

So back to the range I went. Same load as last time 9.5 unique with a 311041, at 50 yds. Single loaded, as last time.

And the results.............[smilie=w:

On the first target, the upper left group was the first 5 shots. I think the flier at the left was my fault.

A quick adjustment of the scope, and fired the second 5 shot group, slightly low and right.

NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE!!!!!

Posted a new target, another small adjustment of the scope, and fired two 5 shot groups, as seen on the second target.

:happy dance:

That is a slightly larger group than the prior groups, but it's putting them where I aimed, every time. Maybe the slightly larger group was my fault, I was getting excited to finally have good results.

I may take a bit more off to see if it helps any further, or I might not, haven't decided yet.

But WOW, what an improvement. Maybe with some load work up, I might even better this result.

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL THAT HELPED. Much appriciated.
:cast_boolits:

[Matthew 25]

Dang, I don't think I'd argue with that. I wouldn't file or sand a thing, I'd be afraid of the 1 in 100 chance you take off too much somewhere. Good job, that took a lot of effort.

[Canuck Bob]

I think I would work on tweaking the load before touching the rifle for awhile. From my perspective your rifle/load is shooting just fine already. Minute of coyote to 200 yards to my eye.

Great thread for me to help work on my 32 Special soon.

[coyotebait]

lylejb
Those results must be very satisfying. Good for you.
coyotebait

[lylejb]

I think I would work on tweaking the load before touching the rifle for awhile. From my perspective your rifle/load is shooting just fine already. Minute of coyote to 200 yards to my eye.

Great thread for me to help work on my 32 Special soon.

Yes, I do think some load development / experimentation is in order.

My goal was minute of deer @ 100yds. Finally, I think I'm there.

I tried some work up before I fixed the rifle, and because of the rifles stringing, I couldn't tell anything. They would ALL string.....

Actually, I need to get a mould for this rifle, and soon. I don't actually have the 311041 mould. Before I started casting, I knew someone who did, and he cast a batch for me. I'm down to 40 or 50 left, and my son goes through that many FAST.


Due to budget issues, I'll probably go with a Lee. I'm not sure if the 150 or 170 would be better, or if it would really matter.

Any input on the Lee 150 or 170's would be welcome.

This rifle will likely be my son's first deer hunt / deer rifle this fall. The rest of the year it will be fun / plinking / range practice.

Actually, I want to work up two loads, a light plinker / fun load (like this unique load) and a full power hunting load.

Thanks again.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Do not worry. Clearance is clearance be it a lot or a little.

That rifle holding 10 ring without much load development is good. The limited vertical suggests the gun is less affectred by mechanical things and may indeed be mostly due to the load itself. Sometines ladder testing shows horizontal dispersion, vertical dispersion, and very nice grouping all with 1/2 grain powder changes.

Just think when all is tuned, how accurate this rifle may be. BvT

[Philngruvy]

the lee 170 gr will be closer to the lyman 311041 in performance.

[725]

So much very good advice I hesitate to offer my two cents. Tight barrel bands, too much powder, and inconsistent technique off the bags would be my first places to go. Let the bags steady your gripping hand. Don't just lay it up there and shoot it. It'll jump off the bags and give vertical stringing. Good luck

[Irascible]

I don't think that your loads are anywhere near case filling. So, try raising the muzzle to straight up and bring it down to rest gently. If this improves the groups go to a powder like 4759 or 5744 OR use a case filler. Unless you like REAL slow, Trail boss loads are case filling, but really anemic. I like Reloading Specialties "Super Sam" Shot Buffer as a filler. slightly compressed by the seated bullet. I was told that Unique wasn't case sensitive. BAHHH. I tried an experiment with my model 1885 45-70 with Unique loads. Raising the muzzle shot nice round groups at 100yds. Lowering the muzzle shot a 1" high by 6: wide group.
Another thing you might try is leaving off themagazine tube, forend and bands then single loading to see if that is what is affecting you.

[725]

Seems like you've made great strides in the right direction. Good work. Now, not throw another fly in the works, have you slugged the barrel? I only mention it because I am in the middle of a 94 Trapper refit caused by the Win barrel being too large in diameter. Slugged out large. Don't remember the exact, but it wouldn't shoot any factory jacketed worth a hoot. Went through many combos of moulds, alloys, & powders. Now I'm waiting for a new barrel.