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View Full Version : Sage Rats and CB .22's - advice needed



ejjuls
01-04-2007, 11:15 AM
Greetings all,

Hope everyone had a happy Holiday Season.
I just broke down and ordered a Lyman 55grn RNFP-GC mold for my .223 Handi-Rifle. My plan is to create a nice mild but deadly sage rat load for squirrel shooting this spring. I have a very limited supply of linotype on hand and I don't want to use it unless I have too. I was thinking of casting straight wheel weights and test for accuracy, then do a HTWW test and if necessary move on to the linotype.

I want to hold the velocity no more than 2K +/-. Less if I can get a soft slug to work well. I decided to move to the .223 for the challenging critters who have been shot at alot by innaccurate .22lr shooters. My main concern in a CB is ricochet problems or not enough upset to cleanly kill on the spot.

For those who have played with the .22 CB's I am willing to glean from you any info you can offer. Would you mess with a soft slug or would you move straight to a harder slug for the frag characteristics at high velocity?

Appreciate any help anyone can provide!
Thanks a Million!
Eric

felix
01-04-2007, 11:50 AM
22's do not have to be excessively hard to shoot well in the slower twists. The steeper twists require a little more strength in the alloy at the same velocity. Keep that in mind. Now, what I do is make the hardest boolits possible so they will completely fragment when they hit somthing at 1800-2000 fps. I like to have a good bit of antimony in the mix, and enough tin to make the boolit cast and shoot well at 2400. Test the loads while shooting water at an angle that would be typical for your application. ... felix

Larry Gibson
01-04-2007, 11:54 AM
I've shot a bajillion sage rats in eastern Oregon and posted this on the military site; it applies here. I don't know the twist of your barrel but the RPM it generates will effect the velocity level you can go to and maintain accuracy. I used older wheel weights back then and they were just air cooled. WWs were harder than WWs these days so you might just water quench them out of the mould. I also size .225 and use Javelina lube with Hornady GCs.

Some years ago I shot quite a few 225415s over 18 gr of H4895 out of an AR15 and several M16A1s along with a 181 series Mini 14. They were as accurate as M193 ammo and the velocity was in the 1900 fps range. Functioning was flawless. The AR/M16s had 1-12" twists and the Mini 14 a 1-10" twist. In the slower twist AR the 16 gr of H4198 did as well accuracy wise with a velocity of 2200 fps. That load wasn't accurate in the Mini 14s faster twist though so I stuck with the H4895 load mostly.

The 18/H4895 loas shoots just as well in my current Colt Comp AR with 1-9" twist but isn't accurate in 1-7" twist M16A2s. It also is my "go to" cast load for squirrels in my older M700V .223 with 1-12 twist and the Savage Comp .223 with 1-9" twist. They shoot 1 to 1.5 " MOA all day long with that load.

Larry Gibson

carpetman
01-04-2007, 02:13 PM
ejjuls--How ever many sage rats Larry Gibson shot in Eastern Oregon,I shot that many plus one more jackrabbits.(first liar doesn't have a chance--so anyone topping this I also shot one more than they did). I used the 58 grain RCBS mold which is a gas check type. I shot them both with and without the gas check--couldn't tell a difference. I used wheel weights-water dropped. Don't guess I got any upset---they'd have to still be alive to be upset and straight down and dead was the reaction. This was with both .222 and 22-250. My .223 refuses to shoot cast. I'd guess velocity was 2000-2200. Thats a lot heavier bullet and a much higher velocity than .22lr and that's how I'd compare the results. Friend did use a Ruger 10-22 .22lr and got very good results,but with more limited range.

45nut
01-04-2007, 02:59 PM
Hey Larry, Whats the preferred ammo for 1-8 twist ar's available? Looking to make a case buy.. There are hundreds of terms and I am out of the loop on AR's feeding.
I just picked up a Bushmaster Predator varmint style AR.

Larry Gibson
01-04-2007, 10:40 PM
Hey Larry, Whats the preferred ammo for 1-8 twist ar's available? Looking to make a case buy.. There are hundreds of terms and I am out of the loop on AR's feeding.
I just picked up a Bushmaster Predator varmint style AR.

