9mm : the flat tire that never ends

[milprileb]

Okay, I changed my alloy to 8.5 # WW and 1.5# pure lead, water quench bullets and sized them to .356. Before I was doing 100% WW water quenched and sized .356.

Rn 124 gr Lee Bullets sized .356 leaded with pure WW, stick lube on Lyman 450
Same bullets sized .357 had no lead. stick lube on Lyman 450
Powder charge is 3.8 gr BE for both loads.

Good to go I said: I now got the right alloy and sizing for this pistol. So I order a 120 gr TC six banger mold, cast up 1500 bullets, water quench, size them with stick lube on 450 to .357 and I am all set.

Load them up and use 3.8 gr BE and test them out. They shot a great group six inches to the left of where RN bullets fire and 50 rounds put lead down the barrel. Streaks of lead.

I don't get it. I thought I had alloy, sizing all sorted out. I have no pressure signs on brass using this 3.8 BE loading. Perfect feeding of bullets but those TC leaded.

Shoot same sizing, same alloy 124 gr RN bullet , same 3.8 gr BE, same stick lube and sized .357 and I get great accuracy and zero leading

Anyone of you Cast Bullet Soothsayers got any clue what is going on?

I am getting a .358 sizing die and try that on the 120 gr TC and see if that helps.

Meanwhile , I got 1450 beautiful 120 gr TC sized .357 bullets.

9mm is becoming a real challenge. I got no issues with 45acp cast bullets and loads but 9mm is full of gremlins.

Is this a Communist Plot ????

[deltaenterprizes]

Try cutting back to 3.5 gr

[williamwaco]

I have two 9s. Both Kimbers. I size them .356 and use 3.2 gr BE with that bullet. works fine for me.

Yes, my bore slugs .356 so theoritically my load is no good.

And no it is not a communist plot but it IS a conspiricy and they ARE out to get you.

[mdi]

Have you tried not water dropping?

[GabbyM]

I gave up on Bullseye in a 9mm thirty years ago. Try something like WW231 at 4.0 to 4.1 grains.

TC bullet takes up quite a bit more case capacity than the RN bullets. Your pressure is probably higher with a different curve.
There is also a common issue with swaging down the deeper seated bullets from the case not being expanded deep enough. A Lyman M die can save you some grief. You can also easily crush the bullet with to much taper crimp die. Since you’ve had .357” bullets working in the past I’d suspect bullet crushing first then powder charge.

[milprileb]

Thanks guys, I will make some 3.5 and 3.2 gr BE loads and try again.

I got some of the TC 120 gr lubed now with White Label (aka Lars, aka Glenn, aks LAR)
Lube (BAC flavor) so if nothing else, I know the lube will be top shelf on the next
batch I shoot.

I got WW 231 and will brew up some 4.0 gr loads as suggested.

I will load some and then pull bullets and see if I am swaging diameter of bullet.

[milprileb]

Have I tried not water dropping.

No I have not. I saw little difference in 45acp accuracy
of bullets water dropped and those air cooled so I did not
air cool any of the TC 120 gr.

If changing powder charges does not help my situation, I will cast and air cool some
TC up pronto.

9mm: very dynamic to cast for IMHO.

[blikseme300]

I have been casting, reloading & shooting 9mmP for many years but only recently found the recipe that really works for me.

Reloading Gear: My favorite press is the Lee Pro 1000. Yes, it has limitations but with some effort it can be a winner. The expander die needs some work though as it does a poor job of belling and opening up the brass for boolit insertion.

I machine the die body shorter and rework the belling die to open up the brass better. If this is not done then the brass will swage the boolit too small. Size matters in 9mm, pun intended. I have 3 9mmP pistols, BHP, CZ75BD & Stoeger Cougar and all slug at .356

Boolit size: Best size, using a modified Lee TC 120gn is at .358 and lube sized at .357 in a Star using Lars BAC as lube. (Mold has been modified to cast bigger.) I use AC cast WW boolits. Sometimes I add some tin if mold fill-out is spotty.

Powder: I use HP38 as it is a good powder and is available in 8lb kegs. BTW - I load 4.2gn - Use this at your own risk. Load is smokey, but burns clean. I only shoot outdoors anyway.

To summarize:

Size - most important.
Lube - very important.
Powder - IMHO is a 3rd level factor. I use HP38 because it is available and not expensive.

Your mileage my vary.

Bliksem

[milprileb]

How did you get mold to drop larger bullets

[Doby45]

Beagle it.

[milprileb]

Hey Doby,

What is beageling ?

[Doby45]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=3167018

[leadman]

Easy to lap out the Lee molds with kitchen cleanser and water to make a paste. Check for the sticky on Leementing for the procedure.

The Lee TC boolit has more bearing surface than the roundnose. I make the same boolit for my sons Ruger P89, size it to .358" as the bore is .357". No leading ever with LARs Carnuba Red. BAC should also work well.

[noylj]

Just jumping in. If 0.357" works, and that is a good size for most post-1960 era 9x19s, than use that. Don't size the bullets smaller.
If you need a larger diameter, then add more tin/antimony--this will increase bullet diameter and lower the bullet weight.
You don't need water quenching and 0.358" Hornady swaged lead 140gn "Cowboy" bullets work great in my 9x19s and .38 Supers with virtually no leading.
The one thing that the lead boolit reloader needs, and very seldom has, is an expander "spud" large enough to increase the case ID where the bullet will be seated to between 0.001" and 0.002" smaller than bullet diameter--and it needs to increase the case ID for the entire length that the boolit will be seated.
If you try to seat a lead boolit into a case that is smaller, you are going to swage down the boolit and quite likely develop a case bulge at the case's thinnest wall.
I shooting 0.357" bullets, I use a 0.357" expander. The case will spring back into the 0.001-0.002" region. This means to get a custom expander plug (see Lee) or use a .38 or 9x18Mak expander plug.

[JRHYS]

When leading in a barrel comes up, I simply don't know why all the experts don't want to talk about BHN numbers. Anyone having problems with leading, get a few samples of the bullet you are casting and a Lee Hardness Tester, then check bullets that are leading to properly cast and sized bullets. Hardness does matter in a barrel with shallow rifling.

[milprileb]

JRHYS

I was shooting pure WW water quenched and BNH was 21. I added lead as experts here said I did not need that hard a bullet in 9mm.

If you think the leading is soft alloy ( I am using 1.5# Lead to 8.5 # WW) water quenched, then I can go back to WW.

Do you have a BNH number in mind for 9mm ?

Up to this point, the board members told me sizing was critical (I went then from .356 to .357) and I increased sizing. That stopped all leading in the round nose bullets.

The issue is the 120 gr TC design: same alloy , sized .357, stick lubed on 450 Lyman and I expected this bullet not to lead but it does.

Open to your reaction please

[Whistler]

I tried some load development for my 1911 with IGB barrel yesterday.
No leading whatsoever with the Lee 358-105-SWC at 1250 fps.

OAL was 1.055" and the loads tested were 3.6, 3.8, 4.0 and 4.2gn of VihtaVuori N320. Pressure levels were about 22-25k PSI from QuickLoad. I used water quenched WW sized to .358 with Carnauba Red.

Some word of caution for using this bullet, most 9mm seater dies will not be able to seat such a short and pointy bullet without having the die screwed in deep enough to land a heavy crimp. The crimp will close the case mouth before the bullet is properly seated which will shave lead from the boolit. I use a .38 Special die with a wadcutter seater stem instead, then crimp with a Redding Taper crimp in the next station. The difference is day and night.

[milprileb]

In my reloading , I always seat and taper crimp as two separate events using dies made for this task.

However, I don't think my seating and crimp procedures are causing my leading problems. I got a very wide bell on my brass and I get zero shaving of lead when seating. The TC bullet has a slight bevel on the base which further helps seating without issues.

Before I chuck 1450 sized .357 bullets already lubed with BAC, I am going to play with powder charges, powders and bullet seating depths. If all of that yields no love and I still get leading, then I will change to .358 sized bullets .

I am reluctant to change the alloy: it works in 125 gr RN bullets and does not lead. I think alloy may not be the variable to worry about at this point in the drama

[btroj]

When leading in a barrel comes up, I simply don't know why all the experts don't want to talk about BHN numbers. Anyone having problems with leading, get a few samples of the bullet you are casting and a Lee Hardness Tester, then check bullets that are leading to properly cast and sized bullets. Hardness does matter in a barrel with shallow rifling.

Not always true. I had a 1911 that leaded with one bullet. Cast soft, hard, or in between, it leaded. I changed lube and the leading went away.
Hardness CAN be a factor but fit is key. A hard bullet will make poor fit worse, not better.

I suggest this for the OP. Take some of your sized and lubed bullets. Add a light coat of LLA to them... Load em and shoot em. This will give ou some indication of where or not it is a lube issue. My problem 45 auto bullet stopped leading with this treatment. I changed lubes after that and no more leading.

Every fun is an individual. Your may just may not like the new bullet. Small differences in shape or bearing surface can make a huge difference to a gun.

[GabbyM]

I’ll just expand upon what I posted in #5.

If you look at the seating depth of the round nose compared to the TC bullet you’ll see the TC bullet seats much deeper. Standard expanders expand a 9mm case enough for RN bullets but not TC bullets or the 147gr FN bullets. If you have a kinetic bullet puller knock out a seated bullet and observe. Usually you have a base that looks like a boat tail. Lyman M dies go deeper than other expanders I’ve had. 9mm cases taper to a very strong side wall and you are not going to expand that with a cast bullet unless you use a super hard bullet. Some will use a softer bullet then find success because it obdurate the crushed tail back up. Some use bullet .003” over grove to allow more room to crush. Those cures are a forced solution to poor case prep. Even the Lyman M die I have is a tad short. If you are using .357” bullets and have a 357 revolver expander you may try that to see if it will fit.

