Gas-Check Alternatives (Card Wad, Lube Wad, etc.) for PB boolits...DO THEY WORK??

[Southern Shooter]

I have read various inconclusive statements and opinions about gas-check alternatives ( card wad, lube wad, dental wax, etc. ) used on PLAIN-BASE boolits.

Does anyone have substantial experience with such alternatives? Were they effective in sealing off the gas and preventing it from escaping around the boolit? If effective, what did you use??

I am most specifically interested in information related to heavy .45 caliber bullets ( i.e., 360 grains) being pushed at 1,000 FPS - 1,200 FPS.

Thank you.

[beagle]

I've tinkered over the years with this subject and to be truthful, I haven't found a reliable alternative. I have a .458 wad punch and have tried the poly plastics, aluminum, sticky aluminum tape and various thicknesses of cardboard, cork and about anything I can think of and nothing was satisfactory for my purposes and gave me the results I was looking for. I know that others have had successes but I haven't.

I also tried fillers in the form of polyester sheeting and that gave good results but also has the stigma of a potential ringed chamber.

I've been using of of Pat Marlins .35PB gas check dies and this is the way to go on base protection. I need to get a .45 set but haven't so far.

Now, this is just my opinion and my results. Other's experiences may vary./beagle

[onondaga]

I have extensively tested 340 grain PLAIN BASE boolits in the .458 Win Mag.

Your velocity goal of 1000 to 1200 fps is not even challenging if this is for a rifle. Plain base boolits in 45 caliber rifles at those speeds rarely present enough pressure to cause gas jetting and inaccuracy unless you have incorrectly measured your bore and boolits and you don't have a boolit big enough to seal your bore.

Alloy selection at that loading level is not critical either with a rifle. Wheel weight will be fine. Again , the fit is critical.

My bore slugs at .4570" with the slug measured with a Starrett micrometer. My boolits drop at .460" and I size them to .459". I heartily recommend this +.002" over groove to groove bore diameter for a boolit size and even up to +.003" or you are wasting your time trying to get accuracy with cast boolits in 45 caliber rifles.

Without a filler, I use Accurate 5744 to speeds of 1750 fps with boolits cast from BHN 14 Lyman #2 alloy and get adequate hunting accuracy with <2 Inch groups at 50 yards.

With a filler, BPI original, and H4895 At 53.3 grains, my rifle will group less than 1 inch consistently and 1610 fps for my self or my grandson. The BPI original is a compressible ground high heat plastic used as a buckshot buffer and also as a ballistic filler in reduced rifle and pistol loads in straight walled cartridges. This particular filler acts as a quasi gas check to medium pressure levels and effectively blocks gas jetting for an extended pressure range with plain base boolits.

My loads have the powder topped with filler to 1/8 inch of the case mouth and the filler/powder is compressed upon seating the boolit.. Load workup needs to include adding the weight of the filler used to the boolit weight for checking load pressure safety guidelines but rarely is a problem as the filler is so light in weight.

My source for BPI Original:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=695248

My results are very conclusive for over 5000 rounds in .458 Win Mag. No hang fires, no detonations and good accuracy with BPI Original Filler, H4895 burning cleanly in the compressed load with filler and most importantly a boolit fit of +.002 over groove to groove bore diameter. In all loads, bullet lube has been either LLA or 45:45:10 Recluse tumble lube

If you are getting gas escaping around the boolit (jetting) at 1000- 1200 fps in a rifle, your boolits are too small, plain and simple. The use of a dial gauge caliper instead of a Starrett micrometer for measuring slugs and a poor slugging technique is the most common cause of poor boolit fit.

If your question centers on a pistol cartridge in a revolver, the measurements are much more complex to get a good boolit fit and there are other experts that can help you better than I can in that area. If you are shooting a 45-70, etc , 450 marlin, even a 45 colt in a rifle or single shot pistol, You should be answered.

Gary

[44man]

I've tinkered over the years with this subject and to be truthful, I haven't found a reliable alternative. I have a .458 wad punch and have tried the poly plastics, aluminum, sticky aluminum tape and various thicknesses of cardboard, cork and about anything I can think of and nothing was satisfactory for my purposes and gave me the results I was looking for. I know that others have had successes but I haven't.

I also tried fillers in the form of polyester sheeting and that gave good results but also has the stigma of a potential ringed chamber.

I've been using of of Pat Marlins .35PB gas check dies and this is the way to go on base protection. I need to get a .45 set but haven't so far.

