Cast Boolit Barrels

[drhall762]

I have gathered from reading posts here that a bore for shooting cast boolits should be smooth, maybe fire lapped, and have "sufficient" land height to adequately cause the boolit to spin.

Having said that, are there any factory/mil-surp rifles that are better than others for cast boolits. I have been told the Type 99 Arisaka and 1909 Argentine are both very good.

Any examples? How about barrel manufacturers? Douglas, etc?

Thanks,

[btroj]

While there may be an "ideal" bore for shooting cast you might be amazed at the less than ideal looking bores that will shoot cast quite well. Good fit will cure many ills.
As for which barrel manufacturer is "best" you will only open a big can of worms.

[HangFireW8]

I have gathered from reading posts here that a bore for shooting cast boolits should be smooth, maybe fire lapped, and have "sufficient" land height to adequately cause the boolit to spin.

The best barrels are hand lapped. If you fire lap them, you void the warranty. Yes, good custom barrels have a warranty.

I don't fire lap except for a last ditch effort to save a sewer pipe bore. It may break in a barrel faster, but I can do that myself the old fashioned way- shoot it. When I corresponded with the late Gale McMillan, he advised me that the fire lap will cut most where it goes the fastest- which is at the muzzle. The result is a slight funnel shape with the open side of the funnel in the wrong direction.




Having said that, are there any factory/mil-surp rifles that are better than others for cast boolits. I have been told the Type 99 Arisaka and 1909 Argentine are both very good.

An Arisaka should have strong rifling but often unusual bore sizes, oversized compared to American standards.

1909 Argentines have excellent workmanship and are highly sought after for that reason.

Any rifle with a clean, smooth bore, crisp sharp crown, and smooth leade (transition into the rifling) has a potential to be accurate with cast boolits. Starting with a bore that is not too far from a standard US size (.284", .308", .323", etc.) will save you lots of trouble finding custom oversized molds and having custom expanders and sizers made.



Any examples? How about barrel manufacturers? Douglas, etc?

Thanks,

Douglas 00 (air gauged) barrels are excellent, relatively smooth, but have shallow lands. Non-00 barrels are not as smooth, but are still good barrels. All will shoot well when properly mounted and chambered, but if I were going to all the expense and trouble, I wouldn't start there for a Cast Boolit rifle.

Lothar-Walther barrels are machine lapped. They may provide the best compromise between price and smoothness.

My ER Shaw and MidwayUSA barrels are rough, they shoot well because they were expertly mounted but with the trouble I had cleaning them and breaking them in, I would have gladly paid the extra $150 for a good barrel.

As for factory, Savage makes a barrel that is as good as can be for as little as possible. The price to be paid is the longer break-in period.

My worst factory barrel experiences were with Remington, but I'm told I just had bad luck. Since I'm tired of having so much bad luck, I stopped buying Remington and my luck has improved. I'm sure someone has had better luck with them than me, as they are still in business.

-HF

[Char-Gar]

The subject of barrels and rifling types can keep this board hopping. Everybody has their favorite. There are good barrels and bad barrels. Even the best makers ship out bad barrels from time to time and cheapo barrels often do very well. So where does that leave us.

I will generalize realizing that all generalizations are subject to a myriad of "yes but" type of responses. We are talking cast bullets here right!

1. Cut rifling is better than button rifling

2. Single point cut rifling is better than broach cut rifling.

3. Hammer forged often doesn't cut it.

So, the best barrel for cast bullets are single point cut rifled barrels of the highest quality are the first choice.

But when push comes to shove both button, broach and hammer forged barrels often do very very well and some single point cut rifled barrels that are hand lapped are lousy.

So where does that leave you? For every barrel maker that is bragged about, somebody will have a bum barrel from that same maker. For every cheapo barrel maker that folks cuss, somebody has a tack driver from that same maker. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

The bottom line is the highest quality barrels cost the most money, and they will deliver the best accuracy, if your heart is pure and the planets and stars align correctly of course.

[nanuk]

I don't fire lap except for a last ditch effort to save a sewer pipe bore. It may break in a barrel faster, but I can do that myself the old fashioned way- shoot it. When I corresponded with the late Gale McMillan, he advised me that the fire lap will cut most where it goes the fastest- which is at the muzzle. The result is a slight funnel shape with the open side of the funnel in the wrong direction.