I bet Carpetman can't even count to a bajillion! And ya can't have one more jack rabbit 'cause the huntin' ain't done! Guess I don't have a chance do I....oh well.

45nut; My prefered bullet for the AR and Mini14 is the Speer 52 gr HP but it doesn't fair well in some 1-9" twist barrels let alone a 1-8". They are totally awesome in 1-10, 12 and 14" twist barrels though. I picked up a couple thousand Sierra ballistic tipped 55 gr bullets last year from Midway and they do fine in my 1-9" AR and Savage Comp also a 1-9". I'm loading them over H335 and they're running 3200+ fps. I've been told the Black Hills ammo loaded with the Hornady 60 gr V-max does really well in the 1-7 twist ARs on varmints so they ought to do well with the 1-8" twist also. I've not used 'em myself but the info comes from a couple reputable HP shooters who know accuracy and terminal performance. I haven't shot any store bought .223 except military for many years. The last I bought was some Winchester 64 gr PPs for a special youth deer hunt a friends young daughter was going on. She used a AR flat top with a 4x Leupold mounted. With the 1-9" twist zero accuracy was right at 1.5 MOA with her (12 years old) shootin' off a bench. She collected a real nice doe at 100+ yards. I've since loaded quite a few of the 64 gr PPs (over a load of AA2460 - 2960 fps) for my own use and find them to be fine bullets for the fast twist ARs.

Larry Gibson

Vly
01-04-2007, 11:02 PM
45Nut - The info in the post by Larry is spot on. I have a RRA with a 1-8" Wilson barrel. The Winchester 64gr PP is an excellent bullet - especially for the price. The next step up from there is the Sierra 69gr HPBT. This bullet does very well in the 1-8" barrel and is quite effective on tissue, even though it is marketed as a target bullet. Federal loads this bullet in their Gold Medal line. This is the load the local FBI branch uses. I know this because I have acquired quite a bit of the empty brass and packaging from their range.

Scrounger
01-04-2007, 11:15 PM
Larry, you might beat Ray on Sage Rats but you don't want to challenge him with sheep...

9.3X62AL
01-05-2007, 01:52 AM
I'm just getting under way with Version 2.0 of the "22 Centerfire With Castings" program--for a similar reason to ejjuls.

I have had great luck with a referral/samples made by Uncle Ray (the carpet installing cat fancier) to RCBS 95 grain 6mm boolits in the 243. At 1700 FPS or so, they whack the daylights outta ground squirrels and jackrabbits. I can't help thinking that a 223 with a corresponding boolit would be just as effective, so I'm trying the castings out in a Ruger 223 bolter that REALLY shoots the j-words well.

I'm another fan of the 69 grain .224" Matchkings, but never thought to try them on deer. Interesting info, that. They really tighten groups in my Mini-14 (1-9"). I should try them in the bolter--but haven't yet. The 55 Nosler BalTips did so well, I just stopped searching.

Larry Gibson
01-05-2007, 11:09 AM
Larry, you might beat Ray on Sage Rats but you don't want to challenge him with sheep...

Well if we're talking hunting sheep then I might stand a chance with my Big Horn below. Scores 188 5/8ths SCI. However, if we're talking other activities with sheep you're probably right, some just go ugly early and I like the pretty ones! LOLs

Larry Gibson

carpetman
01-05-2007, 01:16 PM
Jacketed bullets have made an entry into the thread so I'll throw out my experience with jacketed in .22's. I have had good luck with the Winchester bulk packed 55 grainers. They are rather cheap bullets. I also use the 100 grain Winchester bulk packed in .243. Everybody that has read any at all on the various boards knows that a .243 is marginal at best on deer and if used a Premium bullet is a must. I knew that---read it many times. Didn't know if deer had read it,so tried them and sure enough the deer hadn't read it. Most were with the .243 and I can only think of about 3 with .22's. I know my grandson shot one with a .222.

ejjuls
01-08-2007, 10:19 AM
Hey guys,

Thanks for the info and thoughts. My molds should be here today after work. I should be casting tomorrow night. I will be trying a straight WW alloy and then a heat treated WW alloy. I'll test for group and then on water jugs for the heck of it. Darn squirrels are sleeping under the snow this time of year!

