Am I going to blow up my 45-70? (Shot and ball)

[Spudgunr]

I'm basing my load on a three round ball load posted by a member here. Here is what I have:

11 grains unique
410 shotgun wad
170 grains of #4 shot
138 grain 451 round ball crimped in the top

The load compresses the powder charge a bit.

The 3 ball load is 414 grains, so I know for pressure I should be fine since I'm 100 grains less than the load posted by the member here. What I'm wondering is how the wad, shot column and round ball will interact in the barrel. Will the gasses push the round ball down the barrel then the shot, or is it the shot column that will be pushing the ball down the barrel? Is there any risk of something getting lodged in the barrel with this load?

I don't really want to blow up my gun, but to test the load I am planning on putting a string on the trigger just in case it does blow up. I really don't think it will though, I think it'll be fine. What do you all say?

[jar-wv]

Don't know if you'll blow up your gun or not. I just want to know what in the world your going to use it for?

jar

[woody1]

I'm basing my load on a three round ball load posted by a member here. Here is what I have:

11 grains unique
410 shotgun wad
170 grains of #4 shot
138 grain 451 round ball crimped in the top

The load compresses the powder charge a bit.

The 3 ball load is 414 grains, so I know for pressure I should be fine since I'm 100 grains less than the load posted by the member here. What I'm wondering is how the wad, shot column and round ball will interact in the barrel. Will the gasses push the round ball down the barrel then the shot, or is it the shot column that will be pushing the ball down the barrel? Is there any risk of something getting lodged in the barrel with this load?

I don't really want to blow up my gun, but to test the load I am planning on putting a string on the trigger just in case it does blow up. I really don't think it will though, I think it'll be fine. What do you all say?

Good Grief! That sounds like something I might try if I had a 45-70. You don't say what you're shooting it out of so I can't comment on safety. I know if it was me, I'd prob'ly be using 2400 powder and a .410 shotshell load. If you're using something stronger than an old trapdoor, you're prob'ly OK. As far as what it's going to do...the wad and shot column are going to push the RB and it's all gonna spin and your shot pattern will be pretty much non-existent after 20-30 feet (my guess) and the RB may do OK but it's undersized. I shoot a lot of RB's in rifles and have tried shot in a few. RB's usually do fine if shot fairly slow. Shot never does past snake killing distance. Regards, Woody

[SharpsShooter]

Don't know if you'll blow up your gun or not. I just want to know what in the world your going to use it for?

jar

Charging Chipmunks Possibly? Seriously I doubt you will have any problem with this load. However the rifling is going to make the pattern very oblong and likely produce somewhat less of a pattern than you might expect.

The buck & ball loads are not new items. Flintlock tradeguns from the Lewis and Clark expedition that were lost during a river crossing were found to be loaded with 90gr of shot and 3-4 ball on top of 100-gr of black IIRC.

SS

[Spudgunr]

I'm mostly just doing this to experiment and see how well it works. The pattern is absolutely going to suck, there just isn't nearly enough pieces of shot with 170 grains of #4.

I'm shooting this in a marlin lever action, so I'm not too worried about the pressure.

I was thinking about trying to just use a regular 410 load but the only powder I have suitable for this is the unique (that I will be using for other cast loads).

I know the 451 (it may be 452, I don't remember) ball is a bit small and wont seal the bore real tight. I thought I had heard though that round balls are most accurate when they are barely engaging the rifling? Well, this one will definately just be BARELY engaging it ;-)

Actually though, depending on the pattern I may try it out on rabbits. If the shot doesn't work well I might try the 3 ball load out.

A question, on bumping the round balls bumping from 457 to 459 isn't a big deal, what would happen to my ball if I bumped it from 451/452 to 459? It seems while it was going down the barrel it'd be even more messed up since it won't keep on the 459 area the whole time.


Edit:

Alliant has cowboy data for 300 grains that uses up to 15 grains of unique so I don't think the 11 grains will be a problem (and there is a 400 grain bullet data with a min of 11 grains unique (no max listed) so the 11 grains on the 3 round balls sounds perfectly reasonable.

[mooman76]

It shouldn't be a problem. I used up to 12.5g of unique in my Trapdoor which has a weaker action. I was having some pressure signs though. But that was with 14g unique, 405g HB bullet and I didn't take into consideration the weight of the cow I was using. I no longer use cow in that gun and I did work the load up before I got the signs.

[Ricochet]

I thought I had heard though that round balls are most accurate when they are barely engaging the rifling?

That would be true for patched round balls.

[hydraulic]

A .22 rimfire works well for rabbits, and would be a lot less trouble.

[Spudgunr]

A .22 rimfire works well for rabbits, and would be a lot less trouble.

And not NEARLY as fun :P

I'm not saying I'm going to be using this all the time, but I want to develop it and try it, just to check the effectiveness. Then I'll move on to my next project.

[Dale53]

You might want to consider the extended range that round balls would fly. Shooting a running rabbit with such a load where you are not exactly sure of the background could get someone hurt.

You might want to think about this. In a shotgun, 7½ shot has a "range" of 900 feet. However, other than danger to your eyes, shot isn't terribly dangerous at much over 25 yards (that is, a person's recovery should be probable (ask Dick Chaney). .451 round balls will go a LOT further. They are life threatening for several hundred yards. One of the "safeties" of a shot charge is its relatively limited range. The bigger the shot, the further the range. Round balls also tend to richochet easily.

Doesn't sound like a particularly good idea to me....

FWIW
Dale53

[Newtire]

I'm basing my load on a three round ball load posted by a member here. Here is what I have:

11 grains unique
410 shotgun wad
170 grains of #4 shot
138 grain 451 round ball crimped in the top

The load compresses the powder charge a bit.

The 3 ball load is 414 grains, so I know for pressure I should be fine since I'm 100 grains less than the load posted by the member here. What I'm wondering is how the wad, shot column and round ball will interact in the barrel. Will the gasses push the round ball down the barrel then the shot, or is it the shot column that will be pushing the ball down the barrel? Is there any risk of something getting lodged in the barrel with this load?

I don't really want to blow up my gun, but to test the load I am planning on putting a string on the trigger just in case it does blow up. I really don't think it will though, I think it'll be fine. What do you all say?

OK will try again..
Tried a load listed awhile back in an article in an old Handloaders Digest called ".444 Marlin Formula for survival". I used 12 grains Unique like in the article
and followed that with a Winchester plastic .410 wad and 1/2 oz. shot, then a round ball crimped in on top of everything. This was in a .444 mind you. I got real sticky extraction! The only time that has ever happened in that gun. Tried another one and same thing so quit after that. Would really be careful with that combination! I did the 3-ball load with no trouble and the shot by itself load but that shot and the round ball did something very weird. Thinking the ball may have acted as an obstruction after the wad compressed or something of that sort. Don't know why but it happened and I haven't done that again.