What are guns "really" for?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was just thinking while writing a post on another thread where I was talking about YOU being the biggest variable in the Shooting Equation.

Do you know what guns are all about?

Well,,, guns are tools used for controlling space. Nothing more or less.

The basic notion states that

With a pistol you should be able to control a circle with a 25 yard radius.

With a shotgun with buckshot and slugs 100 yard radius.

And with a rifle 200 yard radius.

When looked at from a defensive viewpoint, this means you should be able to hit a man sized target in the vital area everytime at those distances, with the appropriate tool.

If you were on a hilltop and had aggressors approaching you would stop them at the 200 yard line with your rifle.

If you didn't have a rifle then 100 yards with a shotgun, and obviously 25 yards with a pistol.

However this also assumes you have the presence of mind to make the shots necessary to save yourself and whomever you are defending.

We all talk about what is the best load for such and such. I would submit that the best load is the one that you have the most of, that delivers satisfactory performance and consistant reliability.

You don't want to go to a gun fight with ammo that is going to tie up your weapon do you? You don't need sub MOA accuracy to hit a man at 200 yards, but you do need reliable ammo that goes bang everytime and delivers adequate accuracy.

The vital area on a man and most NA big game animals is about an 8" circle.

That's 8 MOA at 100 yards. 4 MOA at 200 yds, and 2 MOA at 400 yards. Hardly requiring tack driver accuracy. Virtually any factory ammo for any rifle will live up to those standards. So relibility becomes more a factor.

You need that gun to go off everytime and you need ammo that delivers satisfactory accuracy and does not cause feeding or fouling problems.

Virtually all of our military rifles until very recently were only capable of about a consistant 2 MOA accuracy level. (not counting sniper rifles etc). So with that in mind the search for ammo that would repeatedly fire without fouling the gun or causing jambs would be of more use that the absolute most accurate load for that given rifle. (which may not even produce the same accuracy in an identical rifle.

My whole point is that once you have worked up a load for a given gun, you need to stop futsing around and go shoot that gun alot. As long as the load is reliable and does not cause problems, Your proficiency is more important.

It doesn't matter if the gun is a 1/2 MOA rifle, if you can't shoot it.

IF you can't control the space around you when it is needed you lose big time.

Find a reliable load that is easily duplicated, stick with it, and shoot alot.

These are the keys to controlling your space.[smilie=s:

Randy

[geargnasher]

A lot of wisdom in that, Randy.

Gear

[fredj338]

Hmm, I have many guns, rarely do they get used for "controling space". No, mostly they are used for recreation; competition, hunting, plinking. Yes, they can be used to control space, but defining guns only in that fashion, is falling into the liberal dems matra of "guns are only made for one purpose". That just doesn't fit the majority I think.
As far as load developement, well, some of us just like to tinker. I have my fav loads for all my calibers, some 20+ now, but still try a new bulelt here or powder there. Nothing wrong with that.

[izzyjoe]

an old mechanic friend told me once that, guns are like tools, just like tools in many ways. you can buy cheap tools and get the job done, but if you buy good tools you will have them for a lifetime!

[Bwana]

I have "go to" loads for all my guns. That said, I don't know that I'm too concerned about "controlling my space". The last 4000 rnds through my Sav 10FP consisted of the same load with the exception of the LOA which got longer as the throat eroded. Forty boxes of Sierra 180gr FBSPT. I'm glad that was a few years ago when they only cost 13.00 a box.
For me, they are mostly toys that keep me out of trouble.

[Iron Mike Golf]

...And with a rifle 200 yard radius.

When looked at from a defensive viewpoint, this means you should be able to hit a man sized target in the vital area everytime at those distances, with the appropriate tool.

If you were on a hilltop and had aggressors approaching you would stop them at the 200 yard line with your rifle. ..

Randy

Minor quibble (at least from my Army experience). Max effective range was (at least 15 yrs ago when I was still in) defined at 50% probablility of hit on a target (waist-to-head human silhouette). Rifle qualification went to 300 meters. So that translates to a head/torso hit half the time at 300 meters.