As far as jacketed .22's on deer - I have used 3 different bullets out of my AR-15. I vote hands down on two for me that worked well. Nosler J-4 69 grain HPBT Match and a Barnes -X 53grn. The Nosler's just plain shoot well and the do a beautiful job on deer too. The .223 is not my preferred caliber but it does serve well in a pinch.

Any who -

I'll be casting and testing here before too long. If anyone is interested in what I find - drop me a message, etc.

Happy Shooting - Thanks for the thoughts and help!
Eric

mike in co
01-08-2007, 12:37 PM
back to the off topic portion of this thread......

52/53 should shoot in a 1/8 twist.....
tons of high power shooters swear by them....
if yours won't shoot them check your twist...and then try
aa2200/2230/2520

mike

ejjuls
01-21-2007, 02:52 PM
Howdy all,

My initial test revealed some very surprising results. I cast up about 100 bullets with a Lyman #2 alloy equiv. I heat treated 50 in the oven for an hour and quenched in cold water. Sized all to .225" and lubed with Felix lube.
I loaded them all over 7.5 grains of Unique and a CCI 450 primer (I had preped cases laying around) in LC_89 cases.


I shot the rounds at about 35 yds. in knee deep snow at a nice paper target from a rest off my hood. Not scientific but it worked. It was too cold to drag out the chrono.
Results:
Straight #2 alloy - golf ball group (48 round aggregate)
Heat Treated # 2 alloy - 2' circle (48 round aggregate)

I was amazed to say the least that the heat treated performed so poorly. I noticed on the clean target a dark black ring around each of the bullet holes. on the #2alloy loads the bullet holes were clean and not dirty - as if cut with a high speed condom round.

Due to the groups I am testing some other powders now - today will be a H110 test. It's warm enough and still enough so I might drag out the chrono to record more than just group size.

Cheers!
Eric

9.3X62AL
01-21-2007, 03:07 PM
Ejjuls--

My 223 cast work--last time attempted--gave some decent and encouraging results with the NEI design I have--it's a spire-pointed Loverin look-alike with GC. Since that time--the wind has blown every day I think about shooting it, or it slips my mind as dotage weaves its way in my direction. If the breezes moderate down to gale force locally, I'll take the 223 with me for the Burrito Massacree this Tuesday. Thanks for the re-inspiration, sir.

lurch
01-21-2007, 10:46 PM
Don't know if it might make a difference or not, and I'm just tossing out an idea, so here goes.

From the post, it sounds like the heat treated boolits were sized after heat treating. Could it be that the sizing operation work softened the surface of the boolits? Did the untreated boolits get sized pretty much right after casting? Was there some time between this sizing & the shooting (dates on the posts suggest there might have been)? IF so, maybe the untreated boolits were actually harder on the surface than the treated due to a little age hardening? IF so, could the Unique have given the slug a big enough kick in the pants that it was stripping on the rifling some? That's some fairly presumptuous if's on my part, but...

Is this remotely possible or am I off frolicking in the daisy patch? I'm not a rifle cast bullet shooter - yet - but had always heard/thought that if you were going to heat treat a boolit, you sized it first, heat treated it and then lubed it later in a larger die. I presumed that surface softening was the reason. One thing about this that doesn't seem to hold too much water in my mind is the depth that the work softening occurs. I doesn't seem to me like the depth would be enough to make too much difference if the boolits were only reduced in size a thou or so.

ejjuls
01-22-2007, 11:20 AM
lurch,

Thanks for the input. I cast all the slugs night before last and sized the next morning. I went ahead and did the heat treating just before sizing in morning. This mold is throwing some small slugs and the size die barely does more than true them up (.225)

I did a test last year with a friends Lee Hardness tester. This I found interesting.
I cast up a handful of 405 grn .459 Lee RNFP-HB slugs for my 45/70 in straight WW. Heat treated 1/2 and left the other half alone. The heat treated came out at 25 bhn immediately after treating. 2 days later they were around 30-32bhn. (This is an hour cook in the oven at 475 deg F.) Interestingly I noticed that the Lee method requires you to file off a flat on the bullet to test the hardness. I filed small bits and then decided to try 1/2 the bullet in small increments testing as I went. The results were always almost identical (as far as my eye could tell). I tested the nost of the bullet and the 1/2 way point of the bullet and didn't see any serious differences in the hardness. Granted this test was done very shortly after treating them. If this doesn't mess with the heat treating why would sizing?

