45 problems

[bryonbush]

im having some issues with my cast 45's not chambering correctly in my springer 1911. im using the lee 230's with the round nose. im seating them to the correct depth but do i have to seat these deeper? any secrets you have when dealing with these?

[tomme boy]

What is your crimp diameter?

[geargnasher]

im having some issues with my cast 45's not chambering correctly in my springer 1911. im using the lee 230's with the round nose. Which mold is that? im seating them to the correct depth Are you sure? How do you know?but do i have to seat these deeper? What is your loaded diameter? How much bellmouth are you using? How much throat does your Springfield have?any secrets you have when dealing with these? Nobody's keeping any secrets, the information is for you to discover, and is in any good reloading manual.

Hint: Field strip it and use your barrel's chamber as a go/no go gauge.

Gear

[HeavyMetal]

Gonna agree with Gear on this plus the fact that you added no additional info such as OAL, Dia of the boolit, or dia of the case mouth after seating the boolit.

So many little things can go wrong that, with no other info, a guy just take a WAG which doesn't always work.

Add to the fact that I've heard that Lee's Round nose isn't a good copy of GI ball ( particularly the tumble lube design) and you have a real can of worms to go swimming around in.

Use the barrel as a starting point for OAL and then we can take it from there!

[Shooter6br]

I use a Dillion case gage. I find the round is not always size down enought. I use a Lee I believe crimp die to size down the round i check each round

[Bullwolf]

Some more information would be useful but I will throw all this out there for you and maybe I will get lucky and hit the nail on the head.

When I first started casting 45acp for my 1911, I tried to load Lee TL452-230-2R 230 grain RN Tumble Lube boolits "as cast" without sizing them.

They dropped somewhere around .454 or larger, and they wouldn't fit in my chamber when loaded into cartridge brass. They also left an obvious bulge in the case.

I picked up a Lee .452 sizer (my Colt and my Springfield 1911 barrels slug at .451) and I ran the boolits through that and they would all chamber after sizing down to .452 and taper crimping correctly. The boolits get one application of Alox or 45-45-10 before sizing, and another after sizing, then they are loaded.

If I don't remove the case flare enough using a taper crimp die, I will have problems getting the boolits to chamber, or fit into a case gauge.

I need to taper crimp down to .473 measured at the case mouth, to get the rounds to chamber in my 1911's.

If I want my boolits to chamber 100% reliably in other 1911's, I taper crimp down to .471

I load the Lee TL452-230-2R to an OAL or Over All Cartridge Length of 1.265

That's the same overall length as my old military hardball, according to my digital calipers.

I may be over crimping a bit, but you can check with your barrel to see what your own gun requires to be able to chamber.

I also like to run all my hand loads through a 45acp case check gauge, or a spare 45acp barrel to make sure all my loaded boolits head space correctly, and will chamber.

If you don't have access to a quality measuring tool like a good micrometer, or at least some cheap digital calipers to measure cartridge overall length, you really need to consider purchasing some.

Here are some pictures I took for another thread using the Lee TL452-230- boolits that I cast and loaded.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3864

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3862

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3863

The Lee TL452-230-2R works just fine for me in 45acp in a tumble lube application, just as long as I size it before loading. It feeds well too. There are other higher end molds out there as well for 45, but there is really nothing the matter with the Lee mold for the price it costs.

Maybe some of the information about what works for me will help you out.

- Bullwolf

[emorris]

Bullwolf those are some good lookng rounds. I ordered the same mold for my new 1911 and hopefully it will get here tomorrow. I must ask what powder are you using for your rounds.

[Bullwolf]

My standard 45acp load is 6.0 grains of Hercules/Alliant's Unique behind a 230 grain cast Lee TL452-230-2R boolit. I use CCI #300 large pistol primers, and I load to a Cartridge Overall Length of 1.265

I lube once before sizing my boolits to .452 and then I lube a second time with 45-45-10 or Lee Liquid Alox.

I found it was harder to apply a thin coat using Alox, and it took longer to dry. (even if I helped it along with a hair blow dryer) I prefer to use Recluse's 45-45-10 Mix.

I also use Wolf 18lb recoil springs in my full size Colt, and Springfield 1911's.

My alloy tends to cast pretty close to 230 grains. My bench test boolit weighs in on the scale at 228 grains.

As with any loading endeavor, please don't just start out right at 6.0 grains of Unique.

Begin with a safe starting load and work your way up to 6.0 grains

I would suggest a very conservative starting load somewhere between 5.0 - 5.2 grains of Unique.

For me 6.0 grains was pretty close to where I felt hardball should be.



- Bullwolf.

[bryonbush]

sorry for the lack of info but i now have some that may help. if i read this thing right my OAL is 1.29. at the edge of the case it .474. the boolits are .453 to .455. there is a noticible buldge in some of the cases when the round is complete which i thought was odd. i do chamber check each round before i put them into a box and if they dont fit, i put them through the seating/ crimping dies one more time. i chamber checked every round and yesterday i had 4 out of the 100 give me problems. on the up side though.. i had ZERO leading in the thing.

[gasboffer]

I shoot the Lee 228 1R in Springfield XD45. It won't chamber unless it is seated pretty deep. The lands start pretty abruptly at the front of the chamber, so this bullet has to be seated pretty deep in the case. Looks kinda funny, but feeds every time. Forget about overall length.

[bryonbush]

gasboffer... i must say that your the man if you have managed a way to shoot cast out of an XD without getting horrible ammounts of leading. in my XD40 no matter how much lube, sizing, of little of charge i do, the dang thing leads.

[garym1a2]

I have so much trouble with the Lee 230rnd nose tumble lube type that I changed to their 200SWC.
They did not drop from the mold, they where oversized and to get them to feed in my Kimber 1911 I needed the Lee factory crimp die.

[Floydster]

I am using the Lee 230 gr. TL RN in my Witness Elite Match and I have to seat the bullet to an OAL of 1.262 with a TC of .472. If I run the bullet even a few thousands over the 1.262 OAL I have feeding probs.
I lube with 45/45/10 and size to .452, then add two more very light coats of lube and after 100 rounds I have no leading.
My go to load for this bullet is 4.6 grs. of 231--very accurate and reliable.
Floydster

[gray wolf]

sorry for the lack of info but i now have some that may help. if i read this thing right my OAL is 1.29.Is 1.29 your OAL of the whole round ? That sounds short to me unless I am thinking of the wrong bullet. Someone check me on this. at the edge of the case it .474.If .474 is a little big, .472 is a nice size at the case mouth. .471 is acceptable but at that point you are crimping a little more than you should have to. Try .472. the boolits are .453 to .455. .453 and .455 ? lets pick one and not be all over the place. .452 .4525 should work fine. your bullets may need to be sized to one uniform size.there is a noticible buldge in some of the cases when the round is complete which i thought was odd. I don't think it's odd, as I said your bullets are to fat. .455 is on the fat size. size them .452 and seat them nice and straight.i do chamber check each round before i put them into a box and if they dont fit, i put them through the seating/ crimping dies one more time. i chamber checked every round and yesterday i had 4 out of the 100 give me problems. Your bullets are to fat, lets get that taken care of. Using the sizing die for a post check and fix is A$$ backwards. Size the bullets correctly and use the proper crimp. Have the end of the case measure .472--.471 on the up side though.. i had ZERO leading in the thing. That's nice but not the problem now.

Don't go to using a 18# recoil spring as a fix for your problem, read Band Aid. your pistol was made for a 16# recoil spring and it should work fine as it is. considering it's a full size 1911.
Lets fix the problems and not patch it up, and don't use a Lee factory crimp die.
( not saying you are.)
Keep in mind that just because a round passes the barrel plunk test that does not mean everything is just peachy dandy. It may pass that test and still not feed properly.
If it does pass and still has problems, look at OAL and crimp. The 1911 asks the bullet to jump through a hoop in order to feed. Out of the mag, into the feed ramp, a little dance at the
throated area at the bottom of the barrel, then it hits the top of the chamber, and last into the chamber. ( hey! try that on one foot Eh. ) Just some things to think about.
I guess I should say that 18# recoil springs are used by some folks, If it's because the rounds are very hot or the person is trying to go easy on the pistol frame--
I say perhaps could be-- maybe -- possibly --OK. but remember the more force coming back
equals more force going foreword. In the end not much is gained, and most times like I said it's a Band aid for something else that is wrong.

[geargnasher]

Yup, size your boolits .452 in a cheap, Lee Push-through sizer, the kind that screws into your single-stage press like a reloading die. They cost about fifteen bucks. Lube with LLA before and after sizing. Use just enough crimp to iron out the bellmouth and make the mouth of the case the same diameter as the body where the boolit is seated. It should be a perfect cylinder. Seat your boolits long enough to go in the magazine but still chamber. Headspacing on the first band of the boolit and throat is fine if your magazine will handle ammo that long, otherwise use common sense to find OAL.

Gear

[deymorin]

Whats wrong with a lee factory crimp die?

[243winxb]

Basic bullet casting. Size to .452" or .451" if barrel is tight. Seat bullet deep so it measures .451 right in front of the case mouth on the bullet. Taper crimp to .470" on the case mouth.

[fredj338]

sorry for the lack of info but i now have some that may help. if i read this thing right my OAL is 1.29. at the edge of the case it .474. the boolits are .453 to .455. there is a noticible buldge in some of the cases when the round is complete which i thought was odd. i do chamber check each round before i put them into a box and if they dont fit, i put them through the seating/ crimping dies one more time. i chamber checked every round and yesterday i had 4 out of the 100 give me problems. on the up side though.. i had ZERO leading in the thing.

You OAL is waaaay too long. Where did you get that number? SAAMI max is 1.272" & many guns will need to be around 1.260" for reliable feeding. OAL is very bullet & bbl specific. As already noted, use your bbl as a gage. Case gages do NOT tell you correct OAL. All I shoot out of my XD45 are lead bullets. Leading is minimal.

[gray wolf]

CORRECTION CORRECTION CORRECTION CORRECTION
I stand with what I said But I read your OAL wrong, 1.290 is way to long.
FREDJ338 Is correct


[B]You OAL is waaaay too long. Where did you get that number? SAAMI max is 1.272" & many guns will need to be around 1.260" for reliable feeding. OAL is very bullet & bbl specific. As already noted, use your bbl as a gage. Case gages do NOT tell you correct OAL. All I shoot out of my XD45 are lead bullets. Leading is minimal

[frkelly74]

Whats wrong with a lee factory crimp die?

The factory crimp die has a tendency to size the boolit down while it is crimping the case. . I accomplished this mistake a different way and ended up with horrendous leading. the only leading I have ever had by the way. I started with a boolit the right size and swaged it down too small after it was loaded in an attempt to "factory crimp" the rounds. They did feed and chamber slick, but I got keyholes after 25 rounds and a big mess to clean.

[geargnasher]

The problem with the Lee FCD in straight-walled pistol shooting only occurs with cast boolits, not jacketed bullets. The reason is it has a carbide post-sizer ring that ensures the entire diameter of the case (except the part in the shellholder, of course) is below maximum loaded specs, which makes certain that the round will chamber. When you load a cast boolit, it is usually .001-.003" larger than standard jacketed bullet specs, so the finished round has a larger outside diameter, and the carbide ring squishes the case and boolit down together. When you fire the boolit, it's smaller than the groove diameter now (like jacketed would be), but unlike jacketed, the lead gets gas-cut by the resulting blowby leaks from being too small, and you get leading as this dust deposits in front of the boolit and ironed on the bore.

Use a taper-crimp die to "just" roll the bellmouth of the case straight, you hardly ever need to actually apply crimp to an autoloader's case mouth, unlike a revolver where the inertial dynamics are different.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

Don't go to using a 18# recoil spring as a fix for your problem, read Band Aid. your pistol was made for a 16# recoil spring and it should work fine as it is. considering it's a full size 1911.

I guess I should say that 18# recoil springs are used by some folks, If it's because the rounds are very hot or the person is trying to go easy on the pistol frame--
I say perhaps could be-- maybe -- possibly --OK. but remember the more force coming back
equals more force going foreword. In the end not much is gained, and most times like I said it's a Band aid for something else that is wrong.


I also use a shock buffer in my 1911 pistols for what it is worth, but I would never recommend the use of a shock buffer in a carry pistol.

I shoot a lot of .45 ACP. Some if it is a bit on the heavy side. My guns see occasional +P ammo usage as well. This is why I use an 18lb recoil spring over the stock 16lb one.

I still have the stock (somewhat weaker and worn) old 16lb recoil springs. They rarely get used by me now, unless I am planning on shooting lighter weight cast boolits.

Springs do wear out, and if you shoot a lot , they will wear out sooner. Many people will NEVER replace the recoil spring on a gun. Some folks just don't shoot enough to warrant it, and many others just don't know any better.

I did not mean to recommend that anyone, or everyone should use an 18lb recoil spring, and I definitely would not use a heavier recoil spring to fix a problem. I was just stating what I was using, in my guns. I also should have explained why.

My apologies for not clarifying that.



- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

sorry for the lack of info but i now have some that may help. at the edge of the case it .474. the boolits are .453 to .455. there is a noticible buldge in some of the cases when the round is complete which i thought was odd.

For me a crimp of .474 (depending on the brass) is on the ragged edge of no go. You could check a few boolits that chamber nicely, or a factory round for comparison, but now you know where to look.

I would say your variance in boolit size is why you have problems getting some of your rounds to chamber. The noticeable bulge in the cases would confirm that. I would decide what size boolit is giving you the best performance in your gun,and stick with that size.

For example if you get the best accuracy with boolits that are .452, perhaps size them all to .452 for consistency's sake.


i do chamber check each round before i put them into a box and if they dont fit, i put them through the seating/ crimping dies one more time. i chamber checked every round and yesterday i had 4 out of the 100 give me problems.

Now that you have an idea of what will chamber nicely, you also have a good idea of how far to crimp your boolits. You can use Gear's suggestion of removing your pistol barrel and using it to check what fits.

I would also suggest using a Lee push through sizer die on your cast boolits to help make sure they are not too large, so they will all chamber consistently.


on the up side though.. i had ZERO leading in the thing.

