Lead Fumes let's settle this.

[mroliver77]

Over the years I have seen guys say that one needs to be carefull of the lead fumes given off by molten lead. There were various authorities also that claimed bunk on this. I did some searching and from all I could find there are no fumes from lead unless it is very very hot. I was reading Glens F's book and he referred to lead fumes. He is often mentioned as THE authority on casting. So does anybody know for sure and can this be documented?
TIA
Jay

[Trey45]

Lead must boil to produce fumes. Lead isn't boiling at casting temperatures. That's all I know, and all I care to know about it.

[Marlin Junky]

I'd also like to know the facts but until I do, it's better to be safe than sorry. I understand that the vapor pressure of molten lead is virtually non existent at normal casting temperatures; however, while fluxing, perhaps lead oxide particles may become airborne... perhaps that is Glen's concern. Since he is a chemist, I would tend to heed his advice with respect to adequate ventilation. I've never had my blood checked specifically for Pb.

MJ

[sffar]

My understanding is that there are no fumes from casting lead, and so I don't worry about that. But when fluxing, and certainly when smelting/alloying there are impurities and obvious fumes from smoke that is seems prudent to keep upwind of, or ventilate to get rid of. Maybe those are the kind of fumes Glen F. is referring to.

[462]

This has been discussed before. In one thread, a member with the appropriate credentials said that lead fumes are non-existent below 1200-degrees Farenheit. I have read this, elsewhere, too.

[jsizemore]

When folks were posting pix of their indoor casting enclosures, I started an internet search of the vaporization question (at least in my mind). I found that lead starts to vaporive at about 1600*F but lead oxide starts at 820*F. Since our tin-pb alloys start to oxidize at 750*F, at least the tin, then it doesn't seem to be any stretch of the imagination that some lead oxide is also taking place. So I've kept my casting temp below 700*F (usually 650-675) and kept the melt fluxed and covered. I cast when and where I took a notion.

Then I read about the arsenic. Uh-oh, now I messed up casting anywhere. Well, arsenic sublimates (means goes from solid to gas without a liquid state in between) at 1137*F. I'm ok there but then I remember that there has to be an oxide version since it always seems to happen. Sure enough, arsenic oxide. Well it vaporizes at 869*F.

So I seem to be safe. At least with what I'm aware of. Haven't made up my mind about casting without a hood inside.

[lwknight]

Almost all heavy metal poisoning cases are related to ingestion.
Do not chew on window sills of old buildings.
Do not put anything into your mouth ( gum , tobacco , supper ,etc ) after handling lead till you thoroughly wash your hands with soap and water also using a scouring pad helps a lot.

[deltaenterprizes]

Lead dust was the source of the lead I ingested by breathing it that caused my lead level to rise to 37 mg/dl. I was going through 3000 lbs every 2 months.
The source was a bullet collator that had a slot in the bottom of the bowl nose high. Once this was identified as the source and a dust collector was mounted to catch particles instead of letting them go airborne my level dropped quickly. I also had 3 automatic casters running in the same room at the same time with 40 lb pots on each one with vent hoods over the machines.

The lead dust was the problem, not fumes.

[Jim]

MSD for lead (http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927204)

See section 9.

[lurch]

I'm no chemist, but I look at it this way. The amount of vapors put off from a liquid are primarily determined by the vapor pressure of the liquid in question and the pressure at the surface of the liquid. The vapor pressure of a liquid is dependent on temperature of the liquid. For lead the vapor pressure in the molten state has been determined and can be seen here:

http://www.powerstream.com/z/vapor-press1-big.png

Say for example that the melt is at 1000*F - in excess of any reasonable casting temperature. That translates to about 538*C or 811*K. From the chart, the vapor pressure of lead at that temperature is on the order of 0.0000001 (10^-7 in case I miscounted the 0's) atmospheres. Boiling would be a vapor pressure of 1 atmosphere. With a vapor pressure that low, the amount of lead vapor coming off the melt is extremely small and what does come off I have been told (posted here somewhere I believe) is fairly well constrained to the area near the surface of the melt, but again, I'm no chemist.

Another perspective can be had based on what standards are at my workplace (major semiconductor manufacturer). In the labs, the safety folks are completely anal about everything, to the point of absolute ridiculousness in some cases. Lead exposure is one of the top priorities. The soldering iron temperatures are all checked and confirmed to be at most 800*F to limit exposure to vapors for a person soldering eight hours a day, five days a week, for their entire career. If there was any potential for measurable lead exposure at this temperature the maximum iron temperature would be lower - guaranteed. This is higher than most all casting is done and I don't think many folks spend that much time with their lead pot.

