Cast Boolit design for high velocity

[Buckshot]

..........This is to split off a growing question developing on the 7mm bore rider thread. Plus it got me to thinking. Very seldom in the past have I ever began a reloading plan for pure high velocity. Naturally accuracy is an attendant goal, otherwise reaching high velocity is no problem at all, if you didn't care where the boolits went.

In most of my reading it has appeared that the various authors have suggested the Loverin design to have the highest accurate velocity potential. I will suppose that this is due to the long bearing area (not necessarily total metal against the barrel) and lube capacity.

For me, in the ordinary reloading of cast boolits I've always thought of "High Velocity Cast" as any at, or exceeding 2,000 fps. As a rule I really don't have a need for it. In only 3 instances have I shot cast lead knowing the velocity would exceed 2K and had a particular goal in mind. Two of these were in the 8x57 and 30-40 Krag. The 3rd was in the 7x57 and I had no idea what the velocity would be.

Taking the last first, in the 7x57 I had been able to achieve the original design ballistics of the cartridge with a full case of WC872 surplus ball powder. This was with a 175gr Rem C-L at 2450 fps from a 29" barrel and the powder burned as clean as any. Accuracy was very good. So I decided to substitute the RCBS 7mm-168 for the jacketed bullet. This wieghed 172grs with lube and GC and is a definate bore rider.

The velocity was a bit over 2400 fps and the accuracy at 50 yards was sub 1.5" for 5 rounds. The boolits were visually inspected only. Fuel burned as clean as before. I then reloaded the same load and bullet but also loaded some Lyman 150 gr Loverins also. In addition I used a 1897 Rem R-B in 7x57. Again in both rifles (having 29" bbls) the accuracy was just as good and the Loverin not being more accurate. But these were only 5 round groups and were again just visually inspected boolits. The lighter 150 gr slug was not really any faster.

In my 1898 Krag with a 29" barrel I easily got a Lyman Loverin 311407 @ 183grs up to 2150 fps with very good useable accuracy of sub 1.5" at 50 yards. Due to action strength considerations there was no sense trying to go faster as it was close enough for me. There was no leading and the bore remained dark with lube, and there was always a lube star on the muzzle.

My other attempt at what I consider high velocity was in the 8x57. This time I used my heavy 8mm design at 240grs in a Turk M38/46 with a 24" bbl. The goal was to reach 2300 fps, and was just an arbitrary number I'd somehow arrived at, as being good for a slug of that weight. I achieved it finally while managing to split the stock behind the action tang in the wrist :-(.

This all strikes me as an interesting long term test and comparison. Something I can line out with a definate progression and chartable results. Obviously plowed ground, but some I have never set out to accomplish. Right now I think what I might use is:

Ruger M77 30-06, 4-12 x 44 scope.
Lyman 311291 @ 173grs for the bore rider
Lyman 311407 @ 183grs for the Loverin

M88/14/35, 8x57 issue sights
Lyman 323470 @ 165gr for the Loverin
Lee C323-165R @ 165gr for the bore rider

M98/08 Brazilian, 7x57 issue sights
Lyman 150gr @ 150grs for the Loverin
Lee C285-135R @ 135grs for the bore rider (I'll have to buy the mould)

All three rifles have demonstrated superb accuracy in the past. Should be fun!

..............Buckshot

[BruceB]

So, Rick;

From reading your post, it appears that this is more of an "expand our horizons" project, rather than something being done for a specific purpose???

Sounds very interesting to me! My .416 Rigby runs the RCBS 416-350 (actually 365 in WW) at well-over 2000 fps with great ease and elegance....but it's a little bit "sudden" on the back end at that level. After all, the cartridge made its sterling reputation in Africa with 410 @ 2350, and that is a POWERFUL load. I've had the 365 RCBS up to 2700 fps with good accuracy, but it's flat-out PAINFUL at that speed. Not fun at all....

With the new Fulton M-14 somewhere in the offing, I'm intending -or hoping- to find a good cast-boolit 7.62 NATO load in the 2300-plus area. With circa-180-grain jacketed match loads normally running in the 2500-fps bracket from such match rifles, a good cast load in the same area would be a fine thing. I bought 500 168HP Matchkings for the developmental process....heh, 500 bullets cost ONE HUNDRED YANKEE GREENBACKS! That is cruel and unusual punishment for a caster! The previous (genuine) M-14s I owned in Canada functioned well with cast loads, but I was a veritable babe-in-the-woods with cast rifle loads in those days. I mostly kept a mould around for each rifle caliber for "just in case" scenarios, but really knew very little about the whole subject. That's changed just a bit here lately. I have done seen the LIGHT, brothers!

