First cast - good results, some questions

[BigSlick]

I finally got off my duff and decided to cast a few tonight.

I've been smelting for about 6 months and had a few ww ingots on hand. I ordered a few molds and they arrived yesterday. I had a ton of household **** to get done today, and a bit of work, but finally get down to business with the new Lee 4-20 and the 501-440 RF mold I got in.

I dropped six muffin ingots of straight ww's in the pot. It had been doubled fluxed when I smelted it, so it looked pretty clean.

I cranked the pot up to max, waited about 30 minutes for everything to get hot. I prepped the mold using the suggestions in the Leementing posts, lubed the mold and had at it.

I turned out 50 bullets, just to see if there were any mold occlusions I missed or anything of the sort. It took about 10 minutes using one two banger mold.

The bullets all filled out nicely, with sharp edges. Most had a very slight frost, but just barely. I mic'ed them, all were dropped at .503. Since I really don't have a clue as to the actual makeup of the ww alloy, I can live with it.

All weighed out between 446.8 and 447.6 (without the gas check in place). I'm going to have to search a little to see if that sheds any light on my alloy. It was straight ww's from a variety of sources, so it's probably all over the map. I haven't weighed a gas check yet, so I don't know how much weight the checks will add. I need to work up a load from scratch for these without a doubt. The CPB 440 WFNGC's I've been using weigh out at 437-438 with the gas check. The bullet is otherwise nearly identical.

From what I read here and elsewhere, a heavier weight may be indicative of more lead, less antimony and tin. The .002 oversize is within the tolerance Lee claims and not too big of a deal. I can put a very small indention in the bullets with my thumb nail with significant pressure. It does appear to be harder than pure (which I also have on hand as a reference) but maybe softer than I hoped for running them at about 1600 fps out of the 500SW. Even with a gas check.

Should I look into the reasoning regarding the extra weight and somewhat soft end result, or would it be prudent to shoot these, thinking the gas check may help enough to prevent leading all to hell ? I feel pretty certain these are softer than #2. Do any of you happen to know how much additional weight the Hornady 50 cal gas check will add ?

I have determined a few things. The mold guide is a PITA, the pot gets hotter than hades after a while and needs to be run at about a 6 after everything is hot, a 440gr mold really sucks the lead and I am all but certain I will overrun the molds when I drop 93gr .32 cals tommorrow.

In any event, the cheap rat bastard in me is hopeful. It took less than three ingots worth of lead and will require less than two bucks in gas checks to get what would have have otherwise cost me nearly $25 including the gas check, plus the sales tax or shipping.

Of course I spent the time and bucks to smelt, and haul those damned ww's around, but all in all I still think I saved a bundle in raw cash terms. The costs associated with the smelt can be amortized over a hell of a lot more than 5-6 ingots and I have a few left to work with to say the least.

I don't expect the Lee 2 holer molds to last forever, but until I get a few more bullets under my belt and scratch up some more cash, they'll do for now. Not one drip from the 4-20, but I won't be suprised if it does soon.

A big THANK YOU to all here who have contributed and been patient with my ignorant questions. I kinda feel like I got lucky, but if I can size and lube these and get the gas checks in place without hosing them up, I'm going to shoot them next week.

Turning out 50 bullets isn't exactly a milestone I know, but it beats hell out of sucking the hind tit of retailers and running out of bullets all the time ;) and for the first time in my life, I can say...

:castmine:

Thanks again to everyone, you all have been more help than you will ever know.

'Slick
________
PureSquirt (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/PureSquirt/)

[Bass Ackward]

From what I read here and elsewhere, a heavier weight may be indicative of more lead, less antimony and tin. The .002 oversize is within the tolerance Lee claims and not too big of a deal. I can put a very small indention in the bullets with my thumb nail with significant pressure. It does appear to be harder than pure (which I also have on hand as a reference) but maybe softer than I hoped for running them at about 1600 fps out of the 500SW. Even with a gas check.'Slick


Slick,

Be advise that any mix that contains antimoney will be softer when it is first molded than it's final hardness in about 14 days. you need to learn and understand the process. If you need a harder bullet than what you have produced, then you can simply water drop from the mold or oven HT.

Depending on the antimony content, you can use the oven and vary time and temperature and can control final hardness.

But you can't tell much from where you are at right now for sure. That bullet probably isn't much harder than 8 BHN this morning.

[Goatlips]

The mold guide is a PITA, the pot gets hotter than hades after a while and needs to be run at about a 6 after everything is hot, a 440gr mold really sucks the lead and
'Slick

BigSlick, I also found the mold guide on my Lee pot worse than useless for a six banger, so I just stacked up some hunks of marble slab under the pot to the correct height. Makes a great big target to return the mold to.