Given these two reference points, I am very comfortable not worrying about lead vapors while casting. That said, I do use decent ventilation to carry away smoke from fluxing operations and am careful about cleaning the crud out of the pot when it becomes necessary. The dust produced can contain lead oxide and it would not be good to breathe this. No food or drink is allowed while casting and I always wash up afterwards. Others can do as they so choose.

[Rockydog]

The only person I've known in my entire life that had lead poisoning issues was a bridge sandblaster. This was in the 1970s and he was blasting off paint that contained lead from the 40s and 50s. At that time Personal Protective Equipment was sorely lacking. Probably a bandana around his nose. At any rate dust was the cause. I worry more about the lead styphenate dust in my used tumbler media than fumes from lead. Fumes from other sources while casting/smelting are a different story. Breathing smoke from stick on WW tape, valve caps etc. can't do one any good. RD

[cbrick]

I emailed a heads up to this thread to Glen. Be interesting what he has to say if he responds.

Rick

[cbrick]

I worry more about the lead styphenate dust in my used tumbler media than fumes from lead. RD

Yep, same here.

Rick

[geargnasher]

+1 on the tumbler dust, that's the biggest concern for most of us. The physical nature of lead precludes the average caster from being exposed to "vapors" at normal casting temperatures, although some particulate dust will abound in the casting area, if you're curious how much, get some color-indicating wipes, it will surpise you how much lead contamination is on the surfaces around a well-used casting pot. I think most of this "dust" is carried into the air with soot from fluxing smoke, and some settles around the casting area. If it were vapors and light enough to exit the pot, it would be on the ceiling, not on the table.

Gear

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Several threads have addressed this subject.
Do a thread search if you need more info than is already stated above. The info listed here alone should calm your concerns.

I have been casting since the late 1960"s, & have never had lead poisoning. Follow the points listed above & you will have no problem.
One point has not been made.

When smelting to refine your TW it is the other **** rubber,gum, plastic paint fumes that are more likely to do you harm. Smelting/Refining produces more varied & potentially harmful vapors/fumes than casting ever did. :Fire::Fire:

[lwknight]

I second the " Staying out of the smoke" for sure. There is no telling what is getting burned inthe smelting pot. Could be some really wicked chemicals reacting there.

[Glen]

Lead does not have to be boiling to create fumes, just like water doesn't have to be boiling to evaporate. Molten lead does have a very real vapor pressure and it can get into your system if you are casting without adequate ventilation. More importantly, if you are casting with WW alloy, which has a small amount of arsenic in it, there are certain oxides of arsenic that boil well below typical casting temperatures, thereby insuring that they will boil off and be easily inhaled. Be smart, use good ventilation. Casting without good ventilation is simply nominating yourself for the Darwin Award.

PS -- I agree about the lead styphnate residues...

[leadman]

My bll went up last year so I bought a couple of lead test kits to locate the source. These are the ampules (sp) that you squeeze to release the test fluid onto the cotton swab.
I never set my lead pot temp. for over 800' and smelted in a different area.
I found lead when I swabbed the wood around my lead pot up to a line about 3" on my side of the pot. This was wood fresh from HD that I built my "casting closet" out of. I tested some leftover scraps of this wood and they tested negative for the lead. I had been using a fan behind me but when I found where the lead was I installed a 20" box fan on the far side of the pot to pull the fumes away from me.
I attached a piece of aluminum to my shirt on my chest that I tested for lead, then cast for about 3 or 4 hours. When I restested there was no lead on the plate. The box fan tested positive for lead after the casting session.
I was an OSHA certified hazardous waste worker for awhile while working for a major city and if I would have found this in a workplace it would have cause for some clean-up and changes.
There is also a warning in Lyman's 3rd Edition manual about lead dust in the casting area.

Test kits are simple and easy to use and run from about $10 to $20. If you want to know if there is lead in your casting area buy a kit and test it.

[JIMinPHX]

Lead does oxidize in common atmosphere, at normal casting temperature. I can see the oxide scum form on the top of the melt. The stuff that worries me, is oxide powders getting up into the air. From what I've read, lead oxide powder is more toxic than lead itself. Oxides of antimony & arsenic are bad characters too. I don't know about tin.

Perhaps, if you cover the top of the melt with borax, or charcoal or some other substance, & use a bottom pour pot, it might help to keep that stuff under control. I cast from an open top pot, so that's not my situation.

As far as I know, casting should be done in a well ventilated area. If someone can authoritatively prove that to be bunk, that would be good news to me. I would like to be able to have an indoor casting area when it's 110F+ here in Phoenix. In the mean time, I'll keep casting outdoors & upwind of the pot.