I’ve been telling people for a couple years the easiest way to get a 9mm to shoot is use a 124gr RN bullet because that’s what all the die sets are optimized to load.

Lyman M die runs $14.41 at one of my favorite catalogs. If you are using .357" or larger bullets the .357 revolver M die is what I'd get. You can always chuck the plug in a drill and polish it down or even grind off some of the tip end to shorten it.

Here is an old thread I started that rambles on about the subject. Includes some dimensional measurements. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=95269

Not everyone agrees with me on this case prep strategy but I can’t understand there arguments against it. The other option is to attempt to set up your size die to only size the case down to bullet diameter -.002”. Good luck with that.

Even with a jacketed TC round or the 147’s an M die will help accuracy by providing for more concentric loads. Most case bulges you find will be more pronounced on one side. Don’t need a run out gage to see that’ll hurt groups.

[reloader28]

We fought and fought with my brothers 9mm.
Air cooled, heat treated, this size, that size, different lube.
I finally gave in and got a plain base gas check maker and fixed the problem.
4gr Bullseye and no leading whatsoever and good accuracy.
Easy, easy fix.

[milprileb]

The 120 gr TC is a slight Bevel Base. Can you gas check that ?

Oh yeah, this alloy or that, this temp of melt or that , this lube or that, this sizing or that, this powder charge or that, this OAL or t hat, this design of bullet or that, Bevel base or flat base, ...... not like its NON INTENSIVE or anything !!!

[uscra112]

Did I miss something? He said boolits sized .357 - no leading. Seems to me the question is already answered. . . . . .

[Bullwolf]

Bullseye is a pretty quick burning powder, one of the fastest even.

While Bullseye is very economical to use, I believe the fast pressure it provides is more prone to slip past a bullet who's fit is not perfect, causing gas cutting and leading.

I would try some .358 diameter boolits in your gun, assuming that you can still get them to chamber.

Perhaps cast a smaller test batch using some beagling tape on the mold. Give that a shot, and see what your results are.

I think it is also much easier to work up a nice low pressure cast boolit load that doesn't lead, using a slower burning powder. I prefer Unique, or even Blue Dot for that caliber.

Both seem to give me a lot more wiggle room, than when using a fast burning powder like Bullseye, Red Dot, or W231 in my cast 9mm loads.

Just a couple of things that you could try.


- Bullwolf

[casterofboolits]

I have had great success sizing my 9's to 357 and loading with BlueDot. BlueDot has been my "go to" powder for 380, 9 and the 38 Super since the mid 80's.

[milprileb]

I get leading with the TC bullet , not the RN bullet. TC has a BB and RN has a flat base. I have reduced powder charge of BE to 3.3 gr. Next option is Blue dot or Unique and stop using BE which has been fine to date with the RN bullet.

If changing of powder does not work, I will get .358 sizer and ramp up to that from .357.

I measured my bullets when pulled from live ammo: I am not swaging bullets.

My bullets when sized in Lyman 450 at .357 are running .3575 to .358 on my calipers.

[DukeInFlorida]

For my cast 9's, I use 50-50 alloy (50% pure, 50% ww), and air cool them. I size mine at .356 and use my own modified version of Felix lube, and then Xlox them.

I use Titegroup powder, and have no leading issues.

Be careful to not over crimp! Reducing the diameter of the boolit by over crimping can lead to all sorts of leading issues, even when everything else is perfect.

[milprileb]

Crimp: I set it lighter yesterday and pulled bullets do not reflect any distortions so hopefully the crimp is not going to enter in to my drama. I am using 1.5 pounds of lead to 8.5 pounds of WW metal in the alloy and lubed with 450 using BAC (White Labe lube) and as stated: sized .357 RN 124 gr bullets do not lead, same sized 120 TC bullets lead.

It may be my powder and powder charge combined with that bevel base on the 120gr TC bullet in 9mm that all contributes to this situation. I have changed crimp, powder charge on the next test batch. If no luck then, I will go to another powder and begin anew the testing.

[Doby45]

sized .357 RN 124 gr bullets do not lead, same sized 120 TC bullets lead.

This is simply a question of curiosity and nothing more. If you have a 120ish gr boolit that works fine, why are you beating this horse? Run with your 125gr RNFPs and enjoy shooting. Now if you are doing it simply for the challenge then more power to ya.

[milprileb]

Yes, no issue with RN and big issues with TC FP bullets.

Well,, I bought the 120 TC mold and got 1450 nice bullets lubed here and sized.

I am beating this horse because I don't think its the alloy, water vs air coolling, bullet mold, bullet design , or sizing but its something I am doing like wrong powder or bullet seating or some other variable.

I do not discount bevel base on TC bullet helping this drama happen.

So why do I chase a solution: Because I am hoping some of you have been there before and can steer me out of this quagmire.

[Char-Gar]

Lots of folks seem to have issues with cast bullet in the 9mm Luger. I don't claim to be an expert, but have shot many thousands with no problems and with no more difficulty than the 45 ACP. I won't tell you what you should do, but I will tell you what I do.

1. The bullets are 120 grain plain base SWCs from an NEI mold.
2. The alloy is ACWW
3. The powder is AA5 which was designed for the 9mm round. It is a hair slower than Unique, and Unique works very well also.
4. I keep the velocity to between 1K and 1.1K fps. These loads will cycle every pistol I have. tried including a Luger.
5. Accuracy has been on par with standard ball ammo in all pistols.
6. I size the bullets .357 or .358. I have not found much difference, if any, between the two.
7. I use a properly adjust taper crimp.

I don't pretend to have great knowledge on the subject, just have found an approach that seems to work for me. I have fired this stuff in;

1. 1913 DWM Luger
2. Walter P-38
3. Two Browning High Powers
4. Beretta 92
5. Smith and Wesson 59
6. Sig P239

P.S.... I really don't like water dropped bullets..really don't.

[milprileb]

Air cool bullets on my next casting batch for sure.

Thank you for insights and powder choices for next phase of testing.

Next cast session might be soon if leading continues with 3.3 gr BE pushing these water cooled
alloy bullets. If I got to melt down 1400 bullets and start anew: gotta do it.

[gefiltephish]

I use this same bullet for my XD9 and have always had leading issues with it. I also have a mihec 124 hp mold and that bullet does not lead at all, but is inaccurate. Same alloy, dies, lube etc. After much head scratching and experimenting, the conclusion I've come to is that the lube groove on the TC is much too small. I've even simultaneously tried conventional lubing and tumble lubing with no improvement. I know many have been successful with this bullet so...

Having said all that, I'm working with Buckshot now to create the correct M die expansion plug to eliminate a swaging-while-seating problem. Possibly this will (help) eliminate the leading of the TC and/or the inaccuracy of the mihec bullet. Not gonna hold my breath.

[Dannix]

I also have a mihec 124 hp mold and that bullet does not lead at all, but is inaccurate.
Interesting. Did you start a thread concerning that? I'd be interested in what others think concerning this, particularly as I just signed up for the FN version of that boolit.


Having said all that, I'm working with Buckshot now to create the correct M die expansion plug to eliminate a swaging-while-seating problem. Possibly this will (help) eliminate the leading of the TC and/or the inaccuracy of the mihec bullet. Not gonna hold my breath.
Hope that works for you. Please post once you've tried it out.

[BulletFactory]

lol, you should try a .40

[Dannix]

Hey Doby,

What is beageling ?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=117331

[gefiltephish]

Interesting. Did you start a thread concerning that? I'd be interested in what others think concerning this, particularly as I just signed up for the FN version of that boolit.

I've discussed it several times here. Others haven't had the problem that I've had with either bullet, so I just assume it's something particular with my setup. To shorten a long and boring story, after about a year of leaving the 9mm sit in the safe, I decided to pull it out and have another go at it. Again I pulled a couple seated bullets but this time discovered a serious swaging issue. Having check this initially (it's one of the first pieces of advice folks here give), I have no idea how I missed it. BTW, I had previously knocked the carbide ring out the FCD.

At this point I'll have to disregard any previous opinions/conclusions I had come to. I'll reassess after tackling the swaging problem. However as for leading difference between the two bullets, I suspect I'll remain convinced that the TC's groove is too small. One caveat, I had lapped the TC cavities which could/would effectively make the groove smaller yet. Leading didn't get any worse after though. My hope is to get the accuracy of the mihec to be at least as good as the TC, and hopefully better. I'll then forget about the Lee mold altogether.

[rototerrier]

I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on the BHN question posted earlier? I was wondering if there is an ideal target we are shooting for? Seems 19-21 is around the norm for Water Dropped WW. What is it for Air Cooled and what should be be trying to achieve?

[376Steyr]

Nobody has mentioned that the 9mm runs at about double the pressure of the 45 ACP. If I had a bunch of water dropped WW already cast and lubed, I'd try a slower powder than Bullseye. Maybe that would be a better fit than the sharp "kick in the pants" that Bullseye produces.

[Cherokee]

I use the same conventional lube Lee 120TC bullet in 9mm and Super 38 at 1k to 1.3k velocity. I found a 3/3/94 alloy of 13 BHN, air cooled, gave better accuracy in MY guns than WW. All mine are .355 barrels so I size to .356. OAL for the 9mm is 1.055" for MY match chambered guns. I do not get perfectly clean barrels, they do have some trace leading but do not seem to hamper accuracy after 2-300 rounds and clean up easily. My most accurate 9mm load is with Power Pistol but WST, 231 and HS6 also do very well.

