Anybody cast for a Kimber 1911?

[walker77]

I just bought a new custom II I was just curious if there was anything to watch for. What diameter do you cast at? That type of thing. I havent got any sinkers yet to slug my barrel, so i was just curious. Thanks!

[fredj338]

Even within the same manuf, guns & bbls will vary. My friend runs 0.452" in his Kimber Custom w/ great results, It's all I run in 5 diff 1911s, YMMV.

[walker77]

I know they very, but it gives me a good idea where it might be. Hopefully i can just buy an off the shelf mold instead of buying a custom one.

[Love Life]

.452 will work fine.

[birdadly]

I plan to cast for my 3" Ultra. A fellow member here helped me slug my barrel and it was .451" (thanks Snuffy!!) so I've signed up for a couple GB molds at .452". I'm not sure I can wait for the buys to get on the production line though!!

[35remington]

The need for buying a "custom" mould for a recently produced or even old 1911 is just about zero.

.452" is workable in all instances I have experienced or heard of.

Your danger is in over thinking things. Buy, cast, shoot, and be happy. It isn't as complicated as you're making it.

[soldierbilly1]

35Rem has it right. No worries with the 45. I have a Custom II and I use the Lyman 200 gr SWC, runs like a champ! Also, I use the Lee flat nose 200 gr, I think it was really designed for the 45 Long Colt, but they run well in my Kimber. The most accurate is the Lyman SWC, just make sure you get a taper crimp on there or you will get some jams. Good Luck, that Kimber is one of the best shooters I own. Probably shoots the casts better than J's!
Billy boy

[walker77]

The need for buying a "custom" mould for a recently produced or even old 1911 is just about zero.

.452" is workable in all instances I have experienced or heard of.

Your danger is in over thinking things. Buy, cast, shoot, and be happy. It isn't as complicated as you're making it.

I just know all the trouble i have had with my smith and wesson 629 44 mag. Im still fighting that stupid gun. When i get time i need to fire lap it. So that is why i was so worried about the 45.

[captaint]

Walker -- I'm pretty sure that .452 is what most any properly made mold will drop boolits at. Many, a little larger than that. Then, you'll want to size, probably at .452. The 45ACP is real easy and cast friendly. Easy to cast the boolits and easy to load for. A Lyman "M" die is great for expanding those cases too. Do a little reading and if you haven't got dies yet, consider getting the Lyman set with the M die. Good luck, you'll have lots of fun. enjoy Mike

[Keyston44]

I cast the Lee TL452. I tumble lube it and it works fine out of 3 different Kimbers and a Colt. I'm more than happy with this $20 dollar mold.
I have to say the 45 acp is the easiest caliber I cast for.

Key

[gray wolf]

Welcome
Last year I cast for my 45 Springfield and my buds Kimber Custom 2.
Same loads and no different technique for either gun. My sizer is .4525 and it works fine.
Any decent lube will work. We both shot #68 SWC, round nose, 200 grain flat nose
and all kinds of HP bullets. same OAL for the two pistols.
If I recall we shot at least 10,000 rounds between us. I changed extractors on both guns at the end of the summer and recoil springs into about 2,500 rounds.
I had zero malfunctions and Rob had one premature slide lock (week mag spring )
This was all combat type shooting, Many double taps and full mag dumps.
I would say you are going to be just fine. Keep it simple and don't over think it.
Stay with some good guidelines for loading and be safe.

[35remington]

There is absolutely no need for a special "M" die as all manufacturers make a case mouth flaring die in all their straight wall pistol calibers.....in effect, they have "M" dies too, and there is nothing special about the Lyman version. Lee's powder through expand die has a shorter parallel section on its expander but it still expands cases fine for cast bullets unless they are overly soft. RCBS has a die very similar to Lyman's, as does Hornady, etc. Lyman does not have a "lock" on pistol cartridge dies. All flare similar to how Lyman "M" dies work.

No need to over think the dies, either.

A 1911 doesn't have oversize chamber mouths, forcing cones, "thread choke" or any of the other revolver issues.

As I said, get a popular design, cast, and shoot. No rocket science needed.

Gray Wolf, absolutely no need to change extractors habitually (if you think you must after only 5000 rounds.....something's wrong!) unless your guns are frequently push feeding. If they are, then fix the problem instead of changing extractors.

