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Gtek
06-18-2011, 09:29 AM
I have seen chatter of this randomly through here. Do any of you Guru's or farther down the road than I have a clear definition of such? Sometimes the more knowledge I consume the more confusing it gets. It appears to me to be a relative term used by those that really do not know. Gtek

Cherokee
06-18-2011, 09:45 AM
Hard cast to me is alloys like Linotype 4/12/84, Lyman #2 5/5/90 and the common commercial CB alloy of 2/6/92 (tin/antimony/lead). These produce bullets of 15 BNH or harder and are harder than necessary for most CB loads, especially with gas checks. Hard cast bullets tend to lead if they do not fit the gun properly, especially if shot a low velocity.

JonB_in_Glencoe
06-18-2011, 09:46 AM
I agree,
it seems that the definition of "Hard cast" is dependant on the context, typically by the person or company selling said boolits.

I can't seem to recall any homecaster here using "Hard cast" as a noun.
Jon

MtGun44
06-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Elmer Keith's "hard cast" was 1/16 tin/lead alloy which I believe is about the same as air
cooled wheelweights today, around 12 BHN. Perfectly fine for full magnum loads in .357 and
.44 mag with plain based of proper fit with good design and lube.

Most commercial boolit suppliers are extremely proud of their "hard cast" which is more like
22 BHN, unfortunately with crayola lube and often undersized. Super hard does not automatically
cover the too small and crummy lube. They work fine in some calibers, terribly in others -
many get bad results with commercial .356 hard cast in 9mm Luger, too small for many
guns.

Harder alloys tend to be good for rifles, esp at higher pressures. I have had some success
with AC WWT in rifles at 1750 fps and below with GCs.

Some water drop everything, thinking that harder is better. This is demostrated as not a
requirement MANY times, but to each his own methods. If all else is right, harder doesn't
usually hurt, some say that it is necessary for best accuracy. Others find accuracy without
hard alloys or heat treating. Many routes to Betheleham.

Much more to the subject, but that is sort of a start.

Bill

Char-Gar
06-18-2011, 11:05 AM
MtGun44 has said it all and said it right on!

RobS
06-18-2011, 11:23 AM
Some water drop everything, thinking that harder is better. This is demostrated as not a
requirement MANY times, but to each his own methods. If all else is right, harder doesn't
usually hurt, some say that it is necessary for best accuracy. Others find accuracy without
hard alloys or heat treating. Many routes to Betheleham.

Much more to the subject, but that is sort of a start.

Bill

+1 Bill

Boolit hardness/toughness is merely a tool for different applications and a firearm will tell you what it prefers. Many shoot softer bullets such as air cooled WW or lead tin binaries and have great results others shoot water quenched or heat treated WW alloy and some mix lino or use lino to manage there shooting needs. There are many here who are very expressive in their beliefs to the point of out-of-control. As I said, the gun will tell the tale.

MtGun44
06-18-2011, 01:02 PM
Rob S said "As I said, the gun will tell the tale. "

Yes - and Mr Target is ALWAYS right. :bigsmyl2:

Bill

Gtek
06-18-2011, 02:13 PM
MtGun44- you da man, and Thank You all others. What knowledge I have was in line. BUT - a click or two off center from the devoted and informed or promoter it becomes clear as mud. Gtek

michiganvet
06-18-2011, 05:58 PM
My Lyman #2 brew works well for most purposes but I have found that WW in a .45 rifle cal is too hard on my sizing press. If I was to do more of that I would use some tumble lube, run them through a Lee sizing die then lube them in the RCBS lubrisizer.

RobS
06-18-2011, 07:23 PM
My Lyman #2 brew works well for most purposes but I have found that WW in a .45 rifle cal is too hard on my sizing press. If I was to do more of that I would use some tumble lube, run them through a Lee sizing die then lube them in the RCBS lubrisizer.

Are you talking about wheel weight alloy that is water quenched/heat treated or air cooled wheel weight alloy being too hard for sizing? I ask because air cooled WW alloy is softer or some very close to Lyman #2 all things being equal being air cooled. I can't see sizing .001 or even .002 being too much grunt for most lube/size presses.

Bret4207
06-19-2011, 08:02 AM
"Hardcast" is one of my special irritants, a pet peeve, a burr under my saddle. Years back I was fully on the "hardcast" bandwagon. I spent a relatively large amount of money on high dollar alloys, tin, crushed antimony, virgin alloys and commercially cast boolits thinking that HARDCAST was the answer my problems. I even spent a lot of money on boolits containing SILVER!!! I mean, jeeze....they're HARDER...they have to be BETTER, right????? My tales of woe, leading, wild inaccuracy and extreme disappointment would fill an entire section here. In short, I was looking for an easy answer to a problem, but the answer I assumed was correct wasn't addressing the problem I had at all!!! (I did the same thing looking for magic lubes, magic fluxes, magic cleaning agents, etc.)