The results of my h110 test?

Total bust. the lowest charge tried (13.7grn) from the Lyman manual proved the best with a 6" group at 40 paces rested on sandbags. I took the test block all the way up to 18 grains in 5 shot groups - they just kept gettin' bigger!

Cleaned the gun and lit' off some condom bullets and subsequently fired a 5 shot 3 holer smaller than a dime.

Conclusion:
Not there yet with a cast bullet. Next test - Unique again with varying charges. Dive into the Lee Manual and find that darned cast formula again for some other powders to play with. Once I find the tightest powder then I'll play with size diameters and hardness again. Heck I might have to go with a fatter slug!

Any other suggestions????? Favorite loads to try?????
Thanks!

Happy shootin' everyone!
Eric

georgewxxx
01-22-2007, 04:55 PM
ejulls,

Had the opportunity to buy several sizing dies last year. two were .22 cal. I had a .224 & .225 I'd been using for quite some time. The new ones were .222 & .223. I did some testing in two different .218 Bee's and a .222 heavy barreled Savage. I took 5 different cast bullets and made up rounds of exact powder charges etc. and fired 5 rounds each of the 4 different sizes of boolits. Found out on average, the .222 shot best, the .224 came in second, .223 & .225 about the same. These were all fired through a chrony using wheelweights. Velocity was between 2400fps & 2640fps. I see no reason to go the extra step of trying to quenching them, I've got better things to do with my free time. Just because some BOOK-READER says they need to be that hard too shoot accurate, try it yourself and see. That's what this cast boolit game is all about anyway...testing!!!....Geo

Bullshop
01-22-2007, 06:04 PM
geo
Did you happen to mike boolits from those dies to see if they were doing what they said they were?
The results dont make sence to me.
Never trust the # stamped on a die.
BIC/BS

georgewxxx
01-23-2007, 11:02 AM
That's the first thing I do after casting. No there's no mistake the .222 auctuall sizes .2224. the others are close to what they're stamped to be. the springback after sizing varies on the alloy used. I tried that with straight lino, and wheelweights. because it's only a .222 instead of a .45 or 50 cal, it can't change too much. ...geo

ejjuls
01-23-2007, 11:09 AM
Hey guys,

My Layman mold throws a varying (not really) slug at .225/.226 from #2 Equiv alloy. The .226 mmt comes from across the part line from time to time, otherwise a steady .225.

My Lyman size die spits out a solid .225 bullet all the way around. On a few slugs I actually bumped them significantly seating the check - after smashing them through the size die they come out with little or no lube grooves and a steady .225. These I cull out obviously - mainly did it as a test on a few of them.

I think I have a good concentric bullet. maybe/maybe not - I supose I could hit them with my dial indicator and get really nit picky - I just don't see the need.

My thoughts now - after studying the books is to try and slow these slugs down and test more on the low end. The Lyman manual states best accuracy is around 2-2.3K fps. Maybe this rifle likes the speed around 1500-1800 fps or so? Worth a shot to see how it behaves. From my H110 test I found exactly this to be true - the bottom end was able to stay on paper - everything else acted like a shotgun with an imp cyl choke at 50yds.

Does anyone have any fav powders and loads for the very light end?
I need to pick up some Red Dot, any other powder selections suggested?

Thanks
Eric

Scrounger
01-23-2007, 01:20 PM
Probably not the speed that's the pressure, more likely too high a pressure for the alloy. Try these loads, they should be just over 2K in velocity:

12 grains IMR 4227
15 grains of WW 1680
19 grains of 4895

corvette8n
01-23-2007, 05:47 PM
Don't know about .223 but 9 of my 11 squirel kills were one shot with a Gamo .17 cal pellet rifle (1000fps) One required three shots(don't ask) and the only one to get away was shot too far back(my fault). I am 6 for 6 on chipmunks.

