Exp die size

[randyrat]

I need a .430- .429 expander die for a Lyman die.. All I need is the inners. Where can I find this? The die I have measures .427 .........Normally I use .430 cast boolits so I think a .430 would work right? ( There is some spring back in the brass)

My expander die is too small, the loaded boolits look like pregnant hot dog.

[oneokie]

Know a machinist?

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1070836&postcount=14

[44man]

This is a very hard call for me. It depends on your lead hardness. Soft needs more brass expansion but you give up case tension, primers that force out boolits before ignition, etc.
I want to see the boolit base and even an indication of the GG's through the brass without the brass sizing down the boolit. I want the boolit to open the brass, never a slip fit.
Going softer and softer with more and more brass expansion opens cans of worms I never want to deal with. Some of those worms have teeth.
I am not smart enough to shoot soft lead and hate only noise from my guns.

[deltaenterprizes]

I would have at least .001'' press fit, I can make that for you.

[Char-Gar]

I was shooting with Jim Taylor once and is one heck of a pistol shot with very accurate loads. I was shooting some of his loads and they look like a snake that had swallowed a pig. He told me his secret was not to use an expanded at all. Just bell the case and set the bullets. He felt all of than tension on the bullet was a big help. I am certain his bullets were not butter soft.

After than I stopped worrying about neck expansion. As long as the bullet is not deformed..firgit it! I just use whatever comes with the die set and don't look back. Here again, it is my opinion that we often over think this issue.

[felix]

Yep, the more octane in the gas, the more compression is needed. Compression is a cheap way of advancing the effective timing of fire in any kind of piston type of "engine". ... felix

[Wayne Smith]

PM Buckshot, Rick will make what you need if Lyman doesn't carry one.

[fecmech]

Lyman carries standard size "M" die ends, I bought some last year.

[RobS]

Lyman's won't get you there (.430) unless you buy larger and mill it down yourself; there 44 mag spud is .427 with a .431 step. I've done this with a 45 cal rifle and turned it down for my 45 cal revolver loads and soft HP loads for my 45 auto.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

Also they don't even make the larger 45 cal pistol spud (45 P)

The size you need will depend on the powders you intend to work with and the alloy hardness of the boolits you are going to put down in the case.

[44man]

Lyman's won't get you there (.430) unless you buy larger and mill it down yourself; there 44 mag spud is .427 with a .431 step. I've done this with a 45 cal rifle and turned it down for my 45 cal revolver loads and soft HP loads for my 45 auto.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

Also they don't even make the larger 45 cal pistol spud (45 P)

The size you need will depend on the powders you intend to work with and the alloy hardness of the boolits you are going to put down in the case.
The "M" die step can make it easier to start boolits but it takes away half the case tension.
Notice it is wider at the top of the brass yet will size boolit bases if too soft. You do not want smaller bases. It is a solution to a non existing problem and can make things worse.
Same as the neck size Lyman die I bought for my 45-70 BPCR. Boolits will fall in the necks so I have no control over expansion. It should at least make necks smaller.

[RobS]

Cases that swage down a boolit are definitely not the best situation for accuracy no doubt and leading is a common ends. There are different thoughts to getting the boolit into the case with swaging it down which is a very important aspect to successful cast boolit shooting. There are other parts to it as well though. Depending on the powder used, the needed case tension for such powder and the boolit alloy itself dictates what needs to be done to keep the base of the boolit from being smaller than intended.

I run my 454 Casull loads with quicker for caliber powders (Herco, HS-7, AA#7 etc.) to the next step in powders AA#9 & 2400 and then off into the slower end of 4227 and H110. I load them with a case expander, without an expander and with different alloy hardness depending on what I'm after. If a person cast a boolit hard/tough enough to not swage down with just belling of the case mouth then there is often times very good success and even more so if a person uses a soft lube. Case neck tension with this scenario is always good and it won't matter what powder a person throws in the case.

The expander dies can keep a boolit from being swaged down but can create issues with inconsistent ignition if too large, especially with the slower ball powders. Many will try and put a huge crimp on that rings the brass mouth but this in my experience has less abilities to keeping the boolit in the case vs a normal or appropriate crimp. Neck tension is prominently what keeps the boolit in place after all. Neck tension becomes more of a concern with the slower powders due to the dangers of having a round not fully igniting and lodging a boolit somewhere in the barrel. Poor neck tension for powder/boolit combo's often times leaves a target with less than desirable outcomes as well.