I don't mean to argue with someone like Mr. MacMillian, But....

Firelapping will open at the breech, cause that is where the grit is largest, and as it travels down the bore, it gets crushed/worn etc and cannot cut so much. also pressure is highest at the breech so the pressure pushing the grit against the walls most there.

I would LOVE to hear Tubbs Vs MacMillian discuss this....

also, many on this forum who have firelapped bores.... How many have noticed a funnel? or how many have noticed a reduced taper?

I've never heard MacMillians theory before.
this needs to be looked into

[nicholst55]

I think too many people firelap a bore that they're having trouble with for the wrong reason(s). Frequently, they never try to troubleshoot the problems they are encountering - they just throw up their hands and say, 'oh it's leading with my "hard-cast" bullets; it must need to be firelapped!'

I've seen threads asking 'should I firelap my new Brand-X gun?' Some folks believe that a new barrel needs to be firelapped before they even shoot one round through it!

There is still so much disinformation circulating about the use of cast bullets that I can't blame these folks. I do try to enlighten them whenever I encounter one. Sometimes they listen and usually they don't. Normally once they start using bullets that fit the bore, are a suitable hardness for the pressure they're loaded to, and lubed with something besides crayons, the leading disappears. It's amazing how that works!

[geargnasher]

I don't mean to argue with someone like Mr. MacMillian, But....

Firelapping will open at the breech, cause that is where the grit is largest, and as it travels down the bore, it gets crushed/worn etc and cannot cut so much. also pressure is highest at the breech so the pressure pushing the grit against the walls most there.

I would LOVE to hear Tubbs Vs MacMillian discuss this....

also, many on this forum who have firelapped bores.... How many have noticed a funnel? or how many have noticed a reduced taper?

I've never heard MacMillians theory before.
this needs to be looked into

I'm glad I kept scrolling and reading rather than snipping that and replying right away! You make the point I was going to. I've lapped thousands of valves and a handfull of barrels, and Clover Compound doesn't wear out or cut faster with higher velocity. The abrasive grains crush and shatter, making smaller and smaller granules until they are so small the amount they cut isn't really noticeable. One of the great advantages to firelapping is it DOES taper the bore ever-so-slightly, in the CORRECT direction. Anyone who doesn't believe me should firelap one and do some very careful slugging and measuring before/after. The way you tell when you should stop firelapping is when you observe the first hint of clean cuts in the bore at the muzzle. If you clean the bore after every shot you can observe the wear marching it's way down the bore toward the muzzle, and the breech end (especially the ball seat) will get worn substantially, that's why it's important to stop after the first visible wear appears at the muzzle end. I don't know what MacMillian was talking about here, not sure he did himself.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Here's something to illustrate Brad and Chargar's points, this is a 50-yard group with the factory bead-and-buckhorns and you wouldn't believe how sorry the .30-30 bore is with old rust. I firelapped it just to smooth the edges of the craters. It doesn't lead at all.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24079&d=1280378396

Gear

[XWrench3]

my basic belief is that any barrel with decent rifling, as long as it is not rough as a cob will work fine as a cast boolit barrel. 4 land, 6 land, microgroove. all of them have one need. good boolit fit. if the barrel is given a boolit it likes, the universe will be at peace. give a barrel a boolit it does not like, and you will soon be beating your head against a wall. sometimes, you have to go larger than you would think to get a boolit that a barrel likes. my microgroove barrel slugs out as .3082". but it wants a .311 boolit to be happy. a .309 will lead badly, and shoot a "pattern", rather than a group.

[303Guy]

One of the great advantages to firelapping is it DOES taper the bore ever-so-slightly, in the CORRECT direction.This is my thinking too. I also think that the more wear in the throat the better for cast or paper patched. I wouldn't fire-lap a new barrel too readily but polishing compound might be a consideration to just polish it up.

