Internet Discussion Life Cycle

[Char-Gar]

I found this on another board and thought it worth re-posting as it has the ring of truth.


internet discussion life cycle:

1.) Board is born with smallish cadre of like-minded individuals.

2.) Board becomes succesful

3.) Board gains reputation as "the" place for this or that.

4.) Board membership swells dramatically. Goofy people appear - convinced of their superiority.

5.) Board become chaotic and arguments flare. Willful Ignorance abounds.

6.) Board loses original members and direction.

7.) Board posts talking about "how good it used to be here" appear.

8.) Board dies.

Sad.

[btroj]

So, where are we here?

Sadly Chargar, this looks pretty accurate to me. I am thankful that I joined when it was a 1.5 or so.

[Char-Gar]

I have seen several Internet Discussion Boards implode something along the lines of the steps above. I don't take the exact order to be set in stone, but the overall movement is there.

I just posted it for folks to think about. I don't want to draw conclusions about any particular Internet Discussion Group. Folks can process that how they wish.

[Marlin Junky]

This list could apply to most life cycles. One can substitute California or even USA for "board" in the list above.

MJ

[44man]

Personal feelings enter.
The important thing is to keep friends and a little disagreement has to be forgotten.
Some will have a fear to post certain things because they will be bashed. Just keep your cool because it is still information. Just state your case.
When you ask a question, it means a lot to you. There are no stupid questions. You might really need help.
Nobody agrees with everything, accept it. Life goes by at the speed of light, love your fellow man. I want to meet everyone here, you should too.
Most sites fail because there is a "leader" and followers. Everyone else is an outsider.

[felix]

Most sites fail because there is a "leader" and followers. Everyone else is an outsider.

Not only boards, but small companies and/or departments of large ones fail for the same reason. ... felix

[diehard]

44man has it right on the nose!

I find that I try my best to evoke civility on the internet. I have always wanted nothing but an educative site with a sense of community. I left a forum where I was moderator simply because the "you tube " mentality of "slam and damn" prevailed despite my best efforts. I found I couldn't sleep at night worrying that the whole thing had gone to hell under my watch. The fact was/is due to the rapid change in the level of civility, all the originals left (including me), and only 16 year old wannbees hung around enjoying their put downs and insults, and getting nowhere with knowledge. and friendly assistance.

When I came here I found a very friendly community. I really liked it here, and still do. However, I do believe the number missing on the chart above falls somewhere between 2 and 3, where the "like minded individuals" who built the place begin to resent all newcomers and treat them as "goofy people" with nothing important to say. In fact, it is those "pioneers"--- if you will --who often become abrasive, or even abusive to the point that many lurkers and occasional posters go elsewhere. Such was the case with my former site. Such is the case...sometimes...here.

Case in point...on this site: just this weekend I made a plea for civility where a new poster with questionable smelting practices was showing off his methods. It wasn't the "goofy new people" who resorted to words like "stupid" and natural selection theories. Anyway, since I intervened several--and I mean more than a few--have pm'd me to thank me for the reminder. Each and every one stated they were often afraid to say anything about anything for fear of being jumped on. Some of this may be part of the changes you all lament about. maybe we have to accept it? (NO!) However, I have another suggestion:

Looking at this thread I see members with posts in the several thousands. It is you guys who built this place.....and you built a damned fine place for casters to learn and share. It is up to YOU guys to save it as well. I implore you all to accentuate the positive, invite members into your community (communities have norms, and traditions, and civility should rank highest among them). Set the example with civil talk, honest and substantiated opinion, and common decency. If a post is out of line say so--civilly , and follow up with an offline admonishment if needed. Set the example....and save this wonderful site you've created. Accept that it is going to change, but it doesn't have to die.

I'll shut up now (I'm sure no one wanted to hear from me in the first place) with one final point: I LOVE the community you built here. I have learned so very much, and I am perhaps too eager to share and help others when I don't have the "post count" to rate as someone who knows anything. Some of the members here I am indebted to beyond mere words. However, I too have spent most of my time lurking after having been chided over misconceptions (part of the learning process?). You guys can stop that, and end the bad behavior
.