[scrapcan]

rototerrier,

there is a descrition of pairing your hardness to your pressures in teh Lee Handloading manual. The concept has to do with strength of the alloy (mechanics of materials plays in to this if you are into engineering topics).

I think there are a few threads about that here on the forum. Several ways to calculate the model so a bit of reading might be in order.

You also might find that for your purposes the hardness does not make as big a difference as fit and lube.

It is fun calculating and testing though.

[JRHYS]

[QUOTE=milprileb;1322918]JRHYS

I was shooting pure WW water quenched and BNH was 21. I added lead as experts here said I did not need that hard a bullet in 9mm.

If you think the leading is soft alloy ( I am using 1.5# Lead to 8.5 # WW) water quenched, then I can go back to WW.

Do you have a BNH number in mind for 9mm ?

Up to this point, the board members told me sizing was critical (I went then from .356 to .357) and I increased sizing. That stopped all leading in the round nose bullets.

The issue is the 120 gr TC design: same alloy , sized .357, stick lubed on 450 Lyman and I expected this bullet not to lead but it does.

I'm speaking from my reloading experiences only. I prefer a BHN of 15 to 18 for double action autos. Every cast bullet that I have purchased was between this hardness range. Jerry

[MtGun44]

AC wwts run around 12 BHN. Don't sweat the hardness, other than to not make them
too hard!

Most 9mm problems are too small, too hard and crummy lube.

Lee 356 120 TC from ac wwts, with NRA 50-50 at .357 or .358 works perfectly in all
my 9mms. Not one of them (Browning, Sig, Beretta, Keltech, etc) has any problems.
Full pressure load with an obscure French powder, so the load data will be useless to
you. Unique or W231 have both produced excellent results, too.

FIT is the first thing and making sure you are not shrinking the boolit when seating.

Spend some time with the search function, there are dozens of "my 9mm is leading and
hitting sidways" threads.

Bill

[Ausglock]

I use the same conventional lube Lee 120TC bullet in 9mm and Super 38 at 1k to 1.3k velocity. I found a 3/3/94 alloy of 13 BHN, air cooled, gave better accuracy in MY guns than WW. All mine are .355 barrels so I size to .356. OAL for the 9mm is 1.055" for MY match chambered guns. I do not get perfectly clean barrels, they do have some trace leading but do not seem to hamper accuracy after 2-300 rounds and clean up easily. My most accurate 9mm load is with Power Pistol but WST, 231 and HS6 also do very well.

G'day Cherokee.
Mate. I'd be interested in what your loads are for the 9mm and 38 Super with power pistol with the 120TC pill.

[casterofboolits]

Just had my first problem with the enigmatic 9mm. I've been using an H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB in all my nines. HP, TZ75, Tanfoglio. Sized 357 over BlueDot with no leading.

I've been helping new reloader set up for the nine. He put a couple dozen of my reloads thru his HiPoint (?) carbine with no leading. He had bought the Lee Classic turret press and removed the bottom carbide ring from the FCD. He also purchased a S&W 9mm M&P to partner his carbine.

He loaded his first 50 rounds and set up a target in front of his brother's wood pile. He fired off twenty rounds from the Smith and stopped as he was hitting ten inches low and brought the pistol for me to look at. There was a fair amount of leading. The rounds fit the chamber perfectly. I pulled two of his rounds and the boolits were still .357, but the bases had some shaved lead on the bottoms. I think he had not flared the cases enough and damaged the bases when seating the boolits and this is the source of the leading. There was no lead around the case mouth.

The leading was easily removed with a brush and Hoppes #9. It came out in small flakes, not strands.

I sent him home to check the flare and load a few more rounds to try in the pistol. I also had him reduce his charge by a full grain as he was 1.3 grains more than my standard load! I'm going along when he tests the new loads out and taking few of my reloads along.

A note on the S&W M and P, the sights are blinking PLASTIC.

[Larry Gibson]

AC wwts run around 12 BHN. Don't sweat the hardness, other than to not make them
too hard!

Most 9mm problems are too small, too hard and crummy lube.

Lee 356 120 TC from ac wwts, with NRA 50-50 at .357 or .358 works perfectly in all
my 9mms. Not one of them (Browning, Sig, Beretta, Keltech, etc) has any problems.
Full pressure load with an obscure French powder, so the load data will be useless to
you. Unique or W231 have both produced excellent results, too.

FIT is the first thing and making sure you are not shrinking the boolit when seating.

Spend some time with the search function, there are dozens of "my 9mm is leading and
hitting sidways" threads.

Bill

Concur with Bill. I've been shooting AC'd WW cast 358242, 356402 and 356-120-TCs along with several others lubed with Javelina (NRA 50/50 lube) and sized .356, .357 and .359 for many years out of a pleathora of 9mm handguns and subguns. I've never had leading or tumbling of the bullets. I have been loading the 120-125 gr bullets over 4 gr of Bullseye. That has always worked and has always given excellent accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[casterofboolits]

9mm is always a challenge. l suggest (as l suspect you now know) cast up small #s until you have a load dialed in for that specific boolit. Good luck,

I just cast 2,600 of this boolit as I have used it for twenty five years! :confused::popcorn:

[milprileb]

My flat tire continues. I dropped the charge of BE to 3.3 gr pushing the 120 gr TC bullet in 9mm , BAC lube, alloy is 1.5# lead to 8.5# WW water quenched. I still get leading in barrel and bullet is sized .357. Now I don't get the degree of leading I had with .356 sized bullets.

I am going over to Unique powder, cast one batch of lead/ WW alloy air cooled and one batch pure WW air cooled. Will stick lube with BAC and size them to .358.

If I continue to have leading , I will try to adjust powder charges. But at some point, I will drop the 120 gr TC bullet and go back to the RN 125 which was not leading. They did not lead at .357 sized (did at .356).

[Doby45]

I would size to .358 before I did anything else. LOTS of 9mms take a .358 boolit just fine, all of mine do.

[rototerrier]

I had posted something very similar to this recently and have just about gotten my leading solved.

I have gone to a 358 Sizing die with Lars BAC lube. I fired off a couple of these recently and only had a very minimal amount of residue and leading at the beginning of the barrel. Nothing toward the end.

Originallly I had leading at the beginning and end..not much in the middle.

It would appear my sizing and lubing has solved 75% of the problem. The rest I believe is in the hardness. I am using water cooled WW and am going to cast up a batch of air cooled. I am pretty confident I am going to completely eliminate all leading once I get that done.

I could probably shoot thousands of rounds doing it exactlly as I am doing now...but since this is all about enjoyment and striving for perfection...I am going to go the extra mile and get it perfect.

For reference, I am using Win 231 @ 4.2gr sized to .358 in a Lone Wolf Glock barrel. Water cooled WW and going to go to Air cooled. Might have to tone the charge down a little but will start with 4.2 since that has been very accurate for me. Mold is Lee 356-125-2R leemented to drop at around .359. OAL 1.125

I have also finally learned the feel of the pressure on my Lyman 450 lubesizer. I was originally not putting that much pressure on it and I think I was not getting a really hard solid lube ring. They looked alright...but I have since really started putting a lot more pressure on it and the lube ring is coming out a lot more filled in and compressed.

[biscot]

I'll tell my story since 9mm is all I shoot and I've put about 20,000 rounds through a 1911 and a HiPower in the past few months since I started casting, and have no leading issues.
I use WW with a pinch of tin and/or linotype mixed in for good measure, cast at 675 degrees in a Magma mastercaster with Magma molds, and water-drop.
For the 1911 I use a 135gr RN, for the HiPower (it won't chamber the RN) I use a magma TC bullet that is very similar to the Lee 125 gr TC.
I size them both to .357 (both barrels slug at .355) and lube with a hard lube - Magma blue.
I use fairly light powder loads, just enough to make minor power factor (bullet weight in grains X muzzle velocity in fps = 125.000, in case anyone is not familiar with the terminology). I've used W231, BlueDot, Unique with no problems, but have settled on Bullseye because it seems to burn the cleanest with my light loads.
The 1911 is the one I shoot the most, and I load the RN boolit long, at full SAAMI spec. I do get a tiny bit of leading at the throat, but it's no worse after 1,000 rounds than it is after 10, and doesn't affect accuracy at all.
I attribute my lack of leading problems to boolit fit and fairly low muzzle velocity (around 950 fps for the heavier boolit). I don't know how the boolit hardness and lube fit into the equation - I have a situation that works, so I've quit messing with it. I just cast, load, and shoot.
When I first started casting for the HiPower, I had considerable leading problems which I was only able to solve by replacing the barrel with one which had a smaller bore - the factory barrel slugged at about .358 - I just couldn't load a boolit big enough, I guess.

edit - I should add that the barrels of both guns have 1-in-16 twist instead of the more common 1-in-10 twist. I suspect this may make it easier to avoid leading, but that's just a guess. The factory HiPower barrel had the standard 1-in-10 twist.

[milprileb]

Sir, I was loading 3.3 gr of BE on these 120 gr TC Lee bullets sized .357 and using BAC lube (its semi soft but not carnuba hard). These lead but are very accurate.

My bullets are water quenched. I am going to try air cooled on next cast.

I am running out of varibles to test and fix this situation. I have not cast pure WW and lino so I may give that a try

I have ordered .358 sizing die ... got to explore all options as this leading is very distracting

[MtGun44]

The answer IS out there. Keep plugging at it.

Bill

[biscot]

My load is also 3.3 gr Bullseye, and it shoots plenty accurate.
I never had much luck trying to load .358 boolits - too much case bulging, especially with the TC boolits which I had to load fairly short to get them to chamber. Other guys on the forum seem to do it, though.
It seems like every 9mm pistol is its own animal.
Good luck with your quest - I know it can be frustrating.