I'll be very interested to see where this hi-speed project takes you (us). If I could get that javelin-pointed Aladin .30 HBC to group at a speed anywhere above the 2000-fps zone, what a downrange performer it would be! Even the 311299 and similar types will carry velocity very efficiently. This'll be fun...

[Buckshot]

.............BruceB, yup just something I can do as a project that will have defined 'things to do' towards a goal. I do have several rifles currently on hand I've bought but have never done a whole lot with. Then I do have that new K-31 to pick up on the 6th.

The Ruger M77 in 30-06 I noted in the previous post hasn't been shot in some time before moving to town and we moved almost 5 years ago! I haven't had a definate casting program designed for anything in particular in quite some time. Most recent was the S&W V 38 S&W but it was rather abbreviated. Once I switched to a pure lead slug, accuracy problems disappeared.

...............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. You guys are going to have fun. or .... maybe not.

For less experienced shooters, it should be pointed out that high velocity cast is not necessarily for everyone. Or for everyone at this point in their shooting history. There is potential danger here to a shooters whole thought process and pocket book. This .... will open a whole new door that you may not want to open. Especially if you are happy with your shooting at this time.

If your learning curve follows mine, you will gain new insites into all of the variables that you once accepted or took for granted before. A lot of those will be reloading techniques and bullet design. You are going to discover new variables you can't control, like temperature. And after you achieve success, you will feel sooooo good about your accomplishment that you just naturally will want everyone to know. You risk starting to converse in terms that others say, "What the he!! is he talking about?" And you invite ridicule and scorn; off and possibly on the board.

You will gain information that will allow you to revisit, and in a lot of cases, improve your low velocity loads. And just maybe your jacketed loads as well. Or .... if the bug really bites you, it may .... redefine terms such as what you consider acceptable cast bullet accuracy or a low velocity load. This can change your whole outlook towards a particular caliber or firearm. This can get expensive. Even if you say that this is not for me, you will constanly consider returning to the forbidden zone as you discover something that you didn't try.

I had no one to help me in this area when I started. And I succumbed to the call at considerable expense. And I still enjoy every minute of my addiction. But these impulses will be a little more easily controlled, if this is all understood ahead of time. Just remember, ignorance is bliss.

[ben1025]

I have one of Aladins mould also. Really nice looking bullet. Never loaded it but plan to some day. By the way where is Aladin. Haven't seen any of his post since he ramrodded that group mould buy. Wonder if someone ticked him off. Come back Aladin. I miss your post. ben.1025

[StarMetal]

What's so new about this? Dan's 200,000 rpm contest gave it a whirl year or so ago and frankly to tell the truth had I had a full size rifle, with a heavier barrel, a high power target scope, and a better rifle rest, I would have walled away with his new free mould offer. As it was I came dang close with that little 7mm-08 Sako carbine. Maybe I should have took my target scope off my varmint rifle and mounted it on that carbine just as Oldfeller suggested.

Buckshot...I know there are uses for 50 yards groups, but the real test are in 100 yards, or more tests. One and a half inch groups at 50 yards, theoretically equate to three inch groups at 100 yards and to me that's not acceptable. Especially for a scoped rifle off a benchrest. Dang there's been lots of us that shot one inch groups at that distance with cast using open sights.

All I learned, so far, was that I had weigh my bullets (instead of just culling them by sight) use a much harder alloy, and be somewhat more careful in my loading.

For rifles I concider 0 to 1800 fps light loads, 1900 to 2400 fps medium loads, and above that high velocity loads..DEPENDING ON THE CARTRIDGE!!! There is a major difference (and I might add awhole lot more things happening) between 2400 fps and 2700 fps.

As you fellows know I've not been one to load my rifle loads with pistol/shotgun powders when I first began shooting cast bullets in my long guns. I shot cast because I liked making my own bullets, not because I wanted to save money. With that said alot of my loads have been in the area of what Buckshot would call high velocity. Usually with most my rifles I started at 1800 fps.

Joe

[BruceB]

Joe, you're absolutely correct, of course. There's nothing at all new about starting ANOTHER test series for higher speeds.