I'll definitely do my part. I'm not going anywhere.

Mods....feel free to pull this unsolicited sermon at your discretion.

I'll be checking my pm box frequently.

Laurel



Happy 4th of July. Remember the ideals in the Decalration have also been eroded over time. I refuse to let them slip away. Too many have paid in blood to them fade away.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Diehard,

Very well stated. I too have been jumped on for "misunderstandings." I have also gotten plenty of PMs lamenting the open bashing that has gone on occasionally. A few members have told me they have left this site for long periods of time because of the loss of civility. And unfortunately, it was some of the "old timers" doing the bashing.

I hope this trend is going away. To be honest, it does seem more civilized lately. We can only hope.

As I have said many times, there are a LOT of great folks here. I don't want to leave due to a few SOBs.

[buck1]

The rudeness is what bugs me the most. Some folks have no idea how to talk to a fellow human being it seems.

[no34570]

It is the old saying,"Treat people the way you would like to be treated" is that not right?

Cheers

[markinalpine]

I've just stopped responding to some of the worst abuse. When some one writes about their idea, and you don't agree, you don't have to call them stupid.
Mark

[frkelly74]

It is the old saying,"Treat people the way you would like to be treated" is that not right?

Cheers
I always loved that one!!

[danski26]

The list seems quite accurate. I wonder if their can be a "re-birth" or start over that can be effected somehow. I'm not sure that the cycle could be completely stopped....slowed yes. But possibly a re-birth. Could that be done without alienateing a lot of people?

[nicholst55]

So, where are we here?

Sadly Chargar, this looks pretty accurate to me. I am thankful that I joined when it was a 1.5 or so.

I think we're either already at, or rapidly approaching #5, personally.


The rudeness is what bugs me the most. Some folks have no idea how to talk to a fellow human being it seems.

Sad, but true. Big egos tend to interfere there.


I've just stopped responding to some of the worst abuse. When some one writes about their idea, and you don't agree, you don't have to call them stupid.
Mark

Absolutely! This, and buck1's comment, explain the reason for, and use of, the ADD TO IGNORE LIST function.

I participate in forums that interest me until the 'signal to noise ratio' becomes excessive in the direction of 'noise.' Then I tend to move on. That's why I no longer belong to forums like The High Road and AR-15.com; too much noise.

[Char-Gar]

The list seems quite accurate. I wonder if their can be a "re-birth" or start over that can be effected somehow. I'm not sure that the cycle could be completely stopped....slowed yes. But possibly a re-birth. Could that be done without alienateing a lot of people?

Nothing is ever set in stone. People and communities can and sometimes do change. In the end folks will do what they feel is best for them. If they feel it is best for them to change they will. If they don't, they won't.

[Char-Gar]

It is the old saying,"Treat people the way you would like to be treated" is that not right?

Cheers

I wonder if the words of Jesus have just become another "old saying".

[felix]

Charger, yes, Jesus' words have been set in stone via His Chruch's earthly cornerstone, the Pope. And, yes, most folks then considered it just an "old saying" and that the rock does not exist and never has. ... felix

[Lee]

Yup. It has started. Just a matter of time. Time to start start archiving what ever you consider to be useful information. NOW.8-)

[diehard]

Can someone please point out to me just what it is that makes the end of the of world seem so inevitable?

I wish to believe that the fact that posters with less than 1200 posts are most active here is not a cause for the Apocalypse.

There has to be some tangible reason for the doom and gloom.


God Bless America!

[mpbarry1]

Wow. I hope it is not like a Tularemia Cycle in Jack Rabbits. :).

Since I have been here, I have interacted with a bunch of wonderful people that I would like to meet. Very few folks that I wouldn't. So, I am hoping that you all are wrong and this community can last a great deal longer. All in all, if I could populate my own town, a majority of you would be invited.

It is small town values that makes this place great. Please don't lose sight of that and by all means don't leave me out here all alone!

:Luvcastboolits:

[waksupi]

Well, I sure hope you all enjoy wherever you are headed. The board isn't going anywhere. The gloom and doom people won't be missed if they leave.