A person can get by with less neck tension and softer boolits when using quicker powders but only to a certain point. If a person is trying to reach upper velocities with quick powders then deformation of the base of a softer boolit is likely when it starts its journey down the barrel. This can also end with possible leading and less than desirable accuracy.

It's all relative to what a person wants to do. We don’t know exactly what randyrat is doing or up to but we’re getting him there I think.

[randyrat]

Very simple goal= Use 310 gr GC boolits over 10 grs of Unique using a Super Red Hawk.
I figured the boolit was swaged down a bit by such a small expander die. Accuracy is being stubborn with anything under 9 grs of Unique. Maybe I need to rethink this?

[white eagle]

Here again, it is my opinion that we often over think this issue.

Ya think !

[44man]

Very simple goal= Use 310 gr GC boolits over 10 grs of Unique using a Super Red Hawk.
I figured the boolit was swaged down a bit by such a small expander die. Accuracy is being stubborn with anything under 9 grs of Unique. Maybe I need to rethink this?
You are trying to reach 296 velocities with Unique and a soft boolit.
Make the 310 from water dropped WW's, aged enough to harden, .432 diameter with a soft lube like Felix.
Put 21.5 gr of 296 behind it with a Fed 150 spark.
Don't blame me if it does not shoot good enough to hit beer cans at 200 yards.

[RobS]

Very simple goal= Use 310 gr GC boolits over 10 grs of Unique using a Super Red Hawk.
I figured the boolit was swaged down a bit by such a small expander die. Accuracy is being stubborn with anything under 9 grs of Unique. Maybe I need to rethink this?

The GC will keep the boolit from swaging down in most instances. The base of the boolit takes most of the stress in seating unless your seating die and crimp die further the issue. I never even worry about a GC boolit swaging down since my seat and crimp dies don't creat additional problems for the boolit.

[RobS]

randyrat:
So, so accuracy with your less than 9 grain Unique load is more than likely the lower velocities for the heavier/longer boolit in combination with your 1:20" twist rate barrel. I have the same issues when running 340 grain boolits out of my SRH 454 Casull, 1:24" twist. Achieving the accuracy I want I need a minimum of 1,100 fps and it only get better from there. The 340 is a PB design so it's a bit trickier when using the quicker powders for 1,100 fps but easy at 1200 fps and beyond with the slower powders.

[randyrat]

Yeah, I think 44Man is right. I gotta quit with the Unique. I like the big slam of the 44 I might as well use the right powder for the 310 gr boolit..

OK what about the 240 SWC plain base using Unique. Do I need to harden them up to load them in tight brass

[RobS]

I can't tell you for sure because I don't know what your sizing die is resizing your brass to nor do I know your expander die's diameter but an aged, air cooled WW boolit should be hard enough and not swage down with just a flare on the case. The boolits are short enough that they will be on the top 1/4 of the brass when seated so less brass tension. The further down the boolit is seated the thicker the brass becomes and the smaller the inside diameter so with more surface area of the boolit and the tighter inside diameter equates to more tension.

As to what is more accurate, if the boolit is coming out of the case the right diameter (pull a dummy round to varify) then only your gun will give you the final word as to a harder or softer boolit. Many here shoot air cooled WW alloy 240/250 SWC's or Keiths with no issues.

[nanuk]

would it make sense to use a expander diameter that is just one thou over the size that swages the boolit down?

I guess that would take several diameters to try.

go smaller and smaller until you notice a change on boolit size, and then go back to the last diameter.

that way you would have the max tension without distortion.

[randyrat]

Right now I have an expander die that measures .427(.4265 with one caliper) I'm using boolits .430 to .431
I figured .429 to .430 expander die would do the trick.

If I use a .431 boolit and a .429 EXP die plus some spring back in the brass, I would of thought that would be perfect. Contrary to my thoughts, I may be better off staying with as much neck/brass tension as possible and keep the .427 EXP die.

From the info gathered here, crimp is not to be totally depended on alone.