[geargnasher]

Topics like these always seem to bring a variety of interesting reponses, but the way I read it, I think you guys missed his point. I shoot for fun mostly, sometimes I do my shooting on the reloading bench and shooting targets is just a test, almost a chore. Sometimes I kill dangerous or tasty things with my guns at ranges beyond what I can with my bare hands or with a rock. Regardless of purpose, the quest for a tiny 200 yard group with a rifle is, from Randy's perspective, a challenge of poking holes close to each other in a piece of paper, but from a very, very long way away. Think about it. How fun is it to shoot a target at ten feet with a deer rifle? Kinda stupid, no? Now with a cap and ball revolver it's big fun. Controlling space is a neat way of looking at it, just like the motto "reach out and touch someone, use a .50 BMG.", regardless of the PURPOSE behind the trigger pull, guns are a way of controlling larger spaces than we can without tools.

If you can't control the tool, you can't contol the space very well, either.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

guns are for

protecting your nation
protecting your self
protecting your family
testing boolits
spending money
arguing on the internet
getting cool stuff for the guns
bragging rights
target practice
hunting
July 4
Jan 1
making movies impossible to believe
keeping the peace
making noise
fun
shootin random stuff to see what happens
the neighbors cat/dog[smilie=1:

I could go on, but Im missing my show.

[Beagler]

guns are for

protecting your nation
protecting your self
protecting your family
testing boolits
spending money
arguing on the internet
getting cool stuff for the guns
bragging rights
target practice
hunting
July 4
Jan 1
making movies impossible to believe
keeping the peace
making noise






shootin random stuff to see what happens
the neighbors cat/dog[smilie=1:

I could go on, but Im missing my show.

Agree!!!

[olafhardt]

The purpose of a gun is to shoot things that that need to be shot.

[Artful]

I Think you have to look at yourself and how you use these tools.

When I started I had a 12 Ga single barrel Shotgun for birds, a 22LR bolt rifle for small game, Surplus 7x57 mauser bolt gun for deer season - I shot for food not trophy racks - did little target shooting (waste of ammo and it's expensive as we were taught)

I then got interested in handguns, joined a gun club, started reloading, used up lots of ammo to try and get the little holes closer together, had fun with different people who talked me from bullseye to PPC to Silhouette to USPSA to DCM highpower to three gun shooting.

Some where along the way I got Volunteered to be on the Board of Directors at the gunclub so had to mingle and try Archery and Trap help with Junior Rifle and some other activities.

Friends? got me started in NFA stuff and I got married so that slowed my shooting down for quite a few years.

To me a Gun started as a tool, turned into a challenge of my abilities to master myself (after I learned you can't buy your way to the score you want!), then into a social interaction even to this here internet stuff about guns.

I now enjoy them for the craftsmanship and history and the ability to bring pleasure to me. We talk and try each others guns and build project guns and keep our selves out of the casino.

If I have a rifle and am on a hill top I can control more than 200 yards - Heck even with a sporting weight barrel and a hunting scope you wouldn't be too safe at 500 yards and if I have my long range gun you better be worried that you'll be having a bad day at over 1KM, I took LEO shotgun class and found I can hit a man size target at 200 M with 4 out of 6 slugs - you have to hold over a fair bit but they will fall onto target I assure you. Sillywet shooting had me shooting at chickens out to 200 m and hitting them with a handgun - actually my best shooting was 9 out of 10 turkey targets at 150 each one head shot,

But the question is this, do you know when you can/should shoot and when you shouldn't/Can't - that's a whole lot more learning to be done than just getting a bullet on paper.

Enjoy your time with the toys but remember they come with responsibility and misuse can have a very high price

[303Guy]

... regardless of the PURPOSE behind the trigger pull, guns are a way of controlling larger spaces than we can without tools.Guns control my space without a doubt! The space on the planet they entice me into. The hills and forests, not to mention the creatures and plants I see and the weather I get to experience. I just love being out in the wind and rain and mud! Don't ask me why - it's just fun. (I'm still to get out into the mountains). And it's the gun that takes me out there. That's my space. Cyber space include. :roll:

Oh yes, don't forget the new culinary delights that the gun brings too. And the friends.:drinks:

[btroj]

While I think the OP put things in the best t erms I do agree with the notions put forth.