[white eagle]

Well, I sure hope you all enjoy wherever you are headed. The board isn't going anywhere. The gloom and doom people won't be missed if they leave.

hopefully the clowns and jokers go rite along with them [smilie=6:

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Well I have only been around here for a few months, and I don't really see what all the hub bub is. But, I don't visit every forum all the time, so I may miss a lot. My experience is that this has been a great place to visit, and to learn from. Thank you to all who make this happen.
As far as the rest of this, maybe a forum for Argument Central? :D

[smoked turkey]

Hummmm..Lots of room for thought here. I say "thought" because we don't always have to turn our first thoughts into written words, and probably shouldn't. Most of the time I see patient thoughtful answers to questions. Not always but most of the time. The old adage is true that a bad apple can ruin the whole bunch if not dealt with early on. Obviously most of us feel deeply connected to this site and want it to continue to thrive and continue to fill the nitch that each of us need to enjoy our hobby to the fullest. I say hobby because for most on here it is just that, a hobby. We take outselves too seriously sometimes.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Well, I sure hope you all enjoy wherever you are headed. The board isn't going anywhere. The gloom and doom people won't be missed if they leave.

:?:

Mike

[Jim]

..... we don't always have to turn our first thoughts into written words, and probably shouldn't......

You got that right! I can't count the times I've started a response and voided it before I posted it. There's been times I went back and deleted a response later because I realized after the fact that I shouldn't have said what I did. I did that at late as this very thread.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am too hopeful to do anymore than read this thread.
and comment that I am hopeful.
Jon

[Char-Gar]

No gloom and doom here. Just an attempt to help folks think about how things in this world cycle and with that understanding cycles can be broken.

It is also important that folks be able to express their thoughts and feelings without being judged, criticized or shown the door. Such behavior is very negative and makes the problem worse and not better. Rejection does not a community build! Rejection destroys a community!

Those who wish positive thoughts and behavior of others, must be willing the model the same. Heat begets heat and light begets light!

[MT Gianni]

The model described is not a certainty. It can happen if we chose to let it but we need not do so, nor are we IMO.

[462]

44man said, "Most sites fail because there is a "leader" and followers."

Chargar said, "It is also important that folks be able to express their thoughts and feelings without being judged, criticized or shown the door."

I've only ever belonged to one other forum, but left because of an egotistical, I'm-always-right "leader". If a member didn't agree with the "leader" they were pubicly ridiculed and/or excommunicated. The forum was definitely in the fifth stage, when I left, and have no idea as to its current status.

We will not always agree, but as long as members obeys the forum's rules, there is no cause to 86 them.

[Stick_man]

This is interesting. I happen to believe (if we have to use the scale that was presented) that this site is VERY stuck at about a 3.2 or 3.3 There are some moments when the forum tests the waters at a 4 or even at a 5, but I believe we are pretty well rooted at the low 3's. This is still the greatest site I have found, with the best members, and the best and deepest knowledge available anywhere. We are a family here. When one of us is in a bad way, we pitch in and help make things better. Siblings squabble from time to time, but they get over it. The neighbors change from time to time, some great ones move in, some great ones move out. Some "not so great" ones come and go as well.

I believe this family of ours has great leadership. Note I said "leadership" and not "dictatorship". As parents, we set down rules to keep order in our homes. The rules here are good, although you can't always please everybody. Some people balk at any rules. Others thrive.

Yep, I think we have made it into the 3's, but hope that is where we stay for a long while. This is a great place and we appear to have a boon in new membership. There have been a few troublemakers come and go, but they have been very few and don't last too long if they can't see their actions getting the desired rise out of others.

Thanks all my brothers and sisters for being who you are and for making this family what it is today.:CastBoolitsisbest: :cast_boolits:

[Lloyd Smale]

This is still a good board. Do i wish it was back a couple years ago when it was just good old boys and questions like can you shoot a gas checked bullet without a gas check or do bullets bump up didnt come up weekly by new members. You bet but it aint going to happen and i except that because i know that this is still the best dammed internet fourm ive ever found.

[Andy_P]

How do you define "success"? If it's longevity, then there are many, but if it's growth and longevity, then there are few. What seems to kill most boards are the trolls and internet bullies who ruin it, and the exhaustion, frustration and financial burden borne by the few who do all the work.