[44man]

RobS has a good grip on things. The tapered brass that gets thicker the deeper a boolit is seated means harder lead to open the brass down there. It is folly to load soft lead like that.
I do not shoot many light boolits with fast powders but I have worked with them a lot testing what they need. Mostly the .44 and .45. I don't do the larger guns with light boolits or light loads with heavy ones because their purpose is to kill animals.
I have found fast powders need HARDER boolits for accuracy. The smallest groups with a 240 to 250 gr in the .44 at 50 yards using Unique and 231 was at 28 to 30 BHN. That held true from 7 to 10 gr.
Even water dropping WW boolits to 22 BHN shot poorer groups.
You will hear over and over to go softer and softer, but not from me. Not for accuracy! Over 56 years fooling with revolvers made me simplify it and shoot the smallest groups that I ever was able to do. You might want to modify hardness for hunting depending on the velocity of your gun.
You can buy very hard boolits that shoot poor and lead the bore but I have found most are too small to fit the gun. Laser Cast never worked for me. There is also no need to go harder then what shoots the best.
I used to believe that light loads of fast powder was low pressure until I found the pressure hits the boolit all at once. Trying to make a boolit go from zero to full velocity in inches is destructive.
This is one test between 22 and 28 BHN.

[randyrat]

Very interesting/ good info Thanks.

Now this is another reason I don't make 50,000 boolits up ahead until I am positive they will be correct for the gun I use them in.

I have not tried real hard boolits yet. In fact, I haven't dipped into my Lino/mono type stash in a long time.

Back to the casting pot I go and give it a whirl.

[RobS]

The Lino and Mono will get you a hard boolit but a very brittle one. Working an upper 20 BHN boolit with alloying alone will have you a boolit that can crack if it hits the floor. Heat treating is a better route if you want to run harder. The Lee 310 GC design you have will give you a lot of fudge room since the check makes a harder base and helps negate boolit skid as well as protects the base from gas blow-by.

As I mentioned in a previous post, PB designs, i.e. your 240 grain SWC, depend more so on the powder/boolit combo and even the firearm itself. 45 revolvers usually have thinner rifling where as 44 mag revolver rifling is typically wider which can make them an easier gun to shoot cast from, especially when a person is throttling higher pressures/velocities in conjunction with quicker powders.

My SRH will not shoot beans with the 340 unless the velocities are up near 1100 fps and beyond. The only powders (on the quicker side) that will provide this and not slam the boolit out of the gate and create skidding is HS-7, discontinued and I'm almost out, and AA#7. I am limited to velocity in reference to desired accuracy with my gun which is understood. The powder/boolit combo is the pieces of the puzzle that I have to fit together.

Now, if I had a 1:16" twist such as most 45 Colts or even the new BFR 454 Casulls then I could come down on the velocity and still find the accuracy I'm after which means I could potentially use a quicker powder while getting "there" with the same 18 BHN, heat treated WW boolit I'm using now. Another way to look at it, I could use the same powders, HS-7 or AA#7, reduce the charge to bring the pressure/velocity down and in turn utilize a softer boolit. All things considered if the supposed 1:16" twist revolver had the same bore condition, cylinder gap etc. as what I have now.

There are many ways to twist an arm here and many people just use the slower powders to get the job done which gives a wider range of flexibility as it relates to boolit hardness. It's been said here many times, each gun is different and plays a fiddle to what it likes best.

[mroliver77]

I have done some limited testing and have got the same results as others. With different brass and caliber changing the outcome a bit I have found that after a .002 - .003" opening up of the brass it stretches resulting in .002 - .003 of "fit" or interference. I cannot see where any more "fit" than this would make a difference in boolit "pull". Using this theory I have found .002" - .003" "fit" to shoot no better than a larger difference of boolit to case neck measurement. I do find much better case life.

I too have shot with Jim Taylor. While the subject of case pull ever came up I was impressed with his shooting! I got to shoot his USFA .44 special built for the "Shootist" club. What a jewel! (The gun and Jim!) I miss him since his move to Africa!

Jay

[randyrat]

Well there is another way to play the violin. Load the 310 gr to the a longer OAL. this boolit has 2 crimp grooves .10" apart. Dang near 1/2 of the boolit is hanging out when I use the longer OAL groove.

Yeah, there are ramifications to this also, but there is less boolit inside and less boolit getting squished by tight brass.... Good thing it's a SRH with the longer cylinders. I'll have to watch for any boolit creep from recoil.

[geargnasher]

You are trying to reach 296 velocities with Unique and a soft boolit.
Make the 310 from water dropped WW's, aged enough to harden, .432 diameter with a soft lube like Felix.
Put 21.5 gr of 296 behind it with a Fed 150 spark.
Don't blame me if it does not shoot good enough to hit beer cans at 200 yards. Yup. I like softer boolits most of the time, but there are times they really shine, and I discovered this for myself after taking some very similar advice from 44man a couple of years ago.