I saw it as a "YOU are the limiting factor. Ot the gun, not the ammo, not the sights, but YOU.". I agree entirely. Find a load that is pretty accurate then go learn to shoot it. I shoot very little from a bench. A lost all my range time is spent on my feet shooting offhand. I want to learn to may me a better shot with the load in question.

Go back and read what he really said guys. It wasn't necessarily worded the way I would but it had the right message.

[blackthorn]

A firearm is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Each of us chooses to what purpose that tool will be put. Different strokes for different folks! Have a great day!

[Rocky Raab]

Most of you are over-thinking it.

A gun is a device to propel bullets. That's the most basic definition.

Anything beyond that goes to WHY, but not what.

[BulletFactory]

IMO a gun is for controlling space, as the OP suggested. All else is secondary.

[felix]

I like Rocky's answer best because it is all inclusive and uses one fell-swoop sentence. ... felix

[gray wolf]

I can agree with the OP's statements to a point, but I think he titled it wrong.
He tried to tell everyone what a gun was for and that got translated into and taken to mean ( this is what your guns are for.)
That naturally brought on the usual defensive responses.
I hope we all know what the 2nd. was and is for. It wasn't for hunting and target shooting.
Also I think if it came to defending the nation most of us would be there.
Many of us have been there done that already Eh.
So in the mean time we have learned that our firearms do not have to sit well oiled waiting for a revolution, No we have found other ways to use them.
Many of those ways have been stated in the posts above.
What are guns "really" for?--- Bad title IMHO--
good info--wrong approach to the subject.
I could say what's a screw driver for ? We all know the answer to that.
Opening paint cans--
closing paint cans--( bang with back of handle )
Opening a: door, window, or anything that may be stuck closed--
something to re-shape into another tool--
Stabbing someone
defensive action of some kind, and so on.
This is the wrong group of folks to say: this or anything is for one purpose.
Look at the minds we have here.
We build things, re-make things, re-shape things,
Some here may have even turned Water into Wine and are just keeping it a secret.
For many of us our guns are thing that bring us enjoyment, fun and recreation.
A way to teach people what we know and to share our hobby.
We love our equipment, but I would not hesitate to take an M1 off my shoulder and use it for a pry bar to lift something off a person in need.
IMHO
as long as we know that some day, perhaps, maybe, possibly,we think , it could be.
we may have to use our weapons to defend our self, our loved ones or our country
and remain ready for this--then I see nothing wrong with what we do with our Guns.
Americans have been enjoying there guns and there hobby for many, many years.
It has never stopped us from answering the call of duty.
Or to put down a Duck call -- and make roll call.

Just my way of looking at it.

[montana_charlie]

Having been in situations where control of an area was being contested with guns ...

A gun is a tool made for killing. When no killing is required, practicing with the tool is both fun and educational.

With a pistol, you are able to kill within that 25-yard radius. But you don't control the space if an adversary is 100 yards away with a shotgun, or 200 yards away with a rifle. They control the space you are in.

While the rifleman is aiming at you, thereby controlling your 25-yard circle, another pistol user standing behind the rifleman (or an aircraft that you called in) has gained control of the critical part of his 200-yard circle.

Now, control of your 25-yard circle is split between a rifleman who might shoot you, and a pistolero who might prevent that.

Regardless of how much ammo you have, it's reliability, or your expertise, you DON'T control anything unless you have the only gun in the county.

CM

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Controlled explosion with the side benefit as Rocky stated, " to propel bullets"

[W.R.Buchanan]

Intersting responses,, and all of them are vaild except the ones infering I am a liberal nut case.

I put this out there to increase MY understanding of what guns are for too.

