Renegade results

[joeb33050]

I'm getting nowhere. Wednesday I got and tried some Goex FFFG. I've been using 70 gr. Pyrodex RS. 70 gr. volume FFFg and I couldn't get the second ball in the gun without hammering. TC .015" ticking lubed bought patches, .490 round balls, bought. It is just a bear getting the patched ball into the gun. Went to 60 gr. FFFg, easier but still hard to get the patched ball into ghe barrel. Started cleaning between shots, paper towel patches, soapy water damp patch, then dry patch. Now getting the patched ball into the gun is almost reasonably easy.
Meanwhile the helpers gather, suggesting .495 balls and thicker patches. I don't get it, how hard is this supposed to be, getting the patched ball down the barrel?
Anyhow, I'm shooting ~6" 50 yard groups, but the sights are terrible with 69 year old eyes. But I think I should be getting 3" or better 50 yard groups. No?
The work of getting the ball in the gun is taking its toll.
There certainly is a difference between BP and Pyrodex, the BP has a definite crack, pyrodex more of a push.
I'm going to keep at it, but...
This gun is in just about perfect shape, the barrel seems perfect although it is hard to get the last traces of black fouling out of it.
joe brennan

[lonewolf5347]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a380/lonewolf5347/P1040007.jpg
Here a picture of my renegade flinter in 54 but getting back to your 50 cal,I would not go with .495 ball think I would look at the patch material and the lube you are useing.I also have a 50 cal. flinter t/c and use .490 hornady RB a wad under the patched ball,my groups will clover leaf all day at the 50 yd target and 2 " from the bench at the 100.
I would try some different ball in.490 I like beeswax and lard for patch lube.
I buy my patch material from walmart (blue and white stripe pillow material)
I us just plain water spit patch between shots or will go 5 shots no need to clean and no need to pound the ball down the barrel.
I would up grade the front sight from the t/c factory to a fiber optic or the same
sght that has a gold bead,you can buy them from track of the wolf and it is a big difference from the plain jane bead post.

[mooman76]

I myself wouldn't go to a bigger ball. I would try a thinner patch. Another thing you might want to try and I don't know why anybody wants to do it this way any more but use a unlubed patch and stick it in your mouth(spit patch) and use that. No lube needed except for the spit. That and a slightly thinner patch should eliminate your problem. If this works you could maybe go back up to a .015 patch.

[versifier]

Two suggestions.

Have you tried MaxiBalls in it yet? That barrel was designed to work well with them and generally does. The bullet/barrel combination was designed for hunting medium to large game. The lock is well able to handle serious target work, though, so if you really have your heart set on rb's for target shooting and just can't get them to work as well as you want with that barrel, you can get a GM drop-in with a proper rb twist that will shoot MOA or better right out of the box, in a number of different calibers. If you go that route, selling your factory barrel will get you much of the cost of the replacement.

T/C makes an excellent peep sight that mounts on the tang and is a heck of a lot easier to see & use than the barrel mounted open notch. You can use it with the aperture in for more precise target work, or remove it for a Ghost Ring style that will let you keep your other eye open and not lose depth perception.

Orange or white nail polish on the front sight post helps in lower or variable light, but as you don't hunt, that might not make much difference to you.

[44man]

I have shot a lot of .500 balls and .010" patches from the TC I had. My hunting ball was .495 and a .015" to .017" patch. For target I went to the .020" patch.
BUT, I only use Young Country lube and if one gets hard to push down, I add more to the next patch and it will clean it up.
One thing I see is guys with a little hammer--tap-tapping on the short starter to start the ball. Hogwash! They are deforming the ball and making it larger! Put the short starter on the ball and SMACK it with your palm, like a karate chop, pull the smack and it will be a no-go. The ball has to be formed right then and there. If it won't go in with a good smack, use a thinner patch. From then on down the bore is a function of a good lube. The lube should also have softened the fouling left in the bore from the first shot. A lot of you think the lube is not important and use the junk sold by TC, etc. Young Country is the best lube I have ever found. Accuracy is a tiny, ragged hole at 50 yd's. I hit targets at 200 meters with my .54 and .535 balls with .022" patches. I also have shot a lot of .540 balls out of it.
I also use a lot of .450 balls in my .45 flinters. I do hunt with .445 balls though.
If you have a gun with shallow rifling, then a smaller ball is called for but if the rifling is the proper .010" deep, the larger ball is correct.
If a ball will not go down, something needs to be corrected!
One other tip, the starter ends must be rounded out to fit the ball and should have a depression for the sprue. One that does not fit will expand the ball.
Years ago, old man Kindig or Dan Kindig would take my barrel and put a small hole gage in the muzzle, mike it and sell me a mold that size. Always worked perfect!

[TCLouis]

shallow compared to most BP barrel makers.

Now to the points, of your problem . . .

I shoot 50-110 grains of powder in my 50 or 54 Renegade barrel with PRBs.
I do have a steel range rod that I use to play on the range, but do not have the fouling levels/PRB seating issues you describe so I will go through what comes to mind for you to try.

If you oil the barrel after cleaning the gun be sure to remove all of the oil possible before firing the gun with BP.
BP and petoleum products do NOT play well together.

For the range using the prelubed patches ( they will dry out if left exposed to the atmosphere and a little water is a VERY GOOD thing:

Try lubing with just a little extra water or TC Bore Butter (woks to leave in the barrel after cleaning also)on the prelubed patches.

Put a cleaning jag on your rod and seat the PRB with a slightly dampened patch on the cleaning jag. WATCH TO SEE THAT IT DOES NOT GET SUCKED BACK INTO THE BARREL JUST AS YOU CLEAR THE MUZZLE. One can run it up and down the barrel several times after the ball is fully seated.

I see nothing about a short starter in this post. That may well help getting the PRB started down the barrel.

Different sized balls and different patch thickness may help the grouping but you sure dont ant to go to .495 ball untill you get this ball starting issue licked. I may well be the effort starting the ball and getting the gun loadedis affecting your grouping . . . yeah sure I hear you but it is VERY possible that such a thing will affect your shooting. IF your tang is drilled and tapped for it, go to the TC tang apeture sight. It will make one a better aimer and usually better shooter.

Wish you were closer, some internet diagnoses miss the obvious, and some things are easy to demonstrate in person and hard to draw a word picture!


Leave the dry paper towel patches on the table and use them for something else.

[joeb33050]

I have shot a lot of .500 balls and .010" patches from the TC I had. My hunting ball was .495 and a .015" to .017" patch. For target I went to the .020" patch.

(No living human geing could get a .500" rb and a ;101" patch in this gun. Probably not a .495" rb and a .015" patch.)

BUT, I only use Young Country lube and if one gets hard to push down, I add more to the next patch and it will clean it up.
One thing I see is guys with a little hammer--tap-tapping on the short starter to start the ball. Hogwash! They are deforming the ball and making it larger! Put the short starter on the ball and SMACK it with your palm, like a karate chop, pull the smack and it will be a no-go.