If you look at the very few successful boards, e.g. here, and Gunboards, you'll notice a common theme: consistent moderators; a strong focus (little time devoted to "Off Topic" stuff); and either sponsors and/or a method to financially support the operations. This will tick off those who think they have the "right" to speak their mind unfettered; are expert in all things (and need to have the last word); and can't spare five bucks to support the operations. That ilk tends to be culled in short order or leave in a huff (sometimes only to return with a new name).

This site has it right.

[Bret4207]

I'm with Lloyd. Things have changed, not that things are bad, but the family atmosphere we used to have is long gone, at least IMO. It used to be friends here and friends can argue and disagree and hash it out and then everything is fine. So now, for myself anyway, I visit 3-4 areas and read and shake my head and leave mostly.

Someone mentioned some people not being able to express their thoughts without coming off as rude or something, Buck I think. Lotta truth in that. We've had a lot of blood let over peoples inability to state something in terms that aren't simply offensive. It takes time to learn that some folks just aren't handy with words. One gone member was famous for this, the old timers will know you I mean- " You don't know squat and you're doing it all wrong. I get ragged one hole groups at 5000 yards using my method at 4000 fps you bonehead. Best wishes, your pal XXX". It took years to figure out he really didn't mean to come across like he did. He really did want to be your pal, he just had the worst way of stating things. Gotta cut folks some slack sometimes.

Chargar brought up another issue- "It is also important that folks be able to express their thoughts and feelings without being judged, criticized or shown the door." There is a member here who gets his nose bent and leaves every so often. He's a Democrat, an old style Truman Dem. He get's offended when challenged. While I agree with Charles that people should be able to say what they think without fear, it's unreasonable to think that when a grown man expresses an opinion that goes contrary to someone elses that it will go unchallenged. When you add emotional issues like abortion, spending, Obamacare, the looming collapse of our nation, well, things are going to get lively. And lets face it, most of the posters here are pretty much in lock step in that they lean to the right. We are all gun owners, gun rights are important and a political issue. You simply cannot separate politics from shooting anymore. So if someone is vocal in their support of the other side, isn't it logical that someone may disagree? I guess I'm saying sometimes people brings it on themselves. Myself, I'm too stubborn to leave, others may feel differently.

I've only come across maybe a half dozens people here since the days of Shooters that I had no use for. One was simply a thief that took a lot of people for funds on a GB. Another was....well, if you can't say anything nice, etc. While this place may not be like "in the good old days" it's still the best. I don't think it's dying. I just think it's different. I can live with that.

[para45lda]

I agree with mpbarry1. I've been lurking for a long time then joined and I have learned as much in these short months as the last 30years of reloading. I've seen a few threads go sideways lately (diehard's example is above).

I really wish every member would read this thread and take it to heart. WE ARE ALL FRIENDS

I nominate this thread for a sticky.

[Jim]

Well said, Bret.

[Char-Gar]

I like the positive stuff I am hearing. It should encourage us all.

[curiousgeorge]

I want to echo Jim, "Well said Bret".

Things change, not always for the better or for the worse, just different. I found this site about 2 years ago. This is the only place that I know of that has the in-depth knowledge on casting and loading for lead boolits. The knowledge is freely shared, and for the most part is stated that what worked for that person might not work for you, not that their way is the ONLY way.

I see this place continuing to grow and like every community, as the numbers increase everyone isn't going to be "pals" with everyone else. But I bet that we have all met someone or several someones that we eventually can call our friends and would have never known them at all if not for this site.

It still amazes me to see a new reloader successfully doing something the "wrong" way and forcing me to re-think the "right" way that I thought was the "only" way. We can still learn something from everyone regardless of their level of experience, even if only to reinforce the right ways by helping to teach them to a newbie.

Again, Bret, glad to have you back and posting.

Steve

[Dean D.]

There are some good ideas and points here in this thread. That list Chargar posted can serve as a warning or guideline on what NOT to do in order to keep our little community from changing in a bad way.