[milprileb]

Question: Should I seat these TC 120 gr bullets long as possible ? I am wondering if I got a long chamber in this pistol and maybe my bullets are jumping into the barrel.

[Shiloh]

I have finally achieved success with a 9mm Lee 125 gr. RN sized at .358.
5.6 gr. AA#5 cycles, lock the slide after the last round.
Good enough for me.

Shiloh

[biscot]

I'm no expert but I've been working with the thought that yes, you want to minimize the jump to the barrel. My personal thinking is to load them as long as possible, so they will still chamber and feed without fail, and of course without exposing the lube groove, and without exceeding SAAMI spec (1.169"). I think with the TC boolit you're not going to come close to the max OAL anyway. Lots of folks here use that boolit. I'd be curious what OAL people use and how they arrived at that....
My HiPower won't chamber the boolit unless the shoulder is all the way back to the case mouth, so it makes a pretty short round. My 1911 likes them as long as possible. Go figure.

[geargnasher]

Nobody has mentioned that the 9mm runs at about double the pressure of the 45 ACP. If I had a bunch of water dropped WW already cast and lubed, I'd try a slower powder than Bullseye. Maybe that would be a better fit than the sharp "kick in the pants" that Bullseye produces.

This is THE biggest issue. Nobody has really hit on the point that PEAK PRESSURE AND PRESSURE CURVE HAVE TO BE BALANCED TO THE ALLOY. It's hard to achieve obturation with light charges of really fast powders and really hard boolits. It's a losing combination in just about everything.

Milprileb, you seem to have heard that the 9mm likes hard boolits, and it does, BUT DON'T TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT. The 9mm likes hard boolits, like 18-22 bhn and with some tin in there, with hot charges of Blue Dot or Longshot, pushing maximum pressure and velocity. If you want plinkers, use a medium pistol powder and a medium alloy, like air-cooled wheel weights, somewhere around 11-15 bhn if you want to put a number to it. You might get by with Bullseye also with these boolits, but keep the pressure around starting levels or you might get skidding/blowby leading.


Lots of folks seem to have issues with cast bullet in the 9mm Luger. I don't claim to be an expert, but have shot many thousands with no problems and with no more difficulty than the 45 ACP. I won't tell you what you should do, but I will tell you what I do.

1. The bullets are 120 grain plain base SWCs from an NEI mold.
2. The alloy is ACWW
3. The powder is AA5 which was designed for the 9mm round. It is a hair slower than Unique, and Unique works very well also.
4. I keep the velocity to between 1K and 1.1K fps. These loads will cycle every pistol I have. tried including a Luger.
5. Accuracy has been on par with standard ball ammo in all pistols.
6. I size the bullets .357 or .358. I have not found much difference, if any, between the two.
7. I use a properly adjust taper crimp.

I don't pretend to have great knowledge on the subject, just have found an approach that seems to work for me. I have fired this stuff in;

1. 1913 DWM Luger
2. Walter P-38
3. Two Browning High Powers
4. Beretta 92
5. Smith and Wesson 59
6. Sig P239

P.S.... I really don't like water dropped bullets..really don't.

See, perfect example of a balanced load. Pressure, alloy, powder, boolit fit, all there where they should be for the power level of the load and the guns in which it's fired. No surprise it works. Now switch to a hot load of Blue Dot to throw off the balance, and it might lead a bit and open up the groups some.


rototerrier,

there is a descrition of pairing your hardness to your pressures in teh Lee Handloading manual. The concept has to do with strength of the alloy (mechanics of materials plays in to this if you are into engineering topics).
Richard and John Lee developed a lot of fancy numbers for a simple concept, and simple to apply concept that works. I don't subscribe to it directly, but it works for many. My concept of pressure/alloy is different, more simplistic (I think in light, medium, and maximum for pressure/velocity groups), and also more complex because I figure rate of pressure build into the equation. Still it's pretty simple, fast powders for light boolits and light loads with soft boolits, heavy boolits/hot loads need slower powders and usually tougher alloys.

I think there are a few threads about that here on the forum. Several ways to calculate the model so a bit of reading might be in order.

You also might find that for your purposes the hardness does not make as big a difference as fit and lube. That's exactly why I don't go harping the Lee formula to everyone. As long as you're in the ballpark with alloy, and it's a big ballpark, is usually works pretty well and failures are usually due to other factors.

It is fun calculating and testing though.


The answer IS out there. Keep plugging at it.

Bill

It IS out there.

I also didn't see any reference to pulled boolit dimensions, or the amount of time the TC boolits were aged before loading. Just because they're being run through a .357" sizer DOES NOT mean they are .357". What did they measure before sizing? They could be undersized to begin with and the RN boolits could be dropping the right size for the gun.

Also, how old were the TC boolits before loading? Had you given them a few days to reach hardness maturity? How about the RN boolits? Are they they same actual size as the TC boolits, same hardness, same distance from the lands when loaded? Finding the difference is much easier when you have one KNOWN GOOD combination, that way you can draw comparisons.

Again, water-quenching WW alloy and pushing it with BE, especially LOW charges of it, is a recipe for disaster. You'd have better luck going the other way, working UP the charge until you get to the top of the load data or see high pressure signs. It takes a lot of pressure to make hard alloy seal. Of course the fast powder might skid the boolit and cause trailing-edge leading if loaded hot enough, but might also make the suckers seal.

So check and double-check size of the TC boolit (preferably a pulled boolit) with the RN, compare seating depth, and hardness or exact times between casting/sizing/loading/shooting between the successful RN and the unsuccesssful TC boolits, you'll figger it out.

Gear

[biscot]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a newcomer to this game, but I'm having trouble understanding why obturation would be an issue if the boolit is sized larger than the barrel? Isn't it going to seal the barrel just by virtue of being oversized? Or am I missing something here?

[R.M.]

There's one aspect of obturation that we don't hear about often, that it compresses the lube grooves, forcing lube to pump itself out against the bore.

[geargnasher]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a newcomer to this game, but I'm having trouble understanding why obturation would be an issue if the boolit is sized larger than the barrel? Isn't it going to seal the barrel just by virtue of being oversized? Or am I missing something here?

I know it seems counter-intuitive, if the boolit is bigger than the groove, by even a smidgen, it should seal, no matter the hardness, right? Well, not always. In fact, not even usually at my house. I think the reason has to do with the flexibility of the alloy, not just "hardness". Alloys with a percent or two of tin in them always seem to lead less in my guns than really hard, low-tin alloys. Tin binds with antimony to form an intermetallic compound called Sb/Sn, which behaves like a single elemental metal and is much more flexible and malleable than tin or antimony alone.

What does this mean? It means that, regardless of hardness, a flexible, springy, malleable alloy will conform to barrel imperfections, variances in diameter and land width, pits, machine marks, etc. creating a better seal. If the alloy is too hard for the pressure, it will take the shape of the rifling it first encounters, and then the shape of the MINOR points of the barrel on it's trip through. At the MAJOR dimensions it will leak, and leaks cause gas blowby, cutting of the boolit, atomization of the cut lead, and this "dust" gets blown ahead of the boolit and physically ironed on the bore, causing the lead buildup we see. Additional lead builds up by abrasion adhesion/transfer and continued blowby. A springier boolit can adjust to the barrel variances on it's trip, and keep the seal. A softer boolit that isn't very springy can do the same as long as the pressure is kept high enough the whole way through the barrel to keep it mashed into the grooves tightly.

Trying to keep this basic and addressed to Milprileb's issues, I think his alloy is too hard for the powder and pressure he's using, and he's losing the seal somewhere, in fact the boolit probably isn't EVER getting a chance to seal, even if it's big enough. It might be solved by adding some tin and continuing to water quench. It might more easily be solved by just air-cooling the alloy he has and matching it with a medium powder like Unique. It might also be solved by doing nothing other than using a stiff charge of Blue Dot with the hard boolits he already has. All have the same effect of aiding the seal. If I had his gun and his mould I would do a few simple tests to verify what's in order and what isn't, then do some shooting, trying a known alloy and some powders that SHOULD work with it, and find out what DOES work.

Gear

[milprileb]

Gear, My 120 TC bullets are sized .357. I seat them and crimp. I pulled with Kinetic puller...did this on six loaded rounds (no primers in case) and measured the dia. of bullets and they are still .357. I got the 9mm case opened up to the point I can manually seat the bullet into the case with my thumb. So that leads me to believe there is no swaging of bullets to smaller size going on. My alloy is not pure WW as it was recommended I use some lead. I got 1.5# of pure lead and 8.5 # of WW in the alloy. I water quenched the bullets, sized them 3 days later and loaded 5 days after casting.

Right now I see the following options not done to date:
a. Re cast using same alloy and air cool the bullets and try them
b. Re cast using WW and air cool
c. Move to another powder: I have Unique for starters to use on A&B above
d. Play with seating depth of above bullets
e. Move from BAC lube to 2500 lube

Did I miss something ?

[biscot]

You're right, it does seem counter-intuitive, but your explanation makes sense.
I've never even tried air-cooled WW, just going on the assumption that water dropping would be better. I'm going to try air-cooling and see how it works for me.

[milprileb]

I sure hope you guys will hang with me till I get thru this drama. I need experienced hands
badly !!

[milprileb]

I have PB powder: is that slower than BE ?

[biscot]

FWIW, here's a link to a powder burn chart (one of several I've seen, each a little different).
It shows BE at #13 on the list, PB at #23 (slower).

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

[milprileb]

Thank you for that burn chart.

Seems folks have had good results with AA5 (41 burn chart) and Blue Dot (49 burn chart).

I don't have these but I do have PB at 23, 800X at 38 and Unique at 31.