The GC will keep the boolit from swaging down in most instances. The base of the boolit takes most of the stress in seating unless your seating die and crimp die further the issue. I never even worry about a GC boolit swaging down since my seat and crimp dies don't creat additional problems for the boolit. Once you get to the point of WDWW and especially gas checks, the boolit swaging issue is moot. Just load them like J-words with any common die set. You might like Hornady dies better than Lee, just in case you're using Lee carbide sizers that tend to overwork the brass near the case head.


I was shooting with Jim Taylor once and is one heck of a pistol shot with very accurate loads. I was shooting some of his loads and they look like a snake that had swallowed a pig. He told me his secret was not to use an expanded at all. Just bell the case and set the bullets. He felt all of than tension on the bullet was a big help. I am certain his bullets were not butter soft.

After than I stopped worrying about neck expansion. As long as the bullet is not deformed..firgit it! I just use whatever comes with the die set and don't look back. Here again, it is my opinion that we often over think this issue.

I have to agree 100% with Chargar on this. I'm a cheapskate and like to maximize the life of my brass, so I go for a sizer that doesn't overdo it in the first place, but finding one is hit-and-miss. Randy, I think for the most part this thread is a discussion of a problem that doesn't yet exist. If the boolits get swaged when seated, make them harder, I'll bet you'll need harder anyway if you want that gun to shoot to it's best potential. If you want to make a .44 special out of it and shoot really soft boolits at 800 fps, THEN you might worry about a larger expander and expanding to only .002" press-fit.

Neck tension is important, having the right amount for the application is a balance. One of the many things that should be balanced for best results. Brass can only hold about three thousandths of tension at best, the elastic limit is reached fairly quickly, so there really isn't anything like seven thousandths tension on a .44. By the time the boolit stretches it out it will only spring back about .002-3" anyway. Load 'em and see how they do. Worry about it only if you need to.

Gear

[44man]

Gear is correct again and again, like he always is! [smilie=2:
Tension per say is not too important as long as the boolit is held until full ignition and does not creep out under recoil.
You can have some cases with a little lighter boolit tension and they will shoot great. So will the tighter ones but you just cant mix them.
I like hornady dies because the expander is short and does not expand past boolit depth, half the boolit will enter unexpanded brass. A soft boolit will get sized at the base instead of forcing the brass open. That extra tight fit helps even out case to case brass differences but the boolit must resist sizing.
I had special BR dies made for the .44 that uses collars and no expander. I have all diameters of collars like the Redding rifle dies.
It does work but some brass just rebounds more then others so it is still a problem getting all tension even. I even had a tool made to measure rebound or spring back. What a pain but then I was a little nuts and still am! [smilie=1:
RCBS .44 dies always made the worst loads because the expanders were too long and large. They did change the .45 Colt expander for better tension. I don't trust Lyman or Lee.
I bought Hornady dies to try and things turned around, they do as well as my BR dies. They were made for jacketed so I will not load any alloy, even 50-50 without heat treating or water dropping.
My accuracy increased leaps and bounds but if I want to shoot just groups, I still sort by seating pressure.
Soft can be shot and brass can be opened to stop damage. But if you want pure accuracy and shoot 1" or less at 50 yards 1" or less at 100 with a revolver, I doubt it could be done. I can't and often ask to be shown but that rubs a few wrong when they think I challenge their shooting. Not fun for me either, I don't want to do that.
I have worked very, very hard with the .44 for many years yet I am still not happy, my old SBH still can't better 3/4" at 50 yards. The SRH I had would do 1/2". My 45-70 BFR has put 5 shots in 5/16" and three shots in 1/4".
I have tried for years to tell you fellas that the very first problem is your brass in a revolver and how you prepare it. Even the dies you use might not allow accuracy. After all these years, I still can't tell if one piece of brass will shoot the same as the last. It is the metal structure and it changes as you load and shoot the stuff.
Next is your alloy and what the brass does to it.
Then your powder choice and what it does to the boolit.
Then the primer, primer pressure and ignition.
It is not easy and is why I only tell you to try everything. Eliminate all failures.
If your dies are the problem, never keep pounding away expecting better. It is just so hard to explain that it is not YOU, it might be what you use. Even a decent Ruger will shoot but a bad gun will never shoot. Dump it only after doing all the work first. What you consider a slug might be what you do at the loading bench. Can you see the problems we face when I and everyone else here tries to help? You just live too far away.