[maglvr]

I'll worry more about all the mercury the school science teachers poured in our palms, for us to play with! ;)

[prs]

I quit using a dry tumbler and wet tumble now with detergent and citric acid solution.

prs

[Marlin Junky]

Even though I cast in the garage with a couple of the doors open for cross ventilation, I'm going to start wearing a mask while fluxing, which is just before I start pouring and possibly in the middle of the casting session assuming the oxides get to the point where they start appearing in my boolits (which is not all that often because of my pouring technique). Perhaps someone can tell me (perhaps Glen) if those silly looking masks the hygienists wear will work... how about a wet rag over the mouth and nose? Can I take the mask off after the smoke has cleared? Do I need to call OSHA before returning to my garage after each flux? I can't afford health insurance any more, Obama... please help me! :bigsmyl2:

I am serious about the masks, though.

MJ

P.S. OK, I just thought of another question or two: Is the action of stirring the melt more or less conducive to expelling lead oxides into the air than the rising hot air from burning flux? Here's another: Do the lead oxide particles attach themselves to smoke molecules? I've definitely inhaled my share of smoke from burning paraffin over the last 30 odd years. I tell you what though, when I flux, it looks like someone has just lit a barbeque with too much lighter fluid and I stand as far back as that long handle on my Rowell#2 will allow. I always have a fire extinguisher near by but in three or four decades of casting, I've never needed it.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

No joke on the mercury! We used to do that. It was fun to play with and the teacher didn't care.

[Marlin Junky]

No joke on the mercury! We used to do that. It was fun to play with and the teacher didn't care.

Really... when did you go to grammer school? I remember a teacher telling us to be careful with thermometers because the Hg can "burn" you. Funny what one remembers from decades ago. Now let's get back on topic! :bigsmyl2:

MJ

[Harter66]

I work in a HAZ-MAT facility,so I'm told. During my work and personal we did full blood work ups. My lead is nearly non-exsitant. I cast in a simple cross draft and smelt outside, I fully concur w/the smelt being by far the highest hazard. It is when we over heat the melt and burn off all the junk, brake dust,grease,oil,rubber,poly-plastic adhesives, bio-hazard wastes, i'm sure there's more. I have to share my casting bench w/assorted other tools so a wet towel wipe down job by job is probably why I stay clean.

[cbrick]

I had my lead levels checked again several months ago. Doc didn't give me any numbers, he just said lead levels were in the low normal adult range. I was happy enough with that answer considering the amount of lead that I handle I didn't ask any more questions about it.

I agree completely with Glen, ventilation, for me over kill ventilation. I have ceiling vents directly over the pot that pull even the heaviest smoke from sawdust out, out of the pot and straight up & out. I can stand next to my pot while fluxing and not smell the burning sawdust. I can't heat the shop in the winter or use A/C in the summer while casting because the vents are effective enough to pull out the heat or A/C just as fast as smoke from the fluxing. I smelt outdoors away from everything, everybody.

I installed a laundry room sink in my loading room so I can clean up after handling lead. After removing brass from the tumbler I can't get to the sink fast enough. Plus for the tumbler I give the corn medium a light mist of water to keep the dust down. Not wet, just enough to keep the dust down.

In about 30 years of casting & handling lead I have never had a high lead count in my blood so the ventilation & keeping hands cleen must be working. I don't get carried away with thinking lead is radioactive and gonna jump out & get me, I just try to use a little common sense.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

Nothing is every settled on this board. :-)

[BerdanIII]

Marlin Junky: Those 3M-style paper/polyester/polly-wants-a-cracker face masks are useless against lead dust. They don't seal well enough around your nose and mouth to keep out anything smaller than crickets. I used to work in a secondary lead smelter and the respirators we used were the kind with replaceable dust/gas cartridges. Those work, but they can be annoying and some people have allergic reactions to the rubber. I think 3M makes those, too, so check out their website. I think a standard dust cartridge would be fine, although a combo dust/organic or dust/H2S might be the thing if it gets smokey. The more cartridges you pile on, however, the greater breathing resistance becomes. Tech support could probably steer you in the right direction. The guys that rebuilt the reverb furnaces and cleaned out the blast furnaces had forced-air helmets.

Personal hygiene is critical to keeping down blood leads. I shuttled back and forth between the plant and corporate and sometimes changed uniforms and took showers three times a day to keep from contaminating the secretaries (in a bad way).

[MtGun44]

The arsenic issue pointed out by Glen is something that I was unaware of. As to the lead,
the partial pressure at casting temps (like lurch pointed out) is in the millionths of a mm
of mercury (units of pressure, 760 mm = 14.7 psi) so while SOME lead does leave as
vapor, it is going to be difficult to even measure. Arsenic issue is new to me, and I will take
Glen as the expert on that one.

As to lead, IMO you will get MUCH more exposure by other means, especially shooting at
an indoor range than from casting. Sounds like ventilation for arsenic is a good idea.

Bill

[Marlin Junky]

Sounds like ventilation for arsenic is a good idea.