It's just that some of us can't resist beating our heads against the wall (thinking, "Maybe THIS time..."). The definition of fanaticism is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result THIS time (grin). As mentioned in my earlier post, the .416 does very well at high speed, but with considerable wear-and-tear on the shooter. It'll be a bit more tolerable once I build the standing-benchrest for Der Schuetzenwagen (I hope).

I'm not too worried about small-caliber high velocity, where every variable is so very critical. I now have (or will have, once a new LBT mould arrives from Anachronism) four different boolit designs available in .338, and that is where I'm gonna start. The boolits are all 200-plus grains and my two .338 Winchester Magnum rifles are in perfect shape, barrel-wise. Seems like a good place to begin, and there also seems to be a general lack of info about this cartrdge so maybe I can make a contribution for the archives. It may be that the heavier boolits and larger bore will make life a wee bit easier in the quest for higher velocity WITH accuracy.

Hmmm. I keep coming back to that .30 HBC boolit...it sure do look like a sleek long-ranger to me. Hafta try it in a few more loads, as I only managed a very brief series back when the mould arrived. There'll be a lot of .30-caliber work coming up with my new M-14 whenever it arrives, and I believe I'll piggyback the .30-06 Garand into the same program to see what might be possible. I've never determined the M1's actual ability with jacketed loads, so it's hard to say when or if I reach the same accuracy level with cast rounds....or even BETTER it with cast boolits. The M1 also has a brand-new issue barrel, so it should be a decent test-bed. I dislike doing the intensive bore-cleaning needed when switching from cast to jackets and back again, but it can't be helped (sigh).

As I said, it's gonna be fun....frustrating maybe, but fun.

[StarMetal]

Don't let that sleek Aladin bullet fool because it looks like it can go fast. Actually it's shape has more to do with aerodymanics then with it's velocity that can be obtained out of the barrel. Yeah bearing area has something to do with how much friction thus velocity you'll get. What I'm getting at, other then looking sleek, it's near the same as other cast bullets. How's it going to align with the bore, how good is it going to seal, how much bearing area is there to support the higher pressure and stresses of high velocity loads, etc.

Joe

[Buckshot]

.............Joe, I have abolutely no need whatsoever to shoot cast lead fast. I like shooting it the way I do 99.999% of the time and that's 1400 to 1800 fps. For ME, by MY definition, anything over 2K is high velocity. I have only once in my entire put together ever tried deliberately for what I define as high velocity and that was in the 223. I don't think the 6.5x55 Swede counts. I have shot some high velocity "For the Cartridge" type stuff, like a 405gr at 2150 in the 45-70 MAS36 conversion. That was more testing the platform.

My use of the 7x57 was just a "Let's see what happens" deal after shooting 175gr grain bullets, and I was surprised.

As I said, this is plowed ground. People have been there and done that. I don't expect to come up with any earthshaking new deal that will suddenly allow all of us to shoot cast at 3,000 fps. All I have for lube is Javalina and that green heat lube AnthonyB discarded in my direction. I have lino, WW and pure lead, and I can water drop or oven heat treat same as anyone else.

Lottsa folks have been where I'm going to go. Just that I haven't done it yet and the entire proceedure should be a fairly simple linier type series of shooting tests.

I'm just gonna do it for the shear hell of it.[smilie=l:

................Buckshot

[buck1]

I have been playing this game also. I just want to know what it takes to do it. A pure learning thing. I have a RCBS 165 sil with a BHN24 alloy, felix lube, in a .308 single shot pistol. I have it doing 2350+/- from a 14 in bbl wile grouping 1.5" at 100. Javilina seems to do as well as Felix , but I was suprised that LBT blue didnt do as well.
Bass is correct TEMP IS A BIG DEAL IN THIS GAME!
Boolits need to be put to the scale. ...Buck

[felix]

Javilina seems to do as well as Felix , but I was suprised that LBT blue didnt do as well. Bass is correct TEMP IS A BIG DEAL IN THIS GAME! ... buck1

Keep the barrel short for high velocity, and you won't see much difference in NRA and FWFL. Castor oil added to LBT blue should make it shoot faster. This is assuming castor oil will be compatible, and you won't know until you try. I'd use 1/2 teaspoon max per stick and mix for 15 minutes at 150 degrees. Veral would not tell me what his mix was made of, so I cannot be sure about anything. ... felix

[buck1]

Javilina seems to do as well as Felix , but I was suprised that LBT blue didnt do as well. Bass is correct TEMP IS A BIG DEAL IN THIS GAME! ... buck1

Castor oil added to LBT blue should make it shoot faster. This is assuming castor oil will be compatible, and you won't know until you try. I'd use 1/2 teaspoon max per stick and mix for 15 minutes at 150 degrees. Veral would not tell me what his mix was made of, so I cannot be sure about anything. ... felix

I had high hopes for the LBT. It is a good lube, but in my testing I think FWFL has The edge.
I will try the caster in it, as I am a sucker for a experiment. Also I will try the tumble lube then lube with FWFL, as mentioned in another thred.