Goatlips

[9.3X62AL]

Slick--

I am seldom able to cast boolits and then shoot them within the next few days, so my boolits tend to "age-harden by default" vis-a-vis Bass Ackwards' information.

If the boolits fit the revolver throats and the groove diameter relates to the throat diameters correctly (same diameter or .001" smaller), your fresh cast boolits shouldn't cause leading problems, esp. with gas checks in place.

I HEAR YA about not being beholden to component suppliers for bullets. That might be the most satisfying element of the boolit crafting hobby.

What sizing method will you be using?

[BigSlick]

Thanks for the feedback guys. It really helps.

I will be patient and wait it out a few days for the bullets to age harden. If still too soft, I will melt them again and water quench.

I've read a few posts that state sizing after quenching or heat treat will negate some of the improvement due to crystalline structure being disturbed. Looks like some believe it affects hardness increase, others don't give this any creedence. So, sizing before heat treat is a no brainer, with quenching it's necessary for me to size afterward. Can some of you educumate me on the finer details ? Are hardness increases/improvements lost when sizing or is that something that isn't truly applicable ?

I will size with a Lee push thru or a RCBS LAM II, Lars Red and/or ALOX.

I weighed a few gas checks when I got off work this morning, 14.6-15.2gr. So my finished bullets will be in the 460gr range, about a 5% over stated mold weight. Lee claims to use a 10/1 ratio for their drop weights.

On another note, I've got 200 lbs pure on hand I would like to use. I also have about 60 lbs of clean Lino on hand. Is it worth mixing the Lino with the pure to make decent pistol bullets, or would it be better to sell/trade the pure and use the Lino for something else ?

Thanks again for the info guys ;)

'Slick
________
Synthetic Weed (http://syntheticweed.org)

[Ricochet]

I find it quite impractical to size hardened bullets. Too much force needed. Got to get to 'em quick, before they harden. I don't think sizing in that soft pre-hardening phase affects the final hardness, but I don't have proof. Lately I've been oven hardening big batches after sizing, anyway.

[twoworms]

BigSlick,

Thats the boolit I use in my 4" 500 S&W, it shoots great with WW and Lee Alox lube good luck with your casting.

I shoot them at 800 fps for plinking, and have loaded a max load of H Little gun moving them along at 1380 fps from my 4" barrel.

Tim

[9.3X62AL]

Slick--

I use a 92/6/2 blend, AKA Taracorp alloy, which is half unalloyed lead/half Linotype. It is a good multi-purpose alloy for handgun and rifle applications. Linotype by itself might be just the thing for 22 caliber rifle boolits, but for most uses the Taracorp does fine work for me--good castability, good strength vs. pressure, and nice-looking castings. Aesthetics counts, too. :-)

Just my take......I am a LOT more anal about boolit fit than I am about metallurgy. Plain old wheelweight metal with a gascheck can do pretty good work in rifles to 1700-1800 FPS, if it fits well and isn't over-twisted like a M-16A2 or milsurp 6.5 x 55 Swede. Just a guess--your WW boolits with the GC on board should do well without a lot of rigamarole, if fit is good. If fit is poor, all the metallurgy and lube magic on earth won't make up looseness between boolit and bore.

If you get a chance, go to the NEI Handtools site and read what the late Walt Melander said about leading and how it is created. His theory makes a lot of sense to me.

www.neihandtools.com

[454PB]

I have used 50% lino and 50% pure lead for rifle boolits, it is a very nice alloy comparable to "Taracorp", and tests 18 BHN. My standard alloy for magnum handgun boolits is 75% WW and 25% linotype, which is about 14 to 16 BHN depending on the age of the wheelweights. The older ones were harder.

Not to worry about the life span of your Lee moulds. I've been using them since they came out, and some of mine have cast 15K boolits. The only one that ever failed was ruined by my own abuse.

[BigSlick]

OK, I sized a bullet to .501 and it will not push thru the throats with pencil eraser pressure. It lodges tight at the throat.

I double checked the bullet being .501, it's dead on, as in exactly .501 from both a mic and a caliper.

I will cast a slug from pure tomorrow to see what actual throat dimension is. Also I will slug the barrel.

I read up on the relationship between throat size, groove size and leading. Not being a revolver guy, it was enlightening to say the least.

I ran across a post yesterday where one Smith 500 owner claimed that cast for 500SW Smiths need to be sized at .500. Everything else I've read indicates .501, and all the sizing gear is .501, so now I'm good and cornfused.

Is it possible/common that groove diameter and throat size are both .500 ? I've shot quite a bit of cast thru the beast and haven't seen the first sign of leading unless I was running a 330gr MasterCast non gas checked bullet at 1900 fps (which is somewhat expected). Cast Performance 440 WFNGC's seem to load and shoot just fine. I'll dig some of those out when i get home and mic a few to see what actual diameter is.

