M die ordering: is this right

[milprileb]

I am ordering 45acp and 9mm M dies.

I see generic 45 and 9mm M die on Midway site.

I don't see a .452 or .357 die listed.

Am I missing something?

[Bass Ackward]

Its a taper. But didn't you get an M-die in your pistol set? Most of these are three die sets with one of them, the expander or M die.

[milprileb]

I think only Lyman die sets have a M die. My dies are not Lyman.

[Bass Ackward]

M die is a brand name of Lyman. They created these dies for rifle sets because they were only two dies. They are generic to bore diameter and most of the time come in two lengths. Long and short so that they work for ALL calibers in that bore diameter.

If you bought a new set of pistol dies and they came with three dies, then you already own an expander / beller just that nobody else thought it important enough to give them a name. These are cut SPECIFIC to THAT caliber but can be used for longer cartridges if you understand how to do it and have a long enough die body. But this is generally unnecessary because ...... you get one with the next pistol caliber set.

Read your instructions for adjustment and see if the one that came with your set meets your needs. Good chance it will.

[Doby45]

There is in fact a difference in a Lyman "M" die and the standard belling/flaring die in most pistol sets. Lee pistols sets simply come with a belling/flaring die. The "M" die that Lyman makes not only flares the case mouth but it also expands the case to better fit the boolit as you are seating it.

[USSR]

There is in fact a difference in a Lyman "M" die and the standard belling/flaring die in most pistol sets. Lee pistols sets simply come with a belling/flaring die. The "M" die that Lyman makes not only flares the case mouth but it also expands the case to better fit the boolit as you are seating it.

+1. The Lyman "M" die is superior to the simple flaring dies that are in the other die sets.

Don

[milprileb]

Clear to me M die is different than standard bell/flaring dies but sure looks like some folks thing all such dies are same.

[theperfessor]

I make my own M dies for my RCBS pistol dies. I have always thought than an M die is basically a two diameter expander plug with the small diameter sized to give the right neck tension to properly grip the bullet and the larger diameter sized to allow the bullet to sit down in the case squarely for straight seating without the danger of over-flaring the case mouth or shaving the bullet during seating. At least that's the way mine work.

[milprileb]

I think 12 bucks for a M die is not too excessive.

I am not a machinist

Can you make them and whats your price ?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I too have made several expander plugs for my .44's. I have my reloading bench set up very near my Hardinge Chucker. I won't make one for someone else for $12. It is called re inventing the wheel. Hell the shipping would kill the deal.

I only made mine because I was modifying diesets that didn't function the way I needed them to, in lew of buying complete new die sets. It is cheaper than doing that.

But my shop rate is $95/hour and it takes 30/45 minutes from a bare machine to make something that is right, and only if you have all thread the right size to start with.

If I don't have anything else to do I'll do it, but I buy stuff like this all the time because it is cheaper than making it. Also if I need it right now I'll make it, but only if the macihines needed aren't tied up on a paying job.

More to making parts than just being able to do it.

Randy

[35remington]

"+1. The Lyman "M" die is superior to the simple flaring dies that are in the other die sets."


Utterly, completely wrong. Someone is not doing objective comparison here or simply does not know better.

Follow Bass Ackward's comments and not this misleading advice.

You need correct information, not opinions that are inaccurate.

Care to debate? I'll go a few rounds.....and be careful, because you must admit that the other brands work perfectly with cast, or you are not being truly objective.

Remember.....correct information is what the OP needs, not bias.

Good advice does not lead people to spend extra money for no improvement, and this is not good advice.

[theperfessor]

I don't make them, sorry. I don't think $12 is a bad deal at all if it gets you what you need. If you need one in a special size there are some fine craftsmen on this site that could probably help you out. Buckshot is the first that comes to mind. I started making my own when RCBS didn't have what I wanted. If they had what I wanted then (or now) for $12 I would have bought one. I can't duplicate exactly a mass-produced product and beat the price. And a mass production facility can't make custom one-of-a-kind products as cheaply as a small shop run by a craftsman. The investment in equipment and facilities to make cheap mass produced parts raises overhead costs enough to make the production of custom products not cost effective. Oops, sorry about the economics screed.

If you can get what you want for $12 I'd recommend you go for it. It definitely helps the loading process and will help you make better ammo.