I am thinking that with 800X on hand, I may try that straight away and see what happens. I assume 800X at 38 being close enough to AA5 at 41 will be close enough to see if this helps, if not then ramp up to Blue Dot at 40.

If my logic is right, 800 X is not a bad start to get cracking onto?

[HeavyMetal]

I just sat here and read all four pages of this thread.

In all of this I never saw anyone ask the OP what mold design he was using: tumble lube or conventional lube groove.

This can make a difference particularly in the 9mm!

So Milprileb which lube system is cut into your mold?

I'll make no suggestion until I see a reply.

[milprileb]

Sir, I have the standard lube design, not the Tumble Lube design mold. I use a Lyman 450 sizer and am using BAC stick lube, and .357 sizer (was using .356 and it leaded plus accuracy was off).

I thank you for taking the time to read all 4 pages and give consideration to the issues I am blinking on.

[HeavyMetal]

I'm going to suggest one or two "different" ideas here.

First lets make only one change at a time until we decide if the change has helped, hindered or done nothing. You will then return to the "base" load for the next change.

Second (your gonna like this one!) find yourself an empty styrofoam egg carton and sharpen up an old case so that it cuts a nice clean "disc" of styrofoam out of the top of the egg carton.

A 38, 357 , 38 super, 9mm the case doesn't matter as long as it's in the correct boolit diameter range but I think you'll find the 357 case will give you something to hang onto.

I will also suggest that you give the barrel a very good cleaning just in case you hadn't all ready thought of that.

Cut a dozen or so discs and the proceed to load you TC boolit as you have been with the only change being the stryofoam disc seated under the boolit.

Insert the disc in the case by hand and then use the seating action of the boolit to seat it the rest of the way in the case. This will leave you with the styrofom plug seated against the base of the boolit.

What we are trying to accomplish is seperating the "flame front" of the powder charge from the base of the boolit.

So If these rounds are fired and the leading continues you've narrowed it down to lube, alloy or fit. You can then play with each of these areas until you find the problem.

If the leading goes away then you need to switch to a slower powder with this boolit design.

Keep us posted.

[geargnasher]

Let's also look at what ISN'T the problem. BAC is more than good enough here. The alloy is fine, and the hardness is fine, IF it is balanced for the pressure. I've had troubles with TC designed boolits in .40 S&W and .45ACP, but nothing I could ever pin on the design exactly, so I'm going to assume the TC boolit is failing here for a different reason than design, although it might be giving problems due to different seating depth, throat seal, or something like that compared to the RN boolit.

The Styrofoam is an interesting thing and may be worth trying, but it's also a pressure-raiser with fast powders, so one has to be careful and drop back on the powder charge.

I maintain that the easiest thing to do, knowing what powders are on hand now, is to switch to 800X and do a full workup in quarter-grain increments, lots of ten, until the gamut of starting to max is run, with cleanings in between each lot. There will be failure points and success points along the way, the important thing is to observe the trends.

The harder boolits, case tension, and lube aren't problems as far as I can see, unless the fast powder is a "must", at which point I'd strongly suggest a softer boolit. Do whatever it takes to achieve a balance in this load, it looks to me that the mechanics and tooling are in fine order, and the gun has already proven it can shoot lead with no problems, so at least we can fairly eliminate those things.

Gear

[HeavyMetal]

Gear:
When I proposed the styrofoam "gasket" it was my understanding that the OP was using 3.3 grains Bullseye as his load.

This is a pretty light weight powder charge for Bullseye in the 9mm as every manual I have starts at about 4.3 and goes up from there into the 5's.

I do realise that the styrofoam "wafer" will decrease the air space between boolit base and the top of the powder charge but at 3.3 grains I suspect it will only bring the pressure level up to normal 9mm levels.

I will suggest that he go to WW case's which should give him a case with the most volume available which should reduce any possibility of creating an overload with this charge level of Bullseye.

Having said that I will acknowledge that "things" happen and the OP should exercise due caution by firing these as single shots until he's had a chance to examine fired rounds for signs of pressure and I don't mean "reading" primers!

Yes I would have left Bullseye long ago if I were the OP ( as I did in my own 9mm guns) but as I understand the OP's request he wants to cure this problem with this load.

To that end I firmly believe the styrofoam trick is the way to at least determine which fork in the road he takes next.

If I lived down the street from this guy this is what I would do without hesitation.

[geargnasher]

HM, I was pointing that out because you didn't specify what ballpark powder charge to which he should be adding this, or mention it can raise pressures a bit, and you can't assume he'll know. Not criticizing your idea or your post, just adding something to it that I thought should be mentioned from a safety perspective. We both know he could probably add the styro wad to four grains of BE and still be below starting-load threshold pressure, but one should still be careful with these tiny cases and fast powders, pressures can spike suddenly with a small change.

Gear

[HeavyMetal]

Gear:
I absolutely agree with you! All loading, no matter the case size, must be handled with both care and thought!

If I gave you the impression I thought you were flaming me please forgive me as that was not the intent of my last post.

I'd mentioned in my first post that I had taken the time to read all four pages of posts before I made the styrofoam suggestion.

I sometimes forget that not everyone will do that and should have reaffirmed the OP's current charge of Bullseye ( 3.3grains) so that anybody who happened to read the last entry or two would not attempt to "Plug and Play" with the styrofoam idea.

Point taken and, hopefully, passed on.

[milprileb]

Gents,

I am off BE. However this leading thing began at 3.8 gr and I went down to 3.3 as a last resort and in my mind was going no further. I know I had leading at 4.1 and 4.2 gr of BE with my RN 125gr loads and I thought the 120gr bullets could not sustain that kind of charge so I pulled down to 3.8 grs. The issue of BE not being optimum for this caliber/ bullet is quite clear thanks to notes posted by all of you.

I am starting anew with 800X which may (I hope may) be a less fast powder and allow me to find a loading that will push these .357 sized 120gr TC bullets w/o leading.

I am not trying to find soft loads in any of this. I want a good shooting accurate cast bullet load. The purpose of my 9mm 1911 pistol is as a training weapon for the first two hours of my usual 4 hour shooting of 1911 pistol at the range. I want to warm up with 9mm and then move up to 45acp. I am having no bad news on 45acp loads whatsoever. If I can find the right 9mm loading that is accurate and does not lead, then that will be ideal.

I started with BE as I had no issues with it for 45acp, no did PB or WW231 ever fail to provide great 45acp loads. However, its apparent my entire tests have been flawed by the poor choice of BE for 9mm. Now that I know that, I will re start again.

Whether my incoming set of .358 dies makes any difference with 120 gr TC bullets or not, I am not waiting to get these dies. I will plow ahead with 800X and re start tests of these bullets.

This has been a real eye opener !!!

[Jailer]

I've been following this thread since the beginning. I've been having mediocre results with 9mm in a couple different guns. The only thing that got me going in the right direction was switching powders to power pistol. I'm now getting no leading in my PF9 and very light "streaking" in my Lone Wolf 40/9 conversion barrel.

I've recently tried my 26 with the factory barrel and this same load and have had good results but it's only been 20 rounds through it so far. More testing is needed to see if it will work without significant leading in the 26.

I tried BE, TG, and 231 before I tried power pistol. Like I said, I'm no expert just some food for thought on what has worked for me so far.

[HeavyMetal]

If your going to go to a slower powder go directly to Bluedot and do not pass go!

This the best choice I have found in all the years I have been loading for the 9mm.

It works very well with the 125 grain RNL Lee boolit you originally listed. I am not sure about the 120 TC as I have never used that mold design.

800X has the same problem that Bullseye had for me: it's filthy (!), in just about everything but my 3/4 ounce 12 gauge loads and my HBWC 38 wadcutter loads for my M52 Smith.

Try it if you have some but in the end please try WW SuperTarget in the 45 auto and Bluedot in the 9mm You'll be amazed!

[geargnasher]

+1 on the BD, Heavy Metal. I only recommended the 800X because he had some on hand and it's in the burn rate ballpark. I agree it's filthy stuff, so is 700X, and it doesn't seem to get better no matter how much the operating pressure is. Same reason I don't use much 2400 or Unique. Filthy. The "New" Unique is much better, but I quit using it when my girlfriend (now the Mrs.) wouldn't get near me because I "Smelled like a skunk and looked like a chimney sweep" after an IDPA match.

BD is my powder of choice for top-end .40 S&W ammo with the Lee 175 TC, Carnauba Red lube, and water-quenched wheel weights.

Gear

[Jailer]

One of our SO's at today's match suggested WST for 45. He shoots over 30K rounds a year and swears by the stuff.

I'm going to have to give BD a try and see how that works out. Thanks.

[geargnasher]

One of our SO's at today's match suggested WST for 45. He shoots over 30K rounds a year and swears by the stuff.

I'm going to have to give BD a try and see how that works out. Thanks.

BD in the .45ACP probably a poor choice, if that's what you meant, but fine for your 40/9mm barrels. .45ACP works very well with a large variety of powders and alloys, it's just one of those easy calibers, usually because of the softer brass and lower pressures.

Gear

[Jailer]

Opps, I meant BD for the 9mm. Guess sometimes what's in my head doesn't always make it to the keyboard. :veryconfu

[rototerrier]

Here's my .358 ACWW 125 RNs

Got em all ready. Going to let them set for a couple days and give them a shot...literally.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33969&stc=1&d=1310332631

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33970&stc=1&d=1310332631

[casterofboolits]

If your going to go to a slower powder go directly to Bluedot and do not pass go!

This the best choice I have found in all the years I have been loading for the 9mm.

It works very well with the 125 grain RNL Lee boolit you originally listed. I am not sure about the 120 TC as I have never used that mold design.

800X has the same problem that Bullseye had for me: it's filthy (!), in just about everything but my 3/4 ounce 12 gauge loads and my HBWC 38 wadcutter loads for my M52 Smith.

Try it if you have some but in the end please try WW SuperTarget in the 45 auto and Bluedot in the 9mm You'll be amazed!

+2 on the BlueDot. Has worked for me since the mid 80's.[smilie=s:

[MtGun44]

Those boolits are not being fully sized, so portions of the boolit bearing section are under
the .358 diameter. If you really need .358 to seal, these may well not do it.

Beagle the mold a hair and try again for a nice ring of sizing marks all the way around and
for the full length of the bearing surface.

BUT - try what you have, they may work. If not, the above is the next step. Your mold
is casting about .3575 or so with that alloy and temperature.

Bill

[rototerrier]

I was concerned about that myself. none are smaller than 357 and most of them appear to have been sized. So I have a mix of 357-358 which, for me, "should" do the trick. I think my biggest issue has been hardness so this is just a test.

If it doesn't work out I will hit the mold again and see if I can't get them a little larger.

These were all cast at exactly 700 degrees. I maintained a pretty consistent temp all the way through.

I know for sure that a 357 totally smothered in JPWX will not lead. I am really wanting to get away from tumble lubing though. I really prefer this cleaner method.

[Doby45]

Yhea, one single layer of taper on one side of the mold blocks should get you perfect.

[rototerrier]

Yhea, one single layer of taper on one side of the mold blocks should get you perfect.

You're right :) It actually took 2 pieces to get it perfect. I tried one and only got minor results. Went with 2 and cast up about a hundred and they all sized up consistent. I am going to load and test them first since I know they are now perfect!!

Thanks for the suggestion. This was the first time doing it. Wasn't much to it and solved the problem real fast.

[geargnasher]

Rototerrier, I had the same first impression as Bill. Inconsistent pressure on the mould handles, or lack of proper lube film on the alignment points will make the Lee moulds bind just a tiny bit and give you inconsistent diameters. Mould temperature affects boolit diameter as much as alloy temperature, maybe more depending on how much antimony is in the alloy.

Also, check your lube-sizer alignment, looks like the ram is hitting a bit off center, causing the boolits to get a crooked start in the die. This is very common with Lyman 450-4500 sizers, if they aren't off-center from the factory, the ram support quickly "wallers" out and the force of the linkage pushes the top punch to the front, forcing the boolits to get a crooked start and moving more metal on one side than the other.

Gear

[milprileb]

Could someone break the code and tell me how Roto shimmed that mold to drop larger?
How does this shim stay in place?

[Dannix]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=117331&highlight=beagling
Search the forum for beagling, but the above thread is probable the best place to start.

[milprileb]

Thats why I asked, I understand the concept but what to use and how it stays in place
is not clear

[Sapper771]

I recommend WSF (Winchester Super Field). I have had good luck using W231 for most of my cast loads, but WSF seems to do better.

I have been playing with the 9mm and 38 spl Lyman M dies. The 38 spl M die is the right diameter, but it is too long. The 9mm M die is the right length, but its diameter is too small. What I have been doing is belling the case mouth with the 9mm M die and expanding the case with the 38spl M die. Pulled boolits are showing only minor amounts of swaging. This is the best combo I have found so far.

Boolit is Lee 120gr TC cast from AC WW, sized to 0.358", and lubed with BAC. Seated to 1.100" over 4.6gr WSF. Almost zero leading, and prints 2.5" groups at 23 yards from a Glock 17 with Lone Wolf barrel.

[milprileb]

Sapper , I am using BAC and 800X is lesser burn rate than your powder so I think I am in the ball park of your loading and I seat to same OAL. I am considering the M Die and got .358 sizing dies on order.

I ran some tests with 1.100 OAL, BAC Lube , and 4.5, 4.8 and 5.0 gr of IMR 800X pushing the Lee 120TC bullet yesterday. I had trace leading at 4.5 gr, lesser at 4.8 and lesser at 5.0. The last load was more accurate as well. I am testing out 5.1 gr next and then will decide what to do next. When I say trace of lead, its not at chamber or muzzle, it faint in grooves of barrel and comes out with two passes of a brush. So the amount of leading is decreasing since I sized up to .357 (forum members idea), changed to BAC (members again wisdom) and changed to a slower burning powder ( members again).

So I am making some progress but I certainly won't exclude I got need some Blue Dot and need to try air cooled vs my water quenched bullets to find the bottom line that tells me its all under control or I got to open up my mold and size to .358.

It is not an exaggeration: the bloody books do not help much on this problem and I would be hopelessly mired in leading if this forums members had not chose to pause and help out.
I hope to repay this somehow.

[Dannix]

Thats why I asked, I understand the concept but what to use and how it stays in place
is not clear
Did you read the link :?:

[MtGun44]

It is tape, it sticks.

Bill

[Sapper771]

Sounds like you are getting close. Keep at it. In my limited experience, I have had better luck using the mid to slower burning powders. Been eyeballing bullseye, after reading about so many people recommending it, just havent started playing with it yet. W231 use to be my go to powder for commercial cast bullets, but it leads the barrel quite a bit when I put it under my cast boolits.

The M dies work pretty good, but it would be better if you could get one custom made. A 38spl diameter plug with the length of the 9mm plug would be great. I am looking into getting one made, just need to find someone that would be willing to do it .

[geargnasher]

Here's another Beagling link, scroll down to Mr. Goins' article: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_4-0_ModifyCastBullets.htm

IIRC it's also on Castpics dot net in the members articles section.

I think you may be getting close to the limit of what your gun will reliably chamber, you might measure the inside of the case mouth of a cartridge fired in your gun and see how much room you have. Keep up the good work, you see how slower powder works better with hard boolits once you start to build enough pressure with the powder. That's why I recommended the full workup with the 800x you had on hand, it will tell you a lot about accuracy and leading. Keep going. The trailing-edge leading is sometimes a result of gas-cutting early on, as the boolit is being engraved. You might try HM's trick of the foam disc, if early gas-cutting is the issue, the foam will cure it, indicating a possible COAL adjustment is needed or maybe the throat doesn't like the TC design.

Gear

[Three44s]

OP!

The last thing I'd do is to melt down your big pile of lubed and sized slugs ........... just sit on them ... if you don't find a fix for a month or some years .... what's the hurt? On the off chance you can solve this mystery someday .... hand on to them till it hurts. I'll bet green backs to donuts that you won't blindly cast a whole big pasal of boolits again for a while ...... LOL!

NOW .... I TOO have read this thread from it's onset .......... WOW!! Your head must be spinning by now ............ LOL!!

You can try your 800X but I am no fan of it ........ it'll measure like road gravel ..........

I have a 9mm as well and I'll add to that insight in moment but sticking to powders for just one more moment: I would try HS-6, Unique and then WSF with a brand new 9mm and the first two in revolver loads that are par excellent boolit launchers!

***********************************

I would drop your taper crimp or at the minimum reduce it to the point of removing your bell to allow easy chambering but no more.

I would absolutely try Lee Liquid Alox over the top of your already lubed boolits ........

Even after you solve your current leading issue, I would CLEAN and then polish your bore with an abrasive bore cleaner of either USP or JB bore paste. Follow up with Tetra gun and then dry patch it till dry or better still get yourself some CorrosionX in place of the Tetra gun. You may have some leading for some time until you get your bore broken in but keep the above cleaning up until you get some postiive results. This has worked stand alone on a lot of guns for me (yes, my "nine" liked it as well)

The alloy and quench or not and sizing are really covered in the five preceeding pages .... so I plowed some new ground for you to contemplate ........... best of luck!

Follow safety rules and try the disc wad trick .... I've had good luck in some revolver applications with similar materials but it's a bunch of fiddling for plinkers .... it will defeat what you are trying to do in the first place .... for diagnostics it's fine if you keep it safe.

DONT worry ........... we are not going anywhere!

You will get this wipped ........... and you'll appreciate your journey all the more for it .........

We all have our share of bumps and scrapes for our efforts!!

A non reloading thought: Have you considered a .22 conversion of one of your 1911's???

Three 44s

[milprileb]

You can try your 800X but I am no fan of it ........ it'll measure like road gravel

The above is truth beyond a shadow of a doubt. My Ohaus measure, Lee Pro with adj bar and my Dillon measure throw charges all over the map with this powder. I had to drag my late fathers little Pacific bushing style pistol measure out last night to toss 5.1 gr of 800 x consistently. I thought that measure was extinct in any usefullness but now I understand why the old man had it. My RCBS combo digital NASA measure and scale tosses accurate loads with 800 X but clearly those are large flakes to trickle !!!

I think what you guys are leading me up to is Bumping the bullets to seal in the bore.

I am not melting this 1400 cast and lubed bullets yet but you can be sure this is the last Banzai bullet cast for 9mm till I sort this situation out !!!

Have I considered 22 conv unit for 1911 ? I have tried since 1974 to get my Colt conv. unit to not lead itself to death (that floating chamber leads up badly) and to shoot decent groups. My Colt factory made ACE in 22LR has same issues. Its a old system for 22LR and was the only dog in town for a long time if one wanted to shoot a cheap round on a 1911 platform.

I got the 9mm 1911 platform because with cast bullets, 1.7 cents a primer costs buying in bulk Tula primers, and at best 1 cent a shot for powder for 9mm, and a
bin of about 5K of free brass: 3 cents max per shot for 9mm made for a better warm up training round on 1911 platform than 22 Long Rifle at 4 cents a shot.

Thus the trek for cast bullet loads for 9mm began and these pages track the drama so far. While I think I am near the end of this Odyssey, it ain't over till it's over.

I think the Taurus 1911 in 9mm is a better solution for training purposes than my Colt conv unit or Ace. Granted, better 22LR units now exist like Kimber. I got the Taurus new in the box for $450 and it has the potential to shoot cast bullets accurately and give me a more robust training platform. I shoot 9mm first for a few hundred rounds and then finish up the day with 200 rds minimum of 45 acp. The 9mm warm up gets me back into the groove and snaps up my skill sets so I am more tuned in and better overall when 45acp time comes.

Volume shooting dictates casting. I can shoot more for less $. Shooting less is as most here agree is not the solution. Anyway, at age 63 there is a finite window of time I have left to shoot and I want to max that to the max.

My 9mm situation is still a flat tire but its not a permanent situation any more.

[rintinglen]

What we too often fail to realize, is that there is "a finite window of time left" for all of us, regardless of age. "Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do today" is still very good advice.

[milprileb]

We have all the time there is..... only thing is we don't control the clock.

[geargnasher]

Milprileb, there really is nothing wrong with your hard boolits for 9mm. Don't melt them down just yet. If it were .38 special I'd tell you different, but you can make them work just fine here, and harder boolits withstand the rigors of being crammed in a tough 9mm case, being fed through and auto, and being fired through a throat made for copper jackets better than soft boolits most of the time. Just use ENOUGH slow powder make them into putty, the kind of putty that will seal (obturate) the bore from case to muzzle.

If you fix the gas leaks, you will fix the leading. If you were to do it my way, you'd fix the leading and then tweak things for best accuracy. But you might not need or want to do it that way: Keep in mind that not all leading is bad, and in fact many "most" accurate loads leave a wash, or maybe a streak or two, or maybe even some trailing edge "hairs". It all depends on the gun, but in general the deposits, if any, need to be consistent from the second shot through the two-hundredth. If it doesn't turn your bore into a sewer pipe of ironed-on, rock-hard fouling made of layer after layer of powder/lube/lead in fifty shots, then don't worry too much about it if you're getting the performance and accuracy you desire.

Gear

[milprileb]

Gear,

I may be there already but t his last test of 5.1 gr 800x will seal the fate.
If so, it will give me reason to use the 3 pounds of this up (inherited off late fathers
loading bench) and as stated , its is miserable to try to meter for loads. The Blue
Dot powder once I find some is going to get a work out pronto.

My buddy tested my 1.5# lead to 8.5# of WW alloy which (about page 1) was recommended I try a alloy as I was pouring pure WW bullets. This test of the alloy showed the bullets were
BNH 22. These are water quenched bullets. These WW on hand must be some very hard metal as I would have thought them to be far softer.

I mention this as these 120TC bullets I have now are not soft as I thought. Probably would be softer had they air cooled.

Anyhow, will see how the test goes today on leading. I have not given up on the notion the sizing needs to be .358 instead of .357 as bullets are sized now. I slugged barrel from muzzle to chamber, and then ran a slug from chamber up an inch and back. Sent these off to my lab buddy to confirm with his test equipment the diameter he reads on them. I want a second opinion on readings. My 16 buck Harbor Freight calipers are not that precise time after time for confirmed readings. I think my bullets are .3755 and the bore is .357.

Work in progress continues but I do feel that I have turned a corner with all the help from members. There are dimensions of casting / reloading revealed that I was blissfully ignorant of and its opened my eyes.

[milprileb]

I won't say Touch Down but certainly a First Down.

I got no leading after 100 rds today. Using the slower burning 800 X
did the trick. It meters badly and was a stop gap solution till I find Blue Dot.

However, my alloy, Lee 120gr TC bullets BAC lubed (and Lee Alox lubed on top of BAC) sized .357, and 5.1 gr of IMR 800 X shot accurately and with zero leading.

I will seek Blue Dot but I got success finally. Thanks to all for the help, a very big thanks to the team of Witch Doctors who stayed with this ailing patient for 6 pages !

[Bullwolf]

I won't say Touch Down but certainly a First Down.

I got no leading after 100 rds today. Using the slower burning 800 X
did the trick. It meters badly and was a stop gap solution till I find Blue Dot.

However, my alloy, Lee 120gr TC bullets BAC lubed (and Lee Alox lubed on top of BAC) sized .357, and 5.1 gr of IMR 800 X shot accurately and with zero leading.

I will seek Blue Dot but I got success finally. Thanks to all for the help, a very big thanks to the team of Witch Doctors who stayed with this ailing patient for 6 pages !

Glad to hear you beat the leading problems in your 9mm milprileb!

Regarding your Colt 22 Ace conversion kit...

I have had a couple of them over the years as well, and the floating chamber can be somewhat finicky.

I have had the best results using CCI Mini Mag 22 LR ammunition, along with a good cleaning, and lubrication of the floating chamber.
http://c1198852.r52.cf0.rackcdn.com/2006558.jpg
Inexpensive 22LR rounds will lead up the floating chamber pretty quickly. The thicker copper CCI Mini Mag, and CCI Stinger ammunition seemed to work the best for me, and did not lead the floating chamber in my Colt Ace 22LR conversions.

If you do a Google search for CCI Mini Mag and Colt Ace 22 conversion kits, you will find quite a few other people with similar experiences. Most of them also recommend using the CCI Mini Mag ammo.

Here is a link with some interesting history about the Colt Ace 22LR conversions, along with some images.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/colt_ace.htm

http://picturearchive.auctionarms.com/1912728/10159170/fbdd8f50aee5f52bb0047eb05a97b436.jpg
http://picturearchive.auctionarms.com/1912728/10159170/5f264449b82fb6ada261e6471ca20ef0.jpg


- Bullwolf

[milprileb]

Bullwolf,

I have the conv. unit and also a factory ACE 1911 in 22LR. Been shooting both since 1974 with the usual distracting leading issues. In 2008, I lubed the infamous floating chamber with Militech grease only cause I was greasing up a Garand rifle and thought: what the heck, try it.

I can go 3 boxes of 22LR n ow before leading seizes that floating chamber. Before, I could barely go to 70 rounds , often had issues at 50 rds.

Don't know why this lube does better when others just shot out and did zilch. However, I mention this only as a FYI note to anyone who may want to try this band aid solution.

[casterofboolits]

CLP Breakfree worked great in four Ace conversions. Mine and three friends. We were getting into 800 to 900 rounds before needing cleaning. We were using copper plated .22 LR we paid $4.99 brick for. Yes, it was a few years ago! :bigsmyl2:

[milprileb]

Amazing and I am happy someone has luck with this type of 1911 unit. All lube I ever tried from Dri slide, CLP, LSA, ... everything just shot out and results were just sad.

Its better with Militech grease but certainly nothing like your results. This lackluster floating chamber and half good accuracy drove me to buying a 9mm 1911 for training purposes and right now, as of today , my Taurus PT1911 in 9mm has shot 2750 rounds flawlessly from out of the box. Not too shabby for a all steel $450 pistol ! Now that I got my cast bullets to not lead and shooting cast bullets accurately, I am quite pleased.

[rototerrier]

milprileb, did you get leading with the original powder, allow, size combo when you double lubed? I had discovered a while back that enouch alox would cure about anything.

I also tried the JPWX, and enough of that also cured leading. But, I shoot indoors and completely coating the boolits just makes way too much smoke. If I were shooting out doors, my issues would have long been solved by simply super coating the boolits and moving on.

I have 30 rounds loaded up to try out today myself.

All at 358 but 15 with win231 and another 15 with unique. Going to see how the slower burning unique works out for me.

[milprileb]

rototerrier,

Way back when I started this trek, I double lubled (stick and LLA) and while there was smoke (I shoot outdoor range), there was leading in this 1911 pistol. I was using BE powder and sizing to .356 and using pure WW alloy water quenched. I tried a softer allow water quenched , same BE loads sized .356 and double lubed and still got leading. Increased charge of BE and decreased charge of BE and got leading. Higher charges BE crudded bore badly.

So the issue of .356 sizing was suspect. I got .357 size dies and accuracy increased but all charges (same 2x lube) still leaded bore.

It was only when I tried the recommended slower burning powder solution that leading diminished and finally (at 5.1 gr level) stopped altogether.

Thus: double lube was not a common solution to any attempts to solve leading issues. That my winning solution right now uses a double lube bullet with slower powder is just fine. I will test just single lube with LLA and single lube with stick lube later on with slower powder and see if I need to continue 2x lubing. If I do, then so be it.

Every situation is different : this barrel may be the sole X factor in the whole process and it wants loads far far different than my Hi Power does. The Hi Power shoots anything with no leading.

So if my barrel in 1911 pistol wants 2x lube and results are what happened yesterday with 100 test fired loads: I am good with it. It takes Zero Effort to LLA lube already stick lubed/sized bullets. Shake and pour and dry.

I will say this: If I find 2x lube is an absolute mandatory solution, I will leap onto the JPX Recluse tumble lube recipe and go that route as its said to be less sticky and dries quickly. I don't shy away from that solution and have it in mind if 2x lube has to happen.

I still will try .358 sized bullets in this barrel and if that is better, then continue with slow burning powders and whatever lube solution that works.

In closing: Yes I did 2x lube and it may or may not be necessary. However considering all the drama up till yesterday, the test loads were 2x lubed and my results were awesome and I had a First Down ! If I do nothing ever but duplicate yesterday: I will be well served on accuracy at the range and not suffer leading to clean / chase after.

[milprileb]

Had not I been on this board, I would have never thought of changing powders ! I would have just sold off the pistol and been defeated in detail.

[rototerrier]

What's really cool about the JPX is that, due to thickness and quick dry time, you can tumble lube and completely fill the lube grooves.