Bill

PbO2 is an issue as well.

MJ

[geargnasher]

My bll went up last year so I bought a couple of lead test kits to locate the source. These are the ampules (sp) that you squeeze to release the test fluid onto the cotton swab.
I never set my lead pot temp. for over 800' and smelted in a different area.
I found lead when I swabbed the wood around my lead pot up to a line about 3" on my side of the pot. This was wood fresh from HD that I built my "casting closet" out of. I tested some leftover scraps of this wood and they tested negative for the lead. I had been using a fan behind me but when I found where the lead was I installed a 20" box fan on the far side of the pot to pull the fumes away from me.
I attached a piece of aluminum to my shirt on my chest that I tested for lead, then cast for about 3 or 4 hours. When I restested there was no lead on the plate. The box fan tested positive for lead after the casting session.
I was an OSHA certified hazardous waste worker for awhile while working for a major city and if I would have found this in a workplace it would have cause for some clean-up and changes.
There is also a warning in Lyman's 3rd Edition manual about lead dust in the casting area.

Test kits are simple and easy to use and run from about $10 to $20. If you want to know if there is lead in your casting area buy a kit and test it.

That right there is proof enough to use proper ventilation. The lead got out of the pot, went through the air, and got on the fan, regardless of what form it took. If it wasn't for the fan some of it would be in your lungs. Probably a significant amount over time.

I'm in the process of planning my new reloading/casting room, and I remember seeing pictures of your casting booth somewhere, my goal is to do something similar. An outside air intake down low under the bench and a high-volume exhaust fan above and behind the pot is the basic idea, with sides and a valance to help keep any fumes going out the exhaust.

Thanks for your work and reports.

Gear

[mroliver77]

Thanks for all the answers. I knew as much about the dust dangers. I too am planning a new casting bench. I picked up[ a used hood and fan. In thinking it through there are some other issues I need to address also.

Thanks to Glen for replying.

Jay

[leadman]

I think the fan in front of you pulling the fumes away is enough to do the job if large enough, like my 20" box fan.
I found with another fan behind me when I fluxed the smoke would swirl around close to me and sometimes around me. The smoke changed directions if I moved also. I stand when casting.
At times before I built this the wind would blow into the garage and blow the fumes around me. That is why I went to the 3 walls.

This is what my "casting closet" looked like. I have since disassembled it and now have a set-up I can move. Had my truck painted and wanted to get it in the garage. Also sold the shotmaker and quit selling boolits.

[Bradley]

Whatever your opinion about this, if you cast or shoot a lot of cast bullets it would be a good idea to get a blood lead level test at the end of your shooting year. If you live in snow country, the end of a shooting year is set by mother nature.

If your lead level is high, over 30, you've got a problem. It if isn't, you don't.

Cost about $125. If you can get your insurance company to pay for it, it might just be free.

So rather than debate this, find out.

If you have a high lead level, just doing nothing for a few months should solve the problem. So take a couple months off and have your lead level tested again. Removes all the mystery.

[JCools]

I'm a 4th gen plumber.My father,grandfather and great grandfather,worked w/ lead pots on jobs for years.W/o any adverse effects.A lot of these studies gorge a lab rat w/ concentrated amounts of a substance. Then claim the substance is bad for you.

[snuffy]

I cast indoors in an unventilated bedroom. At least once a week summer and winter. The ONLY ventilation is during the summer when I can open a window and run the bathroom exhaust fan. I don't always do even that.

The above is to set up the latest lead test that was 2 weeks ago on Tuesday. It was 9.0! Smelting is done outside in the summer,(too damn cold in the winter).

Too many people believe what the EPA tells them. Their agenda is to remove lead from everywhere just to stop us from hunting and shooting. Conspiracy theory? Maybe, but I believe it.

I used to love to hunt ducks. I haven't since seeing all the cripples brought about by the lead shot ban. The early steel was garbage, destroyed barrels, brought about a lot of crippled ducks. The newer non-toxic shot is much better, but I can't afford to buy a box of those shells. 5 shells cost what 25 used to cost.

[DrB]

I've done a little reading on the subject.... Like most things, I'm sure you have to append "it depends" to the following, but this is what I've recently come across in a survey article.

Ingestion through consumption leads to about 40-50% absorption for children, but only about 10% for adults. Calcium uptake is a related mechanism apparently and kids are much more likely to absorb lead than adults (growing bones).

Respiration, however, I've seen quoted as more like 90% absorption for adults... So breathing vapor, smoke, or respirable dust is a more efficient way of absorbing lead.

While I do believe that lead vapor pressure is low, I don't think vaporization is the only mechanism for lead getting into the lungs. I would bet that a significant amount of lead piggybacks on smoke particles from fluxing. Lead doesn't have to be a gas to be airborne. There are also the other materials like arsenic and arsenic compounds, wheelweight burn off, etc.