(I start the patched ball with a mallet-rubber end. This does NOT deform the ball. With BP the short starter deforms the ball when tapped with the mallet, and NO living human being can whack the short starter and seat the ball without deforming it.
After startinjg it I tap the rod, which fits the ball, and after it's down ~3" I can push it the rest of the way.)


The ball has to be formed right then and there. If it won't go in with a good smack, use a thinner patch. From then on down the bore is a function of a good lube. The lube should also have softened the fouling left in the bore from the first shot. A lot of you think the lube is not important and use the junk sold by TC, etc. Young Country is the best lube I have ever found. Accuracy is a tiny, ragged hole at 50 yd's. I hit targets at 200 meters with my .54 and .535 balls with .022" patches. I also have shot a lot of .540 balls out of it.
I also use a lot of .450 balls in my .45 flinters. I do hunt with .445 balls though.
If you have a gun with shallow rifling, then a smaller ball is called for but if the rifling is the proper .010" deep, the larger ball is correct.
If a ball will not go down, something needs to be corrected!
One other tip, the starter ends must be rounded out to fit the ball and should have a depression for the sprue. One that does not fit will expand the ball.
Years ago, old man Kindig or Dan Kindig would take my barrel and put a small hole gage in the muzzle, mike it and sell me a mold that size. Always worked perfect!

I'll try a thinner patch if I can find one.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Two suggestions.

Have you tried MaxiBalls in it yet?
(No, and I want to. Can I buy some from anyone on this list? I have no lead, can't find any down here. Lots of WW and foundry type, no lead. Anyone want to sell 50 50 caliber maxi balls?)


That barrel was designed to work well with them and generally does. The bullet/barrel combination was designed for hunting medium to large game. The lock is well able to handle serious target work, though, so if you really have your heart set on rb's for target shooting and just can't get them to work as well as you want with that barrel, you can get a GM drop-in with a proper rb twist that will shoot MOA or better right out of the box, in a number of different calibers. If you go that route, selling your factory barrel will get you much of the cost of the replacement.

T/C makes an excellent peep sight that mounts on the tang and is a heck of a lot easier to see & use than the barrel mounted open notch. You can use it with the aperture in for more precise target work, or remove it for a Ghost Ring style that will let you keep your other eye open and not lose depth perception.

(It's obvious to me that I need aperture front and rear sights to have any chance with this gun. I'll search for these, thanks.)

Orange or white nail polish on the front sight post helps in lower or variable light, but as you don't hunt, that might not make much difference to you.

Thanks;
joe b.

[Guido4198]

Joe...
I'm just up the coast near Vero Bch. If you want 50 cal. maxi-balls...gather up all the wheel weights you can, and I'm sure we can work something out in the way of a trade. I have lead and a maxi-mold...but am getting short of WW for my rifle bullets. If you just want to try some Maxi's...email me an address and I'll mail you some.
qcguy4198@yahoo.com
Cheers,
Don

[44man]

TC, you might be right about the rifling but I have to confess that I had one of the first TC hawkin rifles. It had a wonderful barrel and would shoot one hole groups at 50 yd's with 90 gr's of FFG and both the round ball and maxi ball. That gun took a ton of deer but it never really fit me. Stock shape would not let me throw it up and be on target without hunting for the sights. It was also way too long with hunting clothes on. I sold it and built my own.
Since then I have had many of the new ones on the range that friends bring out. None shoot like the old ones, in fact one with the easy load barrel would not stay on a huge target at 50 yd's. My friend sent it back and all they did was tighen the key. Ha---what a laugh! He called them and had to argue like mad with them. They finally replaced the barrel. It took him many months to get this done. Guess what? The new barrel was worse then the first one. We tried everything from .490 to .500 balls, patches from .008 to .022" Every maxi ball and about every other boolit made. Every powder charge ever thought of and many powders from 777 to FFFG, Elephant to Swiss. The bore looked and measured perfect, smooth with no tight spots. We tried every lube I had in the drawer too. I glass bedded it with no results. That rifle still will not shoot and he hung it up.
That really soured me on TC's.
I never did measure the depth of the rifling but it appeared to be OK by looking at it. The crown down in that hole looked OK but I had no way to re-cut it.
Could Joe have one of these lemons? I'm starting to think their barrels have some tremendous stresses in the steel.
He might just have to buy an after market, drop in barrel.
I also had some terrible experiences with my Contender 30-30 barrel That would build up copper enough to make a penny after every shoot. Lead was accurate but took a day to clean out. Had the barrel replaced which was worse. I tried fire lapping and everything else but nothing helped. To make the story short, I will never buy any TC gun again!
I have fired many early Spanish guns with rifling chiseled out by some tiny workers that would shoot like crazy, I would own one of them before a TC!

[versifier]

44man,
You sound like me when someone gets me going on about Taurus products.:-D

I don't have a problem with T/C as a company, quite the opposite, in fact. When I have had trouble with their products, it has always been resolved to my satisfaction, and very quickly.
It is very likely that the barrel in question will do fine with Maxis, and it is certainly the next step to check out. Some T/C m/l barrels will shoot anything reasonably well, some are more picky. The only way to find out is by experimenting. The twist rate is a compromise that favors longer projectiles.

Sabots, although lighter in weight, are longer in profile and may work well with that twist. Bulk sabots are available to load with your own .44 or .45 boolits - I use them and really like them, and they are as accurate as maxis and easier on the shoulder in an afternoon of shooting. You can size the boolits conventionally before putting them into the sabots to insure ease of loading.

I have never worked up loads for T/C traditionals with the newer QLA counterbored barrels, but the few inlines I have tried with it weren't bad.
It's funny how certain people seem to have problems dealing with T/C. They have always bent over backwards for me. I suspect it may be a matter of attitude. You can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar.

[lonewolf5347]

I was speaking to a good source about t/c barrel from the older day,he states douglas use to make barrel for t/c and the easy way to see if you are one of the early barrel is to check the underside near the wedge pin dovetail and you will see a W stamped with a circle around it,how true is the statement just passing on the info;
I have 2 flinter from t/c one a hawkens with 5 digits serial number made from the middle 70's and a renegade flinter (kit gun again 5 digit serial number) both barrels are tack driver with heavy charges of goex3F
I just pick up a NOS 45 cal. t/c flinter barrel again 5 digit serial number from a guy who purchase it in the early 80's and never got to use it.
I also did purchase a flinter barrel made in the late 90's with the QLA have to say did never ever get this barel to shoot any great groups.
I did forget to mention 2 of my barrel do have the W stamped on the underside and come from the 70's production

[joeb33050]

Joe...
I'm just up the coast near Vero Bch. If you want 50 cal. maxi-balls...gather up all the wheel weights you can, and I'm sure we can work something out in the way of a trade. I have lead and a maxi-mold...but am getting short of WW for my rifle bullets. If you just want to try some Maxi's...email me an address and I'll mail you some.
qcguy4198@yahoo.com
Cheers,
Don
Don;
I don't have trouble finding WW down here, but don't want to mail WW. I do have a lot of foundry type that's so hard the bullets ring. This would harden WW or lead. I'd be happy to trade this for 50 maxi balls, or buy them-I don't think less than 50 is much of a test. If they work, I'd have to find some lead.
Thanks;
joe b.

[joeb33050]

shallow compared to most BP barrel makers.

Now to the points, of your problem . . .

I shoot 50-110 grains of powder in my 50 or 54 Renegade barrel

(I shot 70 then 60 grains of 3f, could the barrel be dirty because I don't shoot enough powder? I can't imagine 100 grains, this thing is barking now!)

with PRBs.
I do have a steel range rod that I use to play on the range, but do not have the fouling levels/PRB seating issues you describe so I will go through what comes to mind for you to try.

If you oil the barrel after cleaning the gun be sure to remove all of the oil possible before firing the gun with BP.
BP and petoleum products do NOT play well together.

(following advice here I do not use any petroleum based products. Pam for cleaning, then bore butter.)

For the range using the prelubed patches ( they will dry out if left exposed to the atmosphere and a little water is a VERY GOOD thing:

Try lubing with just a little extra water or TC Bore Butter (woks to leave in the barrel after cleaning also)on the prelubed patches.

Put a cleaning jag on your rod and seat the PRB with a slightly dampened patch on the cleaning jag. WATCH TO SEE THAT IT DOES NOT GET SUCKED BACK INTO THE BARREL JUST AS YOU CLEAR THE MUZZLE. One can run it up and down the barrel several times after the ball is fully seated.

(I don't understand this. I can't push the ball down with a cleaning jag, can I? Do I use the jag after the ball is seated?)

I see nothing about a short starter in this post. That may well help getting the PRB started down the barrel.

(My short starter makes a dent in the ball when I tap it in, and I can't push it in, and I weigh as much as a Datsun. This with 3F, not much problem with 70 pyrodex. I wish I could buy a 50 caliber RB short starter, other calibers as well.)

Different sized balls and different patch thickness may help the grouping but you sure dont ant to go to .495 ball untill you get this ball starting issue licked. I may well be the effort starting the ball and getting the gun loadedis affecting your grouping . . . yeah sure I hear you but it is VERY possible that such a thing will affect your shooting.

(I have 2 fake hips, and shooting ~40 balls is a work out that it takes me a day and a hlf to recover from. And, I ride my bike 17 miles most mornings, so yes, this is a lot of work.)


IF your tang is drilled and tapped for it, go to the TC tang apeture sight. It will make one a better aimer and usually better shooter.

Wish you were closer, some internet diagnoses miss the obvious, and some things are easy to demonstrate in person and hard to draw a word picture!


Leave the dry paper towel patches on the table and use them for something else.

Thanks;
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Two suggestions.

Have you tried MaxiBalls in it yet? That barrel was designed to work well with them and generally does. The bullet/barrel combination was designed for hunting medium to large game. The lock is well able to handle serious target work, though, so if you really have your heart set on rb's for target shooting and just can't get them to work as well as you want with that barrel, you can get a GM drop-in with a proper rb twist that will shoot MOA or better right out of the box, in a number of different calibers.

(I'm thinking about a new barrel with a fast twist for lead grooved bullets sans patch. I bought the Renegade on the advice of folks here, but really want a long range ML gun, I understand the TC product = lock and stock quality is good, that the barrels vary. I'd like to learn with RBs and patches. )


If you go that route, selling your factory barrel will get you much of the cost of the replacement.

T/C makes an excellent peep sight that mounts on the tang and is a heck of a lot easier to see & use than the barrel mounted open notch. You can use it with the aperture in for more precise target work, or remove it for a Ghost Ring style that will let you keep your other eye open and not lose depth perception.

Orange or white nail polish on the front sight post helps in lower or variable light, but as you don't hunt, that might not make much difference to you.
Thanks;
joe brennan
Are you near Conway? Our daughter writes for the Union Leader, Nancy Foster. We're quite proud of her.

[versifier]

I'm in Conway. I am familiar with Nancy's work. You ought to be proud of her, she's a very good writer. Does she shoot? [smilie=1:

[44man]

I never had a problem dealing with TC myself but my friend would get off the phone with them cussing them out. He called from work and I overheard him. He was pleasant to them but they gave him such a rash of s%#$ that he could not hold his temper after hanging up. They just didn't want to replace his barrel until he called them about 4 times. I still wonder if they actually did! It cost him money and he has nothing to show for it. I should have marked the first barrel somewhere so we would know.
There seems to be a vast difference from one TC gun to another. My friend has a contender in 7 TCU and it is super accurate. I can hit pop cans from Creedmore at 200 meters with it. Others just stink. I wonder about their inlines and if the same problem crops up. With my luck, I would get another lemon so I won't take a chance.

[PatMarlin]

I just checked my Hawken. 6 digit serial number and a "W". It's a shooter.

Don't know what year it is, as I bought it used, but I'm suspecting the 80's.

Ditto on the TC peep.

Every manufacturer has problems. On Taurus- My 454 Raging Bull's throats are dead on .454, and the barrel dead on .452. It is now full broke in and does not foul a bit of copper after 100 rounds shot today. Lead fouling cleans out instantly, and it shoots cloverleafs at 50.

Barrel is smooth as silk, and so is the action. Certainly a well made firearm, but this is from a company that also has made some junk so go figure.

[floodgate]

My 4-digit T/C Hawken .50 flinter (#5499) does not have the circled "W"; I'll have to dig out the matching percusser (#5050!!!) and check it out too. The earlier one has the single-screw forend cap and flush lockplate screw escutcheons; the flintlock has the two-screw forend cap and the raised escutcheons - less than 500 nos. apart! Both work just fine, though I haven't pushed them for accuracy.

floodgate

[lonewolf5347]

early t/c m/l had 2 wood screws that held the tang in ,then about the early 80's they started with the front tang screw that went threw the trigger guard.I have the 2 wood screws on all my t/c from renegade to hawkens all flinters.

[PatMarlin]

Mine has 2 wood screws on the tang. Wonder what year it is, or with T/C maybe parts is parts.. :mrgreen:

The wood on mine is near AAA. Was perfect til I dropped it.. :roll:

[Boz330]

Pat, you really can't enjoy them till they get the first ding. After that you don't worry so much about dinging them.:roll:

I had one of the early 54 Renegades, had a 4 digit SN. With the 1-48 twist it would shoot Maxi-balls ok for hunting, which is what I bought it for, but I never had any luck with RBs or even the REALs.
That 425gr Maxi went through a deer like you know what through a goose. I actually had 2 lined up one day and was tempted to see if I could get both but didn't need that much meat.:drinks:

Bob

[NickSS]

I have put thousands of patched round balls through 50 and 54 caliber barreles and have never had much trouble loading any of them. I generally use a spit patch when target shooting (I always have spit with me) and have fired my rifles over 100 rounds without cleaning over a two or three day period of time. However, When hunting I alway use a regular lube. I tried a lot of different ones over the years but the one I use most is just plain melted crisco. I dip the patches and set them on way paper to dry. I can generally get five or six rounds off before they get hard to load but I never shoot that much when hunting. I see a lot of guys who do not know how to load a patched ball struggle trying to push the ball down the barrel. If you want to use that technique get a brass range rod with a handle on it. Personnally I use a short starter to get the ball in the barrel. One good whak with my hand and it is started. Insert the ram rod and hold it about six inches from the end of the barrel raise it and plung it down hard on the ball. Repeat two or three times and the ball will be down on the powder in short order without straining your mussles. My experience is that I get all shots into one ragged hole at 50 yards and into around 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards. As I do lots of buckskinning I generally use 50 gr of FFFG powder out to 50 yards and go to 80 gr for longer shots. If they have a 200 yard target I use 110 gr of the same powder and aim high. Use hot water and soap to clean the bore. After wipping it dry I give it a good dose of WD 40 and run a dry patch to take out the excess. The WD saturated patch is excellent for wipping down your metal of the barrel and lock. If you have trouble loading the rifle using this technique there is something wrong with the barrel. Perhaps its like a TC White mountain carbine I bought several years ago that someone got all pitted by not cleaning it before I got it. Even after lapping the bore it was harder to load and fouled quicker so I sold it to someone else to deal with (I did tell him of the problem_.

[PatMarlin]

That's the way TC manual says to load em'. I never did any other way.

I love the shot guns- one's a 20ga and the other 12. Something about having one rifle to get all of your game like the smoothbore, with BP is really cool.

The 20 I have is a bastardised Lyman Deerstalker, with a TC smoothbore barrel. Someone spent some time, checkered the stock, and bedded it. I put one of those TC peep's on it, and it is one nice handling hunting rifle. Showing promiss in accuracy too, but I need more work with it. Prolly paid to much... $200, but I think it's worth it.

I don't have much time shooting BP, but I own three of them. 1 50 cal Hawken and 2 shot guns. What's the advantage or school of thought on using fffg?

[44man]

For all of the years I have messed with these guns, it was always stated that anything over .40 cal should use FFG because of pressure issues. Still lots of old guns out there that FFFG might be too hot in.

[versifier]

I don't know. I've played with both in .50 & .54 and I don't think you really have to worry about pressure problems with similar charges of ffG vs fffG. As long as it's not cocking the hammer! Accuracy goes all to hell long before the pressure gets into the cautionary range. Mostly I just use Pyrodex RS now as it's so much easier to find - closest shop that sells bp is an hour away.

[montana_charlie]

.490 round balls, bought.
Might be interesting to check the hardness of those store-bought bullets.

I once attended a 'rendevous shoot' which lasted for three days. On the second day I fired in a contest where a five-man team shot at a bunch of clay pigeons, hanging by their edges against a backstop. The team that broke 'em all in the shortest time won. This was done at fifty yards with no 'furniture'. You just stood, sat, or layed out in the grass and fired away.

Our team finished in about eight minutes (came in second) and I fired twenty-three patched balls. Obviously, that didn't leave time for wiping between shots, so it can be done.

When shooting from the bench, and wiping between shots, I always ran a bronze brush in and out once, then shook the 'crumbs' out with the muzzle down.
CM

PS - In defence of the team I was shooting with, I should say...
The clays were hung from two strings that passed through drilled holes in the rim. Two of our clays had one string cut by a bullet, and they ended up hanging 'edge on' to us.

We burned a lot of powder (and time) trying to break those two.
CM

[44man]

I learned a long time ago to shoot slow, hit every clay with each shot and you can beat the guys loading and shooting like mad. Ten clays with ten shots is a whole lot better then ten with 20 shots.
Even with a .535 ball and .020" patch, I have run over 200 shots in a day without having to wipe the bore when shooting silhouettes. Always took first or second place. Carried off a ton of groceries.

[joeb33050]

I measured the "Traditions" .490" balls at .4925"-.4945", and some .490" cast balls a guy at the range gave me at .488"-.491".
The TC patches I've been using say .018" , my mike says .016".
The Renegade barrel bore measures .500", groove .510", with a caliper.
I've been trying to get a .4925"-.4945" ball with a .016"/.018" patch in the .500" bore, and it ain't easy.
Ned Roberts suggests ball diameter + 1 patch thickness = bore diameter. Then I need a .0055"-.0075" patch with the Traditions balls.
I went to the Sally Ann today and got a cotton sheet that measures .0082"-.009" thick. I'll make lubed patches with this today, shoot tomorrow. I'm hoping I can load that Renegade without fear of rupture.

Yesterday I was investigating FFFg and my old Lyman 55 measure. The big front brass numbers are pretty close to tens of grains, means that set all three slides at "5" and it throws 50 grains. Also, the graduations on the black-rear of the gig slide are just about right, set at "50" and get 50 grains.
So I'm getting somewhere!
joe brennan

[floodgate]

joeb:

Yes, the Lyman No.55 still retains the calibrations carried forward from the older No. 5, and its predecessors back into the 1890's, originally in nominal grains of BP. Still wise to check actual weights and volums, though.

Doug

[catboat]

I haven't read all the posts yet, so if this repeats someones' I apologize in advance for redundancy.

I shoot blackpowder flinters in competition up in New England. It is pretty much standard for range use to do a quick wipe after each shot. This is to maintain a constant shooting bore condition, and also for safety (extinguishes any burning embers of powder remaining, so as to not ignite the next powder load coming in).

There are as many formulations of bore solvent/patch lubes as there are shooters. This is what I do, and it works well. I have shot T/C flinters and caplocks in competions, both with factory barrels and with aftermarket Green Mountain round ball twist barrels. System works for all.

My bore cleaner is also my patch lube. It's a pretty standard equal volumetric mixture of drug store hydrogen peroxide (to cut black powder fouling), Murphy's oil soap or generic equivalent (lube and clean), and rubbing alcohol (clean fouling). Some people add a bit a water soluble oil. Some add automotive antifreeze (ie Prestone). If you do, don't dilute it, use it straight. Good for cold weather (freezing conditions-but the rubbing alcohol works too). Ratios aren't critical.

I'll start from the end of a match. I clean the bore with a cotton flannel patch (I buy 1-2 yards from a fabric store and cut them with scissors into proper size, ~ 1 x1", 1.25"x1.25" etc (not critical). I use a brass cylindrical grooved jag, not a slotted jag. I also have a home made nylon muzzle protector on the cleaning rod to not wear out the muzzle (accuracy loss). Brass, aluminum or plastic is fine for muzzle guards. I wet the patch and swab the bore. Patch is wet, not dripping wet. If you can easily squeeze liquid out of it, it's too wet. Wetter is ok for end of session cleaning, but only my first couple of patchs are wetter than the others. No real reason behind this, just that too much liquid makes a mess from the touch hole, and drips around the lock area. Even a "pretty wet, not dripping wet" patch will be fine. It will give enough moisture to create a spray from from the touch hole as youpump the patch up and down the bore (cleans the touch hole).