An extractor should have a life of far more than 5000 rounds.

[geargnasher]

I have a Kimber Tactical Pro II and it is the only gun I own that won't shoot cast without leading to buggary. Due to the bushingless barrel I can't swap it out. Turns out the barrel is tapered, and the wrong way. It's about .453" at the muzzle and .4518" at the chamber end of the rifling. Too many J-words through it over the years, I guess. I can use Titegroup, .4533 boolits of soft lead, and run them at about 650 fps and it doesn't lead, but they would need a hollow base to go any faster without leading.

Hopefully yours is better.

Oh, BTW, if you want a really good mould for the 1911, get one of these: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230L-D.png

Gear

[walker77]

Im looking at getting a 230 grain round nose. All my molds for my 44 mag and 38 and 9mm are lyman. Should i give RCBS a try?

[geargnasher]

Im looking at getting a 230 grain round nose. All my molds for my 44 mag and 38 and 9mm are lyman. Should i give RCBS a try?

Lyman has good designs for the .45 ACP as well, but their quality and service have certainly gone to pot in recent years. You can just about guarantee any mould you get from them will be undersized.

RCBS makes excellent moulds, but Tom at Accurate Molds makes them on a custom basis and the quality exceeds even RCBS IMO. The boolit I recommended is exactly 230 grains from WW metal and will be made with the driving bands to the exact diameter you specify with the alloy you specify. Can be had in brass, aluminum, or steel in up to a three cavity, and the blocks fit the cheap-but-good Lee six-cavity handles. Cost for cost handles and all Tom's moulds are about the same. He has other good designs as well, but I had him make that one just for my Kimber because of Kimber's stupid oversized teat on the slide lock lever which demands a reduced-size nose base to keep from going to lock prematurely. Or you can just file about an eighth of an inch off the thing and shoot RN boolits.

Gear

[walker77]

I cant afford a custom mold at this time

[BulletFactory]

Gear, what was the part # of the .45 mold you liked? I asked you once before, but I have no idea what thread it was on, so looking for it would be pointless. Thanks.

Walker, I cant afford this hobby either, but I do it anyhow. It just makes it more worth it when you do get something nice. Start throwing quarters into a pan if you have to, but definitely go get a mold from Tom at Accurate, you have no idea what you're missing.

Just for perspective, I put a P-22 in layaway on Jan 12, I just got it out the other day, and only because I cancelled my cable, and got a check I wasnt looking for, it covered the last 120$. I literaly put 75 to 80% of the money I had into that little gun, the rest went on a can of powder, some primers, and the occasional odd or end that people need here and there. I know where you're at. This whole reloading thing is a challenge for me, but its the only way I can shoot at all. One thing I regret, was the 65$ I wasted on a Lyman mold, you can be sure that after buying the brass one from tom, that I should have done to begin with, I will never buy another factory mold again.

[geargnasher]

BF, I posted the link in post #13, the PN and and dimensional drawings are both there.

Just for perspective, RCBS two-cavity moulds are $71 at MidwayUSA, and handles are $41, not many other handles will fit RCBS moulds with out modification. Lee mould handles are $13, a two-cavity aluminum mould from Tom costs $89 plus about $8 shipping, which is less than Midway's shipping. Brass or steel, or three cavity, are more expensive, but you don't have to get an iron three-banger from Tom (at $161) if you don't need to. Tom will also make it to your specs and guarantee it will be right, no B.S. I'm really not insisting, I'm just pointing out some facts about why I made the recommendation for this custom mould maker to begin with. If money is really tight, get an aluminum single cavity for $74.

Normally for someone on a budget I'd recommend a Lee two-banger, but the 1911 .45 is one gun for which Lee doesn't make a good design in my opinion, and I own or have owned an example of every single standard-production .452" mould Lee makes except the 200-RF.