Anyway, I have a mask with hepa filter I've worn while casting, that eventually I plan on sending to a buddy for lead leachate extraction. It'll be interesting to see how much lead the mask stopped.

By the way, when guys post blood lead levels, can you state the units? Some labs/doctors use a normalized scale and it can be difficult to know what the numbers mean if you don't state the units and or scale of measurement. I would really like to know what other guys are finding, so that would be helpful to know...

Best regards,
DrB

[cbrick]

Interesting, let us know what you find out.

Rick

[Old Caster]

Snuffy, I think you are right on. Do a search on line and you will find out that lead levels in blood were said to be high if they were in the 60's in the 50's and 60's. Each few years the level is lowered so now 13 is what is commonly quoted. Some areas of the U.S. will give you a level of 13 if you never play with lead at all. All of this rhetoric is so the government can be larger. Government jobs never become less. The only time in my life that I have had high lead levels is when I shot and called the line in an indoor league. In other words, I was out on the line 3 times as much as anyone else. When I quit shooting at the indoor range my lead level dropped to normal for the area in a very short time even though I was still casting. I have been casting since I was 13, am 66 now and am highly competetive in the Sr. Olympics. Maybe when I am 80 I'll change my mind and let someone who is 90 do it for me.

[C.F.Plinker]

I use the MSA half face respirator (Model 00817663) with P100 cartridges. which is rated to protect against lead fumes among other gases, dusts, and fumes. My understanding is that masks have a rating as to how much they block the stuff they are supposed to filter out of the air. In this case it blocks 100 percent of the bad stuff. When you go to the store see of there is a rating on the mask you are looking at getting.

Years ago I used a painters mask at the league. It had a washable foam filter as the filtering medium. I was amazed at how much it collected just after a few range sessions.

[DeanV]

Substance

Melting Point Temperature
- t -
(oC)
Latent Heat of Melting
- Lf -
(kJ/kg)
Boiling Point - Vaporization - Temperature
- t -
(oC)
Latent Heat of Evaporation
- Lv -
(kJ/kg)


Aluminum
659
399
2327
10530


Brass
930





Cobalt
1480

2900



Copper
1083
207
2595
4730


Ethyl alcohol
-114
108
78.3
855


Gold
1063
64
2600
1577


Graphite


3500



Hydrogen
-259
58.0
-253
455


Lead
328
23
1750
859


Manganese
1260

2150



Magnesium
650

1110



Mercury
-38.8
11
357
295


Molybdenum
2620

5560



Nickel
1455

2730



Nitrogen
-210
25.7
-196
200


Oxygen
-219
13.9
-183
213


Silver
962
111
1950
2356


Titanium
1700

3260



Tungsten
3370

5930

[DeanV]

The environmentalist would like you to believe that lead vaporizes, so you can inhale it, as a means to legislate shooting out of existence. As you can see from the values from a material engineering reference, lead doesn't vaporize until 1750 degrees centigrade. Doesn't happen when shooting or melting lead to cast bullets. And the hydrochloric acid in your stomach or that of any animal is not concentrated enough to dissolve, digest, lead. It's a big lie that environmentalists have told everyone for years and scientific evidence has refuted this many times, but legislators and EPA officials continue to ignore reality. If you don't study physics and material science and only read Sierra Club literature for your knowledge base you will buy anything fed to you.

[Dusty Bannister]

Most of us deal with scrap lead. That would not necessarily have the same risks as pure lead would it?

[JSnover]

Most of us deal with scrap lead. That would not necessarily have the same risks as pure lead would it?
Consider them the same for health risk analysis purposes. Pure lead is just lead. Scrap could be lead plus anything else and there are worse things than pure lead. Melt all of it a reasonable temperature, avoid dust, wash up afterwards, etc. Wear gloves and a mask if you choose.

[tazman]

It isn't lead fumes you need to concern yourself with. It is lead dust. When in liquid form(melted) it can release lead dust particles into the air. Yes, I know lead is heavy, but if the particles are small they can easily be carried by air currents. Lead also will rub/scrape off solid chunks quite readily when in soft form.
You can also get lead particles on your fingers from handling lead boolits or ingots.
As long as you don't eat or drink while casting or smelting and wash your hands before you do, you should be fine.
I worked with lead as a heat treating medium for over 40 years at my factory job. As long as you follow the rules about keeping possibly contaminated surfaces away from your mouth or nose, you won't have a problem. In that 40 years we only had 2 people who got high lead level tests. Both were smokers who didn't wash their hands before they smoked. They handled their cigarettes by the filters and then put the filters in their mouth. One of them had to be removed from the job because his level got too high. He smoked over a pack a day at work.