Now, this is just my opinion and my results. Other's experiences may vary./beagle
This is correct. The problem is that most do not know what a gas check is for. It is to arrest skid so gas channels are not opened.
The boolit base itself needs NO PROTECTION!
Wads are used with BP to fill space with lower loads that will not reach the boolit base.
Fillers are to keep powder near the primer.

[Southern Shooter]

Hello Folks,

By the way, in the case here, a revolver would be used. Of course, this would be a general woods and defensive gun...short distance like 25 yards or less.

Thanks

[onondaga]

Revolver: Some shooters will never get great accuracy with a revolver and cast boolits while many are very successful. It really does depend on measurements, fit and alloy but in a different way than rifles. The best competitive revolver/cast boolit shooters have taken chamber castings for each cylinder and for their barrels also. . The cylinder throat area and bore need a measurement differential to be optimum for accuracy with cast boolits. This is critical. Many posts have been here on CastBoolits and I hope one of the experts on revolvers will chime in and provide you with links to some good posts on the subject.

Gary

[44man]

Revolvers are my game and a PB will equal any bullet or boolit. Nothing is needed on the base or under it. I have taken PB to 1800 fps in revolvers.

[Harter66]

The trick w/revolvers is to match the cylinder throats and that those are at least as large as the bore.I've a RBH in 45 Colts that I've shot to 1100 fps w/o issue w/a LEE 452-255 RNFP . It drops at 454 the largest throat is 454 and the bore is 451 . As for GCs I've not needed any there. I've also fiddled w/paper,wad cards,and such w/o success.

[Southern Shooter]

No gas-check needed? Is the trick to that fit? Lube?

Measurements
Bore: .452
Cylinder Throats ranged from: .455-.456

As of this point I am looking at getting a the Accurate Mold #45-360-C at a .456 diameter.

Thanks

[turbo1889]

I have had good luck using 36-cal nitro hard cards in a couple 357-mag and 357-max carbine loads using a plain base boolit.

I think, however, that it had much more to do with the fact that their addition to the loads changed the pressure curve of the load (RSI pressure trace system on 357-max carbine) then any protection they might have given the base of the boolit. Replacing the "air bubble" in the cartridge with the nitro cards as filler apparently can make a significant change in the powder burn cycle in some loads. The powders in question were AA1680 and AA2230 in the magnum and maximum cartridges respectively and the boolit was an AM#36-210C.

[Bret4207]

My limited experience is about like Beagles. I'll be watching this thread to see what else pops up. If someone has something that works with the higher pressure smaller bore cartridges (30-30/308/8mm/35's) I'm interested.

[JeffinNZ]

1850fps with a plain base HP ACWW 31133 using a LDPE wad ex .32-20 at 50m.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN1987.jpg

[Wayne Smith]

No gas-check needed? Is the trick to that fit? Lube?

Measurements
Bore: .452
Cylinder Throats ranged from: .455-.456

As of this point I am looking at getting a the Accurate Mold #45-360-C at a .456 diameter.

Thanks

Do a search for 44Man's posts and threads. You will get a graduate education in casting and loading for revolvers.

[44man]

No gas-check needed? Is the trick to that fit? Lube?

Measurements
Bore: .452
Cylinder Throats ranged from: .455-.456

As of this point I am looking at getting a the Accurate Mold #45-360-C at a .456 diameter.

Thanks
Your throats are quite large for the bore. That is always a problem.
I am not sure what size would work best for you. Your problem is not a good seal at the bore but a straight start to the bore.
My .44 has .4324" throats, .430" groove and I have shot .430" boolits with great accuracy by having alignment as close as I could get. But .432" boolits are easier to work with.
I would try all from .453" to .455". Maybe neck size brass to keep it more inline.
The primary reason to have throat size booilts is to aim them down the center of the bore.

[44man]

1850fps with a plain base HP ACWW 31133 using a LDPE wad ex .32-20 at 50m.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN1987.jpg
WAS IT THE WAD??? Good shooting though. You need a back to back test. We have gone to every kind of wad with BP to none at all with no difference. The only thing with BP is there must be no more then .020" gap to the boolit. Of course, loads must change as wads are changed or dropped. But a bare boolit base shoots too.
As BP loads are reduced, you need to fill the space. I will never believe the wad is to protect a base. A wad will never arrest skid either.
It is possible for some materials to seal gas, maybe LDPE will but I never proved it and just don't know.
I have shot thousands of plastic shotgun wads that show gas leakage past the seal.
A thick sabot works as a seal and I wonder about the bottom half as a wad under a boolit.

[geargnasher]

If you balance boolit alloy toughness with peak pressure and rate of pressure build, and get a good fit, you won't experience leading unless something is wacky with thread choke or or other bore restrictions.

Gear