Scrounger
01-23-2007, 05:54 PM
Don't know about .223 but 9 of my 11 squirel kills were one shot with a Gamo .17 cal pellet rifle (1000fps) One required three shots(don't ask) and the only one to get away was shot too far back(my fault). I am 6 for 6 on chipmunks.

I'm impressed but for sheer fortitude, you can't beat CarpetMan hunting rattlers with his BB gun.

MTWeatherman
01-24-2007, 07:09 PM
Based on my experience, follow Scroungers advice and try 19gr of 4895 with that Lyman bullet...should put you in the ballpark at least for a decent load.

A quick look at my remaining gas checks shows I’ve fired over 700 rounds since early last fall in working up loads for a CZ-527 in .223. Its all been with two bullets, the Lyman 225415 (which I suspect is the one you have) and the Bator from Midsouth. I’ve used ACWW, Oven treated WW, and Lino in each bullet as well as trying them with and without checks.

For powders, I’ve tried Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, 2400, IMR 4227, IMR 4198, and H4895. Unfortunately, following my usual luck I have a large grooved rifle (.2249) and a minimally sized Lyman mould (.2246 at the parting line with WW and .2250 with Lino). I had to hone another mould and sizing die so have used bullets sized from .2246 (keyholed) up to .2260.

This is the most temperamental rifle/cartridge combination I’ve worked with. I’ve been able to get about a 1 inch 25 yard group with all powders...a very few powder/bullet combinations will deliver .5 inch...and I’ve found two that will do at or near MOA at the 25 yd. range I work up loads at. I've kept track of the .5 inch or better shooters and lumped the remainder into the "don't try anymore" category. With most powders.. especially the fast ones... depart very little from these loads and they start to open up significantly...changing the bullet and alloy will do the same. However, hit the right combination and its a shooter.

From my experience...obviously yours may be different.
The superb loads:
1. Exactly 19gr. H4895 with the Lyman heat treated 225415..1/4 inch at 25yds...MOA to at least 100. This is the newer mould that yields the 55gr. Chrographed average velocity 2233 fps. ACWW Lyman and a heat treated Bator will do about 0.5 inch.

2. 4.7 grains of Red Dot with an ACWW Bator with no check. About 1/3 inch. Put the check on and groups open up...heat treat it and they are well over 1 inch. Go figure. Anything between 4.3 and 5.0 grs is at .5 inch or less but 4.7 is the "sweet spot). Haven't run it over a Chronograph yet but would estimate about 1600 fps.

Loads that may deserve a second look for a bit more tweaking:
1.Around 10 and 12 grains of IMR 4227 will give .5 inch groups with the heat treated Lyman.
2. 13.5 grains of IMR 4198...about .5 inch (remember...we’re talking .25 yds)...with the heat treated Lyman.
3. About 17 grains of H4895 appears to be another "sweet spot" Loads shrink to a bit less than .5 inch within 0.2 grain of this one. If 19 gr. doesn't work well in your rifle, might give it a try to get closer to that 2k velocity you want.

If you’re using Lyman #3 Cast Manual as a guide for working up loads...start about 15% below their recommended starting and work up. Best accuracy is usually below their recommended level...especially with the faster powders. Although they say 2k-2.3k will offer the best accuracy they should add "with the slower powders". I doubt you'll find that velocity range to be true with the faster pistol and shotgun powders.

ejjuls
01-25-2007, 05:29 PM
MTWeatherman,

Thanks for the input. Based upon what has been offered so far I am loading up a block of IMR-4895 loads to try. I don't know if this is adviseable of not but I am going to run under your suggestion and then over in 0.2 grn increments by a grain or so to see if I can locate a sweet spot with this rifle. I don't have any other of the powders you guys have suggested so IMR-4895 is the candidate.