Congratulations on that, fit is the most important factor in eliminating leading.

Smaller than bore boolits will gas cut, and tend to lead like crazy. If they are too large, well you have seen that they sometimes won't chamber, and will bulge the cases.

Decide what is the perfect fit for your .45, and size all of your boolits to that.


- Bullwolf

[bryonbush]

thanks for all the help. i drove up to allen to visit cabelas and they were a no go on a sizer die. looks like ill have to order one. to be honest i was hoping that i wouldnt have to get a sizer die. not blaming LEE here too much but my .401-175-tc puts out fantastic bullets. this mold... not so much. i may be following bullwolf's lead and purchasing a different mold. call it lazy or what you want, but i dont think i should have to size a boolit if the mold was doing its job right. anyways, ill be ordering a sizer die tonight.

[Bullwolf]

thanks for all the help. i drove up to allen to visit cabelas and they were a no go on a sizer die. looks like ill have to order one. to be honest i was hoping that i wouldnt have to get a sizer die. not blaming LEE here too much but my .401-175-tc puts out fantastic bullets. this mold... not so much. i may be following bullwolf's lead and purchasing a different mold. call it lazy or what you want, but i dont think i should have to size a boolit if the mold was doing its job right. anyways, ill be ordering a sizer die tonight.

I can't say that it wouldn't be a whole lot easier if the Lee mold dropped exactly the right size for my gun when using tumble lube boolits.

The good news is that it is too large, and not too small.

When the boolits drop too small, you have a lot fewer options.

I can live with sizing down to .452 since the boolits shoot quite nicely for me. The Lee sizer die is also not very expensive, it's quite easy to use, and doing so is no hardship.

I have a few other Lee molds that ended up being "spot on" and will shoot as cast for my guns, but there can be other variables involved. What If I had a larger bore in one of my pistols for example?

My Lee TL401-175-SWC is the same way, it drops .4015 boolits that will shoot as cast.

My old Lee 44 magnum mold C429-240SWC tends to drop bullets that will shoot for me at the perfect size as cast.

So will my Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R for 9mm, most of the time.

However my TL452-230-2R that I use for 45 ACP is designed for a few different applications, and for a wide year span of .45 caliber guns.

The box even lists 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Colt (Long Colt) it just drops them a bit on the larger side for 45 ACP.

I can imagine tolerances varying enough from gun to gun that having a mold that casts on the larger size could be a real boon for some of the pistols out there.

While it is not the primary boolit choice that I would use in 45 Colt, it still might be really nice to have the ability to use it as an option.

Someone who bought the mold, and needed a somewhat larger bore diameter cast boolit, might be a tad upset if it wouldn't work as intended for them as well.

Unfortunately for the two of us, we desire a somewhat smaller boolit, so we have to size it. If nothing else, your boolits will be quite consistent after running them all through the Lee sizer die.




- Bullwolf

[milprileb]

Its been said but I will note it again. Just cause you seat bullet to the depth in Lyman manual (or others) and it drops correct into your barrel (out of weapon) may NOT all be just peachy.

Now: load some magazines to see if they load correctly.

You may find all is fine but after 3 rounds , the mag follower will bind.

The Lyman specs for their 225 gr RN were too long for my mags but the rounds
loaded to those specs sure did PLONK into the barrel. A little more seating depth
solved t his problem for this bullet to this 1911.

Other thing: feeding issue with Lee 228 RN design. Note the ogive is not a real
taper like the Lyman 225 RN design. Lee ogive may require a deeper seating depth to
fit your weapon.

I find neither RN design is great for accuracy but the 200 gr SWC designs (clones of H&G 68) of RCBS and Lee are sure fire accurate bullets in all my 1911 pistols. SWC present new drama in finding correct seating depth to both feed and function. You will find seating depth data all over the map looking at Lyman, Hornady and Lyman cast bullet manuals. Its a trial and error event to find the sweet seating depth on this SWC bullet. Its very accurate though
and I push it at 5.1 gr of WW231 (aka HP 38). You can move it faster but at 50 yards my accuracy is just fine with this load. At 25 yds, its a ragged hole.

I go with standard 16 # springs. I buy the Wilson packs of 2 shok buffs with a spring for 6 bucks at Midway. When second shok buff is worn out , time to buy new pack as spring needs replacement.

Its about 2000 rds fired on average for spring swap out. For certain , certain..3000 rds and that spring is got to be replaced. Oh, you can go further and when the damage is done, you will be looking for a aftermarket frame for replacement. I have one 1911A1 Colt Cbt Govt model that has only shot lead or cast bullets its entire life since bought new in 1982 era and has over 48,000 rounds thru it now. Just running along perfectly but I swap out springs every 2000 rds and run shok buffs in the pistol. Most of that ,99.9% is 200 SWC with 5.1 gr WW231 loading.