[35remington]

Perhaps the OP needs to tell us what brands he has so we might ensure he is not spending money needlessly for M dies. There is no magic to them.

[geargnasher]

OK, I'll play. Here's an RCBS expander for .357 magnum, it really IS an expander, as you can see it expands the case the full length plus a hair for the standard seating depth of typical weight boolits. The problem is, the stupid thing is about .353" in diameter, which won't expand the case enough for any but the hardest cast boolits without swaging them. It's made for J-words. RCBS makes a "Cowboy" die set in several calibers that are dimensioned to load fatter boolits.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24608&d=1282019955

Lee, by and large, do not make expanders for their pistol and straight-walled die sets. They have a little short, tapered guide for the belling flange, and if they expand the body of the case any at all, it's only about a third of the way down to where the boolit base will be seated, and on a full-length sized pistol case, that isn't nearly enough to keep the bottom half of the boolit from being squeezed undersized by the too-small brass. Here are some examples:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25346&d=1284349292

Here are some drawings of Lee expanders, and the ones Doby and I had made to solve the problems we were having with Lee dies. Compare the measurements to common j-word expander spuds from ANY brand, you'll see the difference. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25981&d=1286771797

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/Doby45/374edca9.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/2qb545i.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25303&d=1284265634

Hornady New Dimension dies I've seen have decent expanders in some instances, but not all.

What the OP needs is to tell us what die sets he has, what size his boolits need to be, and then we can make intelligent recommendations based upon what is available from current production manufacturers.

Gear

[Bass Ackward]

My comments were biased to cartridges listed.

I don't know too many people that shoot pure lead or soft bullets in either caliber. Especially in self loading platforms where pushing the bullet into the case can be a no no. So why would I purposely reduce case neck tension just to create a safety issue?

Not my advice.

[theperfessor]

Gear, your first picture shows a typical RCBS neck expander - one diameter and a cone to flare the case mouth. That is exactly the type of expander I make replacements for. Mine have no flare and have two cylindrical sections, one expands the neck to the proper size to hold the bullet, the other sizes the case to bullet diameter + about .002-.003". I don't care what it's called, a two diameter neck expanding plug works better for me than any other type.

[35remington]

I'll play too.

Lyman's dimensions for the "parallel sided" portion of their M die expander plugs are little different in diameter than that made by any other manufacturer......for example, their parallel sided section for the 45 ACP is .449", as is my RCBS expander, as is my Hornady expander, as is my Lee expander. Same for 38/357. Same for 9mm. Same for 44.

You get the idea.

Further, a "step" expands the case mouth no better than a flare on the end of the parallel sided section. The "step" is little different from the flare offered by RCBS, Hornady, etc.

One must know how a product differs from its competition to correctly opine whether it is superior or not....and if those dimensions do not differ, it ain't superior.

If you're looking for a mere "thou" under typical cast bullet diameter, M dies don't measure up, as their diameter is little different from the standard diameter of the expander plug in rifle two die sets.

Pistol calibers are similar in dimensions to many others.

No superiority. Just conformity, and little difference.

If you're modifying your RCBS, Lee, etc. expanders.....better modify your M die plugs too. They don't have the dimensions claimed for them.

Some just read the propaganda.

And yeah, I've got a whole lot of M die plugs made by Lyman, which is why I don't wax philosophic about their superiority. I know their dimensions, and as a result, I know better.

Further, it is SOP to try, or at least measure what you have first before assuming it is deficient. If no problems exist, the design is satisfactory.

There are reasons why things are done the way they are, and if something does not meet your needs, after modification you might want to have another unaltered plug for jacketed bullets to ensure that everything is as intended.

The issue is about stock M dies. Gear, if you want to talk about how everything is to various degrees somewhat deficient for super exacting cast bullet demands, that's fine, but you're a bit off topic. The topic is how M dies are superior to other brands as issued by Lyman, and they ain't.

Demonstrably, and by measurement.

[geargnasher]

That's true, they're made for jacketed mostly. Calibers like 45 Colt mostly intended for lead boolits have a .450" M die in the set, and the "45" M die is great for any .458-9" straight rifle caliber. If you load cast in .30 caliber, buy the .31 die, it's just right for .311" boolits. If you want the right tools for the job, you have to buy the right tools for the job. If you're shooting cast boolits, you need to buy the stuff you need to shoot cast boolits. If you're shooting jacketed bullets, any lousy die set will do just fine.

Lee's straight-walled "expanders" just plain suck. They are all too short for the job, and taper too much. A .006" crush fit isn't good for anything, much less cast. You can't maintain more than .002-3" neck tension anyway, because of the elastic limit of the brass. Cram a .452" boolit in a .447" .45 ACP case neck (because that's what it's going to be with some dies), pull it out, and you'll have a .451" boolit and a .449" case neck. I've done this several times with every caliber I own, just to see what the elastic limit of the brass is.

The reason I recommend Lyman M dies is that they at least expand DEEPLY enough for most boolit weights and depths, which can't be said of all of the brands, they do flare if you set them deep enough, and the larger parallel portion serves to minimize boolit crush and encourages a straight start upon seating, which is a helluva lot better than most "expander" dies do with cast boolits. The M die isn't perfect, but it's the best off-the-shelf option, and a good machinist can make anything you need to fit the die body if you really need it.

Gear

[35remington]

Ascribing "deeply enough" to M dies and their expander plugs is often unwarranted in the pistol calibers mentioned here, where the diameters and parallel to flare length are often "incorrect" for cast bullets as well.

"Deeply enough" must also consider not only the start of the parallel sided shank distance to the flare or belling step, but also the bullet to be used in the pistol calibers mentioned.

Many of the M die's dimensions are incorrect if the bullet is heavier than standard. In this case the bullet heel must be the expander and the "benefit" to the M die is lost if the bullet heel is the expander.......that is, if the "perfect" dimension to the expander diameter and shank length is all that important.....and I don't believe it is.

Given this situation is common, it is reasonable to posit that the Lee short shanked expander is not quite the extreme detriment claimed save for butter soft bullets. And it isn't, or the loads I've assembled in 45 ACP with cast bullets using it couldn't possibly be accurate or leave little leading.

By the way, they are and they do.

Further, since the parallel to flare distance is fixed, lighter than standard bullets don't have the "step below the bullet" case wall dimension you claim to like to have to hold the bullet in place in autoloading pistol cartridges. In the case of light bullets, the pistol M die's dimensions are also incorrect, in accordance with "perfect" practice.

Kind of explains why everyone doesn't adopt your .450" expander ball dimension as correct, doesn't it? Since lighter than standard bullets are often used, even in cast, case tension must make up to some degree for the lack of exacting expander length and expanding depth.

If I was Lee, RCBS, Hornady, etc. I wouldn't change what I was doing, either.

There are good reasons for settling on "standards".....and jack of all trades cannot be considered perfect, but they're plenty good enough, even in situations that might seem otherwise. Functionality and accuracy are the proof.

And if "perfect" were all that necessary, I'd have different M dies for every one of the 45 ACP bullets I cast due to their varied shank length and need for different expanders for perfect expanding depth.

This is of course ridiculous both in theory and practice. As you'd expect.

For the pistol calibers mentioned in the OP, I strongly contest whether the Lyman M dies have a "larger parallel section" compared to many other brands.

They do not. I've measured 'em. Mundane they are, and as a compromise they most certainly ain't perfect, nor even "better."

Best "off the shelf option" for 45 ACP and 9mm in the OP's query?

Hardly.

[35remington]

Larger "parallel sided section" in most rifle caliber M dies ain't true either, nor superior depth in most bottleneck cases. All reach past the case neck in most instances.

What superiority? Can't see it. Results never show it.

[milprileb]

Okay, now that all the molecules have been argued, may I please (original poster) ask this one question:

Is the M die a better solution to setting conditions of seating lead cast bullets into 45acp & 9mm brass than the bone stock flare/bell die in my RCBS or Hornady 4 die set?

Not asking for perfect. Asking does it do it better (no lead shaving or tilted bullets seated).

[Alan in Vermont]

"+1. You need correct information, not opinions that are inaccurate.

OK, so since you are the (self proclaimed) expert at this point, please expand on why the M dies have no advantage over a "normal" tapered neck flaring plug.

I happen to like the way M dies do neck prep. When I made my hollow drop tube/expanders I copied the stepped design of the M dies.

(On edit)

I see you have already shared your opinions, which are worth no more nor less than those of anyone else.

I don't like a belled case mouth. I shoot mostly rimmed, straight handgun cartridges and I'm not anal about trim to length. I snap guage my cases and trim only the long ones, not trim them all to the same length. With a two diameter expander I feel (my opinion, worth as much as yours) I get a less damaging, to the case mouth, flare than with a taper expander with whatever variations I get in case length.

[milprileb]

Alan, I am no expert, I am the slug asking for sage advice. I am under the impression
that the M die does the neck prep. Don't know how this was mis interpreted.

[35remington]

"Is the M die a better (emphasis mine) solution to setting conditions of seating lead cast bullets into 45acp & 9mm brass than the bone stock flare/bell die in my RCBS or Hornady 4 die set?"

The answer to that question is "no." For the reasons given. It's just as good as any other, but better it is not.

Alan:

Lee dies have the tapered neck plug. Feel superior to those if you wish, but the other brands are not tapered. They are also parallel, have a flaring portion as well, and are similar in diameter in their parallel section to the Lyman.

The parallel sided expander is very much standard in many die brands, and is not "special" to Lyman.

That doesn't make a "superior" die in Lyman's version in any objective measurement. Most obviously in the pistol calibers mentioned by the OP.

None of this makes me an expert.....I am simply pointing out the very obvious that no one else feels it necessary to mention for some unknown reason.

As I said, I'm interested in correct information, not inaccurate statements. If that makes me an "expert" in your eyes, so be it. I'd rather it would always be so easy to be considered an "expert" when the only real need is to observe and report accurately rather than comment with misleading, incorrect information.

[35remington]

Alan, damage to the case mouth can occur with either Lyman or other brands if the expanding plug is adjusted too deep.

Guess how I know? Too far with either produces an overflared case mouth.

[USSR]

"+1. The Lyman "M" die is superior to the simple flaring dies that are in the other die sets."


Utterly, completely wrong. Someone is not doing objective comparison here or simply does not know better.

Bite me, 35remington, who died and made you the all knowing? You have your opinion, and I have mine. And in my opinion, the Lyman "M" die is superior to a straight flaring die. You don't like it, don't buy it. But quit trashing other peoples opinions.

Don

[theperfessor]

Below is a picture of the expander plugs I make to replace the ones that came with my RCBS pistol caliber dies. The one on the right is the RCBS expander that came with a .38/.357 3 die set. It has a long parallel section and a flare. The one on the right is the one I made. It has two parallel sections. The upper, large diameter section expands the case mouth to be .002-.003" bigger than the bullet diameter, the lower expands the neck to .0015 - .003" smaller than the bullet diameter. I make the length of the bottom section overlong and then through a process of fit-and-try I cut the length back so that when I run the expander in to the proper depth it expands the mouth of the case to a depth of .040 - .060 deep and leaves the bottom of the sized neck at the depth of bottom of the seated bullet. This creates a "shelf" that prevents telescoping the bullet in an autoloader without squeezing the lower part of the bullet down. The one shown here is set up for loading a commercial cast 100 gr TC bullet in a .380.

I seat bullets and crimp in two steps. I use a single stage RCBS junior press and load using 50 cartridge blocks. I also hand dispense each charge and set each bullet (straight up!) into the case by hand. I don't know if a case with no flare would work in a progressive or multi-station press, so I'm not going to say this is the best type of expander plug or best way to prep cases under all conditions. But I think it is for the way I do things.

Here are the advantages:

- Can't overflare a case. I make mine long enough that even if they bottom out in the case they still won't expand the case more than .003" anywhere. Result: longer case life, fewer split necks.

- Bullets set straight in case before seating. Result: no lead shaving, no case mouth nicks on short bullets that tip sideways in the seating die.

- Resistance to telescoping, by creating a shelf of reduced diameter for the bullet base to seat on. Result: reduced risk of high pressure load in an auto.

I won't argue with anyone over which type of expander/M-die or whatever you want to call it is best. I learned a long time ago not to be dogmatic and think that what I think is best for me is the best for everybody else under all conditions. I will only share my experience with the way I do things and the reasoning behind it. I will say that I don't like to use cylinder-and-flare expanders or flare-only expanders of any brand for loading cast bullets, but that is my opinion. If it works for anybody else then have at it.

[geargnasher]

Okay, now that all the molecules have been argued, may I please (original poster) ask this one question:

Is the M die a better solution to setting conditions of seating lead cast bullets into 45acp & 9mm brass than the bone stock flare/bell die in my RCBS or Hornady 4 die set?

Not asking for perfect. Asking does it do it better (no lead shaving or tilted bullets seated).

I don't have a set, but according to their website, all Lyman three-die sets include an expander die that has two parallel steps, just like the generic size "M" dies for each caliber. I don't know if the .45 ACP and 9mm stepped seating dies are availale seperately, but you can find out. Perfessor Keith gives a very good explanation of how the different expanders work, so you can make your own decision.

Gear

[milprileb]

M dies can be bought for 45acp and 9mm separately.

I will try one in 45acp and see if I like it. It at least will do no worse
than a standard Hornady or RCBS flare/belling die.

I was surprised by the amount of exchange on this thread. I though I asked a
simple question on a simple action but I can see dynamics of this case prep
function are debatable. This really took me back. I was not expecting it.

I guess there are no absolutes on this subject.

[Doby45]

Some days this group will debate a topic to death and the next day the same topic could come up and you will only hear crickets. Very dynamic group here.

[35remington]

USSR, it is merely a simple observation. I'm not biting anyone or anything.....just expecting a reasoned argument from anyone in return. I provided one myself.

If Lyman M dies are identical in diameter in the expanding section to other expanding plugs, have parallel sides like other expanding plugs, and have a flaring section above the parallel sided section just like the other expanding plugs, how can the M dies be "superior" to other dies that do the same thing in the same way with the same dimensions?

How to arrive at any other conclusion? Especially when I own varieties of both types?

It may make you mad......but trot out some competitive brands in 9mm and 45 ACP and start measuring. Then at least you'll have more information. Even if you don't like it.

Asserting that lacking an M die in 9mm and 45 ACP will doom you to substandard cast bullet loads, compared to all competitive brands, is a contention I can't let pass unchallenged. "Superior" doesn't apply for any reason I can find in actual measurement or use.

[USSR]

If Lyman M dies are identical in diameter in the expanding section to other expanding plugs, have parallel sides like other expanding plugs, and have a flaring section above the parallel sided section just like the other expanding plugs, how can the M dies be "superior" to other dies that do the same thing in the same way with the same dimensions?

How to arrive at any other conclusion? Especially when I own varieties of both types?

I don't know about your RCBS expander dies, but mine DO NOT have a parallel flaring section above the expanding plug like my Type "M" die does. The flaring section does not flare the neck in the same way, which with the Type "M" resembles a "cup", which makes seating a bullet straight easier. And a Lee die that I have, has no expanding plug at all, just a flaring tool. Regardless, I find the Lyman Type "M" die to be better than the other expander dies, and will continue to recommend them whether you like them or not.

Don

[theperfessor]

You can't compare a cylinder and cone expander to a two cylinder expander. I thought the two cylinder type was the true configuration of a Lyman M-type expander plug. At least that is what is shown in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. A cylinder and cone arrangement is not a true M type expander plug.

Do Lyman dies have an expander plug in their die sets that is of the cylinder and cone arrangement? Or do they come with the two cylinder type? I don't own any Lyman dies so I really don't know.

[462]

"Do Lyman dies have an expander plug in their die sets that is of the cylinder and cone arrangement? Or do they come with the two cylinder type? I don't own any Lyman dies so I really don't know."

Their straight-wall handgun die sets include the M-die (two cylinder), while their bottle-neck sets include the usual expander button. However, M-dies are available for the bottle-neck cartridges.

Perhaps this will help those who aren't familiar with M-dies: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

[35remington]

As I said earlier in this thread, either there's willful misrepresentation of the facts here, or a lot of people simply don't know.

My job is to correct misrepresentation of either type, and give good information.

I will post pictures, side by side, of a Lyman expander next to a 2010 RCBS expanding plug for the 45 ACP. Both have parallel sided sections. Both have steps. Both do the identical thing in an identical way because the diameters are identical as well.

Stand by for pictures.

The 9mm in RCBS and Lyman dies have the same relationship, among others.

If being an "expert" means the only one posting factual information, so be it.

An expert I am.

Lyman M dies superior? Absolutely not.

Sorry to have to drag you, kicking and screaming, toward correct information, but someone has to take out the garbage periodically, and that guy is me.

[USSR]

If being an "expert" means the only one posting factual information, so be it.

An expert I am.

Lyman M dies superior? Absolutely not.

Sorry to have to drag you, kicking and screaming, toward correct information, but someone has to take out the garbage periodically, and that guy is me.

No, 35remington, what you are is an @ss.

Don

[35remington]

Gentlemen, I am not much of a poker player.

When I insist so adamantly about a topic, you can be darn certain I know, without a doubt, what I'm talking about.

Seen below are a picture of a 45 ACP Lyman M die expanding plug. Next to it, darker in color, is a 2010 RCBS expanding plug from a carbide die set for the same caliber.

Note both have steps. Both are .449" below the step. Both are .453" above the step. Both have identical expanding lengths below the step.

Please also note that it is a two cylinder design, like the M die.

Any questions?

I now leave it to you to figure out what other brands are identical to Lyman's M die. There are others.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/IMG_1494.jpg

[theperfessor]

I've been a member here since 2007 and finally found a use for the ignore button. I leave my "job" at work and come here to learn and share, not get into peeing contests with self-proclaimed experts. I'm done with this thread as I feel I've provided all the info I can relative to the OP's original question. I'm sure he can decide for himself what works best for him at this point.

[Leadforbrains]

Well I read through this thread and it did get me to thinking. I got a set of RCBS .44 spcl Cowboy dies, so I borrowed my buddies digital caliper and measured the shaft on the of the expander plug. It measured .428. We then measured one that came with a std set of RCBS .44 dies and it measured at .425. I ain't no expert and what we did was no scientilogic feat of experimental engineering, but that right there showed me that there was a difference between the two. I like the RCBS Cowboy dies because of the expander die and That is what I am using for some of my lead boolit reloads. I know this has nothing to do with the M die in question, but I thought it was worth mentioning here. If I was needing something more in the case expansion dept I would definitely consider a custom solution.

[kbstenberg]

If I may ask an additional question. Is there any On Line Parts store that sells the M die besides the Lyman store?
Kevin

[35remington]

Any reloading supplier. Midway, Graf's, Natchez, etc.

Make sure it differs from what you've got before you order. In the two calibers the OP asked about, the M dies do not differ significantly from several other brands.

[94Doug]

As long as were talking about Expander dies guys, check this out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1310796#post1310796

Doug

[Leadforbrains]

Y'all do have some of the smartest people on this forum!

[michiganvet]

I have used M Dies for years for pistol, rifle, cast and jacketed. I run the larger cylinder in far enough that the gas check is a slip fit into the case mouth. I feel that gives me the best results with the tools I have. There may be better tools but I am old and set in my ways after many decades.

[Char-Gar]

You folks can turn the simplest of things into something very complex and esoteric.

Most any of the factory belling/expanding dies will work, as long as you don't put so much bell on the case, it won't enter the seating die.

But, like many I prefer the Lyman M die and it's two diameter expander rather than the endless bell.

[montana_charlie]

If you start with a 9/16 x 18 bolt of sufficient length, you can turn out a two-diameter expander using a reversible drill and a bench grinder. Of course the grind a little and measure a lot part can be time consuming.



Further, a "step" expands the case mouth no better than a flare on the end of the parallel sided section.
It's obvious you firmly believe what you say, which explains why you are so adamant in saying it.

And, I will agree with your contention that an M die is not superior to any other die which is identical to it ... but called something else.

But a die which is NOT shaped like the M die ... it has a conical flare instead of the second 'step' on the M die ... IS INFERIOR to an M die for use with flat based bullets.

The square corner on the base of a bullet cannot find a firm seat in a case mouth with a funnel-shaped flare. It is prone to tip in random directions.

Only a boat tail might find a stable support in a flared mouth, but only if the angles matched.



I am ordering 45acp and 9mm M dies.

I see generic 45 and 9mm M die on Midway site.

I don't see a .452 or .357 die listed.

Am I missing something?
Here is where you can find custom expanders ... two-step, parallel-sided expanders ... which are not called M dies but are identical to them in design.
The difference is that they are custom made to the diameters you need, and only cost nineteen bucks apiece.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=4035

CM

[Char-Gar]

Charlie... Whether or not the bullet base enters the case mouth straight, is as much a function of the seating die, as the type of flare on the case.

If there is room for the bullet to wobble, you point is well taken. But in a well made Vickerman or chamber type seater, there is no room for the bullet to wobble. That is why it is called straight line seating.

This is why I use a straight line seater for all my rifle loads.

[milprileb]

KBSTENBERG

Midway and Grafs sells the dies. They will be cheaper than Lyman store by a country mile.

[kbstenberg]

Thank you Milprileb. Midways catalog doesn't have any Lyman dies. So I called there Tele. #. They do have some reguler dies but no M dies.
Graff ( our sponser) does have all the diferent M dies. So I guess that is where my next order is going to.
Kevin

[94Doug]

I am sure that Midway also has M Dies, I have purchased them before. Also, check out the extender die that theperfesser made for me posted elswhere....you might be able to use one die for several applications.

Doug

[milprileb]

Grafs are sponsors and good folks so getting M dies from them will work out for all.

[35remington]

Quoting Charlie:

"But a die which is NOT shaped like the M die ... it has a conical flare instead of the second 'step' on the M die ... IS INFERIOR to an M die for use with flat based bullets.

The square corner on the base of a bullet cannot find a firm seat in a case mouth with a funnel-shaped flare. It is prone to tip in random directions."

Charlie, this is so easily dealt with that there is absolutely no reason to say a two cylinder expanding plug like an M die plug is superior to a cylinder and a flare because it starts the bullet in the case "straighter." There is no impediment whatsoever to straight seating with a cylinder and flare expanding plug.

Why not?

Simply tap the bullet against the seating stem lightly before seating it. This straightens the bullet with the neck just like an M die is claimed to do. Then you may give it the full seating stroke, and it will seat straight in the neck because tapping it gently against the seating stem has straightened it first.

To prove this to yourself, try a non M type expanding plug that has a cylinder and a flare. Put the bullet in the case neck, crooked as you want. Raise the ram and tap the bullet nose gently against the seating stem once or twice.

Now withdraw it from the die.

Notice the bullet is straight with the case before it is seated. Just as well as any M die can do.

That's why I say that as long as the bullet enters the case neck without damage to its heel, the expanding plug can be flared above the cylindrical section or stepped. Don't matter as long as your seating stroke straightens it before you run it in to full depth.

That's why I'm not too concerned with exact expanding plug type as long as I'm able to address it with the seating die. That's pretty much all of the time, so no advantage with the M die there, either.

[montana_charlie]

To prove this to yourself, try a non M type expanding plug that has a cylinder and a flare. Put the bullet in the case neck, crooked as you want. Raise the ram and tap the bullet nose gently against the seating stem once or twice.

Now withdraw it from the die.

Notice the bullet is straight with the case before it is seated. Just as well as any M die can do.

That's why I say that as long as the bullet enters the case neck without damage to its heel, the expanding plug can be flared above the cylindrical section or stepped. Don't matter as long as your seating stroke straightens it before you run it in to full depth.
While I am bumping the nose of the bullet against the bullet seating stem, am I likely to collapse one side of a hollow point spitzer?
Will I put a tilt on the flat part of a wad cutter's nose?
Why should I not expect to find that my perfectly square base corner is not somewhat rounded on part of it's circumference?

You see, if I use a tool designed to assemble the ammunition correctly, I can avoid worries such as these. But, if I used tools which cut corners (figuratively and actually) I would have to learn to ignore those possibilities ... much as you have done.

CM

[milprileb]

Not sure tapping is going to work on a progressive press. Dies today are sold with a seating crimp die. So I got my die set out high to just seat bullets and not crimp them and I don't think tapping on bullet will do anything to insure bullet will seat true.

Might work on single station better.

The only seating die for SWC that I have found that will insure a SWC bullet is seated correctly is the DIllon. All others use a flat stem in seating and that is not a good solution to preventing some tilt during seating.

[35remington]

Most of what seats a bullet straight is seating stem suitability. If what you've got isn't working, try another seating stem or modify what you've got. It's quite possible to seat a bullet straight that has been set in a case prepared with a tapered expanding die. Even if it didn't go into the die all that straight.

If the seating stem is suitable.

Charlie, I've seated wadcutters, semiwadcutters, RF's, and spire points and spitzers with the tap seating method. All work. Nothing sags, bends, collapses, or anything of the sort.

The bullet you're seating is a lot tougher than that.

As I said, try it. No concerns.

"Why should I not expect to find that my perfectly square base corner is not somewhat rounded on part of it's circumference?"

You don't have to "expect." Check it and see. Withdraw the bullet after gently bumping it against the seating stem. Since the base of the bullet was inside the case to begin with, no harm will be done because there's nothing to gouge it.