If I am heading into the danger zone by all means let me know before I shoot the darn things!
Thanks
Eric

MTWeatherman
01-25-2007, 07:09 PM
Totally safe low pressure load with the H4895 as long as you don't drop too low for starting. Would suggest 16gr. as a good starting point.

Hogdon has a 60% rule they use for developing lower velocity loads for jacketed. They use H4895 because of its reputation for uniform ignition at reduced charges. Stated simply, you take 60% of the maximum listed load for H4895 with a given bullet and use that for a load in the 1500-2100 fps range.

Maximum load for a 55 jacketed bullet in the .223 is 26grs H4895. That puts their recommended load at about 16 grains. I tested loads between 16 and 22 grains with the Lyman bullet...bullets began to keyhole over 21 grains.

AZ-Stew
01-26-2007, 12:17 AM
ejjuls,

Here's a load that worked well in my Rem. M-788. It's a 1:12" twist. I developed this load for squirrel hunting with j-bullets (Hornady 50SX) and it's VERY accurate. I use GI cases and CCI BR-2 primers. Powder is SR-7625 (gray can), 6.0 grains. I think you'll find a similar load in the RCBS cast bullet book. I haven't tried it yet with cast bullets, but they're on my list of things to do. I have the mould, I just haven't taken the time to develop the load yet.

Regards,

Stew

44man
01-26-2007, 10:33 AM
I can't resist!!! All of you are wrong! Those sage rats are tough and you need a 50-110. Shoot up in the air and drop that big slug on em, flattens em real purdy.

ejjuls
01-27-2007, 04:46 PM
Ok - I understand the too low for starting problems all to well. Been there done that.

I played around with the Lee manuals reduced load calculator and played with the IMR-4895 data from the manual. The data shows a max charge of 26.0 grains and a min of 23.1 grains. I used the calculator to give me a velocity of 1800 fps which came out to be about 14.0 grains. In my test block I started at 14.5 grains and went to 19.0 grains in 1/2grain increments. If you think 14.5 is too low then I can re-evaluate my data.

Since my experiments with Unique and H110 showed the low end of my tests as better. Not acceptable accuracy but better at staying on paper. As pointed out before I agree that the powders I played with are probably a little too quick. I decided to use 4895 because I have it on hand and that it responds well to reduced loads. Perhaps what I will do is start my test block at the 16.0 grain range and then go up from there - if I don't get acceptable accuracy then I will start down from 16.0 slowly and carefully, watching for problems, etc.

In some of my other calibers I found a filler really tightened up the groups. I was really leary of filler in the .223 due to the small case and the potential of rapid pressure changes with variable changes. I have used a "shot-buffer" in the past on my 7.62x54R rifle with a 170grain lee bullet. The load on this round was with IMR-3031 and another with IMR-4198 both calculated out with the Lee reduced load calculator to be at 2000 fps. Chrono showed then to be about 1950 fps. With either load with filler I can get sub 1/2 in at 50yds repeatable every time. A friend found some plastic fouling from this buffer on his 8mm Mauser load, he was pushing way fast and hard on the powder scale though. With my load I haven't seen any weird pressure changes or any fouling what so ever. From what I recall the buffer isn't made anymore and was made by Winchester? I'll have to ask the guy I got it from - I know it was a discontinued product and it was hard to get for him. I bought a 2 lb bottle of the stuff - probably enough to last the rest of my life and my kids' too.

If I experiment with a filler on this one I will probably try this buffer. It works nice in that you fill te case to the mouth and lightly tap it and then top off the case to the mouth. When you seat the bullet it compresses the bufferjust enough to prevent migration into the powder. I experimented with pulling bullets on several loaded rounds on the 7.62 load that have been bouncing around in my pockets or on the ATV for a season and found ne migration what so ever.

What I am shooting for for this .223 load is a 5-shot group at 50yds at about 1/2in or less. Preferably in the 1/4in range.

Today I am heading out with the 4895 load test. I'll post back with some results - hopefully some pics too if my camera decides to work today!