[NSB]

It isn't lead fumes you need to concern yourself with. It is lead dust. When in liquid form(melted) it can release lead dust particles into the air. Yes, I know lead is heavy, but if the particles are small they can easily be carried by air currents. Lead also will rub/scrape off solid chunks quite readily when in soft form.
You can also get lead particles on your fingers from handling lead boolits or ingots.
As long as you don't eat or drink while casting or smelting and wash your hands before you do, you should be fine.
I worked with lead as a heat treating medium for over 40 years at my factory job. As long as you follow the rules about keeping possibly contaminated surfaces away from your mouth or nose, you won't have a problem. In that 40 years we only had 2 people who got high lead level tests. Both were smokers who didn't wash their hands before they smoked. They handled their cigarettes by the filters and then put the filters in their mouth. One of them had to be removed from the job because his level got too high. He smoked over a pack a day at work.
This is exactly right. I supervised a very, very large operation where I had 37 tube mills running 24 hours a day and each machine had a 3600 lb pot running at high speed. You can get lead from these pots due to the material in the pot that isn't lead carrying small particles into the air. It is true that most lead poisoning is from ingestion....smoking and eating at the machine without washing your hands. You can believe anything you want but the people who get high lead levels are the ones who don't close the door to the solder pot and breath the fumes, smoke while handling lead and running the machine, and the real idiots are the ones who heat their lunch up on top of the solder pot. Forget about discussing the boiling point of lead. That has nothing to do with getting high levels in your blood tests. It's all hygiene and breathing in fumes off the pot. One other cause of high lead levels is shooting indoors with improper ventilation.

[FISH4BUGS]

I cast for sub machine guns in 380, 9mm and 45. I cast by the thousands in the casting and reloading man cave. I cast indoors with no ventilation in the winter and open doors with cross ventilation in the summer.
I get my lead level checked every year during my annual physical. Nothing shows up.
Lead must vaporize before you can inhale the lead vapor. That happens at about 1200 degrees. My Lee 20 lb pot won't EVER get it that hot.
Smelting, on the other hand, is a stinky, smelly, smokey and crappy process. I do that OUTSIDE. You could inhale some pretty lousy stuff in THAT process so be careful.
Where you get lead into your system is through your mouth and fingers. After casting or smelting, don't touch anything until you wash your hands. Don't smoke while playing with lead. Well....don't smoke anyway. Don't eat anything until you wash your hands thoroughly.
Don't I sound like your mother?

[GWM]

Pure lead is just lead. Scrap could be lead plus anything else and there are worse things than pure lead.

Yes I would be more worried about contaminations of zinc, mercury or cadmium in case of both fumes and dust. And who knows what else.

[David2011]

Nothing is every settled on this board. :-)

My exact thought when I saw the title.

As others have posted, I'm far more concerned about the dust associated with shot and shot bags and tumbler dust than lead vaporizing. I keep shot in its canvas bag inside a plastic bag to contain the dust.

David

[mdi]

Lead must boil to produce fumes. Lead isn't boiling at casting temperatures. That's all I know, and all I care to know about it. Agree. "Lead Fumes" are different than "Casting Fumes". Casting fumes are smoke from fluxing, and stuff burning off in the melt. I've only been casting bullets for mebbe 17 years but have been making sinkers as long as I can remember, and never stand over the pot doing deep breathing exercises so smoke from melting lead does not bother me. But, I do use common sense and have a fan nearby blowing smoke away from me...

[waco]

I've been casting and reloading since 1999. I have had the Doc check lead levels in my blood twice over the past five years. They are so low they do not even register. Don't inhale tumbler dust, lick your fingers, or suck on lead. You will be fine.

[Mal Paso]

That does it. I'm getting one of those heated oil air fresheners and fill it full of Boolits so I can have the aroma of lead wafting through the house. :bigsmyl2:

[cbashooter]

Two people I know who were casters only got high lead levels from poorly ventilation indoor ranges at gun companies they worked for.

[Newboy]

Most of you here haven't paid attention to the chart posted earlier.
If you notice, lead will have a certain vapor pressure, even in solid form. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE VAPORIZED! Also, notice that the vapor pressure increases by A FACTOR OF TEN WITH EACH 50' OF TEMPERATURE.
Now, a vapor pressure of
10 E-7 at 600' is not something I worry about, because we are looking at maybe 2 ppm at 600'. But that (approximated) means 20 ppm at 650', and 200ppm at 700'.
Still doesn't worry me ... not dead yet (after 50 years).
Like the man said, the fumes off of the initial melt, with all the garbage in it, is probably much worse.