Thanks to guys like Uncle Felix, Chargar, 45 2.1, Buckshot and others here (Shooters actually)I was able to finally get beyond buying into advertising hype. I finally got it straight in my head that FIT is King, that things like alignment, crimp and seating damage, slower powders can be a huge help, that fitting a boolit to the gun and brass to the boolit are far, far more important than buying magic boolits that can cut diamonds and lubes that contain the puss from Angelina Jolies butt zits (I assume Angie has very few zits on her butt or elsewhere, hence the incredible cost of that rare ingredient!). I finally figured out mixing up very large batches of a base alloy and learning to fit my boolits to the gun and my loads to my alloy was a lot less expensive and a lot more rewarding than buying depleted uranium and diamond dust to add to my alloy in the vain hope of making them sooooooo HARD that they are incapable of being distorted, stripped, obturated, gas cut, etc., etc., etc. But at least once a week, if not daily I find someone here speaking of his attempts or desire to find that mythical HARDCAST alloy that will magically fix his problems, problems related to his undersized boolits fired with max loads in a copper fouled barrel, oh, and with out a GC too!

Good luck Gtek. You've embarked on a quest worthy of Sir Lancelot and Gawain and the boys, you're "...off Grailing..." to borrow a phrase from Mr. Twains "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs Court".

Char-Gar
06-19-2011, 05:10 PM
I think it was Will Rogers that said.."Some folks learn by reading. Some folks learn by watching. Some folks learn by listening. The rest have to pee on the electric fence."

Enough of us have peeded on the "hard cast" electric fence to learn not to do that again. But from reading the posts on this board there are still lots of folks out there with full bladders.

Gtek
06-19-2011, 10:42 PM
I have been very lucky! When I steered my firearm lust this direction several years ago the wisdom of age was used. I bought books, the stuff, finding this great place was the icing on the cake. I thought out each step and have had much success with my BOOLIT experience. A couple head scratchers along the way but every time I step back the finger is pointing at me. I will train myself to accept the term as is. Thought I was missing something. And Mr. Bret, WOW, kinda sounded like Dad did. Straight talk/wisdom/sarcasm, a rare quality. Thanks-I miss it! Gtek

44man
06-20-2011, 07:46 AM
I have been very lucky! When I steered my firearm lust this direction several years ago the wisdom of age was used. I bought books, the stuff, finding this great place was the icing on the cake. I thought out each step and have had much success with my BOOLIT experience. A couple head scratchers along the way but every time I step back the finger is pointing at me. I will train myself to accept the term as is. Thought I was missing something. And Mr. Bret, WOW, kinda sounded like Dad did. Straight talk/wisdom/sarcasm, a rare quality. Thanks-I miss it! Gtek
Bret is correct and I think we both agree "tough" is a better word. Take the rifling without a skid and it is tough enough. Correct skid with a GC and it is good again.
Hard for me is WD, WW boolits, soft is anything less. I don't like BHN numbers, only what the boolit does when shot.
For special applications I will add a little tin and antimony to WW metal.
Some store bought boolits are way too hard but most of the makers of LBT series boolits are OK.

Bass Ackward
06-20-2011, 09:54 AM
One of the funniest things is the recollections of Ol Elmer when one wants to prove a point.

Elmer did use a 1 - 16 mix. That is just about as hard as a tin lead mix can get with minor increases up to about 10% which was the old rifle mix.

But Ol Elmer shot a lot of lino too. Sly comments and hints are found throughout his writings. In Sixguns, his comments on his 45 caliber designs, the 454423 and 4545424, are that the bands are too thin and require lino for good performance.

He wouldn't know that unless he was using it.

So the real deal is that Elmer shot everything when he had the barrel steel to handle it and when it was applicable.

michiganvet
06-21-2011, 05:48 PM
Because of the purpose for which they are intended, I doubt that all WW are created equal. Those I poured into the RCBS 405 gr were quenched and really put a strain on my RCBS sizer. My Lyman #2 was brewed from linotype that was tested for specific gravity to determine how much pure lead and 95/5 solder to add. The specific gravity of the final product was just what I was expecting. I brewed about 700# so I knew I would have a consistant alloy for all the bullets I would want to cast with it. I never quenched any boolits from that but I did spring a Lyman #45 about 35 years ago with 311290 being sized to .311, the reason I have the RCBS sizer today.

RobS
06-21-2011, 09:06 PM
michiganvet:

Water quenched WW would definitely be harder than Lyman #2. I see where you are going and sizing a 20+ BHN bullet down much more than .002 is tough on the machines if a person is going at it in one shot.

peerlesscowboy
06-21-2011, 10:48 PM
It's a relative term :violin: