Misfire/Hangfire

[cavalrymedic]

I went out shooting yesterday with my friends. I took along my T/C Seneca to shoot some to ready myself for Muzzleloading season. 90 grains of Pyrodex RS and a Hornady Sabot. BTW, I know I should use patch and ball, I just haven't got that yet and I still have half a box of sabots to burn. I used a #11 Cap and pop, but no Bang. Pulled of the cap, replaced it, and pop, no bang. Again and again and again. I made sure there was nothing in the bore before I loaded. So what gives?
Full disclosure. I suspect that the nipple or the hole leading from the nipple to the chamber may be obstructed. With what, I have no idea. I have "cleaned" the nipple and hole using a plastic pic the last few times I have shot her. I am guessing that this is insufficient. Now I Blook online and I notice there is something called a nipplewrench. I had no idea. Is it critical to remove the nipple to properly clean the hole leading to the chamber? Do you suppose this is my problem? Bear in mind, I'm still really really new to muzzleloading, less than 8 rounds fired lifetime.

I "tested" a small bit of the Pyrodex. Instant and violent ignition with a grill lighter. The caps, although I have no idea how old they are, made a load snap when the hammer fell on them and produced just a little bit less smoke than a cigarette puff.

I have the Seneca set in a safe place in the barn. I plan on getting brand new caps, and a nipple wrench. Do you think I can clean out the hole with the chamber loaded, put in a new cap and fire the gun clear?

Thanks for being gentle.

[Az Rick]

I would certainly try that first. Be very careful, last year a fellow here had a hangfire,...thought he'd waited long enough and looked down the barrel, guess what happened, DOA. Use a face shield at least when you remove the nipple, also turn it away from you so you won't be hit by the blast if it goes. Muzzle in a safe direction. Clean the nipple good and try again. You may have contaminated the powder by oil in the bore or moisture.
It's a good habit to swab the bore with clean dry patches before you shoot, you'll know if the bore is wet. You can also pop off a cap, with the gun unloaded to prep the bore. Cheap insurance to help prevent hangfires.

Best, Rick

[NickSS]

You are obviously new to ML so if not forgive me for giving you the following info. First the gun is charged. The first thing you do is get a nipple wrench and remove the nipple. You will find one of two things under the nipple either an empty cavity with a hole leading to the bore or a lot of crud or powder. Using a nipple pick clean out the cavity and run it down into the bore as far as you can reach. Then pour a bit of powder into the cavity and screw in the nipple after making sure that you can see a hole through it. cap the nipple and point the rifle down range and fire it. Unless there is some really hard fouling or your powder is totally soaked in oil it should go off. If not try this a second time trying to get more powder down the hole into the bsrrel as well as in the cavity below the nipple then fire it again. The ball should come out of the barrel. If this does not work get a ball screw and try pulling the ball by screwing the ball screw mounted on the ram rod into the projectile then pulling it out of the barrel. If this does not work take it to a gun smith and have him remove the breach plug and clean the gun out.

When loading a ML rifle there are two things you should do before you pour any powder down the bore. First is to run a dry patch down the bore to remove any oil or grease. Second is to cap the nipple point the muzzle down at the grass or leaf and fire the cap. Observe if the grass or leaf moves. If it does you are good to go if not fire another cap. This cleans out any grease or oil in the flash channel. Then load and fire as usual. The principle reason for what happened to you is dirt or oil in the flash channel.

When cleaning the rifle especially on a seneca which has a pattent breach take the barrel off the stock by knoking out the wedge pin and lifting it out. Remove the nipple and place the breach end in a bucket of hot soapy water. put a patch on your cleaning jag and run it up and down the bore several times. This will pump hot soapy water up the barrel and flush all grud out the nipple hole. Upend the barrel and let it drain completely. Then run a dry patch or two down the bore to completly dry it then follow this with an oilly patch to lube the bore. Clean the outside and oil it as well. Clean the nipple, place a drop of oil on the nipple threads (or you can use never seize) and screw it it tight. Remount the barrel after cleaning the hammer and lock from powder residue. You can use bore cleaniers but from my experience this is OK for feild cleanings but not good for long time storage unless you work much harder than my meathod requires.

[SmuvBoGa]

CavMedic,

Slow down, THINK about what you are doing. NickSS is giving good advice & I don't have to type it up ! :violin:
ANY water, oil, gunk down the barrel WILL fowl your powder (DOA) - yes I have gotten in a rush at shooting matches & forgot to DRY swab - yup, I held up the entire match with a fowled rifle. Slow down, develop a method, pattern to load by & stick too it. Trying to be "fast" will cause you pain.
Esp GOOD advice is to "snap caps" until you see grass, leaves, etc dance from the "pop". Black powder IS life in the fast lane - slow down & enjoy ! [smilie=w:

JohnMc

[Marvin S]

The Senecas where either 45 or 36 cal 90 gr sounds like a bit much

[mooman76]

All gave good advice here and you should get it figured out. Another good thing is after you clean and oil your gun it's a good idea to store it muzzle down that way if you did put a little too much oil in it, it can drain.

[cavalrymedic]

Thanks to all. Esp NickSS. I'm ordering a nipple wrench, and maybe a nipple pick if I can find it. I would NEVER have thought of snapping a cap in the empty barrel before loading. Why is it that instructions like this are never in the owner's manual. It also says nothing of removing the nipple and keeping the fire channel clear. Sadly, it'll be a week or more before I can get to cleaning it as I know have to wait for 1) Payday 2) arrival of nipple wrench, better BlackPowder specific bore cleaner, and some nice new 44 cal round balls and patches.

This is why I needed to get shooting with only 3 months till muzzleloading season. Thanks again.

[quilbilly]

Ditto's to NickSS. I also agree that 90 gr is an awfully stiff charge even in a 45cal.
I have a Seneca .45 and it has been my "go-to" blacktail amd timber mule deer rifle for almost 20 years. My charge for patched round ball is 55 gr of GOEX FFF and all but one of the deer taken with it have been one shot kills DRT.

[waksupi]

Black powder specific cleaner won't help a bit with Pyrodex. Different composition all together.
When loading again, keep in mind the load you have in at the time is equivelent, more or less, to a .45-90 buffalo rifle. Kinda hot for a muzzle loader.

[DIRT Farmer]

You might want to stop past a smoke shop and pick up some ream and clean pipe cleaners, they are the best I have found for cleaning the flash channel.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

while your ordering your nipple wrench get extra nipples they are very handy to have they eventual get a bur and the cap doesn't go on well that leads to ignition issues also


you don't need their wrench depending on the gun but it makes it much easier

when you clean , you will want a pail of hot water 1gal pail is fine 1/2 gallon very hot water dish soap a generous squeeze

take the barrel out if the stock remove the nipple , place the breach in the hot water with a patch on your jag push all the way to the bottom bubbles will come out the flash hole pull back up almost all the way out scrub up and down this will draw hot soapy water in to your barrel then force it out with the crud thru the flash channel forcing the gunk out of it also

pipe cleaner form a smoke shop is good to clean the flash channel then
you can repeat this with just hot water to clear the soap

then run dry patches the air pushes the water from the channel as you push the dry patches down with some speed

different people do this different ways i have a friend who swears by zippo lighter fluid just a little bit down the flash channel then light it and it burns drying out all the moisture he does the same for the nipple then he puts the nipple in

run an oil patch to lightly oil the bore , oil the outside and reassemble your gun

loading start with snapping caps till you get a crisp snap it may take 2-3 once you fire a few you will be able to hear the difference a clean flash channel makes

then powder , then cap when your on the line or ready to hunt

you would be surprised how little powder you need to target shoot we load 30 gr in 50 cals for the kids in the 4h program that will punch paper at 25 yards all day no sore shoulder

for patch lube we use 1/3 rubbing alcohol 1/3 hydrogen peroxide 1/3 Murphy oil soap
in a small dark spray bottle it works great keeps the fouling soft i have loaded 20+ times without swabbing the bore between shots and can be used on a patch for a field cleaning before you go home and really clean it down right


it all starts with a clean dry gun

[Omnivore]

What everyone else said.

I quit using soap in the hot water a long time ago though, after finding some light rust forming immediately. I figure the slight grease film in the barrel isn't a bad thing. Why cut it with soap? Never had any issue since.

Don't wait to clean the rifle. Do it now. You can remove the nipple and do it again later, but for now you have potentially corrosive powder residue in there. "Slush pump" the bore as described herein already and rinse the bulk of it out, and grease the bore afterwards. The pitted bores you find in old muzzleloaders come from people not cleaning after a day of shooting. "Never let the sun set on a dirty rifle" or something like that, is an old saying.

I've had far more hang fires using Pyrodex than real black powder. Flint shooters don't use the substitutes, as a rule. The ignition temp is higher for Pyro than for black, or so goes the common wisdom. My experiences tend to bear that out.

I don't know if it was said above, but don't use petroleum based oils or lubes with black powder. Most of them will result in a hard, tar-like fouling that's way more difficult to deal with - harder to load, harder to clean. Use animal and plant lubes, either the commercial BP lubes or some home-made from things like tallow, lard, bee's wax and olive oil. There are some exceptions to this, but I haven't tried them and can't comment. With Pyro, as said, the chemistry is different and so someone else will have to relate their experiences with it and petro-lubes.

The instructions that I've seen with the new BP guns have all given the above advice for the most part.

When maintained and loaded correctly, your caplock should fire just like a modern cartridge gun, i.e. no hang-fire. When I first started out I often got a Ka-Boom, rather than a simple Boom. There should be no perceptable delay.

Why anyone would look down the bore of a loaded rifle is beyond me. Holy Smokes! Rule One is there for good reason.

Eventually you will "dry ball" your gun also (raming a ball with no powder under it). Always carry a nipple wrench. I've dry balled a couple times, removed the nipple, worked some powder into the nipple hole, shook it into the bore, worked in some more powder, repeat, seat the ball again, cap and fire; "Bloop!" Out comes the ball. Some people use a CO2 bottle with a nipple fitting to blow out a dry-ball. Muzzleloader suppliers sell those as kits.

My Lyman (Investarm) rifle has a clean-out screw in the snail. I always carry an Allen wrench for it too, because I have to loosen the clean-out screw before I remove the nipple.

Have fun. You may be surprized at what you can do with your rifle.

Oh; also always carry a patch worm. That's for when a jag lets go of a patch, leaving a patch stuck down in the bore. I've had to do all these things in the field, at least once.

[Omnivore]

Also note; some ML rifles have a "patent breech" or "breech chamber" that's of a smaller diameter than the barrel proper. You may never know about it unless you check and see if yours has one. Use the smaller end of the ramrod, or a cleaning rod of smaller diameter than the ramrod, to probe for this feature, or contact the manufacturer about it. If you find it, I say it's a good idea to figure out a jag that can be used to swab the breech chamber also. The breech chambers in my two 50 cal caplock rifles are of about 35 caliber. Your mileage may vary, but since keeping the ignition going properly is of primary importance, then it's not a bad idea to swab that area where main charge ignition actually takes place. I do it and it hasn't hurt me yet.

The instructions that came with my factory rifle said practically nothing about this.