MC's post stated you only control the space if you are the only one with a gun, is something I had not really thought about.

I'm thinking about it now! I guess that's why we look for cover?

It would seem controlled space overlaps. Hadn't thought about that.

Looking at a Chess board one can see that different pieces control space differently, but all do control space.

My main point in the OP was that, being able to control any space is most contingent on proficiency, and just "having" a gun won't get it. You have to be able to use it effficiently.

That's the purpose of the Cast Boolit. It allows you to practice lots more.

Randy

[adrians]

my guns are for keeping me away from the mundane reallity of everyday living.
so it controls space , in my case the space mentioned above.
have a wonderful out there day. :twisted:[smilie=b::evil:

[legend]

Rocky was spot on,and,said it first.it's as simple as that.

[bydand]

To me, guns are something to have fun with, and if it ever comes to that, to protect myself.

To liberals, they are only good for killing innocent children ,and if we got rid of them , all would be sweetness and light in cloud cuckoo land.

[MBTcustom]

I totally agree with the OP.
Back about ten years ago, I remember my brother asking me why I am so obsessed with shooting. (Most of my extra time was spent shooting guns slingshots, wrist rockets, spears, knives, arrows, bolas, and blow guns.) I thought for a minute and I answered: "Shooting is like magic. Without projectiles the effect that I have on the world around me is limited to the length of my finger tips. Give me a good rifle, and I can open a bottle at 200 yards. Or instead of stabbing an animal with a knife that I intend to eat, I have control of its life as far as I can see. Being able to have a purposeful effect on anything in a 300 yard radius makes me feel that I have some semblance of control that is otherwise unobtainable." My only problem with firearms, is that they only offer the ability to destroy. Its too bad that in order to have the same level of effectiveness in a positive way, you have to be Tony Stark.:-D
Great post, very thought provoking.

[Catshooter]

I pretty much agree with the OP, except I would extend the rifle distance to 400 yards, depending.

I disagree with Rocky, a gun is a tool to propel bullets where I want them to go when I want them to. I would take that as a basic definition of what.

The why and the how are fun too!


Cat

[Rocky Raab]

I'll say it again: what some of you are saying is "Why I want/have a gun." You aren't answering "What is a gun?"

Allow me to offer an equally flawed example: What is a car? So I don't have to walk.

The "definition" there says nothing whatever about the nature of a car; instead, it provides a rationale. The rationale could apply equally to a bike, roller skates, or a rickshaw.

Likewise, if you want to control an area, you could do it with a bow, a hand grenade or a flame thrower. So that can not define a gun.

What is it that makes a gun unique? It propels bullets. So that MUST be its definition.

End of pedantic lecture about word definition.

[HangFireW8]

My whole point is that once you have worked up a load for a given gun, you need to stop futsing around and go shoot that gun alot. As long as the load is reliable and does not cause problems, Your proficiency is more important.

This.

Ignoring the "What is a gun"/"What is a gun for" semantics, Randy (the OP) has given voice to the whole point of me getting into Cast Boolits. I was spending too much time shaving 1/4MOA off of a good load, and not enough time shooting.

To shoot enough to master my tools, I needed to reduce the cost of shooting and increase my volume of shooting. Due to my other commitments, time spent shooting is almost a constant. Shooting high volumes of j-words meant rotating guns (to let them cool off) or shooting something that doesn't heat them up as fast... that is, cast boolit loads.

With cast, I can go to the range and fire up to 100 rounds of 30-06 an hour without smelling charred wood. Previously, I would fire a couple of magazines of .22 in between hi-power rifle shots in order to maintain a sane barrel temperature. Now I can shoot my magnums as fast as I care to.

-HF

[geargnasher]

This is starting to remind me of a Robert M. Pirsig book....

So what is the "Quality" of a gun?

Gear

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'll say it again: what some of you are saying is "Why I want/have a gun." You aren't answering "What is a gun?"


"It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is ?" :grin:

Sorry, I couldn't resist quoting the slickest/slimiest US President in recent history.
Jon

[bearcove]

It is a cool machine. That gives you a degree of power over your surroundings.