Looks like I've got a ways to go before I understand the details enough to make a sound decision.

Any suggestions or links that might help me understand what I'm facing here are most welcome.

Sorry to be such a greenhorn :confused:
________
Volcano vaporizer (http://twitter.com/vaporizer)

[Bass Ackward]

I will cast a slug from pure tomorrow to see what actual throat dimension is. Also I will slug the barrel.

I read up on the relationship between throat size, groove size and leading. Not being a revolver guy, it was enlightening to say the least.

:confused:


Slick,

You win. If more people would slug, they wouldn't need to read this board so often. That is the foundation to first rate success.

Now if you understand all these relationships, you will be the first guy on the planet. I use different mixes for different applications. Let me translate that for you, what ever I get for free. In handguns, my guns prefer different diameters based on what mix, notice I didn't say hardness, I am shooting.

I am a newbie still learning too. Sometimes two and three times over. But life will go a lot smoother too if you can go to a library and read or buy a Lyman manual on casting. Then you get all the lies from one place. :grin:

[44man]

I would say the .501 boolits will be the best as long as the rounds chamber and that would be the only reason I would size at all, is if they didn't. Sizing a hard boolit and the force needed depends on how much is sized. The skin that is sized is the only part that will soften so if you only size .0005", that would be the most soft part and you will never notice anything. A lot of hard alloys grow in diameter as well as harden more when they age and this would make it hard to size but WW metal is not as bad and doesn't change a lot. Softening the surface when sizing these real hard boolits still leaves the surface harder then a softer alloy, so again, I never worry about it. Remember the boolit gets sized in the barrel too so what difference does it make when it is sized or how soft you make the skin?
I would shoot what you made and just water drop more to compare them. I would not worry when to size unless you go to a harder alloy. Then if you size right away, you can watch them grow over time anyway. My .475 boolits, with my alloy will grow .0025" with age. They still chamber at .4785 and are very accurate even though I can't push one through the throats. Smaller diameter boolits will not grow as much and larger ones get fatter.
We sure have a strange sport, don't we?

[BigSlick]

OK, slugged everything.

The groove diameter is exactly .500, the throats are all the same, more than .500, but less than .501.

I called SW, and they say their spec's call for throat diameters anywhere from .4993-.5007.

With my limited skills of interpretation of what I've read the past couple of days, this sounds OK.

Should I shoot the .501 bullets and not worry about shaving at the throats or open up the throats to .501 ? Will the difference between the .500x throats and the .500 groove provide a snug enough fit to seal/obturate properly so leading is at a minimum ? Will the throats being slightly smaller cause any significant pressure increase ?

I know I can shoot them to see what happens, but would like to have an idea what to expect/check when I'm done.

Thanks again for the help ;)
________
Weed vaporizer (http://weedvaporizer.info/)

[9.3X62AL]

Slick--

Your boolt size/throat size/groove size relationship is potentially IDEAL. Check 'em, size 'em, lube 'em, load 'em, and discharge 'em. Repeat as needed, and start all over when the brass is all emptied out. :-)

I try to obtain a condition like yours when possible with my revolvers. I have one of the Ruger Blackhawks in 45 Colt (7.5" Bisley) that had the notorious ".452" groove/.449" throats" arrangement from the factory. Sturm Ruger called it a "product specification, and within allowable tolerances". I called it other things you wouldn't want your grandparents to hear you saying.

I used one of the piloted throat reamers to open the throats to .4525", and smoothed them out with garnet paper to .453". I use .454" boolits through .453" throats into .452" grooves, and this turned my "one boolit wonder" into a friendlier tool that now shoots about everything pretty well--and both #454190 and #454424 VERY well.

Don't turn wrenches on things until you KNOW and CONFIRM that they are BROKEN.

[GP100man]

big slick

got it bad dont ya!!

need some range time bad ,sounds like to me!!!
nothing like gratification in ones efforts!!!!

GP

[BigSlick]

Your boolt size/throat size/groove size relationship is potentially IDEAL

How's that for a bad case of ignorant and blind luck ;) I dropped another 300 tonight. I got about 20 rejects that would probably shoot, at the beginning until the moulds heated up good. A little slight skin wrinkle on the nose, but the bases fulled out nice and square with good edges everywhere. I rejected them because they were lighter by about 3 grains than the rest of them.

With a Hornady gas check and a shot of LAR's Red, they weigh in at 467gr.

I took one of the rejects, and one of the bullets I cast a couple of days ago and put them in a vise and mashed them together. The bullets from today are definitely softer, they indented more than the bullets cast Saturday. All are from the same smelt, same pot, same batch, so it looks like a few more days and maybe they will all harden up some.