What attracted me to this website and made me want to stay was the strong sense of community, willingness to help others and civility. Those are rare qualities on most forums now days. I still see that here every day. Faces change, lots of them new, but the core group that keeps this site going still have the same values and attitudes about this community as they did when I first came here. Right on!

We all just need to do our own little part to keep this community the great place it has always been. I honestly do not see our staff doing any major censoring except for profanity or personal attacks/name calling, etc... Everyone deserves the right to be able to express opposing views, heck, that's how we learn! As long as it is done in a civil manner I see no problem.

Just my .02 as the Jr. Mod. here.

[Johnk454]

I've visited off and on for a long time. Joined at one point, yet forgot my sign-on and password over time. Signed up again recently to get in on a group buy for a Miha 4-cav. Very few posts, obviously, and claim no knowledge of this board's workings and/or social structure.

However, that list does accurately represent the fate of quite a few boards that I have been a part of for many years - but hopefully it is not a guaranteed fate; perhaps it best serves as a cautionary tale.

[cajun shooter]

I have posted and told 45 Nut that this forum is the best that I have ever had the pleasure of being a member of. I am like many others in that I have both good points and others that I need to work on. I am human and with fault but I have never called anyone a name unless I was responding to what I was called. That is not correct either but a reaction born out of my military and police duty and something I am working on. I am a person who has always soaked up information in many subjects and also one who can't wait to share it. Some may think that trait makes me appear as a know it all but it is not given with malice but kindness. I sometimes hold back on giving a answer because of this. For a reason I don't understand some people take offence if you post a lot of answers. I myself have always welcomed information that I know is correct and that the mentor is trying to help. We had a member this morning that was posting about some of the reality shows on TV and made a referral to Swamp People. He said it was a prime example of the mountains in the Southern States keeping people in so they are all inbred. That was wrong and uncalled for and I responded in the best way I could muster. This person has less than 100 post and is not one of the members who will contribute to the over all well being of our forum. To me, if you have to resort to calling names and making jokes about others then it is you who have short comings. To me you should compliment a person on his good points and if needed, help him with the others that need some work. In a kind way by all means. I am proud to be a member!!

[diehard]

Cajun,

We had a member this morning that was posting about some of the reality shows on TV and made a referral to Swamp People. He said it was a prime example of the mountains in the Southern States keeping people in so they are all inbred.

I read the post your refer to and thought the same exact thing! I make jokes about myself as being a red neck (from Maine no less...after all my grandfather used that have us kids collect nails from torn down buildings and straighten them out to be reused.....that's something only a country boy would understand), but I would never stoop to name calling like that.

I too learned my manners in the military (and from the swift backhand of a concerned grandmother... God Bless her soul).


+1 on everything else you have said.

[Ajax]

Cajunshooter and Diehard,
I couldnt agree with ya'll more. I dont post alot cause i dont know alot about the subjects, but I do learn alot by reading them. I too have noticed some of the newer guys, recently having a snarky (yea I used it lol) attitude and poor forum etiquet. I think alot of that has to do with never really being on a good forum. We here are a family not just a group of guys bragging and I think alot of the newer guys have never been to a site like this. I think they need time and "encouragement" to come around to our way of thinking.Growing up in South East Texas you gain a strong sense of family and that is what has kept me here. Oh and for the new guys there is a chat function and your all more than welcome to join in.

Andy

[Gunload Master]

One thing I can personally guarantee is this place will always have the lights on.

[Char-Gar]

The Redneck, Hill Billy, and Country Boy gets far less credit than they deserve for making this country what it is today.

There were several waves of Scotch-Irish who came to this country very early on. They were folks of an independent spirit and formed the backbone of the Revolutionary Army. After they war they pushed deeper and deeper into the hills looking for freedom and a place to live according to their own consciousness.

The culture that so many folks look down on is the culture that gave rise to the American spirit. Long life and prosperity to them all.

P.S. My ancestors came here before 1650 and were English and Welsh. No Scotch-Irish in the lot.