Gear

[rintinglen]

Gear, Gear, Gear, I like custom molds as much as the next guy, (my wife would suggest that I like them too much, and has the credit card bills to prove it) but for a .45 ACP I can not recommend a 74 dollar single cavity custom over a multi-cavity factory mold, especially when the factory stuff appears on E-bay and at gun shoes all the time for about 60-65 dollars handles included. For a new guy, probably not overly compensated, who is trying to shoot more on the cheap, custom ain't the way to go. I'd spend some time reading up here, saving my nickles, and see if I couldn'y find a nice used RCBS 2-holer 45-200 or an older Lyman 452-460 or 452-374. They make good boolits, they last, and it takes a lot of expertise and experience to out-shoot them with any other cast boolit. (though I personally haven't been stung by the undersized boolit problem, every Lyman mold I have bought new in the last ten years (six or seven, IIRC) has had venting problems.)

[walker77]

Gear, what was the part # of the .45 mold you liked? I asked you once before, but I have no idea what thread it was on, so looking for it would be pointless. Thanks.

Walker, I cant afford this hobby either, but I do it anyhow. It just makes it more worth it when you do get something nice. Start throwing quarters into a pan if you have to, but definitely go get a mold from Tom at Accurate, you have no idea what you're missing.

Just for perspective, I put a P-22 in layaway on Jan 12, I just got it out the other day, and only because I cancelled my cable, and got a check I wasnt looking for, it covered the last 120$. I literaly put 75 to 80% of the money I had into that little gun, the rest went on a can of powder, some primers, and the occasional odd or end that people need here and there. I know where you're at. This whole reloading thing is a challenge for me, but its the only way I can shoot at all. One thing I regret, was the 65$ I wasted on a Lyman mold, you can be sure that after buying the brass one from tom, that I should have done to begin with, I will never buy another factory mold again.

No, i literally cant afford it. My wife works for her self and lost two customers, she is now down to only one customer. Things are going to be tight soon

[MtGun44]

I'm normally the one saying "you have to slug the bbl". For .45 ACP 1911s, I'd say you are
on good ground to just size to .452, set the seating depth by using the dismounted barrel
as a gage, and the TC the same way. Inadequate TC is the number one problem with
handloaded .45 ACP ammo, so make sure you drop check into the chamber before you
load up a bunch. A loaded round should drop into the chamber and fall in to the level of
the end of the hood. Max 1 lb force to seat the round. If more, LOA is too long or inadequate
TC. I push 1/3 or 1/2 of the brass thickness into the lead with TC.

I've loaded and shot at least 1/4 million of these guys over the last 30+ yrs.

Good gun, except for the silly firing pin lock baloney. My series 1 Kimber Custom has won me
a good number of matches over the years and has maybe 50,000 rounds through it or some
more.

Bill

[walker77]

MTGun44, Do i even need to size the bullet?

[MtGun44]

Sizing is only necessary if the as-cast diameter is larger than you want or can use. If the
as-cast is .452 or .453, see if a sample round will chamber properly and if so, go for it.

Slightly oversized is only an issue if it causes chambering problems.

Bill

[walker77]

Ok, thanks!

[BulletFactory]

Thanks Gear, I looked right past the link. :oops:

Walker, I hear you man, just start stacking pennies, you'll get there. Does your state have bottle deposit? In Michigan its 10 cents a can, buys almost all of my primers. Check into scrap metal recycling, you can just pick up metal wherever you see it, it adds up quick, especially on garbage day. Watch for garage sales, then come by on the following garbage day. Some things they throw away were for sale the day before, and can go straight to ebay.

[HollowPoint]

My Kimber Classic Custom 1911 is the reason I got into bullet casting in the first place.

I started out with a Lyman Devastator mold then gradually bought then sold off various other bullet molds. Now it's the Devastator mold exclusively.

.4525 is what they drop from my mold. I don't resize them and it works just fine; with excellent accuracy.

HollowPoint

[offshore44]

I turned in the brass that people leave laying around and purchased a RCBS-45-230-RN mold, a nose punch and a 0.452" sizer die with the proceeds. (I'm scoash on cash as well) Took me about nine months to collect enough brass to pay for all the stuff I needed, that I didn't already have.

The mold drops 1/2 WW - 1/2 PB right at 0.452". I pretty much use whatever casting material that I have on hand as raw material, lube with whatever I happen to have around, use whatever powder that I have that the books have a load for. I shoot the heck out of two 45's, the wife's Kimber Classic II, and my Colt Gold Cup. It costs me a little under six cents every time I pull the trigger, and the results are great. The 45 ACP is not that demanding to cast and load for. Sometimes I get a little lead in the barrel, but I just shrug and clean it out. Not any worse than cleaning out a little copper fouling.

[walker77]

My Kimber Classic Custom 1911 is the reason I got into bullet casting in the first place.

I started out with a Lyman Devastator mold then gradually bought then sold off various other bullet molds. Now it's the Devastator mold exclusively.

.4525 is what they drop from my mold. I don't resize them and it works just fine; with excellent accuracy.

HollowPoint


How do you lube them? Ive tried to pan lube before and never had any luck with it.

[MtGun44]

Done right pan lubing can be pretty easy. One of the neatest tricks I've seen (but never tried,
don't pan lube any more) is putting the lube and boolits in the freezer once hardened and
then smacking it on something to drive the boolits thru the now brittle frozen lube.

I always made a cake cutter from a cartridge case of the right diam (prob need .45 70 for
.45 ACP - I was doing 9mm and used a 8mm case expanded to .36 cal) with the head
cut off, second boolit pushes the first up and out.

Good luck. There are a couple of really nicely done threads on pan lubing, one very
recent one with excellent pix, too. In the last couple of days, IIRC.

Bill

[BulletFactory]

Which lube did you try? Do you use those handy silicone trays? I swear those were invented by a pan lubing bullet caster. This shows for 17$, but I got mine for 10 at Bed Bath and Beyond at the mall.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=silicone+baking+trays&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=adV&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=583&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=5829435004540759576&sa=X&ei=WoH9TYLEApG4twfz58G6Dg&ved=0CGwQ8wIwAzgK

ETA, get hold of a turkey baster, I got a nice glass one for 5$

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=glass+turkey+baster&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=3591725368683464446&sa=X&ei=5oH9TaOVMsybtwedtMC8Dg&ved=0CCsQ8wIwAA

[MikeS]

There are many standard moulds that work fine in a 1911. Many can be found used, and you don't need to go to eBay to find them, many forum members (myself included) are selling moulds right now in the swap & sell forum. If money is tight, you can get a used Lee 2 cavity mould for about $15.00! Once you've been casting for a bit, and/or have more disposable money, then you can go the custom route.

[MBTcustom]

I have several 1911s. None are a kimber but I have fired my reloads in a freinds Kimber with no ill effect. I used Lyman molds for years and got tired of all the time it takes to cast up a bate of boolits, so I bought the lee 6 cavity 230gr RN mold. I also discovered tumble lubing with LLA.
I am in the same boat as you, My wife has MS and she is disabled, I have a two year old girl and I am the sole breadwinner for the house......and I shoot a lot.:smile:
The truth is, if you can afford to shoot .22lr you can feed your .45. At the walmart down the street, 550 remington goldbullet .22LR ammo costs $22. I reload my .45 for $26 for 550 rounds. the trick is to find a fast powder so you get more shots out of 7000 grains. I use 3.5gr of hodgdon clays behind a 230gr bullet.
So you figure:
7000/3.5=2000 $30 perlb/2000= $.015 each
primers cost me $32 perK so $32/1000 = $.032 each
cases for the .45 last a loooong time so I count them as free
boolits are made from lead that I picked up for close to free so I figure no value.

That gives you a cost of $.047each
$2.35 for 50
$4.7 for 100
$47.00 per 1000!!!!!
Who says you cant afford to shoot? with figures like those, gas is more of a cost factor than ammo! Rifle is the expensive sport because it drains a pound of powder so quickly, and you must have those slow burning powders for accuracy but if I'm too broke to shoot my pistols then its time to go hunting, in which case all that practice will pay off.
It does not take much to get a .45 to shoot more accurately than you do and accuracy is kind of a tongue in cheek issue anyway because .45 is a self defense weapon (never heard of somebody hunting with a 1911). Even so I get solid copenhagen lid sized groups at 25 yards out of a 3.5" barrel. More importantly, I can pull my pistol and start shooting from the hip all the way up to fully extended, and put every one of them in a paper plate that is 10feet away with my carry gun and that is a far more important skill with a 1911 than shooting lemons at 50 yards off a bench IMHO.

[walker77]

I have several 1911s. None are a kimber but I have fired my reloads in a freinds Kimber with no ill effect. I used Lyman molds for years and got tired of all the time it takes to cast up a bate of boolits, so I bought the lee 6 cavity 230gr RN mold. I also discovered tumble lubing with LLA.
I am in the same boat as you, My wife has MS and she is disabled, I have a two year old girl and I am the sole breadwinner for the house......and I shoot a lot.:smile:
The truth is, if you can afford to shoot .22lr you can feed your .45. At the walmart down the street, 550 remington goldbullet .22LR ammo costs $22. I reload my .45 for $26 for 550 rounds. the trick is to find a fast powder so you get more shots out of 7000 grains. I use 3.5gr of hodgdon clays behind a 230gr bullet.
So you figure:
7000/3.5=2000 $30 perlb/2000= $.015 each
primers cost me $32 perK so $32/1000 = $.032 each
cases for the .45 last a loooong time so I count them as free
boolits are made from lead that I picked up for close to free so I figure no value.

That gives you a cost of $.047each
$2.35 for 50
$4.7 for 100
$47.00 per 1000!!!!!
Who says you cant afford to shoot? with figures like those, gas is more of a cost factor than ammo! Rifle is the expensive sport because it drains a pound of powder so quickly, and you must have those slow burning powders for accuracy but if I'm too broke to shoot my pistols then its time to go hunting, in which case all that practice will pay off.
It does not take much to get a .45 to shoot more accurately than you do and accuracy is kind of a tongue in cheek issue anyway because .45 is a self defense weapon (never heard of somebody hunting with a 1911). Even so I get solid copenhagen lid sized groups at 25 yards out of a 3.5" barrel. More importantly, I can pull my pistol and start shooting from the hip all the way up to fully extended, and put every one of them in a paper plate that is 10feet away with my carry gun and that is a far more important skill with a 1911 than shooting lemons at 50 yards off a bench IMHO.

What part of Arkansas are you from? My wife use to work at pettit jean state park before we got married.

[HollowPoint]

Up until lately I used LLA to lube my bullets. Not neccessarily because I preferred it over other bullet lubes; it's just that when I first started casting bullets I didn't know about all the other types of lubes available.

I've since started using the hybrid LLA lube formula listed in some of the other threads in this forum. It seems to work just as well and, if mixed properly, it increases the amount of lube I have on hand and doesn't take as long to dry.

Unless I was loading store bought cast bullets that were already lubed with something else, I can't recall using anything other than LLA or its variants with anything I've cast myself; be it pistol or rifle.

HollowPoint

[MBTcustom]

Big 10-4 there HollowPoint, I started using 45/45/10 on all my pistols. you just dont push pistol boolits fast enough, nor are most folks looking for the enth degree of accuracy, to justify all the time it takes to pan lube or lube-size. Heck I dont even size my pistol boolits anymore. I just shoot 'em as they drop and call it a day. I cant discern any difference in accuracy at all.

[MT Gianni]

I guess I have an odd-ball bbl. My Kimber Target will not accept a .452" bullet but has to have .451".

[MtGun44]

match chamber, MT. Early ones were cut very tight.

Bill

[35remington]

Which is one of the dumber ideas Kimber had. Cutting a match chamber in a gun with a moveable barrel and autoloading action is not at all smart. Sorta like the external extractor they tried to foist on the public.

[geargnasher]

35, glad you're having such a charming and happy Father's day. I just wish you'd quit taking it out on us.

The external extractor Kimber makes works flawlessly, is easier to clean, and is a vast overall improvement to the series 70 design, and that opinion is based on the experience of failure rates between internal and external extractors on guns in my posession. So far the score is: Kimber, 0 failures, SA 1911A1 3, Colt GC Stainless match: 1 failure. BTW I shot the Kimber enough in competition with J-words to significantly wear the bore.

Match chambers in and auto work fine if you know anything about reloading. Kimber makes an EXTREMELY accurate floating barrel auto. Maybe you should try shooting one sometime, it might surprise you.

Gear

[cephas53]

Have a custom II, cast is all that run through it now. Used a 2 cavity Lee 228 gr round nose, but since one dropped slightly under .452 I was never satisfied with it. Took the plunge for a NOE 230 gr RN, and haven't looked back. Drops just under .453 and weighs in just over 225 gr with range lead. Lube with allox, charge with Unique. Way more accurate than I can shoot it.

[WildmanJack]

Partner, I only shoot cast thru my Kimber, and it's a tack driver... I use an H&G #68 and they are perfect..
Jack

[35remington]

Gear, the accuracy potential of a fixed barrel with a standard chamber in a machine rest exceeds that of a 1911 with a match chambered barrel. Every time.

Therefore, what advantage for a match barrel? The limiting factor for a 1911 is the loose barrel/frame/slide fit so it may function. Tight or loose, the pistol itself is the limiting factor. Not the chamber. A tighter chamber won't make a bit of difference in an otherwise well fitted 1911.

The "tight" match barrel that barely accepts the cartridge, diameter wise, is only a downside and is no enhancement to accuracy in a 1911.

It is an invitation to jams as the gun dirts up. Perhaps sooner than later with cast bullets and less than absolutely perfect ammunition, which is common. Perhaps the fact that they no longer do this confirms that it is less than wise.

It's sorta like the proverbial lipstick on a pig. Fit of other parts far exceeds it in importance.

If external extractors were so great, perhaps the Kimber adherents would have demanded they keep them.

They did not, but rather "voted with their feet" in complaining about them. Perhaps they didn't see much good in them either, as did most of us.

My Father's Day has been fine.....just pointing out that Kimber has less than sound ideas some of the time. I won't get into the "raptor" bird feathers and other weird things they put on their pistols, thankfully, as that's more a matter of taste than sound decision making and not germane to accuracy potential.

I'm a stickler for correctness, and Kimber's actions in these two areas were less than correct. Both by actual trial (chamber) and consensus (extractor). The extractor takes away from the design concept, apparently by majority vote.

Hard to argue with.

[waksupi]

Good points. It has been a fad to have match chambers cut in custom hunting rifles in recent years. Not for me, thank you. I want some room for that stray speck of dust or sand that may get into the chamber.

[felix]

Yep, the order of the day is leave the tight chambers for match guns only. Other guns can benefit from industry standard minimum chambers when shot in clean conditions only (no dust flying around). Field guns should be chosen at random hoping for a fairly new reamer having being used for a chamber. ... felix

[BD]

I have three Kimbers and shoot cast in all of them. All prefer boolits sized .451. I put 200 rounds of BD acp through my series 1, 5" Custom Classic today bringing it's round count to about 72,000. Ran like a champ.

All of my Kimbers have what I'd consider to be a pretty normal chamber. If my 5" gun had a "match chamber", I suspect I'd need to clean it more often than I do. Which is every 700 - 800 rounds.
IMHO the difference is in the throat. I can't seat boolits sized .452 into the throat without shaving some lead.
BD

[BulletFactory]

Now Im getting jealous, the Custom Eclipse II is the gun I've been dreaming about since I first laid eyes on one. Id have it already but I had to buy a SOCOM 16 in case the assault weapons ban shows up again. With Obummer, and Mitt as the likely choices, Im a little concerned. The 1911's woll probably fly below the radar because of the relatively low magazine capacity.

Oh dear, I didnt mean to get started.

[MtGun44]

Watch out for the Kimber copy of the Bomar in the Eclipse. A friend had one and after the
second one flew apart within a few hundred rounds, the gun in the road. Kimber was great
about replacing them, but not having the gun for quite a while each time was a PITA.

Maybe they have fixed it now and they never, ever break, like a real Bomar.

Bill

[BulletFactory]

do you have more info on this?

[MtGun44]

Eclipse uses a Kimber built adj rear sight that looks identical to a Bowmar but the
rear sight blade fell off after shooting for a few hundred rounds. Sent the gun back, got new
sight. Failed the same way. Sent it back and got a new sight and sold the gun. Failure
was breakage of the attachment of the rear blade to the adjusting portion that moves
laterally inside the sight portion that moves vertically. Faulty design or materials it would
seem. I HOPE that they have redesigned it or changed materials, but have no info.
Real Bowmar sights NEVER break in my experience.

Not my gun, owned by a good friend.

All I know.

Bill

[BulletFactory]

OK thanks. I was going with the nuclear fixed sights anyhow.