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piwo
01-04-2007, 08:47 PM
New project rifle: need some help…….

Firstly, I am in awe of the knowledge, and experience that disseminates from this site. Like any discipline, there are those who dabble, those at the radical fringe, and a whole bunch in-between. Life is far more interesting at the radical fringe, though more practical somewhere between, and often with plenty of fulfillment. I like to nuzzle up to the fringe, without actually crossin over:drinks:

This is a foreign world to me. I cast for roundball, but nothing else. I cast for roundball because everyone knows the 1-66 rate of twist in my flintlock is too slow to stabilize a boolit. Now, part of me would like to try a .54 caliber conical projectile, and if it would shoot OK to @100 yards, I’d be very happy. I’m told it won’t, but might have to try myself someday anyway: too stuburn for my own good:roll: But I digress…..

Is there a resource that would adequately describe for me the relationship between the caliber, barrel length, boolit weight and rate of twist? What else did I miss? I like and try to build historical rifles, but there is nothing to prevent me from building one with a little “somethin somethin” under the hood. Perhaps a .45 caliber barrel with the appropriate twist and design to stabilize a boolit with known inherent accuracy. If creative enough, perhaps I could design the means of front and rear site replacement on demand: from primitive, to precision. Of course, width of lands probably would be of importance as well. Since the rifles I love so have LONG barrels, how does this play into the equation: or does it? Will a barrel 20 inches long at a given rate of twist stabilize the same as a barrel of twice that length, given the same twist? Weight of boolit certainly will play a role at a given twist, but will the length force the issue as well?

These are the many questions that float through the vacuum of my cranial cavity. At some point in my life, I knew some of this or parts of it at least. I’m so far removed now I need a refresher course, and some source material. As I finish up a project, I am already thinking of the next. Since nothing is done quickly by me, all I need is the hunk of wood and a barrel: that will keep me VERY busy for a while. But just how will that barrel be configured?

That’s at the heart of my questions.

wills
01-04-2007, 10:12 PM
Greenhill formula?
http://www.z-hat.com/twistrate.htm

shooter575
01-04-2007, 10:42 PM
Willis,that link will download but not work for me.
I have found that conicals will work just fine in a slower twist M/L .As a matter of fact the Britts in the tower and Springfield armory agree with me also. :-P Many millions of Enfield and Springfield rifled muskets were made with 1:72 or 1:78 twist for use with conicals ie minnes. I like a bit faster for shorter range work.I have a 1:54,1:56 and a 1:66 in .58 that have never seen a roundball
PIWO If your M/L cant read maybe they will work OK

piwo
01-05-2007, 12:33 AM
I too tried to get the link to work, but after downloading, it wouldn't work :(

Well, maybe I will try buying a mold.. I've seen a few 54 caliber minie molds at either 300 or 380 grains. So now I"m looking to solve two equations. For the existing rifle, do you recommend longer/heavier, or shorter/lighter.

And I guess until I can find the reference material to explain, I'm still looking for answers for "the next" rifle project.

Wills: does this site work for you??

mooman76
01-05-2007, 12:40 AM
By the way it's not bullet weight that affect flight it is is bullet length and the bigger diameter the bullet the less twist it needs.

toecutter
01-05-2007, 09:39 AM
There is another formula out there I found a while ago that was put out by sierra (the bulletsmiths) that took velocity into account. It also had other factors you could plug in that would look at the specific gravity (greenhill was written for conical rifle bullets composed of copper/lead not pure lead, pure copper etc).

piwo
01-05-2007, 05:34 PM
Ok, so I couldn't get the calculator to work, but did find another at http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/twistrate.htm (http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/twistrate.htm)

I found a Lee Precision "REAL" boollit mold for a .54 caliber rifle in both 300 and 380 grain boollits. Since the twist is so slow, short boollits are in order, and these were the shortest I could find. Turns out, their 300 grainer is .609 in length and out of a 1-66 twist rifle; it should stabilize at 1551 fps. This will be no problem to accomplish, so I ordered one and will see what happens. According to the calculator, I would need 2422fps to stabilize the 380 grainer which is .761 length.:(

So, I have a plan to play with my existing rifle, but would still be interested in recommendations for the "new project" when it comes about. Since I would be ordering a custom barrel, I could have it configured to any specification I want, so I am open to suggestions or configurations that are known to shoot cast boollits in a given caliber well. Seems 45cal is a quite popular caliber here, but these seem to be cartridge rifles. Then again, long distance rifles were shot as front stuffers as well, so this would be the place to go for the suggestions: Number of, width of lands, groove depth, so forth. Caliber is relatively unimportant: The wide spectrum of calibers used would fit any number of rifles I’d like to build.

What say you??

Willbird
01-05-2007, 08:41 PM
Are you building a muzzle loader ?? or a breech loader ??

38/55 is a great caliber back from when bullets were mostly all lead :-)........The problem with some 45's is by the time you get the bullet going fast enough to shoot well, it kicks too much to be fun :-)

Green Mountian makes barrels that come 35" long

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/catalog.aspx?catid=35RoundBPCRBarrelBlanks

Bill

piwo
01-06-2007, 12:33 AM
Are you building a muzzle loader ?? or a breech loader ??
Bill
I build muzzleloaders... Wouldn't know where to start with anything else....

I just don't know what the specs are for boollit shooting BP muzzleloading barrels as I've no experience with them. If I'm going to drop a couple hundred bucks on a barrel, why not have it configured in such a manner that has the potential of shooting some nice groups with quality boollits?

Willbird
01-06-2007, 07:51 AM
I suspect Green MTN may have an idea or two on how to make a ML bbl that will shoot :-).

Bill

piwo
01-06-2007, 02:19 PM
Oh, I’m sure they’ve built one or two over the years…LOL I just like hearing from the end users:-D

shooter575
01-07-2007, 12:39 AM
PIWO, I just remembered that RCBS makes minne mould that is adjustable for length.North/south Hodgen. It comes in .50,.52 and .54 dia. I have one of their .58 Hodgen moulds[non adj] and it shoots well in both 1:54 and a 1:66 twist.
I know Midsouth has them listed

versifier
01-07-2007, 01:49 AM
Try also some T/C MaxiBalls and MaxiHunters, and whatever else you can get your hands on. You never know until you try them out. I have found individual barrels that would shoot acceptably with balls or slugs that their twist rates would indicate were not optimum for them, and do fine with the "proper" ones they were designed for as well. I have also found individual barrels that would shoot only with those appropriate to their twists, and the occasional one that patterned everything like a shotgun.
You really can't go wrong with a GM barrel, but you do have to know what you want before you get it. My GM drop-in rb twist .54 barrel is MOA with prb's, sabots, and MaxiBalls @ 100yds. (10 shot groups). The T/C .54 cal barrel it replaced was not as fond of prb's and would do 3-4" @ 100, but it would keep Maxis in 2.5" all day. I am primarily a hunter, though the more I get into cast, the more target shooting I find myself doing. Especially since when I bring the old Renegade to the range with the GM barrel on it, it will outshoot most of the cf rifles there. :-D

piwo
01-07-2007, 11:55 AM
Good stuff guys. I'm intrigued with the RCBS mold for "adjustable length". That might be worth buying just to see how this was accomplished even if it doesn't work out! Going to look for it today online.

With my current rifle, I'm looking for better consistency but with hunting in mind. On my friend’s farm, I sit about 10 yards into the woods at a dry creek bed, and essentially hunt the creek bed. I pass on deer that present broadside 100-140 yard shots in the field to my right all the time. Sitting, with shooting sticks at the ready, and let them pass because the inconsistency the rifle's had at this range. I just thought if I could shoot a heavier, more aerodynamic boollit, at moderate velocity that was more consistent, it would add to my hunting enjoyment. Plus, I believe what Townsend Whelen said about "only accurate rifles are interesting"....:-D

georgeld
02-01-2007, 04:33 AM
Piwo:
Am glad you discovered the REAL bullets on your own. I was going to suggest it.
So you're ahead of the game already.

I've got a little 5" .45 with a slow twist of somekind for RB's.
It's not a bad shooter but, when I discovered REAL's and SWC's would outshoot balls that's what I've gone to shooting most of the time in it.

Can't hit anything, but, at 100yds I can put them ALL thru a 4' sq target frame offhand with anywhere between 20 and 40gr FFg.

Those pistol bullets are pretty short in length for the dia. Might be an idea you can try.

I have a .54 cal CVA 32" twist and shoot 300gr REALs.

One day being alone at the range I got the steel targets out and set them at 25yd increments clear out to 200yd Ram.
Proceded to the knock them over every shot from the bags clear out to the 175yds.

That 200yd Ram was a booger to hit. Believe it took six shots of 110gr FFg before I hit it the first time. Then three more for the second hit. I was just trying to learn the gun and load that day as I was new to bp.

When I checked the Ram, there were two half dollar sized lead disks that showed it still had more than enough power to flatten HARD cast slugs.

But, anything over 175yds is too far for this combination. Maybe you can use this info.

9.3X62AL
02-01-2007, 09:43 AM
Next week at the Burrito Shoot we'll be doing muzzle loaders, so I might try conicals in the 1-66" twist of my drop-in barrel (old series TC Hawken) just for grins. The accuracy of the PRB in this rifle and a couple others REALLY put the hook in me, although my stock barrel (1:48") did pretty well with conicals. My goal has been with the PRB's to find a good load and set primitive sights on this barrel that look right where the barrel shoots......another of those roundtuit type projects.

Boz330
02-01-2007, 10:24 AM
PIWO,
You might look up the twist rate on the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle and look at that for a ML barrel. It throws a 500gr slug out to a 1000yds accurately. I have shot one at 300yrds and it is amazing. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable shooting at a deer at that distance with a good rest and accurate measured distance. There is no reason why it wouldn't work at closer ranges in a different configuration traditional rifle.
A buddy of mine had good luck with that 300gr REAL out of a Hawkin with a 1-66 twist deep cut Bill Large barrel. Dropped a cow elk in her tracks at 85yds. He had to patch the very bottom of the boolit to get it to seal good. It exited the muzzle at 1700+fps with a 130gr of Goex 2F. The recoil was substantial though with that pointy butt plate.

Bob

leftiye
02-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Piwo, It's not just the weight/ length and all of that that makes the minies fly well, it's mostly the hollow base. They'll fly well in a 66 twist, and anything that's faster twist is just gravy. At some faster twist a flat base bullet starts to stabilize. A short, stubby 500 grain flatbase conical will stablilze well out of a 48" twist in a .58. Ted

piwo
02-05-2007, 08:56 PM
PIWO,
You might look up the twist rate on the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle and look at that for a ML barrel. It throws a 500gr slug out to a 1000yds accurately. I have shot one at 300yrds and it is amazing. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable shooting at a deer at that distance with a good rest and accurate measured distance. There is no reason why it wouldn't work at closer ranges in a different configuration traditional rifle.

I'll do a little research on the Pedersoli configuration. I'm afraid I'll end up with a rifle not suitable for hunting, which is my passion. However, a 10 or 11 lb rifle that would not be horrific to shoot capable of throwing such a large chunk of lead accurately would be a treasure. Yes, there are a number of traditional designs to pick from, one could be a Jaeger. Thick stocked, heavy barreled, perhaps that would add some weight and absorb recoil from hurling a heavy projectile at a decent velocity.


A buddy of mine had good luck with that 300gr REAL out of a Hawkin with a 1-66 twist deep cut Bill Large barrel. Dropped a cow elk in her tracks at 85yds. He had to patch the very bottom of the boolit to get it to seal good. It exited the muzzle at 1700+fps with a 130gr of Goex 2F. The recoil was substantial though with that pointy butt plate.
Bob I shot the 300 grain REAL yesterday at the range, and was getting 1600 fps with 100gr fffg. Used a card wad on powder, a felt wad on that (lightly lubed), and the bullet on the felt wad. Accuracy at 50 yds was encouraging, but only hit the target backstop 1 time out of four :( Very high winds, but could be stability of the bullet because of my pounding it into the barrel, too stiff a lube on an arctic day, or high winds, or a combination of all the above:???: Recoil was only moderate, about like shooting a .243 with a t-shirt on. I"ve been shooting 130-150 fffg, so this was really nice, with decent velocity. Now if I could only hit something past 100yds...


Piwo, It's not just the weight/ length and all of that that makes the minies fly well, it's mostly the hollow base. They'll fly well in a 66 twist, and anything that's faster twist is just gravy. At some faster twist a flat base bullet starts to stabilize. A short, stubby 500 grain flatbase conical will stablilze well out of a 48" twist in a .58. Ted

That is encouraging and something I want to try. I just hope not all the hollow based bullets are as difficult to get started in this rifle. The first two inches of barrel require use of a rubber hammer with the 300 REAL.

Thanks for the info, suggestions and encouragement. I'm either gonna find something that shoots, or find a new barrel and then retrofit (boy, would that be a difficult proposition with my swamped barrel
:twisted:)

Cheers guys! :drinks:

Boz330
02-06-2007, 12:14 PM
The company is out of business now, but one of the best ML rifles that I have shot was the Gonic. It was an inline but I shot a 4in 3 shot group at 200 with it and a scope. The thing shot a 50 cal lead bullet that wasn't all that hard to load. I think it was around 485gr. I don't remember the twist but could probably find out. Point is that if you were going to start from scratch you could build a traditional looking rifle for slugs that would shoot minute of deer. The Gibbs rifles count on slug up to engage the rifling, but you have to clean after each shot.

Bob

piwo
02-06-2007, 12:35 PM
The company is out of business now, but one of the best ML rifles that I have shot was the Gonic. It was an inline but I shot a 4in 3 shot group at 200 with it and a scope. The thing shot a 50 cal lead bullet that wasn't all that hard to load. I think it was around 485gr. I don't remember the twist but could probably find out. Point is that if you were going to start from scratch you could build a traditional looking rifle for slugs that would shoot minute of deer. The Gibbs rifles count on slug up to engage the rifling, but you have to clean after each shot.
Bob

Bob,
Can you tell me what's out there for HB bullets in these calibers? When I hear hallow base I imeadiately think minnie, but this isn't so is it? Do these hallow based bullets act like a minnie, flaring out to seal the barrel? I'm guessing they have to since how else could you get a muzzleloader to shoot 1000yds? Is there a large selection of bullets that are hallow based that perform like that?

StrawHat
02-08-2007, 12:23 AM
PIWO

Somewhere on the web is an article or site about a Canadian who in the search for an accurate load for his musket ended up by paper patching his minies.

It worked for him.

I tried googling but found everything but that site.

When I find it I will post it.

Also had something to do with a Pedersoli double he got.

Good luck

leftiye
02-08-2007, 02:06 AM
Piwo, If, as you say, you wouldn't be adverse to something maybe not 100% traditional, you can actually make muzzleloaders out of modern blanks (they actually brown well too). I've got a .45-120 frontloader made out of a 45-70 barrel with 1 in 22 twist. As the name says, it shoots a 500 grain conical ahead of 120 grs of 2F ( about 1400 fps). Made the mold by making a form drill out of a twist drill, no lube grooves (lube the bore after loading with a swab). Boolits are pure lead sized about .448, they go in with thumb only, all the way down,and do not slide around once seated. THAT has some ballistic coeffifient! (as in- reach out and touch & etc.). This setup makes about 30,000 psi believe it or not. Your huge loads of 3F really startle me, by the way. I've bulged one .58 barrel (not a musket either!) with the 120 grs. of 2F load behind a 500 gr minie.

Something you might find interesting is what I call a hydraulic gas seal. I made a punch that cuts .45 cal. wads out of 1/4" Alcan feltan Bluestreaks. I soak them in melted Natural lube 1000, and put one under the bullet. When ignited, the pressure pushes the lube into the rear of the grooves behind the bullet long enough for the bullet to obturate without any gas cutting.

uscra112
02-13-2007, 03:31 AM
PIWO - you need to get holt of two books by the immortal Ned Roberts - one is "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle", and the other is "The Breech-Loading Single Shot Rifle".

In the middle and late 19th century, target shooters were heaving 300 to 500 grain boolits from hand-made muzzleloaders, with accuracy that we would envy today. How about 1.5" groups at 40 rods, which is about 220 yards? Or that these guys considered 500 yards to be "midrange"!

Those books will tell you all about the men who did it, and how they did it, in detail. Ned was born at a time that allowed him to know some of these men personally, and so gained his knowledge first-hand.

The information is priceless. It will keep you busy for years.

piwo
02-15-2007, 08:00 PM
PIWO - you need to get holt of two books by the immortal Ned Roberts - one is "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle", and the other is "The Breech-Loading Single Shot Rifle".
I actually own The Muzzle loading cap lock rifle" by Roberts, but haven't read it yet. Got it for $2 at an estate sale. I'll be sure to crack it open this weekend!


... How about 1.5" groups at 40 rods, which is about 220 yards? Or that these guys considered 500 yards to be "midrange"! And how! And if I could build such a rifle that could be reasonably carried in the field, I will!


Strawhat wrote:
Somewhere on the web is an article or site about a Canadian who in the search for an accurate load for his musket ended up by paper patching his minies.I think this must be it. I found it a few days ago. This is why I ordered the Lee .533 minnie mold!

http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/


Leftiye wrote:
Piwo, If, as you say, you wouldn't be adverse to something maybe not 100% traditional, you can actually make muzzleloaders out of modern blanks (they actually brown well too).... You and I are going to chat about this sometime in some detail... As I said, I've built traditional rifles inside and out, and am not opposed to building a wolf in sheep's clothing! This sounds quite interesting.


As for the loads and pressures, Not sure how to answer that. When I proofed the barrel after building it, it got about 160 grains of 2F with two balls in the barrel and held together fine. Don't build pretty guns, but guess I build em strong..LOL You probably wouldn't want to hear the story of when I double charged 135 grains of ffg and shot it at the range. :shock:Turned every single head on the 60 bench range and my teeth hurt for a few hours.:-D On the flint, the weakest link I believe is the touch hole. If excess, it will fail, or show leakage. It holds together with the stiff loads, though I have begun to back down. My life long TMJ problem just isn't holding up to the big "thunk"...:cry: But I certainly will not let that stop me from trying something!

Thanks for the good imput guys, this is what I was hoping for. Gonna do some research, and make a plan....:drinks:

Boz330
02-16-2007, 10:42 AM
A buddy and I were shooting a couple of TC Renegades one afternoon and he accidentally put 200gr of 2F behind a 425gr Maxi. I was spotting for him and commented on how loud that shot was. When I looked over at him he was layed out flat. He was shooting from a sitting position and it just layed him down. He was also mumbling something about, that really hurt.

PIWO, You might be better off going for a cap lock instead of a flinter in a slug gun. The flash hole might be a major weak point with those kind of loads. On the Pedersoli Gibbs rifles they use a platinum nipple because the standard ones only last about 50 shots or so before they are eroded and kick the hammer back from preasure blow back.

Bob

piwo
02-16-2007, 12:12 PM
boz,
I was fortunate to have had 200gr less bullet to push, with the extra 75gr of powder I had on your buddy’s feat. It was thunder that I can assure you!:Fire: Maybe my 10lb rifle absorbed more recoil then his TC Renegade. I’ve no desire to fire 270grains of powder through anything again unless it’s on wheels. :-D

You are right about the touchhole being the weakest link, and I did visit pedersoli's site a week or two ago and read about their specs, and on another rifle on another site that used oversized teeth on the threads so as to hold the pressures of the charge. I've no intention of shooting back up into the 130-150gr range, but even 120 with a much heavier bullet would likely produce like pressures.

Your points are good ones, and certainly one's to be cognizant of. I'm no fan of cap locks (simply preference, no "hatin") and would prefer not to use them, but practicality may dictate otherwise.

ARKANSAS PACKRAT
02-17-2007, 09:12 AM
PIWO, the problem with touchholes is that for best (fastest) ignition the passage needs to be as short and large as possible, but that leads to too much pressure loss. Keep the flashhole depth to a minimun and moniter the size of the hole as it burns out, it takes a lot of shots to burn one out with "field loads" ampco (berrilium copper) will last longer than s/s. The pressure out the touchhole will cut steel after a while, and blast carbon into you if you get in the way (I have a BP tattoo in my rt hand).
As for the thread size, all i've seen or used have been fine threads, the exception is on old guns when they did not cut fine threads, soft forged iron did not take fine threads, it tends to tear out. A machenist could probably explain thread strength of fine v course threads, my understanding is that fine is stronger for a given diameter.
Hope this helps,Nick

:castmine:

piwo
02-17-2007, 12:25 PM
Hope this helps,Nick


Nice explanation in the post, thanks for that perspective!

Mk42gunner
03-02-2007, 10:09 PM
PIWO, For your hunting rifle, you might look into a Whitworth. 45 caliber 20" twist I believe. I see no reason you couldn't put together a flintlock with such a barrel.

Robert

uscra112
03-03-2007, 11:10 PM
PIWO - Two Dollars for that book! You are one lucky SOG - I had to pay $45 for mine and it took me a long time to find it!

Paper patching a Minie - there's a thought. The last years of serious ML target shooting, they were paper patching, with false muzzles to be sure, but it made for consistancy and of course no leading. Paul Matthews would approve!

I think on the old guns they may have used coarse threads because they couldn't make a really good fine thread tap. Remember that the old time ML smiths usually had to make their taps themselves, out of old files that they reforged, filed-up by hand, and then re-hardened. Although it is generally accepted in modern engineering that bolting into aluminum does better with coarse threads, so maybe they were on to something after all.

NSP64
03-04-2007, 09:59 PM
PIWO was wondering how the project was coming? I am new to site but have been entertaining thoughts of a project gun myself using a converted .50 BMG barrel.

piwo
03-06-2007, 12:24 AM
PIWO, For your hunting rifle, you might look into a Whitworth. 45 caliber 20" twist I believe. I see no reason you couldn't put together a flintlock with such a barrel.

Robert
I wonder where one would find a "whitworth" barrel? Apparently, they are a bit different, as are the bullets themselves. An interesting idea, along with the Gibbs... food for serious thought. Where to get a barrel made as a "whitworth, and the appropriate mold?

I've shot a few of the paper patched bullets, with no great result. Mostly, just so/so. I've been shooting mini's cast with dental lead, which in all reality, may be harder then practical. They certainly are not pure lead and I haven't shot any made of pure lead yet. I do have about 7lbs of plumbers lead and hope to cast some with it this week.

I've not begun this project, just getting ideas. I like several of them and are causing me to do some research. keep it coming...