[Bass Ackward]

I had high hopes for the LBT. It is a good lube, but in my testing I think FWFL has The edge.
I will try the caster in it, as I am a sucker for a experiment. Also I will try the tumble lube then lube with FWFL, as mentioned in another thred.

Buck,

If you try to compare lubes by individual loads you will go crazy as circumstances pick a "new" winner every time. Think about what you are trying to achieve and learn what characteristics you need from a lube to do that job.

[StarMetal]

Buckshot

Well I just did that for that contest, as there's no sense in pushing the limit if you don't need too. But after I got that 7mm-08 to 2700 fps I thought, hmmmm, wonder how that would do on groundhogs. Might be I would have a application for it.

Joe

[buck1]

Buck,

If you try to compare lubes by individual loads you will go crazy as circumstances pick a "new" winner every time. Think about what you are trying to achieve and learn what characteristics you need from a lube to do that job.


Goog point! Lets see what we can come up with. High speed/ pressure lube should have.........
A high film strength. Ritch in lube(oils,allox, etc) and light on the carrer (bees wax) to give the best use for lube grove room??( more please)

I have heard but I cant rember ...Theres a soap used in some greese thats concidered great for its film strength. Any one know the name or how to get it? I think it starts with a "S"?? ....buck

[Bass Ackward]

Goog point! Lets see what we can come up with. High speed/ pressure lube should have.........
A high film strength. Ritch in lube(oils,allox, etc) and light on the carrer (bees wax) to give the best use for lube grove room??( more please)

I have heard but I cant rember ...Theres a soap used in some greese thats concidered great for its film strength. Any one know the name or how to get it? I think it starts with a "S"?? ....buck

Buck,

Felix told you that with a short barrel, you have more options. If you had a longer barrel, you might find the FWFL or LBT improving in performance over 50/50.

You can not have your cake and eat it too when it comes to a lube. There is always advantages .... and disadvantages. Anytime you combine a petroleum product and carbon, you get tar. If you cut back on the bees wax, you get a softer stickier lube that is not so good for hot climates. Nothing works for every application.

A real good hardner that Felix mentioned before, that also shoots cleaner, is Carnuba. I add a teaspoon to everything I use. Currently, I am trying out a lithium soap based grease that doesn't thicken in my freezer. I might add a little bit of molly to it if need be for high pressure use. I use Mobil 1 for the melt. I want to keep it simple.

[C1PNR]

Buck,

A real good hardner that Felix mentioned before, that also shoots cleaner, is Carnuba. I add a teaspoon to everything I use. I want to keep it simple.
A great source of Carnuba wax, one that I HIGHLY recommend, is Maker's Mark Bourbon!;-)

The red wax sealer on the cap is pure Carnuba! And the stuff inside the bottle really eases the inevitable frustration felt during most of the very high velocity cast loads experiments![smilie=l:

[David R]

I am shooting 57 grain nose riding 22-250 @ around 2400 by lyman book. My crony says 2650, but I have always thought it read fast. Just over an inch at 100 yards and I can repeat that. I tried 2700, but could just keep em on 8.5 X 11. I THINK bigger calibers should be easier. Yes I weigh my boolits and charges.

I just tried my 1917 enfield, I am just going to keep boosting the velocity till they fall apart. I am at 1600 now, just a starting load. This is fun!

[buck1]

When it comes to lube, I am lacking in "the know" for sure!!
Bass.. Felix sugested adding a + amount of carnuba to my Felix Lube, and it did help a lot.

Lithium soap! Thats it!!
A CB target shooter I know told me of a lube that was the very best he had ever used for high vel! In fact he gave me a few sticks of LBT and said it couldnt match the lithium soap based lubes film strength! He told me the name wile I was up to my eyeballs in melting WW, so I didnt jot it down .This guys PICKY and knowlageable as they come. If he says something that strongly , you can bet its been through the mill a few million times first. I will get a hold of him and get the name of it again.
I shutter to think where I would be with out you guys, and your great advice!!!!!!!...buck