[kevin]

I'm surprised that there's been no mention of something like this on this thread yet(i have yet to thoroughly explore the other exposer related threads yet fyi). But here goes my dad cast'ed and handled lead for a good third to half of his life like his father before him. In what i would call a very old school fashion(just like how grandpa did it), casting indoors, no ventilation fans, handling bullets and scrap lead bare handed, reloading bare handed ect. Then at the age of 60 he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma also know as bone cancer. Also known as a type of cancer caused by long term exposure to heavy metals. After 5 years of on again off again with the disease he finally died from it.

I'd like to think that i do things very much differently from the way that Dad and Grandpa did it(when it comes to my lead handling that is). But sometimes i really wonder if its worth the risk. Why am i so hopelessly addicted to these darn shooting sports(whoooooooo!!!)??? I often think that a smarter person(especially one with the familial history that i have)would quit this lead exposure nonsense and sell all the guns and the reloading equipment and find something healthier(but knowing that i was exposed to lead as a child i am now able to deduce that as an adult i likely have a reduced IQ and am therefore to stupid to do so).

trying to lighten the mood at the end there HAHA:lovebooli

But seriously on his death bed My Father told me that it was not worth it..

[kevin]

Oh and PS Gramps died from cancer to. He was also an avid lead handler. God i am such a downer!:hijack:

[popper]

multiple myeloma High white cell count that attacks organs. Lead is NOT a carcinogen. Lead in the body It interferes with calcium (muscle/nerve problems), attaches to red blood cells (retained in bones where blood cells are manufactured (anemia) and interferes with vitamin D uses in the body. Chelation with vitamin C works but large doses interfere with the bowels so it is usually given intravenously. IIRC, 7500 lead smelter/foundry workers were found to have a higher death rate (per capita) but no comparison with other similar workers or miners. Basically, no root cause. Basic hygiene (nitrile gloves if you want) washing & dust masks solve the problem.

[longbow]

I have said it many times, when I see these threads, there is certainly no shame in handling lead carefully but as has been said above there are no lead vapors produced at the temperatures we cast at and lead is not a carcinogen.

Handling lead bare handed is not dangerous as lead cannot be absorbed through the skin however, handling lead then eating or smoking without washing can certainly introduce lead into your body through your mouth. Lead oxides form on any lead exposed to air and those oxides can be picked up on your hands then transferred to your mouth. Use some common sense here!

Also, while there are no lead vapours produced at the temperatures we cast at, there is dross which is lead oxide and you can inhale fine lead oxides if the dust is stirred up or disturbed by scooping it off the melt so again, use some common sense and be careful you don't create a mini dust storm and go breathing it.

I usually cast outside simply because I don't want spilled lead in the house... and a propane stove running in the house for several hours. When I learned to cast though I was using an old natural gas hot plate in my parent's basement with no ventilation and in those day snot as much common sense about hygiene as I have commented on above. Even so my blood lead count has never been high.

To top it off I have spent a good deal of the last 30+ years of work in and around a very large lead smelter and refinery. In fact I am back working there again for a few months. The smelter is over 100 years old and not modern by any means. There are open and ventilated pots of molten lead in the plant every day but there are few respirator mandatory areas. I normally do not wear my respirator unless there is visible smoke or dust in the air and I often work around the pots. There are 5 or 6 pots that hold over 235 tons of molten lead, one that holds 70 tons and couple of other small pots along with open launders with molten lead flowing.

It is unusual for operators and tradesmen to get leaded, it happens but is unusual. If operators can work 12 hours a day 4 days on and 4 days off in those conditions without getting leaded then someone who occasionally casts boolits (do you cast daily, once a week, once a month?) has to be very sloppy in handling lead and dross to get a high blood lead count.

Longbow

[JWFilips]

Age 50 &+ Don't worry you won't die of anything Lead related unless it is shot at you!....Cast away and enjoy life! You will have much bigger hurdles!

[Leadmelter]

What about lead in the primers? I forgot the chemical name but it contributes to the lead intake more than casting. Lead Phytate?
Leadmelter
MI

[SP5315]

What about lead in the primers? I forgot the chemical name but it contributes to the lead intake more than casting. Lead Phytate?
Leadmelter
MI

Lead styphenate

[Digital Dan]

Do not chew on window sills of old buildings.


Dang, that's one of my favorite pastimes too.

[Idaho45guy]

I just bought a canister of Lead-Off wipes to use when I am casting. My dad is 73 and has been reloading for about 50 years. But, he just started casting serious amounts of boolits the past several years; about 40k per year.

He's been degrading mentally quite noticeably the past year or so. He uses no wipes or any preventive measures. I suspect it's the lead as his dad was sharp as a tack well into his 80's.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just bought a canister of Lead-Off wipes to use when I am casting. My dad is 73 and has been reloading for about 50 years. But, he just started casting serious amounts of boolits the past several years; about 40k per year.