I'm not ignoring any concerns because there aren't any to ignore. My tap seating method causes no harm to the bullet whatsoever.

[milprileb]

I am looking at RCBS and Hornady seating dies for 45ACP here at the bench. Neither is rocket science precision seating for flat nosed SWC bullets. In the case of 200 gr SWC HG 68 style bullets, the nose is not perfect flat and when that mates to the flat seating stem, you can get tilt.

The Dillon seating stem captures the nose of the bullet and aligns it for true seating. Go here and see

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24469/catid/4/Dillon_Seating_Dies

I don't own this Dillon seating die but I intend to do so. Not only will it seat more accurately, it can be taken apart while still in the die head of my Dillon press for cleaning of any bullet lube deposits that accrue and put back in operation quickly with no degradation of bullet seating setting.

Your opinions on this please.

[Bass Ackward]

All I can say is that it was an eye opening experience to spin some of my "high quality" reloads to see where they were. And I owned M dies.

What I observed had me replacing dies and changing and modifying a few things and steps that I was doing in the psychological comfort of producing quality ammo. (Translation: what I THOUGHT I knew.)

An M-die is really a benefit to people with fat fingers, small bullet / caliber loaders, sticky lube fans, people that run mixed brass, won't trim cases, have improperly adjusted or sloppy dies or presses. It "can" get you much closer. Or not.

I still could produce badly out ammo with poor dies or brass preparation with either type.

So an M die only makes a difference if it does. And yes, confidence from ignorance can be bliss.

[35remington]

To follow up on Bass's comments, in actual practice whatever you do that is "supposed" to happen a certain way often doesn't. It's up to you to find out why and change things until results match expectations. Maybe it's how you do it. Maybe it's the die. If you haven't tried changing your technique you might be blaming the wrong thing.

Charlie, I have an RCBS 85 FN mould that throws razor sharp bullet edges when I am on my game in casting a good bullet. I have never noticed any flattening of base edges when seating this bullet or the other different caliber flatbases in my inventory when tap seating in a flared case neck (not an M die). To refresh my memory, I just sized a case in my Lyman 25-20 FL die, which lacks an expander button (decaps but does not neck expand) and makes the case neck really tight.

I simply flared the case neck with a pair of pliers, which should be the most horrible flaring tool known to man, stuck a bullet in the case while running it "crooked" in the seating die (tried both Lyman and Lee) and tapped it against the stem.

Withdrawing the bullet revealed no loss of sharpness to the base edge, and nothing of concern has happened when actually shooting bullets loaded this way. The gun shoots as well as it can shoot so loaded. So do my others. The bullets tried in this "base sharpness" test were 12 BHN wheel weights with a little tin added, air cooled.

I don't know about when something "will" or "has to" do this or that. I just try it and see if it actually does.

So I can't comment on the Dillon seating die shown above because I've never used it. I would rather hear about what happens in actual use rather than in theory. So I'll wait to see what others have to say.

While also noting that some people can produce better ammo than others even when using the exact same dies. So the actual suitability of those dies for your particular task depends upon how well they can be used, not how well you may be using them at the moment.

Which would account for variations in opinion. And also maybe why I don't have any great preference in case neck flaring methods. Results have differed little either way. With straight seating and an undamaged bullet heel, that is what I would expect, and actual results don't disappoint.

[sffar]

A good way to get set up with M-Dies is purchase the M1 body, or maybe the M2 as well (longer) and call Lyman to purchase the various diameter plugs you'd like to use. They're a couple of bucks a piece. Just screw them in the die and you can use an M-Die whenever you feel it's needed to augment whatever non Lyman die set you own.
Lyman also makes a powder through expander die that comes with a bunch of similar plugs–not the selection the M-Die has, but pretty good–that seems like it could be useful. Just bought one off a member recently, and I have to say it's a lot of die for the money.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have started a thread in "Group Buy Discussion"
about getting custom made expander Plugs for Lee Dies.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1313351#post1313351

I have been reading about the Lyman 'M' die for some time,
I am ready to buy something soon,
let me know if you are too ?
Jon

[sffar]

I'll have a look-sounds good. I heard Lee would custom make expander plugs in M die style, though Richard Lee in his book defends his own plugs as working perfectly well.
Sam

[390ish]

I really like the M dies. I just buy a lot of the expanders straight from Lyman. they are cheap.