[diehard]

Where I grew up in Maine you can't go ten miles in any direction without finding a town bearing a Scots-Irish name. My mother's father (my grandfather, whom everyone in the community says I resemble in physical appearance ---though I'll never be the man he was) was a Stewart from a family kicked out of Northern Ireland in the early 1700's. One thing I can tell you about the people of that area (or this used to be true before MTV and drugs corrupted the youth--same story in Appalachia, etc)...they are the most self-reliant folks I know.

I digress...but its fun to talk about that fantasy world I lived in as a kid. So much has changed. :sad:

The problem with the idea of self-reliance today, is that there is no "app" for it. :)

[DrB]

I think one of the things in favor of this site is the older demographic. I think arrogance and rudeness are in many ways born of lack of experience and ignorance... As I age, I like to think I have become more humble and more polite... Hey, its a work in progress. :)

Best regards,
DrB

[Char-Gar]

diehard.. I failed to truly understand the contribution the Scotch-Irish made to this country, until my wife who is a history professor got into genealogy. She is Scotch-Irish in as many directions are you can look and her ancestors played a significant role in early Virginia and the on to Tennessee and Texas.

The folks in the Southern Highlands are of pure Scotch-Irish descent. They tend to be family minded , keep to themselves and be self reliant. That is a Scotch-Irish trait no matter where they settled in this great country.

Those of us who were raised in different time, look back on those days and people with misty eyes. No all young people have gone down hill. They are many, many of them that are hard working, level headed and a fine tribute to those who have gone on before them.

[Char-Gar]

Dr. B.. Arrogance and rudeness only flourish when parents don't keep a rein on their children and allow them to seek the path of least resistance. Good character is not an accident of nature. It is taught.

[DrB]

Dr. B.. Arrogance and rudeness only flourish when parents don't keep a rein on their children and allow them to seek the path of least resistance. Good character is not an accident of nature. It is taught.

I do agree with that, chargar. The best mannered kids I know are home schooled. Folks in public education talk about the importance of "socialization." Our kids were spending a lot of time in a christian daycare when both my wife and I were working full time (and I was doing a lot of work travel). I appreciated the christian part, but I didn't appreciate at all the "socialization" my kids were getting from their peers. Some home schooling friends of mine pointed out to me that being "socialized" by kids of the same age was unnatural from a historical perspective, that adults should be setting the standard. I can't agree with that more, and I wonder how much of the changes in our society are because of the rise of the public education system combined with the rise of single parents (there just isn't enough time to both work and attend to children for a single parent without resources, at least on the average).

I don't think parents appreciating good character is an accident either, though, or just because their parents taught them right back to the nth generation... Bad character has consequences. Some learning comes from being told, some by watching others, some from finding out the hard way.

Best regards,
DrB

[Char-Gar]

Dr. B... Public schools have lots and lots of problems these days. The biggest of which is the dumbing down of the material and importance of mandated achievement tests. The teachers teach the students how to pass test and therefore the test is not a good tool to know what the kids know. Today's High School graduates know far less that those of prior generations. Most of them are not prepared to do University level work.

I also know folks who have had good luck with home schooling. But try as you might children cannot be isolated from their peers and matrix culture. How the children respond to and process that culture is the job of the parents.

In my lifetime I have seen the notion of being a parent be very downgraded. Parents look to the school, church, scout troop or whatever to teach their children values, discipline, manner and morals. These institutions try to play "catch up ball" best they can, but they can't correct poor parenting.

Being a parent requires both parents to make the raising of those children the primary focus of their lives during the growing up years. Few parents these days are willing to take enough time off from work, golf, night clubs, tennis or whatever to do their primary job, which is being a parent.

From my point of view, if I failed as a parent, I have failed to the uttermost, regardless of what other success I have had in my life. Dedicated, consistence and focused parenting can overcome public schools and a decadent culture.

That said, I do want to say that when the children are grown or nearly so, they make choices and often don't do well at that. Bad choices bring bad consequences. That is not the fault of the parent. WE hope to teach our children how to make quality decisions but that is as far as we can go. That is the way human nature has been since the Garden of Eden.

[diehard]

from my point of view, if i failed as a parent, i have failed to the uttermost, regardless of what other success i have had in my life.

+1!!!!

[DrB]

+1, we are in violent agreement.