He's been degrading mentally quite noticeably the past year or so. He uses no wipes or any preventive measures. I suspect it's the lead as his dad was sharp as a tack well into his 80's.
I'd strongly recommend a lead/blood test for your Dad, even though he's 73. If it is Lead, the poisoning can be slowed/stopped with corrective measures and medication/Vit C to flush his system.
With that said, there are also other reasons a 73 yr old will suffer memory loss, even if your grandfather didn't.

[popper]

JonB - my wife keeps telling me that, then asks where her glasses are - she doesn't cast.

[NoAngel]

I've had lead levels checked twice in the last five years. I was told they were well within acceptable range.
I cast indoors, outdoors, where ever depending on the weather. I ALWAYS smelt outdoors with a fan.
Indoors I cast with a manicurist fan. I use it when juggling more than one mold and angle it so it sucks the away from me.
Never have a fan blowing ON you no matter how hot it is, it's pushing fumes right at you, duh.

There ARE real health concerns when it comes to lead but I think many people are overly cautious even to an extreme. I won't condemn that behavior. When it comes to your health, can you REALLY be too safe?

One rule applies to casting....and your whole life; Don't be an idiot.

[mdi]

I don't see any "controversy" about this and it's been discussed many, many times on many, many forums. At casting temperatures, lead does not vaporize. Any "toxic" emissions during casting is from fluxing materials (wax, sawdust, lube, etc.). Period...

[JWFilips]

Lead paint chips with a dash of salt.... Yum!
Bet you can't eat just one!

[Lloyd Smale]

do a search for lead poisoning on here and you can spend a couple days getting your answer. Topics been beat to death.

[6bg6ga]

As Lloyd has said the topic has been beaten to death. Believe whatever you wish. I personally will have proper venting in the garage when I fire up the casting machine.

[barrabruce]

So casting on a patio with a fan blowing the smoke or fumes away from you should be pretty good then?

I did a lead test and it was background level.

But it's the fumes from the pot what ever they are I don't want to be breathing in.

Anyone got an outdoor setup they like to share.

I ladle pour.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I have comented on this before but lead boils at a little over 3000 degrees and I do not think any of us are going to be casting at anywhere near that temperature. We are not going to get lead poisoning from casting. Be sure to wash your hands after handling lead though.

[JWFilips]

If your lead levels are high I doubt if it would be from proper casting procedures inside or out! Check how you clean you brass ...a lot of primer dust in vibratory cleaning, You have a lot of primer dust from your depriming trays
Handle a lot of boolits without washing you hands?
& A few other factors! Casting will be low on your list!

[LoneStarTx]

I love the smell of hot lead in the morning!
Seriously, lead boils to vapor at 3191 deg F. There is no danger of lead vapor in casting or shooting. There is a real danger inhaling fumes from impurities in the melt.

[LoneStarTx]

"Lead must vaporize before you can inhale the lead vapor. That happens at about 1200 degrees"
Actually that is 3191 deg F.

[jsizemore]

Read post 17.

[John Guedry]

When smelting is the time to be careful. Wheelweights in particular. When a dog goes by a tire,he always cocks a leg up. Awful vapors!

[bangerjim]

"Cleanliness is next to godliness"......and being lead-free!

Wash your hands, for goodness sake!!!!!! Lead "fumes" are the least of your problems.

[Hickok]

I always thought if I ever had high lead contamination in my body, someone else with a Smith or a Colt would be responsible for putting it there![smilie=1:

[FISH4BUGS]

My take: lead fumes start about 3000 degrees. I don't think the Lee 20 lb pot goes quite that high.
The fumes from all the other junk that is in lead ( - wrappers, butts, caps, etc. - particularly when smelting wheel weights) is what I concerned about.
My blood gets tested every year at my annual physical. Never as much as a trace of lead in my blood.

[lightman]

I've never really worried about lead fumes. But, when I'm smelting, be it wheel weights or other lead, I provide good ventilation and try to stay up wind and out of any smoke. I avoid eating, drinking, smoking and rubbing my eyes, lips or other -----! If the lead looks to be oxidized I try to disturb it as little as possible. We are probably in more danger from depriming a lot of brass and from whatever dust comes from the tumbler. Good hygiene and common sense should keep us safe enough.

[OldBearHair]

X2 on what Lightman says here except I worry some. Now for a little off topic but not really. I make knives of all sorts, even forging some with a coal fired forge. I have been taught to never breathe any airborne particles of any kind. Always use a good mask. Some things like grinding bone handles, bone dust is accumilative, that builds up time after time. You breathe it in, it doesn't come out and after a while you run out of lung space. Have a squirrel cage fan that moves air toward the forge away from my left, so I don't get a swirling effect. So My take on this is that avoid all airborne particles and wash hands and face often. As sure as shootin' get your hands all yucky and your nose or eyes start to itch, huh