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Muddy Creek Sam
06-28-2011, 07:16 PM
Howdy all,

Gat a hankerin to try a front stuffer rifle, What do you reccommend for a newbee?

Sam :D

docone31
06-28-2011, 07:22 PM
Cabelas Traditional Hawken rifle. I have had several.
If I were to get another one, instead of .50, I would get .54.
I made a toe plate for mine from brass stock. Came out rather well. I did one in Iron Furniture also. That one was a beauty. Track of the Wolf has the Iron kit.
A worthwhile ambition.
That one, or Lyman Great Plains Rifle.
both are good.

45-70 Chevroner
06-28-2011, 07:42 PM
It all depends on what you think of as a front stuffer. I personally prefer traditional. That being early american in my way of thinking. I like the nostalgia of cap locks and flint locks, but I lean toward the cap locks. Like docone31 suggested a good Hawken rifle is hard to beat. I have one in a Thompson Center 54 cal. round ball shooter and I also have a 50 cal slug barrel for it. I really like that gun. It will shoot 2 and 3 inch groups all day long with the 54 cal round ball barrel. I had a CVA 54 Hawkin and it shot almost as well but I gave it to one of my grand sons. I think 50 cal or 54 cal round ball shooters are great for Deer and Elk. If you like Inlines I can't help you much, because I don't like the looks of them. If I'm going to shoot a modern rifle I just as well stick with my cartaridge rifles.

mooman76
06-28-2011, 07:42 PM
What are you wanting it for? Just plinking , hunting or more serious shooting. If it's a just see if I like it kind of deal, I'd pick up a cheap used one. You can get them pretty cheap. And then after you get hooked, cause more than likely you will, you will have a better idea of what you want and can get a better one. They are like Lays tader chips, can't have just one.

Muddy Creek Sam
06-28-2011, 08:02 PM
moonman,

Only ever shot one once, Deer hunting with a friend in Vermont. Didn't hit a thing. Do a lot of BP shooting in SASS and though it would be fun to try again. Don't hunt anymore so just plinking.

Sam :D

mooman76
06-28-2011, 09:38 PM
If you can find someone close to you that shoots an ML see if they will take you out. Usually pawn shops are littered with them from people who loose interest. So don't like it when they find out it takes a little work to have fun. Or better yet see if you can find a local club. They are usually more than happy to let you shoot with them. Tat's where there's lots of fun. Telling old war stories as they load and someone always forgets the powder when they load and talk at the same thing. Might even find someone wanting to upgrade their ML and sell the old one. A 45 or 50 would work great for plinking or you ould even go smaller if you want.

45-70 Chevroner
06-28-2011, 09:57 PM
One more thing, like moonman76 said you'l probably get hooked. I am what you might call hooked. I have 4 ML rifles, a Triditions 32 cal, a CVA 36 cal, a Custom 32" barreled Kentucky Rifle 50 cal, a 54/50 cal Thompson Center Kentucky Rifle, 2 cap and ball pistols and 3 cap lock single shot pistols.

docone31
06-28-2011, 09:57 PM
Thats for sure!
I am an old hand at this, and one day at the range, showing my wife how to do it, I didn't powder several times in one day!
It happens.
She was terrified of her rifle at first, then with the unload fires, and removing the nipple, packing poweder, setting the primer, touching it off, doing it a second time with a little more powder. She quieted down.
You do gain a serious respect for the back whens with a front stuffer.
I like them. I like the smell, the lines, the process. The whole bit. Quite comfortable to fire also. A 70gn load with a .50 is not bad at all. A 40gn load is easy firing. Pistols are a ball also.
I want a Dragoon second model. That will be next for me.

Boz330
06-29-2011, 07:59 AM
For plinking and target I would stay with 40 or less. Easy on powder and ball and no recoil to speak of. Just fun.

Bob

10 ga
06-29-2011, 09:30 AM
Dittos for dcone31 " " . I have 3 Cabelas traditional guns and one was me 1st BP gun. Also have a Lyman which is nice. My oldest Cabelas is an early model 50 cal that has 1/60 twist and is very accurate roundball gun. I see some pretty decent ML rifles at the gun shows and the prices are pretty good. Usually in the $1C to 2C range. $.02 10 ga

Hanshi
06-29-2011, 12:08 PM
A Cabelas cap lock is an excellent choice for a first muzzleloader. You may even find it a favorite years from now when you have several other guns. I'd suggest a .45 or .50.

Ajax
06-29-2011, 12:53 PM
Another great starter rifle is the Lyman Great Plains rifle. They have great quality and are pretty affordable to boot.
I kno wit has been reccomended to stay with a small caliber rifle, but in my opinion i have been ledt wanting for
bigger but rarely wanting for smaller. Plus whats not to love about a big ole ball putting holes in the target that
are easy to see.


Andy

mooman76
06-29-2011, 08:07 PM
Cabelas BP rifles are or at least were at one time made by Lyman. I have one I bought used years ago. It's a Hawkins with 50 & 58 barrels and I jumped all over it when I saw it at a gunshow.

ktw
06-29-2011, 09:16 PM
Cabelas BP rifles are or at least were at one time made by Lyman.

The Lyman and Cabelas branded muzzeloaders are manufactured by Investarms of Italy.

I think the Lyman Great Plains Rifle is the best of the value priced, factory muzzleloaders. If you are willing to spend more money for something better than factory I would consider one of the small, semi-custom makers in the US.

-ktw

Ajax
06-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Buy a kit and have someone build it like i am doing.


Andy

Flinchrock
06-29-2011, 09:53 PM
If you want to start out with a rifle that is not "custom",,,there are three that I can reccomend,,,

Lyman Great Plains, pick your caliber,,,54-50

TC "Hawken",,,readily availiable in .50, littlt harder to find in .54

Early TC Renegade in .54 (my personal favorite)

All of these rifles have a different stock, the GPR has more drop than the "Hawken". The Renegade has a "shotgun" style stock, all of these are high quality rifles and will probably make that learning curve a little less steep.

It would be hard to go wrong with any of these,,,the Thompsons are usually 1-48 and the Lyman is usually 1-66,,,all of them will shoot round ball just fine, the TC's make a better "slug" gun.

Some folks like the Cabellas,,,me, I think that they are ok, and often have great wood,,,but I like the GPR's and TC's better.

philthephlier
06-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Another great starter rifle is the Lyman Great Plains rifle. They have great quality and are pretty affordable to boot.
I kno wit has been reccomended to stay with a small caliber rifle, but in my opinion i have been ledt wanting for
bigger but rarely wanting for smaller. Plus whats not to love about a big ole ball putting holes in the target that
are easy to see.

Ditto, great rifle for the money.

Longwood
06-30-2011, 04:22 PM
I had a CVA mountain rifle that would outshoot any Thompson Hawken I owned (2) or shot against. I don't thinl CVA makes them any more so you have to look for a used one. If you find one with authentic brown metal and a blond maple stock, it may be the one that was stolen from me. It was a shooter, so grab it if you see it.
A couple of friends had Lymans Great plains rifles and they could often outshoot me with them.
When you get your rifle, work up a load for it.
Take the time to look for different patch material until you find the correct thickness. The blue striped mattress ticking worked best for me. I never found any pre-made (AKA too expensive) patches that were the correct thickness, plus,,,, the ticking looks period authentic.
Make up some packets of weighed charges in 1/2 grain increments to take to the range with you. I usually made enough for two five round strings of each amount of powder.
Just like any other hand load, powder amounts can and will make a big difference in group size.
Expect to be impressed (along with your friends) with how accurate a muzzle loader can be. Cheap to shoot is another big plus for muzzle loaders.
Plastic milk jugs full of water with some food color or fabric dye, make real fun targets. The more color the better.
The packets I mentioned I made with about 4" square paper bag pieces folded into a funnel shape that I taped or glued shut. I tore the small end off of at the range. The sure make experimenting with different charges simple at the range.

1Shirt
06-30-2011, 05:45 PM
Back when I was shooting front stuffers, seemed like I owned one of every thing for awhile. Took the best deer I have ever shot with anything with a CVA Mountain Rifle 58 cal that I put together w/round ball at a measured 110 yds. Wish I had kept it. Really enjoyed and still have a 50 TC Renegade, and took a nice muley do with in in the sandhills at a bit beyond 100, with REAL projectile. Also took a nice javalina with the Renegade north of Roosevelt Dam, in AZ, with round ball at about 75 yd. If I was to recommend any as a starter, think I would recommend a CVA kit so you can learn from the bottom up, and would probably recommend either a 45-or 50. Good luck!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

Ajax
06-30-2011, 05:51 PM
CVA doesn't make traditional kits any more. You can get Traditions and Lyman caplocks as kits.


Andy

Longwood
06-30-2011, 06:07 PM
CVA doesn't make traditional kits any more.
Andy

Yeah, I know.
I tried to buy one about a year ago.
:cry:
There is no way I would let one of those ugly, so called, modern rifles they make now in my house.

Where did I put that Tomahawk?

mooman76
06-30-2011, 08:09 PM
I happen to have a CVA mountain rifle I got used and I'm hanging onto it. They quit making them some time ago and I heard someone else made the barrels for the mountain rifles at least for part of that period and I don't recall who but it was a good maker of barrels (obviously). The guns usually go for higher than average prices of used MLs.

Flinchrock
07-01-2011, 07:30 AM
The CVA Mountain Rifle was the absolute BEST thing that CVA ever did!

The early barrels were Douglas and would shoot as good as anyone could hold! I am fortunate enough to own one. No I don't want to sell it!

I didn't recomend the Mt. rifle because they are hard to find!

Let the man get a good factory production rifle to get his feet wet and learn with.
Once he starts hangin' around with other front stuffin' guys, knowledge will start coming in leaps and bounds.

Kits are a lot of work! The classifieds over on the muzzleloading forum are a good place to look for a good used rifle.

The custom builds are expensive and the build it yourself guns take a lot of time and work to get them fitted and finished right!

I like .54 cal,,,it makes a a big visible hole in paper,,,and kills most anything it hits should you want to hunt with it.

Personally, I'm a roundball man,,,don't have much use for "conicals",,,to each their own.

fishhawk
07-01-2011, 08:23 AM
On that big bore mountain rifle that CVA made I was at Friendship in 1986 and CVA had a booth set up in the sheep pens. So i got to talking to them and found out they only made 500 of the big bore mountain rifles! Guess that's why they very seldom show up and I'm lucky enough to have one of the .58 caliber rifles. Steve k.

Longwood
07-01-2011, 09:41 AM
Kits are a lot of work! The classifieds over on the muzzleloading forum are a good place to look for a good used rifle.

The custom builds are expensive and the build it yourself guns take a lot of time and work to get them fitted and finished right!

I like .54 cal,,,it makes a a big visible hole in paper,,,and kills most anything it hits should you want to hunt with it.

Personally, I'm a roundball man,,,don't have much use for "conicals",,,to each their own.

Yep to all that.
If I were starting from nothing, I would buy a factory built then make one from a Kit then down the road maybe have a custom made.
I have had several 50's to keep things simple but would go with 54 if doing it all again.

Marvin S
07-01-2011, 08:42 PM
Lots of used guns to be had, check Track of the wolf, contemporary long rifle,Traditional Muzzle loading classifieds and frontier folk web site. If your not going to hunt large game get a 36 to 45 cal. Just be sure it has a good slick bore.

Muddy Creek Sam
07-02-2011, 08:14 PM
Got a 50 cal TC Omega today in trade. What size ball and how do I patch?

Thanks from the newbee,

Sam :D

ktw
07-02-2011, 08:36 PM
Got a 50 cal TC Omega today in trade. What size ball and how do I patch?

1 in 28" twist

Plastic sabot and a 44 or 45 caliber pistol bullet, or a heavy, grease groove conical.

You can try a patched round ball at modest velocity but the twist is too fast and rifling is too shallow to shoot them with any speed.

-ktw

Omnivore
07-06-2011, 08:13 PM
With my own experience with a Lyman Deerstalker, and all the favorable responses from other Lyman owners (mostly with the Great Plains Rifle) I'd take a good look at the Lyman Trade Rifle. For a lower price than the GPR it looks like a good choice if money is tight.

If money's not so much an issue, the new Pedersoli Hawkens are the most authentic production Hawken I've seen, either in the Rock Mountain or the Missouri River version. Unlike the Lyman GPR, they have the proper, long tang bolted into a long trigger plate for more strength in the wrist area. Cabela's, among others, sells them. They go for only slightly more than a good and proper Hawken kit. I have over 800 into my parts for a custom-built, and the Pedersoli Hawken starts at around a thousand.

10 ga
07-08-2011, 07:39 PM
Hope it was a good trade. Go on down to the "vendor/sponsor" and check out the BRP sabot boolits. Jeez I just got the message about BRP out of business! Check out the PP sticky at the top of the ML forum. Should go good with an Omega. Sabots will also work good in that Omega. If you try patched RBs keep the charges light, about 45-50 gr BP or equal. Pillow ticking patches for sure. I have one of the BRP 300 gr. sabot boolit molds and it shoots good in the 28 and 48 twist 50s. Best. 10