Now I'm going to tackle the whole .32 H&R mag thing. I'm dropping .314 bullets, got a .312 size die. I haven't slugged the J frame yet, since I had to drag myself to work. I will try to sneak out at dinner and get that done.

Thanks for the help and patience in dealing with my ramblings ;)

Yep, it looks like I got it bad. Eight more calibers to deal with, a pile of ingots and it won't be long until spring.

I hope my luck holds ;)
________
Mercedes-Benz Ponton (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Ponton)

[Dale53]

BigSlick;
From S&W .500 to .32 S&W Magnum? What a change!:mrgreen: However, you are not entirely crazy - I shoot lots of .44 magnum but more .32 H&R Magnum as you might have guessed with my previous posts.

You might try the .32's at the "as cast" diameter. They may do just fine (if you can chamber them). My .32's may not chamber .314" without running them through a Lee Factory Crimp Die. However, sized at .313" they work really well with excellent accuracy. Right now my bullets of choice are the .32 Keith Group Buy 100 gr and/or the .314" 120gr RF Group buy. I borrowed a RCBS .32 SWC 100 gr and it works just fine at .312" or .313". It is a really good looking bullet and works as good as it looks.

I like most revolvers and some autos but must admit that I, for some reason, appreciate the .32's most of all (.32 S&W L and .32 H&R Mag). Of course, for deer hunting it is hard to beat a .44 magnum class handgun. I do not use less for deer.:drinks:

Dale53

[BigSlick]

for some reason, appreciate the .32's most of all

I know exactly how you feel.

It's an odd little caliber to many, but I just can't stay away from it. It's just that much fun to shoot.

I just missed the last GB on the 32's. I would *really* like to have one (actually two) of the RCBS .32 100gr SWC moulds, and I do mean *really*.

I had to settle for the Lee 93gr 6 banger .311.

I've been shooting the Meister 94gr .312 SWC and the J frame likes it pretty well. They're just hard to find in this area and factory jacketed pricing is outrageous.

The little 32H&R never fails to amaze when someone shoots it for the first time. To a person, the first thing you can expect after they pull the trigger the first time is an ear to ear grin.

Accuracy is excellent and the power it delivers suprises a lot of shooters. It certainly isn't a big bore magnum by any stretch, but most shooters are suprised the by power that comes from such a tiny round. Recoil is light, so shooting all day long won't wear you out.

Without a doubt, it is one of my all time favorites.
________
Half-baked (http://half-baked.com)

[BigSlick]

I spent about an hour on the range this morning, just long enough to launch a few cylinders (50 rnds) thru the beast.

I like the bullet.

Accuracy is very, very good.

Scoped, I got under 2" at 50 yds with a starting workup load. I went kind of light with the H4227, since the total weight is heavier than any loads I've shot with the 440 from CPB. No pressure signs, avg 1060 fps. I know I can up this a tad and if it performs like other 4227 loads it will tighten up nicely as the charge is increased.

After a thorough inspection with a good bore light and a good size wad of patches with cleaner - zero evidence of leading :drinks:

This is the first time I have used any loads with the Lars Red Carnauba. It smokes a whole lot less than some of the other lubes I've shot in the past.

It's cheap, it works and doesn't stink, not bad at all for a buck and a half a stick.

Now, I'm going to see if I can wear my Lee mold out, or run out of lead. Got today off.

The mold is new, and I have a bunch of ingots... life is good :cool:
________
VAPIR NO2 VAPORIZER (http://vapirno2.net)

[ANeat]

Now, I'm going to see if I can wear my Lee mold out, or run out of lead. Got today off.

The mold is new, and I have a bunch of ingots... life is good :cool:

Hey Slick; Glad to see youre getting some suitable projectiles cast. For a while I thought you were gonna get a gun that shoots lead muffins[smilie=1:

Sounds like you have that great combination of gun/bullet/lube. Its a beautiful thing.

I have a feeling your arm will give out before you wear out the mold or run out of lead:mrgreen:

A good day of casting will make many fine days of shooting:Fire:

Adam

[BigSlick]

For a while I thought you were gonna get a gun that shoots lead muffins

Well... that would cut down on load development time :mrgreen:

I got a line last night on 400 lbs of lead locally. Looks like it is all monotype :Fire:

The guy wants to swap something instead of sell it. Any idea what monotype is worth ?

You know me... I'm going to get it one way or another.
________
LovelyWendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[ANeat]

Well it looks like from this chart there are several kinds of Monotype. If you had to buy it new it might cost several dollars a pound. Heck if he shoots you could always cast him some bullets in trade:castmine:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/aneat/Lead/TypeMetal.jpg