How much difference will powder make?

[bullpen7979]

I am casting for 9mm. I have been experimenting with various sizing dies (.357 and now .358) I have also tried both of those sizes with just a 45/45/10 tumble lube and also pan lubed with barry darr's formula. It seems I get residue in the barrel no matter what size or lube procedure I use. It seems to start about 3/4 of the way down the bbl. and continues sporadically to the end...I have not yet slugged the bbl. (yeah, I know. I need to knuckle down and do it) Just have to believe that 357 or 358 would have to work, statistically speaking.

I did have some measure of success in the accuracy department recently with some .357 boolits that were: 1) tumble lubed 2) pan lubed 3) tumble lubed again. That was with Javelina lube, but it would appear that to get some of that requires that I buy a ton of tiny sticks or a drum. Help on this point would be, well, helpful.

I started using titegroup powder because that's what a local reloading supplier recommended. In perusing the forums, it looks as though a slower burning powder might be a better choice. Clays has been suggested.

I guess my two fold question is, is a spotless (or nigh spotless) barrel an achievable goal? Is it possible that I will never get there? And more immediately, will a slower powder help me out? How specifically does that happen? Slower pressure build up allows boolit to heat up and expand? Is that how it works?

I doubt I will give up casting or reloading. It's a fun process. I chose 9mm because of the relatively low cost, not knowing it was a tough nut to crack. I love my CZ P-01, but I suppose I might be persuaded to switch to a .45 ACP if the leading and residue issues are easier to fix. ...

I am determined to solve the problem, but I guess I just need to know I'm working toward a goal that can actually be reached.

I have the week off, and am looking for a powder recommendation so I can add that to the list of things that are confusing me....

I also know the TC boolit design has been highly successfull...might have to spring for a 2 cav mold and try that....The ones I recently rec'd from a fellow caster here mic'd out at .357. They shot okay, but also left a little residue in bbl.

Maybe that's as good as it gets. I have not come close to surpassing factory ammo for accuracy yet.

[RobS]

If it were me, I would use WSF for a powder; it burns clean even running mid 9mm loads and meters well. Slower powders do in general have lower initial starting pressures which can be easier on the boolit out of the gate so to speak. A quicker powder such as tight group or even clays that you mentioned do have more energy which really kicks the boolit in the ars and can deform the boolit in turn causing leading, degrade in lube function if blow by happens and in the end could very well create accuracy problems. You are right you chose a harder caliber to load for but it isn't an impossible one. Have your ducks in line and it'll work out.

[legi0n]

Titegroup is a great powder for 9mm. I doubt a slower powder would help in such short barrel.
First slug your barrel. Don't be surprised if the groove diameter is closer to 0.357 than to 0.355"
Then use a bullet one thou or two bigger than that.
Shoot a target at 15yds and look for keyholes. If there are any keyholes, your bullet is too soft for the pressure and it is stripping (instead of spinning)

I use a 0.358" 125gr bullet lubed with a homebrew lube and pushed by 5gr Unique. It leads a bit at the groove edges but the bore is such a gem (read nicely smooth) that it comes off right away on brushing.

[casterofboolits]

I have had great success with BlueDot behind an H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB. Accurate #7 is close to BlueDot, but I have done very little development with #7 and cannot confirm it's results in 9mm.

BlueDot has been my "go to" powder for 380, 9mm, and 38 Super since the mid 80's.

[Shiloh]

.358 is the magic number for me and the 9mm. How does it work for you?? I'm using 5.6 gr AA#5
under a LEE 125 gr. RN sized at .358. I haven't clocked them yet, but cycle and lock the slides back on the last round. Max charge is 6.2 for this boolit from the AA Load Book.

Shiloh

[Char-Gar]

Your are burning a combustible solid to push a lead projectile down a barrel. Why would you ever expect a spotless barrel?

[1Shirt]

It is hard to beat Chargers logic!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Floydster]

I have never had any luck with Titegroup and cast bullets--no matter what caliber.
Floydster

[leadman]

Get some Carnube Red or BAC from LARS (White Label), a sponsor here and try this. BAC can be rubbed on the boolit like a crayon easily. Carnuba Red is a little harder to do this, but can be used easily pan lubed. Glen will ship you samples of his lubes if you want.

Your size is probably o.k. but it does not hurt to confirm this by slugging.

I have found the 9mm will lead easily if a marginal lube is used or the boolit size is wrong.

[bullpen7979]

It is hard to beat Chargers logic!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

Thats not logic. I simply dont know what the best possible outcome is.
Can I assume that a clean (read: similar to what it is after shooting fmj) bbl is
In fact, not possible?

[462]

Hmmm... Back when I used to shoot jacketed, I don't remember ever having a clean barrel, afterward. Gun powder is not self-cleaning.

[captaint]

Bullpen - I have burned pounds of Titegroup in the 45ACP and had no problems whatsoever. I think you can eliminate that as a cause of your troubles. When you say fouling in the barrel, are we talking about lead deposits you can see (lumpy specks or streaks) when you look down the barrel?? And when you clean the barrel, does the fouling (lead) come out in little flakes?? One other thing you might try is pulling a boolit after loading and mic it then to see if it is smaller than desired diameter. Sometimes we have this. That can cause troubles with lead left over in the barrel... Stay with it, it ain't majic. One thing at a time. It'll work out. enjoy Mike PS. Sounds like your lube is not the cause of the troubles...

[mdi]

You mentioned "residue". Are you talking about bore leading or gunk left over from burning powder and/or lube?

[Harter66]

I shoot it as cast mine drop at all but .360. I pulled some a while back and found them to be still over 359. They work fine in my HP-9 w/4.0 Unique and Barry Darrs +- . If I step up to 5.0 I've lead stringing from the bbl in 15 rnds,it also makes these cool little edge ridged looking primer dimples.
3.5 Red Dot works nicely too my sample is 1960??and is very dirty. I've also had issues w/LLA gumming up the bbl and chamber .

[jmsj]

A lot of good advise on lubes, powder and sizing but the OP did not post what alloy he was using and how hard he is pushing them. I'm curious that if the lead is soft enough is that might be causing the problem.
jmsj

[Char-Gar]

Thats not logic. I simply dont know what the best possible outcome is.
Can I assume that a clean (read: similar to what it is after shooting fmj) bbl is
In fact, not possible?

The best possible outcome is having each bullet go through the same hole on the target, or as close thereto as possible. The trash and debris in your barrel has no relevance. You are majoring on the minor.

I don't know if that is logic or what, but it is my considered opinion accumulated over 60 years of shooting.

[Harter66]

True, jm.

I have only 1 example in a rifle I can site.
In a 32 rem I achechived no and good groups w/Red Dot up to 1200 fps leading started there,Unique took me to 1400 w/o leading and good groups. 4350 has not yet closed the groups to where I'm happy but,is capable of 1900fps w/o leading . This was w/o any changes other than the above powders and charge wts..

The only pistol I can compare was a 357 that shot RD,Unique and HS-6,blue dot wedged cases tight. My notes were to poor then.

[bullpen7979]

The trash and debris in your barrel has no relevance. You are majoring on the minor.


My understanding was that as trash and debris accumulated, that accuracy would suffer. Perhaps if its just lube and powder residue, that won't affect accuracy as much. I guess I need to know how to differentiate lead residue from powder/lube.

After shooting, and I see the residue in the barrel, I usually can only get it out with the Remington bore cleaner and some copper strand wrapped around the bore brush. 2-3 minutes of scrubbing and about ten patches later, it's pretty well back to square. I don't see anything resembling lead or lead flakes or anything like that. Patches come out pretty well black.

@Chargar, you have been shooting/casting/loading a lot longer than I have, so I'm all about the learning part. I don't know what I don't know, and I'm just aspiring to get it tuned up as well as it can be. It sounds as if the standard in my head is not a realistic one to have.

[RobS]

Bullpen - I have burned pounds of Titegroup in the 45ACP and had no problems whatsoever. I think you can eliminate that as a cause of your troubles. When you say fouling in the barrel, are we talking about lead deposits you can see (lumpy specks or streaks) when you look down the barrel?? And when you clean the barrel, does the fouling (lead) come out in little flakes?? One other thing you might try is pulling a boolit after loading and mic it then to see if it is smaller than desired diameter. Sometimes we have this. That can cause troubles with lead left over in the barrel... Stay with it, it ain't majic. One thing at a time. It'll work out. enjoy Mike PS. Sounds like your lube is not the cause of the troubles...

Great so how does this relate to 9mm? A statement between the two cartridges and using the same powder with equal outcomes??? Have you shot it in a 9mm to compare?

I'm not trying be difficult here but two different scenarios are in fact just that.

[RobS]

My understanding was that as trash and debris accumulated, that accuracy would suffer. Perhaps if its just lube and powder residue, that won't affect accuracy as much. I guess I need to know how to differentiate lead residue from powder/lube.

After shooting, and I see the residue in the barrel, I usually can only get it out with the Remington bore cleaner and some copper strand wrapped around the bore brush. 2-3 minutes of scrubbing and about ten patches later, it's pretty well back to square. Minor fowling from lube and powder can be taken out easily with a few runs down the barrel with a patch or possibly a few strokes with a bore brush and then a patch.I don't see anything resembling lead or lead flakes or anything like that. Patches come out pretty well black. It sounds like you are experiencing leading but then this statement doesn't drive home the leading idea because a leaded barrel requiring 2 to 3 minutes with chore boy will show lead flakes. How many rounds do you run through the gun before cleaning?

@Chargar, you have been shooting/casting/loading a lot longer than I have, so I'm all about the learning part. I don't know what I don't know, and I'm just aspiring to get it tuned up as well as it can be. It sounds as if the standard in my head is not a realistic one to have.

..............

[Char-Gar]

Bullpen.. I choose my words carefully. Powder fouling will have very little effect, if any, on accuracy. Metal fouling, lead and copper/guilding metal will have an effect on accuracy, if it builds up to a certain point.

Proper and regular barrel cleaning will prevent any of this from ever becoming an issue.

The expectation of a spotless barrel after being fired is not only impossible, but not a goal worth pursuit.

I am at a loss to understand why younger shooters have such a fixation with clean burning powders and clean barrels. Somewhere along the way, they have gotten their eye off the ball. Accuracy is the goal we pursue. Clean your guns, wash your hands and pay attention to the target. The target is the thing.

Perhaps, they have been burned due to these over the counter, rock hard, beveled cast bullets with worthless hard wax lubes. They will render a barrel out of service, in short order. It is almost impossible to convince folks these bullets are junk. I have stopped trying as the younger set thinks old timers are just out of step, and need to get with today's program.

[bullpen7979]

I think in retrospect, spotless was a word chosen rather carelessly on my part. I'm fine with pulling a few patches after every range trip. And accuracy is my main thing as well. I just questioned how good it was for the bbl to have to be scrubbed down to get it clean. Not to mention it's a bit of a chore.. my goal was to get to the point where I'm pulling a patch, not scrubbing with Remington bore cleaner everytime I shoot. I don't mind dirty at all. I was just concerned about the kind of dirty I was getting. Should have put some qualifiers in there..my bad, listers...

For the record, WW + 1% tin or so, air cooled, is what I'm shooting. I try to size either the same day or the next day.

Continuing the pursuit of the best possible outcome. Accuracy first without making a major chore for myself later.

[bobthenailer]

I have had excellent results with cast bullets & Tightgroup in every pistol caliber (6)i have used it in except the 9mm & 38 super they seeme to like the med fast to med powder for the best accuracy! and with cast bullets they are more paticuler about what they will shoot well , compaired to the 45 acp and most other handgun calibers with cast bullets.
The 9mm/38 super seem to like TC nose profiles and or the 145 + gr bullets for the best accuracy.

[RobS]

bullpen7979:
have you pulled a bullet after loading to make sure the boolit is coming out of the case at your intended diameter (.357 or .358 depending on what you sized them to). If you haven't, measure the very edge of the base before and after loading to varify.

[turbo1889]

The powders I use in 9x19 are Blue Dot, AA#7, AA#9, LilGun, & 2400. The last three on the list are better suited to guns with longer barrel lengths; obviously that includes carbines but also includes handguns with longer length barrels as well.

Using a good lube containing Canberra with medium hard alloy (your alloy sounds fine to me) and as large of diameter of boolit as will allow the loaded cartridges to chamber I get a shinny clean barrel that looks like a waxed and polished floor littered with a half dozen "mouse turds" from the powder burn that come out with one pass of a dry patch.

I do not use a Lee carbide factory crimp die on my 9x19 loads to do the crimping since it squeezes down the boolits inside the case and makes the whole set-up go to hell rather I use it with the crimp ring removed to do the first step in sizing the body of the cases along with a universal de-priming die since the carbide ring in it is not as small of diameter as the carbide ring in the actual sizing die and doesn't size the case body down as much. I may still use the regular sizing die to size the very top of the brass that holds the boolit with neck tension but often that is not necessary with the larger diameter boolits I use since I get enough neck tension from the carbide ring in the crimp die alone even though it doesn't size the case diameter down as much.