Thanks
Eric

ejjuls
01-28-2007, 03:02 PM
Howdy all,

Whom ever is interested:

Results from the shoot yesterday were very encouraging.
I did a test with the Lyman 55 grain FPGC bullet from my .223 Rem Handi-Rifle (Ultra Varmint) at 50 yds.

This load actually produced an almost one-holer. The other test loads created a 1.5-3" groups. This is the only one (16grains) that produced a tight group.

Next I will experiment with variations of powder charge around 16.0 grains.
One point to note - below 15 grains produced unburnt powder in the barrel and in the case. This made me pretty nervous about a flash-over or SEE problem.

Hope this helps someone out there!
Thanks
Eric

MTWeatherman
01-28-2007, 04:56 PM
Ejjuls:
Looks like you've found a starting point. I know that you are interested in about 2K for your velocity and would seem you are now operating in that range.

I've kept some of the targets fired over the past month for simple reference...still laying in the back of the pickup so went out and retrieved a couple I fired for load verification after previous workup. I've included one with the Lyman and H4895 and the Bator bullet with Red Dot both showing my final selections for a performance load and a plinker.

Notes on the targets were for my reference, not publication so they're pretty sloppy. Likely can't be read at this resolution well either. The groups are all three shots and fired at 30yds...I use the range's 25 yard range but place my own portable backer on the berm 12-15 feet behind the range's backer... don't see the need to cut apart their backer needlessly.

1st picture is with the Lyman...all H4895.
Top both 19 grs. Left is ACWW, Right is Oven treated...one hole group is just under .25 inches.
Bottom are both heat treated...left is 19.5 grs and right is 20 grs.
Can't explain that flier at 19.5 grs...it was obviously wobbling. Past notes show at least 20 before problem began.
Note third shots in the top left and bottom right are hard to see...they're on the heavy vertical bar.
Note the difference between ACWW and heat treating at 19 grains and how rapidly groups fail above. It's consistent with a previous tests.

Bottom are all with the Bator bullet and Red Dot.
Top...both ACWW without a gas check and 4.3 and 4.7 grains respectively. That 4.7 is right at .25 inches...previous notes indicate about 1/3 inch so I'll conservatively say that is its capability.
Bottom left is a heat treated Bator 4.7 grs with gas check...one shot actually was further down off the paper. Same load as top right...just heat treat and gas check...some difference. Bottom right is 5.0 grains ACWW no check.

I had the best luck with the air cooled Bator at lower velocites and the heat treated Lyman at the higher. Shifted to Bator for the plinking load as a result, however, if you're not satisfied with final results with the H4895, you may want to consider working with the ACWW Lyman in the 4.0-5.0 Red Dot ranges. Air Cooled was better than heat treat with the Lyman at the lower velocites (pressure) also.

I'm done with load development on this one...19 grains H4895 and the heat treated Lyman for performance. ACWW Bator with no check (51 grs.) and 4.7 grains of Red Dot as a plinker...hard to beat it for economy as you don't even need a check.

Good Luck!

TCLouis
01-28-2007, 08:13 PM
Blue Dot . . .

YES, Blue Dot.

Might surprise ya if you have some to try.

Also Unique.

After all, it is . . . UNIQUE!!!!

ejjuls
01-29-2007, 11:05 AM
MTWeatherman,

Thanks for the encouragement and help. Do you have a picture of this Bator bullet? I haven't run across it before. Just curious?

I chose the Lyman due to the FP and the overall look of the bullet. I was going to go with a Saeco 60grainer but I figured for small game the FP was better. I also considered the lighter Lyman 45grainer until I read the reviews on Midway's website. Anyway,

Been doing some thinking about what to do next -
I think I will play with varying powder weights with 4895 to see if I can tighten the group up any. I will go ahead and run a test of oven treated bullets with 4895 too - just in case it helps. If I am not satisfied with it I will switch primers and try that.

Still not good - then I will test Red Dot, IMR-3031, IMR-4198 and as suggested - Blue Dot.

I hope to have a load developed and ready to go before the Squirrely-Bobs start runnin- round'!

From looking at your targets - I wouldn't want to be a little critter in your sights!

Thanks again!
Eric

MTWeatherman
01-30-2007, 12:33 PM
Ejjuls:
You're certainly welcome.

I see the Bator is being discussed in another .223 threat so you may have already seen the link. In the event you haven't, here it is:
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000622BATOR Can't beat the price.

Some think Unique is the most universal powder...my vote is Blue Dot so it was one of the first I tried. Tried Unique also and neither made the 1/2 inch or better at 30 yds test. However, per previous post, now know I was wrong in trying to use the Lyman #3 manual for most starting loads for this rifle. I used it in starting at 7 grains of Unique...and my own estimate in starting at 9.5 of Blue Dot. I well may have had success with more work on both at lower charges so both would be worth a look for you. However, the H4895 showed promise with the first loads tested. Red Dot didn't and took no small amount of work. However, I have about 10 pounds of Red Dot remaining out of a 12 pound keg and don't load shotgun...several lifetimes left at current use so wanted to develop a load for it if possible.

My guess is that the best loads near 2k would be found in the fast rifle and slow pistol and shotgun powder burning rates. That would put 4198, 4227, Blue Dot, 2400 etc. high on the list for testing. In my case, I didn't put a velocity restriction on velocity but 4198 and 4227 did show some promise.

Thanks for the compliment...I'm happy to have come up with a couple of loads that work. However, with most loads in the development stage...a sage rat at 50 yds would have been relatively safe. This was far and away the most difficult rifle/cartridge combo I've worked with for cast bullets. I've used jacketed loads with 4895, BLC-2, and 4198...all do MOA or better at 100yds and its not very finicky about the exact load. I didn't expect the problems I had...its certainly not the rifle. Others on this board seem to have had little problems in developing loads. However, based on my experience, best advice I can give is...it may test your patience but don't give up...odds are you'll find something that works.

ejjuls
02-14-2007, 11:18 AM
For those interested,

I did more testing with the .223 and this lyman 55grn FPGC bullet.
On a whim I tried IMR-3031, CCI mag primer and reduced the charge with the Lee reduced load calculator to get me between 1600fps to 2300fps. This put me testing a block of 50 rnds at 13.5 grains to 18grains in charge weight. I repeated the same test with a heat treated bullet. Rather than use ACWW I treated a batch of #2alloy slugs.

Initially the results were dismal to say the least. I shot the #2 alloy slugs first and couldn't keep them at 1" @ 50yds. After replacing targets and cooling the rifle off well I started on the treated bullets. Every single test group of 5 fired had at least 3 bullets touching at 50 yds. I finally settled on 18grain charge - this produced a cluster of 3 shots in the same ragged hole and two flyers 1/4" high and left by 3/8" or so of the main group (the flyers were one ragged hole). Interesting to note I called the two flyers as I shot and watched the holes appear where my cross hairs were resting. If I were to re-shoot the test and be able to hold still a little better this 5 rnd group would have been one ragged hole.

I finally found sucess! Unfortunately I have to start heat treating a quantity of #2 alloy slugs I have cast up un buckets already. Positive note - sage rat beware I hopefully can reach out there a bit further.

It's early morning here and I didn't want to wake the whole house by taking pictures with the camera being Valentines Day and all. If anyone would like to see the group I would be more than happy to post it.

Happy shooting and thanks everyone for the help and ideas!
Much appreciated!
Eric

ejjuls
02-14-2007, 11:34 AM
I woke the whole house - oops!

Here is the target,

Thanks again!
Eric

HORNET
02-14-2007, 08:46 PM
Eric,
IIRC, Bullshop JR was running about 18.7 gr of 4895 with a small pistol primer and was very happy with the results. I was playing with the .223 before I got distracted chasing tree rats and was getting erratic results with slow powders until I drilled some flash holes out to 0.095 Dia. ( about a 30 percent area increase). Results were much improved consistancy and drastically smaller groups. You might want to try it on a few spare cases.
Felix and Sundog were recommending small pistol primers for Blue Dot or faster. I've got a batch of test loads waiting if it ever gets warm enough and squirrel season ends (end of Feb).
Benching slow loads is somewhat of an artform in itself. Looks to me like you're getting there.