The bore is clean in about 5 damp patches, and then I run 2-3 dry patches down the bore. I then run an oily patch (Marvel Mystery Oil) to protect it. For long term storage I use RIG grease in the bore.

When I start shooting, I run a couple of damp patches, then a dry patch. I shoot. Then I use one damp patch, and go up and down ~ 2x (2 ups, 2 downs). It's not critical. I just feel the bore's resistance. When the fouling is gone, it's smoother. It's not squeaky clean, like the end of day cleaning, but it's perhaps 90-95+ clean. Most important, is being a constant level of clean for each shot. Accuracy = constant conditions.

For loads, I like to use as large a ball and as thick a patch as I can reasonbly load. There is a load of subjectivity in that statement, I know, but it depends on the barrel (groove depth, number of grooves, width of lands and grooves). For a 50 caliber, range match, I like .495 - .500 diameter balls (old mould. Lee used to make a .498 diameter round ball). Patch material is normally ~ 0.015", and in my Green Mountain barrels, I can use .018" thick patch material.

Patch material is 100 pure cotton. I cut strips about 18" long, and about 1.25-1.5" wide. I put a couple of drops in the area the ball will be (uniformly damp, not wet), and place the ball over the muzzle, sprue up. I use a short starter (about 1/4" long) and give it a rap with my hand to set the ball-in strip patching below the muzzle. I then cut off the excess patchin material flush with the muzzle. This forms a perfectly centered patch and ball for accuracy. If I can't short start it with one rap of my hand (not using a hammer), it's probably too tight a combination. I use an intermediate starter about 4-5" long to PUSH the patched ball down the bore a bit further, so as to be able to transition to the ramrod. You then PUSH (not hammer, or beat) the patched ball to seat firmly (compressing powder) on the powder charge.

If I'm shooting in a "woods walk" (from the possibles bag, simulating hunting) I use .490" diameter balls, because it's a balance of ease of loading vs. accuracy. If you have to use a hammer to short start a patched ball, the combination is too tight.

Patching material doesn't have to be expensive. I look for 100% cotton material. The best stuff has a 1:1 warp:weft weave. This means there is on fiber north and south, then one fiber east-west. This means that there are minimal, and uniform stress on the patch when loaded. Many styles of fiber used for patching has non uniform bias. You can tell by pulling the potential patching material diagnonally in two direction. You will notice that it stretches more one direction than the other. You don't want that stuff.

Another thing about patching is the thickness. It's important to measure COMPRESSED thickness. Many types of potential patch material has thickness build into it due to the weaving design. Some .015" thick material will compress down to .007 or less, depending of course on how much you compress it. It may sound funny, but I bring a small caliper with me to the fabric store and test various fabrics with what I consider a reasonable and constant level of compression (again, subjective, but it's sort of "snug" vs "hard").

If you find the right stuff, and it shoots well, go back and buy a couple of yards before it goes. Some people call it "pillow ticking" others call it "pant pocket lining". Some people like the blue striped stuff, but that isn't always 100% cotton, and , it isn't a 1:1 warp:weft weave (has bias). I'm not a fan of it. The stuff I like is neutal colored material that looks like light canvas, that compresses to .015".

Wash and dry the patching material, as it comes with a starch sizing material to aid in manufacturing of clothes. Washing/drying removes sizing/starch, and makes the material soft.

Clean your bore very well. Maybe it's partly pitted, or just has hard fouling left in it. Use the bore cleaner I described earlier to remove the fouling. Higher levels of peroxide and alcohol will get rid of tough fouling, but peroxide is a strong oxidizer. It will make your bore generate a fine rust. The liquid vegetable soap seems to offset the rusting. You can clean with plastic bore brush, or possible brass (NOT stainless. The spirally "tornado" style bore "brushes" don't get into the 90 degree nook and cranny at the base of the rifling land/groove juncture.

Sometimes, if the bore feels rough, after good fouling cleaning, you can wrap some 000 or 0000 steel wook around an old bore brush, and work the ramrod to clean/polish the bore. Do it uniformly. There may be a ring of crud or corrosion down near the breach where the powder charge is located in "loaded" conditions.

I would guess that a reasonable accuracy level for a factory T/C factory barrel (1;48 twist) is ~ 2-3" at 50 yards. I wouldn't be surprised it would be less than 2" at 50 yards, for 5 shots.

For 50 cal round ball, I like fffg (3f) powder (I use Goex, as a have a bunch of it, but the stuff from Graf and sons is good too). I load up to 75 grains of 3f black powder in a 15/16ths" across the flats, and 80-85 grains in a 1" x-flat barrel. Try taking your load up to 75 grains 3f. 2f (ffg) powder doesn't burn as cleanly and accuracy is just a touch worse for me for range work.

Good luck. Also, if you cast, use pure lead, not wheel weight. Wheel weights are harder (figure you know that as this is castboolits.com), and don't deform easily enough for loading (patch, ball,rifling).

Is your muzzle worn? Hurts accuracy.
Also, seat your patched ball with uniform pressure on the powder on each load. You should actually hear/feel it "grunch" when you seat the patched ball on the powder. There was a study done evaluating the amount of pressure used for seating the patched ball on the powder. Accuracy was enhanced with a fair amount (can't remember the value, 10 lbs?). There was some device made that was essentially a stiff spring with a scale that would give you a reading of seating pressure (like a compression fishing weight scale/gauge reading).

Mark you ramrod with a mark (magic marker, piece of tape) on your ramrod with the ramrod all the way down the barrel (no powder) and mark it at the muzzle (you and put a file mark on the ramrod for that reference mark). Then, after gun is loaded (ie with 75 grains powder, or whatever you call a "representative load") let the ramrod sit on top of the loaded/seated ball, and mark the ramrod at the point it exits the muzzle. This way, you will hopefully avoid "short seating" the ball on the powder, a no-no for accuracy. If there is a ring of old built up fouling crud at that point, you will encounter resistance and think you are on the powder, and you may not be. You can also place the ramrod on top to the powder charge in the barrel (before patched ball is seated), measure that setting with a muzzle mark on your ramrod. The difference between the powder mark and the seated ball mark should be the ball diameter +one layer of patching, or ~ 0. 50". If you get something like .75" or 1.23", then you know you are stuck on bore crud, and not firmly seated on top of the powder charge.

If I remember correctly, if your serial number has a "K" in it, it means it was built from a kit. If build from a kit, you'll never know who did the work, or what what done to it (bedding, screws, barrel tenons and pressure).

Another thought, since you are having trouble loading, perhaps you are deforming the leading edge of the ball (battering with ramrod? shortstarter? hitting with a hammer?). Try a thinner patch, .010, .012" and a .490 ball (lubed). Don't beat on the ball/starter. Try to PUSH, not HIT, to avoid ball deformation in loading. Also made sure your loading jag is proper diameter to fit the .50 cal ball. If it does not match the curvature of the ball, you will deform the ball, and hurt accuracy.

The first thing you want to do is to get the patched ball to load "one hand rap with short starter" easily ( or PUSH loaded into muzzle and work up/thicker/experiment from there. The factory barrel twist of the T/C barrels are a compromise twist of 1:48". I haven't had much luck loading them hot (heavy loads). You may find 60-65 grains a good/reasonable load. The crack or boom sounds you are hearing are likely a result of a velocity flirting with the sound barrier (~ 1100 fps at sea level) . Go above or below it. Breaking the sound barrier destabilizes projectiles (and jets), causing poor accuracy.

Don't get frustrated. Be methodical. Good luck.

[PatMarlin]

Good info Catboat.

So you can use a smokeless powder measure with black powder? Not with cartridges right?

Spock Explain?

[catboat]

NO! Do not use a conventional smokeless powder measure for black powder.

One, ferrous (iron) materials of conventional smokeless powder measures are at extreme risk for static electricity discharge. The column of black powder would be a bomb. Severe bodily injury, burns, blindness and even death possible!!! Do NOT do this.

Secondly, ferrous materials in a conventional smoklelss powder measure will corrode from the black powder.

Last, as I understand it, the non-ferrous design of the Lee powder measure is not safe to use with black powder as there is great risk of static electricity being generated from plastic parts.

Double check with both Lyman and Lee for their take on using black powder in powder measures.

Measures made of brass are what you are looking for. Consult with the BPCR shooters how they are doing it. I believe Lyman made a version of their model 55 powder measure to use with blackpowder.

I'm a flintlock shooter. I'm either loading a handheld brass powder measure from a can, one shot at a time, or using a powder horn, loading a hand held measure. I have never used a modern style powder (rotating volumtric measure) measure for black powder.


One more safety rule: Always use a powder measure when loading a muzzle loader. NEVER load the gun directly from the main powder reserve (such as the powder horn or one pound canister of powder (black or pyrodex). A left over glowing ember in the bore will ignite the cascading powder and explode the pouring can of powder. You will lose you hand, and possible be blinded.

[PatMarlin]

Well yeah that's what I thought but for the reference to the Lyman 55 above.

The Lyman 55 has brass slides but it's still a steel housing IIRC. I think their BP moldel is the Model 5?

My TC manual has good instructions. That's how I learned. Just followed the recepie.. :mrgreen:

[wills]

There are a couple of theories about static and powder measures.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks2.jpg
http://www.rcbs.com/images/uniflow.jpg
So far I have yet to blow myself up with the RCBS.

[catboat]

Another thought.

You might want to try the Lee Precision REAL (Rifling Engraved At Loading). The 50 cal lighter model is 250 grains. That may work well in the factory T/C 1:48" twist barrel. You need to lube it with a blackpowder lube (ie bore butter, or spg, or make a homebrew of beeswax, olive oil, parrafin wax, neatsfoot oil, type of lube-surf the net for some recipes. You do not use a cloth patch for this bullet.

The moulds are very reasonable, $20,. Use soft lead, not wheel weights if possible. One source:
http://www.grafs.com/casting/448

They are slightly tapered, so they load relatively easily. It's also a different system, which may be different enough to work in your set up. Call T/C or Lee for their thoughts.

[PatMarlin]

There are a couple of theories about static and powder measures.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks2.jpg
http://www.rcbs.com/images/uniflow.jpg
So far I have yet to blow myself up with the RCBS.

I've got that RCBS wills. In fact tha's my favorite measure out of the bunch. Anyone git blown up yet?

[wills]

I haven’t, not yet.

[44man]

Catboat, it is great to read someone that thinks and shoots like I do. I just disagree with the static in powder measures. I've been using one for over 50 years. My current Redding has loaded many, many pounds of black powder. Static will not light off black powder!

[PatMarlin]

But what if that experiment was done in a confined space ala tube etc., etc.?

Could ya get DRT kilt right then?

[versifier]

Some age old "wisdom" dies hard. There was a whole series of those photos with different kinds of powder including black, flake, extruded. I'm still not sure I want to be the one to test it out. :-D
And then there was the one about how microgroove barrels won't shoot cast. :roll:
Lastly, I once made an easy $100 from an idiot who would not believe me when I told him I could put out a lit cigarette in a cup full of gasoline. After he paid me, he asked if it was really gasoline. I handed him a book of matches and told him to light one and drop it in and see for himself. Cost him both his eyebrows, some hair, and a change of underwear. Expensive morning. [smilie=1:

[PatMarlin]

Catboat, it is great to read someone that thinks and shoots like I do. I just disagree with the static in powder measures. I've been using one for over 50 years. My current Redding has loaded many, many pounds of black powder. Static will not light off black powder!


I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

[catboat]

I err on the side of safety.

First, I wrote that I don't use a rotating volumetric powder measure for black powder.

Secondly, I suggested contacting both Lyman and Lee for there input about blackpowder use in their powder measures.

I will admit, my comments about static electricity and black powder are from readings, not actual experience.

The way I look at it, you only have to be wrong once. If I do that, I may be blinded. That's not worth the risk to me. Again, I don't have a need to load from these powder measures.

You have to wonder why Lyman redesigned their model 55 measure. I guess their lawyers saw a risk. See below cut and pasted from Lyman's website:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/scales.htm
************************************************** ********
55 Classic Black Powder Measure

Lyman has redesigned the 55 Powder Measure for both smokeless and black powder. A must for black powder cartridge silhouette and cowboy action shooters. The internal metering bars rotate in a non-sparking brass sleeve. A large non-static aluminum powder reservoir holds a pound of black powder. The unique three-slide adjustment bars are the key to consistent accuracy from small pistol charges to the largest rifle charges with accuracy to a fraction of a grain. Mounts on the bench or directly on a press or powder measure stand and includes a 7/8 x 14 adapter. Model without drop tubes also available.
************************************************** **********

I'm not setting up camp for arguing or defending this point-I again state I don't have direct experience in this application. If it works for you, then that's more experience than I have. We all hope it doesn't become a "one in a million" thing. My biggest concern would be to be safe, or to eliminate that freak chance of the worst case scenario.

For a giggle, email Lyman, RCBS, Redding, Lee if they would endorse using real black powder in their cast iron or plastic powder measures. Curious to what they would say to that.

Be safe. I for one would prefer to keep my eyes, as weak as they are, at the current level of use. It's just not worth the risk. But, mine is zero, as I only use smokelss powders in them.

[PatMarlin]

....and ifn you git blown up like a cartoon, using the new 55 classic will pay in a lawsuit.. :mrgreen:

[Slamfire]

There is a world of difference between static discharge and sparks thrown by steel tools. I think sparks will ignite black powder, at least it did for more'n 200 years worth of flintlocks. [smilie=1:

[PatMarlin]

You must have a PHD or sumpthin' to finally be the one here to bring that one to light.. :mrgreen:

Or nowin' this croud maybe not.. :drinks:

[Dale53]

This should finally answer the question about static and black powder (but it won't).

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

I've been using a conventional powder measure as well as a bronze powder measure for over fifty years with no problem. If static electricity were a problem with black no one would be able to open a steel powder can in the winter:confused: .

Dale53

[Guido4198]

PatMarlin;141956]I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

It turns out that if you put a full 70 gns. of blackpowder in your 45/70 case, it will be pretty much filled... then try to seat a 500 gn. soft lead bullet over it...you will find that the seating operation is putting so much pressure on the powder charge that you will likely deform the bullet. when properly used, a drop tube fills the case in such a manner as to settle the powder to a greater extent than merely pouring into the case from a measure.

[wills]

[QUOTE=PatMarlin;141915]
The Lyman 55 has brass slides but it's still a steel housing IIRC. I think their BP moldel is the Model 5?
QUOTE]

The 55 classichttp://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/images/55classc.jpg

[PatMarlin]

I want one.

[PatMarlin]

PatMarlin;141956]I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

It turns out that if you put a full 70 gns. of blackpowder in your 45/70 case, it will be pretty much filled... then try to seat a 500 gn. soft lead bullet over it...you will find that the seating operation is putting so much pressure on the powder charge that you will likely deform the bullet. when properly used, a drop tube fills the case in such a manner as to settle the powder to a greater extent than merely pouring into the case from a measure.


Thank you for that info Guido.

[44man]

I believe the Lyman BP measure has aluminum for the tube. The rest of the measure is exactly the same as the old ones.
I like the measure to load BPCR because I can throw a charge into the pan and either go to the scale or right to the drop tube.
Pat, the drop tube settles powder so it is lower in the case. You still never compress the powder with a boolit. You use a compression die then seat the boolit to touch the wad only. No pressure on the boolit! Most boolits are hand seated, no sizing. Just need a little flare on the brass.
With a flinchlock, the sparks are not static but tiny pieces of steel raked off the frizzen. The heat generated from the scaping action turns the steel white hot and it can burn through the coating on BP. A failure to fire the pan is when you don't get any steel cut from a dull flint and any little spark is not hot enough, doesn't enter the powder or doesn't have any steel. A flash in the pan is when everything is working and the pan fires but the touch hole is blocked.

[44man]

Some guys just pour the powder in the case, then use some kind of a vibrator to settle the powder before compressing.

[Dale53]

I have shot lots of BPCR Silhouette over a period of fifteen years. I use a turret press (Lyman) with a manual powder measure. I tried both a drop tube (a LONG one) as compared with just dropping it out of a measure (using a compression die in both cases) and found no detectable difference in accuracy. Off the bench, 1" five shot groups at 100 yards with the 40/65 and 45/70 were obtainable. Groups at 500 yards, in good conditions were in the neighborhood of 6-8" (ten shot groups). As Kenny Wasserburger can tell you, conditions play a BIG part of results at the longer ranges.

At any rate, I settled on using a powder measure (no drop tube) and a compression die and I never lost a match because of my load.

Soft bullets (i use 30/1 lead/tin in BPCR) are easily deformed. I am extremely careful to see that my expander stem is .001" smaller than my bullet. After the brass case is expanded, the brass, due to springback, will have .002" tension on the bullet. I find this the "sweet spot" for sufficient resistance for the powder to burn well and not small enough to damage the soft bullet. I consider this VERY important for long term accuracy. I use a LDPE wad of .060" thickness under the bullet. The powder charge is comressed so that the bullet base just touches the wad with no more than .005" compression. THIS is important.

Powder compression was done by loading on the range and adjusting the powder charge upward from no compression and then letting the rifle and load decide how much compression worked most accurately. Just as a for instance, Goex Cartridge Grade required .350" compression. Swiss required no more than .035" compression for best results. Loading on the range really speeds up the operation. I recommend it highly.

However, don't take my word for it, try it yourself and find out what works for YOU.:mrgreen:

Dale53

[joeb33050]

Wednesday I shot Traditions .490" balls with the .0082"-.009" cotton patches covered in Bore Butter. Throw 60 grains of FFFg Goex from a Lyman 55 to a pill bottle, through a funnel into the barrel. Ball on the patch material in the bore, tap the ball in with the rubber end of the mallet. Short starter it in 6" or so, down on the powder with the rod.
It shot pretty well for 5 shots, gradually getting harder and harder to get the ball down on the powder. By the 7th shot I was hammering the short starter, then the rod to get the ball down. The fouling seems to be worst 8"-10" down the barrel.
Back to a damp paper towel patch then a dry one, and loading was again possible. Lots of fiddling but no real progress, with some 1' flyers.
Went to Ft. L. Bass Pro, got some more balls etc and a bottle of 777. I now have Pyrodex RS, Goex FFFg and 777.
I'm getting a lot of help on two forums with this, and find that opinions vary widely. I can't take all the advice, I won't live long enough to try it all.
Bore butter is good/bad
FFFg vs. FFg, Pyrodex is no good, 777 is no good, yes they are good.
One thing I do know is that those who suggest .495" balls and/or thick patches aren't talking about my gun. Getting a .490" ball and a .018" TC bore butter lubed patch in this gun is a chore, and after ~5 shots it's hammer time. No living human being is going to get a .495" ball and .020" patch in this barrel after five shots.
I'm going to try the 777 in a week or so.
I'm still stuck.
Maybe I'll send this barrel to somebody to try, to see if it's me?
Thanks;
joe b.

[wills]

Drop tube discussions
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=640


Powder measures discussion
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611

[Rattus58]

I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?
A drop tube helps maintain consistency in your shooting. Some shooters I have seen will load powder into the volume measure and then tap it till it settles, load some more, and tap again, cleaning off the excess back into a funnel into the powder can.

They will then pour this "tapped" charge into the bore using a drop tube. One benefit of this is that even on a swabbed bore, there is less likely any powder that will stick to the sides of the bore and the pour probably keeps the powder "settled" at the breech. Then a wad is pushed onto the powder then the ball is loaded onto the wad without mashing it.

Aloha... :cool:

[joeb33050]

I ordered a Green Mountain 50 caliber round ball barrel from Track Of The Wolf, yesterday. This is a 32" barrel, the Renegade is 27" as I measure it. Track is less expensive than buying from GM direct. I wonder why.
So, I'll sell the Renegade barrel and hope that the GM barrel solves all the problems.
joe brennan

[twotoescharlie]

ordered one from TOW first of Dec. 06, has been at GR since Jan.03-07, shooting 5-6 inches to right of aiming point @ 50 yds. R/S adjusted as far left as it will go,F/S drifted 1/16 to right, they say nothing is wrong but they are going to send a replacement barrel, go figure.
Now I might be crazy but I ain't stupid. I have been shooting M/L for over 50 years and am pretty well up on the idiosyncresies of muzzle loaders as far loads ball size, patch thickness,precut patches, muzzle cut patches,etc
as I stated on the first page of this subject (i think) try some" moose milk" for patch lube and you won't be bothered with having to wipe the bore every 4-5 shots unless there is something wrong with your barrel.
just a little advice from someone who has been shooting black powder for a long time, take it or leave it, just trying to help, not trying to be a smart A.
I would really like to see you get this rifle up and running. the potential is there.


TTC

[versifier]

TTC,
Sounds like a crown problem. Their finishing process is (or was when I worked for them and ran the machine in the 80's) done on a turret lathe. Three step process: Trim to length with a cutoff tool, Crown with a countersink, Round off the outer edge with a specialized cutter. If the octagonal clamping jig slipped, and/or the countersink loosened in its holder and the result was slightly off center, that would cause the problem. (Also it could be the rear sight mount hole was offcenter, but that would have been very obvious to you if that were the cause.) I would think that it would/should have been obvious to the machine operator as it ought to have made a hell of a lot of noise, but maybe the process is now automated. Just out of curiosity, how big were the off center groups? [smilie=1:

[twotoescharlie]

the groups were ok for 70 year old eyes. 5 shot groups ran from 1 inch to 1 3/4 inch @ 50 yards,depending on loads and patch thickness. I had no complaints with the groups, it was just that they were not hitting where I was aiming.
rear sight was Ok, mounted solid,straight and centered. F/S was also. It was a .58 cal. emailed GM this AM and told them to send me a 54 cal barrel as I would have to until April to get another 58 cal. supposed to be shipped the first of next week.


TTC

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Twotoe, Sounds to me like the bore is not streight in that barrel. Usual procedure, bore blank, check for streight, before milling flats on bbl, streighten,then finish ream and rifle. If the bore curves in the bbl, same as bent bbl, the only way to check is pull the plug and look thru the bbl. Looking from the muzzle it will look good. Hope this makes some scence to you.:coffee:
Nick

[versifier]

GM's black powder barrels get eyeballed after drilling, after reaming, after cleaning, after lubing, then finally inspected and straightened (if needed) after rifling, but before the breech plugs are installed. Then they get d&t'd, dovetailed and finally their polishing and bluing. If the runout is visible to the naked eye, the blank is scrapped immediately after drilling. It's not worth the waste of all that time working on a bad blank.

Unlike with cheezy imports where you get .005" or more tolerance in thread fit, you don't want to remove breech plugs from T/C or GM barrels, it's extremely difficult due to very close tolerances (.001-.002") and almost impossible to accomplish without really screwing up the barrel's flats. The installation wrench looks like an airplane propeller, is 4' long, and installing them even with that much leverage is not an easy job. It's not anything like using a barrel vice and 18" action wrench on a bolt-action reciever. You know it after you've done a day of it. After any fouling has had a chance to work its way into the threads and weld the parts together it just multiplies the difficulty of removal. I have seen the results of several who have done it, but I haven't seen one of them that didn't need a lot of flat filing and rebluing afterward, and even after that, you could tell they'd been Bubba'd. GM stands behind their products, there's no need to consider it.

[joeb33050]

I'm in Conway. I am familiar with Nancy's work. You ought to be proud of her, she's a very good writer. Does she shoot? [smilie=1:

We are proud of her, she used to shoot-never was really interested, and now has other things, like 3 kids, husband and writing, to keep her busy.
Thanks for the kind words;
joe brennan(waiting for that brown truck)

[joeb33050]

The 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel came yesterday. It took about 4 hours to get it in the gun today.
The thing on the barrel with the rectangular hole for the wedge woul;dn't go in the hole. On the stock, the screws that hold the plates on that the wedge goes through were too long, came into the hole for the square thing. Took well over an hour to figure out the problem, snipped off the screw points in 2 minutes.
Next the piece of steel screwed to the bottom of the barrel that holds the rod was too long by 3/32" or so, so filing and trying for a long while fixed that.
The cleaning/loading rod sticks out 1/2" before the muzzle, I haven't investigated yet.
I bought a bottle of neatsfoot oil and another of Murphy's oil soap this morning, thank God for REAL hardware stores! When I can find some of that ticking material I'll make patches with moose milk. There are no sewing stores in the keys, that I can find.
Shooting next Wed.
Thanks for the recipe;
joe brennan

[joeb33050]

I've shot the Green Mountain 50 caliber new barrel twice now. It loads MUCH easier than the TC or CVA barrels with .490 balls and .017" TC patches.
Much more accurate, with holes touching at 50 yards. But. Last Wednesday it got harder and harder to load, GOEX FFFg, 80 grains, until I got a ball stuck ~a foot down the barrel. Would NOT go down, a friend blew it out with a compressed CO2 device.
I think the powder sticks to the side of the barrel and the ball/patch get wedged in there. On the powder.
I bought a BRASS CRAFT 29 1/2" faucet connector, a 1/4" plastic tube with a ball thing on the end, at Home Depot. Drilled the ball out for my smaller funnel and I've got a thing to pour powder into the bottom of the barrel.
I bought 2 yards of pillow ticking ~.017" at Wal Mart for $8.06, and bottles of Murphy's Oil Soap and Neatsfoot Oil at the Hardware store. Cut a strip of cloth ~1 1/2" wide by 8" long, mixed Moose Goo and got the strip well lubed. I find it difficult to perfectly center the round TC patches, and hope that using the strip of patch material and cutting it flush with the barrel end will work better.
I'll shoot it again Wednsday, hope that this powder dropper thing fixes the problem.
Now the questions:
Where can I buy aperture sights for the Renegade-I have lots of trouble with the open sights?
Where can I buy nylon or nynex 50 cal brushes threaded 10-?? or 8-32? The brass brushes are lo0ose in 1-2 cleanings.

Thanks for all the help;'
joe b.

[waksupi]

If you are using pre lubed patches, they are probably fouling the bore.
Don't worry about a ball being perfectly centered on a patch. As long as the patch is between the ball and barrel all around, you are good to go.

[PatMarlin]

I bought my peep sight here, and I really like it. Price has gone up some:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000307194

Take out the aperature and it makes a great ghost ring.

[versifier]

You can order the T/C aperture sights for the Renegade direct from T/C or from Midway, Brownells, etc. Williams also makes a sight for it, available same sources.

I don't use a brush (you're right, they don't fit very well), just the brass jag and a tight patch. The water has got to be HOT. I put the barrel (nipple removed) breech down in a bucket of very hot water, squirt some Black Solve or similar solvent into it, then apply the patch & jag so that it causes a pumping action sucking the hot water up through the barrel and making it flow out at the top around the cleaning rod. This works well for Pyrodex, too.