[btroj]

The entire key is to go shoot the gun then decide what it tells you it needs. Don't assume anything. You may well be surprised.
As form which milsurp is best for cast- it depends. Which do you prefer? So much depends on the sights, the barrel quality, ease of scope mounting if that is you goal, availability of brass or bullet moulds.
For ease of finding a good fitting mould the 30's are never a bad choice. My FIL has a K31 Swiss that shoots very well but is harder to find brass for. His 303 SMLE is easier to find brass for but wants a far bullet that is tougher to get mounds for. His Swede is good in both regards but also happens to have a very good bore. Almost looks like it was never shot.
You also need to weigh you desired use for said rifle. For plinking bout any rifle with any decent barrel will do. If you want bench rest accuracy then use what the BR guys do. You don't need a top flight BR quality barrel to plink.

I view fire lapping as a tool to help with barrels that just don't seem to want to shoot or not lead. I generally use very few rounds, except my Ruger SRH, and just want to remove any thread choke or slight roughness. I shoot a fair am ought before I lap so I can gauge the results and tell if it made it any better. Others here will say, and rightly so, that lapping is simply accelerated wear so go shoot a bunch and get the same results. I ran 200 rounds of jacketed thru my Marlin 1894c that was acting poorly just for that purpose.

We tend to over think things at times here. We have a need to fix what isn't broken. We get ideas in our head that certain rules "must" be followed. I say go find what works for you and fits your needs. Don't over think it. Don't make it harder than it needs to be. Keep it fun, that is the point of a hobby, isn't it?

[drhall762]

I thank each and everyone of you for taking the time to weigh in on this topic. I have a much better idea of what makes the clock tic so to speak.

Time to load up and shoot, see where the bullets hit and adjust from there.

[HangFireW8]

Mr. McMillan's experience was based on building a rifle for a customer, test fired (under controlled conditions) and shipped "accurate enough to win the super shoot". When he got it back under warranty for inaccuracy, he couldn't figure out what went wrong with it and air gauged it. Finally he asked the customer and was told he had followed another barrel maker's advice on firelapping for break-in.

So, he called that barrel maker (a friend) and asked him why, who simply replied, if they wear out quicker, I sell more barrels that way.

When I relate all this, mind you, I'm not saying fire lapping won't improve a corn cob barrel. But the idea that one should take a custom barrel, or even a good factory barrel, and fire lap it as a way to break it in, is just premature aging.

[uscra112]

Deep grooves are not a requirement. My old, shallow-groove Microgroove Marlin (.35 Rem) shoots the right size boolits just as accurately as jacketed. Col. Harrison showed us mathematically, years and years ago, that a properly fitting cast boolit cannot "strip the rifling" as the old wives' tale has it, even when the boolit is too soft for the load.

[Olevern]

2 groove Springfield

[michiganvet]

@Xwrench3, I think you may have given me an answer to why my bullets do so well in microgroove. I started casting in the late 60's with lyman molds and for what reason I don't remember ended up with a .311 sizing die. When I later aquired a .30 carbine with a bore that was .310+ I got very good results with that as well. Today all my sizing dies are for minimal sizing and lubrication and final sizing is done in the bore.

[ricksplace]

I had a mosin nagant 91/30 that would not shoot anything without resembling a shotgun pattern. I cut the muzzle back until I had crisp rifling all the way around; well, as sharp as I could expect from a bore that was pitted so bad it looked like 10 miles of bad northern ontario roads (we have potholes a foot deep up here). By the time I had cut off about 5 inches, the bore was now about half of the bore diameter off centre. Believe it or not, the damn thing shot close to moa with cast bullets, and solid moa with jacketed.

I cut off the bolt handle and welded on the handle of a butter knife. (butter knife bolt handle). I used a piece of angle iron from an old rusty bed frame as a scope mount, and threw a 5$ gun show scope on it. My shooting buddies called it the "Ukranian Sniper Rifle". Fun times.

[HangFireW8]

2 groove Springfield

I have to chuckle at that one.

I had one, I could shoot 1 inch groups with j-words... if I let it cool several minutes between shots.

When allowed to heat, it strung bullets terribly. Actually, very consistantly. I could graph the direction and amount of stringing based on the amount of heat.

Free floating, two glass bedding jobs, forend tip pressure, and lots of experimentation later, I rebarreled and the heat stringing problem immediately went away.

An anomaly, perhaps, but one man's food is another man's poison.

-HF