Using a plastic container and a hairdryer and only lubing no more than about 100 at a time....I apply the lube and heat boolits and lube to a nice warm temp. Tumble.

Add a little more and reheat.

Once I have enough lube in there where it looks like it should fill all the lube grooves, I keep applying a little heat here and there to re-liquify the lube on the boolits and sides of the bowl.

I repeat this process over and over until the lube grooves are completely filled.

I thought this was a neat trick and certainly ensures I had plenty of lube. What's also cool about this is that you don't get a huge buildup on the rest of the boolit like you might think. The groove just catches it and as long as you don't melt the existing lube out of the groove on subsequent reheats, it just keeps layering up.

[rototerrier]

Figured I would share :)

They come out a little beat up from all the tumbling, but they are certainly well lubed!!

[milprileb]

That technique takes TL of bullet to a new level from shallow veneer to thoroughly LUBED !

Impressive improvement over what I have done with LLA on bullets ! I have some home work to do !

I would not have thought filling lube groove / band was possible to that level of results.

Thanks for the photo and recommendation.

I guess this makes you a Witch Doctor of Bullet Lube

[MtGun44]

Very interesting to use TL methods to get a full conventional lube groove. The only
question remains is "Is this better (you define better) than a conventional lubrisizer or
pan lubing?"

No question it is CHEAPER to set up than a conventional lubrisizer. Probably not any
cheaper than pan lubing, but to each - his own methods.

Rototerrier - I commend you on developing a new technique for lubing boolits.

Bill

[geargnasher]

My experience has been that if a gun leads due to a fit issue, there is no lube on the planet that will keep the bore clean.

The only thing some lubes can help with is antimony wash at higher pressures with low-tin alloy, certain lubes keep the wash suspended in the lube film where others tend to let it stick. Not sure why.

Gear

[rototerrier]

For me it was just something I stumbled on. I have always tumble lubed. I stopped casting / reloading for almost 15 years and just recently got back into it. I went right back to doing what I always did...tumble lubing. I actually had a 15 year old bottle of Alox that worked great after all these years sitting on the shelf.

I had always done the same light coating technique as everyone else but was experimenting one day just trying to get better coverage. That led me to these forums and into mixing my own lube using the posted JPX recipe.

Once I saw what the wax could do, I got to experimenting with ways I could get both the speed of tumble lubing and the greater lube capacity of lube sizing.

Tumble lubing is simply the fastest way to lube a LOT of boolits. But, I don't actually need that many boolits so I have since invested in a Lyman 450. I don't mind sitting down and running the boolits through the lube sizer one at a time. But, If I were shooting more, I think I would stick with tumble lubing.

I don't know if it is "better". If lube coverage is the definition of better...the it is certainly better than the typical light coating. I was also trying to solve a leading issue I was having with 9mm. This completely eliminated the leading but increased the smoke. Once I stopped doing this and started using the lube sizer, my leading returned. Obviously because there is now less overall lube and a different recipe. But, lube was just masking the real issue and by getting more lube on the boolit...I was happy for the time.

Now I have managed to mostly eliminate my leading by changing alloy hardness and increasing the size of the boolit.

I actually just got back from the range and my leading is virtually gone. I have trace amounts but I am done messing with it. Things were accurate and the smoke was very low.

Final result:
Unique Power
ACWW sized to .358
BAC Lube
4.6 gr @ 1.1 OAL

I am going to toy around with different charges on the Unique. I think just a little less, maybe 4.4 or 4.5, might work out a little better.

I agree with what others have said...I think Win 231 is just a little too fast for the 9mm. Unique might still be on the hot side, but it turns out to work pretty well.

It is actually less smokey than the 231...which is exactly the opposite when it comes to my 38 special. I am now going to have to keep 2 different powders for the 2 different rounds.

AND Surely someone else has done this before. I can't possibly be the only one, in the history of tumble lubing, to come up with a way to fill the groove. It doens't take that long either. Maybe 3 or 4 reheats and tumbles.

[geargnasher]

Again, there is no "bad" powder or "bad" alloy. It's how you load it. Unique works just fine in 9mm, load it to medium pressure levels and use air-cooled wheel weights not harder than about 13 bhn. Stay sub-sonic. Use a good lube, and an appropriate case expander to prevent swaging upon seating, and you won't have issues.

BALANCE of peak pressure, pressure/time curve, and alloy hardness and malleability is the key. I can shoot pure lead in 9mm, did it just the other day, used a case full of Trail Boss and some Felix lube. Just enough to cycle the slide, no problems except accuracy wasn't so hot if I let them feed from the magazine due to nose damage. BTW, I used a factory RCBS .357 Magnum case expander spud to get the case large enough to not crush the boolit, and flared with a Lee universal expander.

It's all in how you do it.

Gear

[milprileb]

THundering Coyotes,

Every time you post Gear, I got to rush down to the reloading room and sort another gremlin out !

[geargnasher]

I'm just trying to shed some light on some of the misleading blanket statements that have been made throughout this thread: Hard alloy isn't good or bad as a rule, it's only bad if used in the wrong kind of load. Fast powder like Bullseye isn't automatically a bad choice of 9mm, but you have to know when and how to use it. Is it generally a good choice for 9mm? No. But it CAN be made to work. I did the pure lead test the other day with a friend's gun just to see if it would work, and so I could use that knowledge to demonstrate and extreme here. Pure lead doesn't work worth poop with Blue Dot, I can assure you!

Gear

[milprileb]

Shot 250 rounds today. No leading. Bullets lubed with BAC and LLA shot same as just BAC lubed.

Accuracy was superb.:cbpour::cbpour::cbpour::cbpour:

I will recap where I ended up: COA 1.100, Lee 120 gr TC 9mm bullet lubed with BAC and sized .357, alloy 8.5 # Wheel Wts to 1.5# pure lead, water quenched (will try air cool shortly), and 5.1 gr of 800X (only cause I had it and its a burn rate that is slower than Bullseye which was leading my bore). I will chase Blue Dot for future reloading.

Hind sight: it was not one thing wrong: it was 4 things !. Bullet sizing and fit to bore, wrong powder, too short OAL and too hard a alloy (was pure WW water quenched and size .356). [smilie=p:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:

If ya can't get the bore to lead in 250 rounds, you just ain't trying hard enuff !!

Thanks again to all the Cast Bullet Witch Doctors and Sorcerers of the melt

[BeeMan]

Well done, milprileb!

Thanks for sharing your journey, and especially your success.

[milprileb]

Yes , I perfected the method of moving thru this minefield by stepping on all the land mines!!!

[MtGun44]

Good news. It is often difficult for people to unlearn the "fact" that the solution to leading
is HARDER alloy. Softer and fatter is often the best, but with the shallow rifling in some
9mm barrels, some report that too soft will start to lose accuracy.

Note that LLA doesn't bring much to the party. I am fairly sure that eliminating the WD will
have no bad effects on leading, but just might reduce accuracy. So far for me, straight AC WWts
has worked in a bunch of 9mms, but I keep an open mind that harder just might be needed
for shallow rifled barrels. Haven't seen it yet myself.

Bill

[milprileb]

Bill, I got a solution and am now in a position to tweek about with AC or Water quenching and alloy mix. Of course this is all pistol dependent results for my Taurus 1911 in 9mm. My Inglis Canadian WWII High Power shoots everything w/o leading but it does shoot the 5.1 gr of 800X pushing my current alloy in .357 bullets extremely accurately so this idea of a slower burning powder may later yield a universal (for me) 9mm loading for 120gr Lee TC 9mm bullets.

Anyhow, not running on a flat tire any more. Won't have to toss in the pot those 1200 + already cast and lubed .357 sized TC bullets either. That is a big plus.

[geargnasher]

Just remember that it's all a balance, there is no one magic powder or alloy, it is the proper COMBINATION of all the factors that maintain the dynamic fit from case to muzzle, together with a good static, or initial FIT, that makes a good cast boolit load.

Many different functioning combinations are possible, some better than others. The trick is to develop a philosophy for achieving a good load, and apply it, see what happens, and make adjustments based on results until you get what you want.

In your case, you have a pile of perfectly good HARD boolits. No problem, let's see what we can do to make them work: Good, high-pressure lube, check. Slow powder that builds peak pressure late in the curve, check. Good initial fit, check. Work up to a high pressure level with the powder to maximize obturation (don't expect it to not lead with starting-level loads), check. Try it out, success. Now, if you go to a softer alloy, or air cool what you've been using, you might have to back down a touch on your slow-burning powder charge, or switch to a slightly faster powder to achieve the same accuracy and clean barrel, make sense?

Gear

[milprileb]

Clear Drill Sergeant !

[blackbike]

JRHYS

I was shooting pure WW water quenched and BNH was 21. I added lead as experts here said I did not need that hard a bullet in 9mm.

If you think the leading is soft alloy ( I am using 1.5# Lead to 8.5 # WW) water quenched, then I can go back to WW.

Do you have a BNH number in mind for 9mm ?

Up to this point, the board members told me sizing was critical (I went then from .356 to .357) and I increased sizing. That stopped all leading in the round nose bullets.

The issue is the 120 gr TC design: same alloy , sized .357, stick lubed on 450 Lyman and I expected this bullet not to lead but it does.

Open to your reaction please

That stoped all leading in the round nose bullets! Listen to your gun!

[milprileb]

The issue of leading , regardless of bullet: RN or TC in my particular pistol was solved by going to .358 sizing. Stopped leading, increased accuracy and end of story.

Its been quite a trek to get to this point on 9mm. Too much crimp has also been a issue on accuracy of loads till I lightened it up to a hair like crimp.