[ButterNutZ]

There is only two ways that people interact with each other: reason and force. With guns, people only can deal with other people through reason. If my girl is armed, no one will force her to do anything. Same goes for me and you.
But, they are also soooooo much fun!!!

[Canuck Bob]

my guns are for keeping me away from the mundane reallity of everyday living.
so it controls space , in my case the space mentioned above.
have a wonderful out there day. :twisted:[smilie=b::evil:

I agree. The space I control is between my ears. The purposes of my guns are shooting for relaxation and personal pleasure most of the time. The foremost purpose is plinking with small and large bore rifles.

Seriously, a gun is a tool that launches projectiles ranging from wax bullets and bean bags to large artillery nuclear weapons delivery. The purpose is the job the tool is employed to do at the current time. The purpose comes from the tool user. Guns don't kill, people do, is one of our mantras, isn't it?

An Olympic champion is not training for or thinking of controlling space, laying down suppressing fire, or mortal CQ combat. Their whole existense, their driving purpose, revolves around shooting very impressive tiny groups in the dead center of a target. The tool is highly specialized for that job. I would think any fool giving an Olympian shooter reason to ambush them with a 22 would be in serious trouble because there is nothing deadlier than accuracy and a 22 bullet in the back of a head but that is not the purpose of the gun or training. That is the purpose of the athlete turned assasin.

There are far too many gunowners who think just because they own a gun they are armed and dangerous. In other words the gun itself will do the job, it has a purpose and will fulfil it. We've all heard it at the range, "this baby could stop an elephant, or drop an elk at 500 yards". I know I've often added in my head, "sure would, but not with you shooting it".

[Thumbcocker]

I have never held with the view that guns are simply tools. Guns are special and always have been. I have a book with photos of 500 year old sporting guns with engraving and inlays all over them. You don't do that with a hammer or a saw. The ability to be in one place and cause something to happend in another place strikes something deep in human psychology.

Guns make me happy. If I woke up tomorrow and peace, love, brotherhood, vegetarianism, and 4X4 pickup trucks that run on water were teh order of the day I would still shoot and cast boolits because it makes me happy. That is reason enough.

[XWrench3]

while i do agree with Mr. Buchanan's point of veiw, i sincerly do not belive that it is the ONLY valid point of veiw in the country.


For me, they are mostly toys that keep me out of trouble.

for me, this one wraps it up pretty well. i do understand the original post. and i also agree that shooting holes in paper from a solid rest is not how you are going to defend anything, except actual bench rest competition or bragging rights to YOUR GUNS CAPABILITY. YOUR capability is how well you can shoot with no other tools than with what God gave you. and that is what is important when the shi* hits the fan. pesonally, i want 3 GOOD, PROVEN ACCURATE LOADS, for each weapon i own. a gun can do many things, but different loads increase its usefullness.

[44man]

Guns to me and the need for them is I can't fly as fast as a pheasant, I can't run like a cheetah to chase down rabbits or deer, my teeth are not worth a darn, I can't climb trees like a squirrel and I am not strong like a buffalo.
And they are just plain fun! [smilie=l:

[BulletFactory]

I open carry, so for me at least, it keeps the anti gunners and criminals away.

[dverna]

A gun is needed to create empties.

Empties get reloaded to be emptied again. The cycles continues until the hull or case can no longer be filled and new "containers" are needed.

In the process, I find a degree of satisfaction and pleasure unless I do not empty the little ******** as well as hoped. Funny thing is, filling them is always fun.

Don

[Artful]

This is starting to remind me of a Robert M. Pirsig book....

So what is the "Quality" of a gun?

Gear

Interesting Question - Quality comes from several sources for me.

Historical use of the weapon or like weapons -
- Did that Garand go to the Pacific or Europe - has that Mosin Nagant defended Mother Russia, was that 12 ga Grandpa's or was the story of this gun of note in some other way?

Design - Is it a mass produced, Limited production or a specialty one off made just for or by me? Does it hold special interest or feature that makes me go - Ah just looking at it or picking it up.

Construction/Craftsmanship - Is the inletting perfect, the wood nicely figured the Bluing a mile deep, the barrel smooth and straight - or is it a plastic stock with a matte/parkerized metal finish and trigger only a Sargent could love.

Does the gun fit - does it fill your hand - point stright on command - feel alive when you pick it up and send the Boolits on target.

These are Quality attibutes of a firearm to me. [smilie=1:

[MBTcustom]

Thumbcocker has it. short words, and said everything I couldn't.

[onesonek]

I agree with RockyRaab. Beyond that somewhat, as I see it, the OP is more of a MO (Modus Operandi) and or Defense Doctrine. Of which, is more a personal choice in nature, depending on number of things.
Extending that thought somewhat, I do think of guns as tools. Yes one can turn them into pieces of art work, but in the pure sense, they are still tools.
Today, firearms are nothing more than advances in technology. Since the dawn of man, techology has seen advances, starting from sticks and stones for tools with main uses being for, defense and food gathering. Those are still the 2 primary "whys" (mo's) for use of such tools, of the technology today. A third use, would or could be recreation also of course.
One thing that hasn't really changed over the eons, is the nature of mankind itself! Hence, defense is still one of the primary needs or uses, for such tools.

[Olevern]

While I think the OP put things in the best t erms I do agree with the notions put forth.

I saw it as a "YOU are the limiting factor. Ot the gun, not the ammo, not the sights, but YOU.". I agree entirely. Find a load that is pretty accurate then go learn to shoot it. I shoot very little from a bench. A lost all my range time is spent on my feet shooting offhand. I want to learn to may me a better shot with the load in question.

Go back and read what he really said guys. It wasn't necessarily worded the way I would but it had the right message.

I enjoy the pursuit of getting the most possible out of a rifle or pistol.

I have already shot over my lifetime enough to have developed my technique in position shooting and benchrest. Offhand I am pretty good but not the best , but am ok with that.

Now, when I get a new to me rifle, I go over it and check for obvious faults in bedding, crown, trigger pull etc. I fix what needs fixing. I then do a chamber cast and record dimensions. Next, to the reloading bench and load development. If I am unable to get the gun to shoot to my expectations (1/2 inch 100 yd groups with most modern, bolt actions) I will rebed, have it re-crowned) retest, and, if unsatisfied, set the gun aside for trade matl.

lever actions, same drill with less expectations; pistols and revolvers, shorter distance (except for 'tenders and bolt action pistols) and lesser expectations.

If a gun won't shoot, it goes away, no matter how pretty. Pretty is as pretty does.

Had a beautiful single shot 1885 copy in 22 hornet (Wicliff)which shot patterns of 6-8 inches at 100 yds. Wasn't the bedding or crown, just a poor barrel. Even though it was a very handsom firearm, with a figure in the stock to die for, it got sold to someone at a loss who wanted the action for a custom.

I do have guns for home and personal protection, they serve their purpose, but are not my passion nor are these pursuits my sole reason for owning firearms.

As a retired LEO who ran a state requalification range and held instructor status for many years I remain proficient in the arts of 'controlling my space' as witnessed by my annual retired LEO required qualification (for concealed weapon carry), but this is not my firearms focus at this point in my life.

[wallenba]

Primarily, when at home, my guns are for defending my home. When afield, hopefully putting a little fresh, unadulterated meat on the table. Mostly though, at my age with a lifetime of injuries that have left my shoulder and back a painful mess with arthritis creeping in for final insult, it is a passtime. I can't play golf very well anymore or go bowling or water skiing...but I can still shoot, and da&% well too.
Reloading and casting are a pleasure when I can't get out, and learning new depths of the craft here at castboolits is rewarding.
Hitting a bullseye to me is no different than shooting under par, or bowling a 300 game. It's what I do now. They help keep me sane.

[bearcove]

According to my wife the sanity part is debatable, at least in my case.