Hello There!

[Casty]

I'm new today to Cast Boolits. I'm also a custom rifle gunsmith from central WA St, and own a newer Winchester High Wall in 45-90, as well as a nicely customized 1874 C. Sharps, also in 45-90. I also load for a 45-70 Marlin 1895 circa 1978, that has Micro-Groove rifling, which I'm told is (or alternately, is NOT...) a problem with cast bullets.

I also just acquired an 1894 Winchester Commemorative, with very nice wood and an octagonal bbl, in .38-55, and if it actually shoots OK, and was not just intended to be a gold-plated wall hanger, I'll be taking that one on the road for some matches as well (but only AFTER I have the 24k gold removed and replaced with either color case hardening or a nice matte silver finish. I mean, what self-respecting rifleman arrives with a gold-plated gun to a match? The laughter would be too distracting!).

I've shot the Quigley and others, but always with cast bullets from commercial bullet companies.

I've also read Mike V's excellent book about Shooting The Old Buffl'r Rifles, and learned a lot there about casting your own, but I have so far resisted the urge to just go out and buy all the right stuff.

Problem is, I'm also a curmudgeonly 64 yrs old, a raving perfectionist, and therefore would just have to have the higher-end stuff, not the lower-end furnace, standard molds, etc., because I'd end up upgrading to that better stuff in the end. I'd be going after SAECO/Redding, plus custom Paul Jones molds, etc. etc. as per Mike's advice, in order to cast flawless match-quality bullets.

As well, my subscription to Black Powder Cartridge magazine (thx Steve G!) shows all sorts of ads for various special trick stuff for making truly nifty cast bullets. And then there's that learning curve, where I'd be casting useless bullets for the first while.

Question: are properly cast bullets by an experienced caster with good equipment truly measurably better (dimensionally and/or performance-wise) than the better commercial bullets out of, say, Montana Bullet Co, Buffalo Arms Co. and the like?? And is it also cost-effective once you forget about the $700+ or so you have to spend to get into casting in the first place? Given only, lets' say, 2 - 3 molds custom per caliber (.458 and .375)?

I remain: "Worried in Washington"

[felix]

I know your quandary, for having been there myself years ago as a BR guy (perfectionist) only. There is only ONE answer that works in your situation: "FIOGOI" Figure it out and get over it. In other words, what are you interested in? If its on the engineering side, jump in with both feet. If it's on the shooting side, leave the boolit making to others having the patience to make custom boolits for YOUR gun. Always do one gun at a time until perfection using YOUR specs, not some record holder's. ... felix

[onondaga]

Spending lots of money is not a necessity. Many people here can take a $20 Lee boolit mold that someone else has given up on and turn it into a mold that will nicely cast match boolits to fit their own rifle in about an hour.

Casting is my primary hobby, I enjoy it more than shooting and have been casting since age 5. Now I am 61.

Gary

[44man]

I have to step in too. It does not take the best or the largest amount of money.
I use a Lee 20# pot, a Lyman ladle and all kinds of molds plus those I made myself.
I like Lee push through boolit size dies I lap to fit what I need.
It is what YOU do that counts and throwing money at a gun will not make it shoot better.
Think of the perfect checkering job you did with hand tools, nothing like it.
Boolits from Lee molds have shot many 1" or less groups at 100 yards from my revolvers.
BPCR will take better designs so you can get a mold cut for the boolit that does best from your rifles. Some here will make super molds for anything you need.
The boolits you mention are good boolits and you can make them as good.
Just buy a good mold you need and go cheap for the rest. A Lee pot is only $49 and a ladle is $16. A $3000 casting setup will do no better.
You are in the right place to learn.

[geargnasher]

First, boolit quality comes from good techniques in making them, not from premium tools. Just about any mould in good condition can be made to cast match-quality boolits by an experienced caster employing the proper methods for the mould and alloy he's using. You will not cast a better boolit the first session from a $200 Hoch nose-pour than you will from a $20 Lee mould just because the Hoch is "better quality", the quality comes from learning how each mould likes to cast, your pace, where to lube it, when to open a vent line, how tight to get the sprue plate, just exactly how the mould likes the lead to be poured into it, how big to make the sprue puddle, etc. etc.

Second, Micro-groove rifling is every bit as good, if not better, than cut rifling. Why it has a bad rap with cast boolits comes from a lot of published mis-information (particularly from Lyman) and the propagation of this bad data combined with a lack of understanding of what needs to be done differently with micro-groove rifling. The rifling isn't cut, it's extruded by pulling a plug through the barrel that swages the rifling. An effect of this is that the BORE (nominal) diameter is often a little "fat" for caliber, for example many .30 calibers are .302" or .303" instead of .300" like they should be. The groove dimension is also usually a bit on the large side with micro-groove rifles, usually about .309" in a .30. What this all means is that a typical .309" cast boolit won't shoot worth beans because the nose will be unsupported by the lands, and the groove diameter will be too small to seal well and at even moderate velocities obturation of the bore will fail and the resulting gas-cutting of the boolit will cause lead particles to be blown ahead of the boolit and ironed-on the bore by it's passage, creating the lead buildup commonly experienced with these barrels. The solution is simple, get a mould that casts a bigger boolit, (usually about 1-2 thousandths over groove diameter), and only partially size your brass to only give you about .001" neck tension (interference fit) when the boolit is seated in the neck. With .45/70 and .45/90, you have a unique advantage here also, since the cases taper remarkably. If you partially size the case, running it only far enough into the die to give the aforementioned interference fit with the boolit, you will save the brass life and not damage or squeeze undersized the boolits you seat in the cases. You can also get expander spuds made for BPCR that are larger and will allow soft lead boolits to be seated with no damage. The micro-groove rifling can also run a bit shallower, but due to the number of grooves, the engagement area of the engraves is actually more, so "stripping" the rifling is a virtual impossibility.

I'd say overall, get a Lee melting pot, a Lyman, a GOOD casting thermometer, Rowell-type casting ladle, a couple of Lee moulds, a bottle of Bullplate Sprue lube from the Bullshop (only available here on this site, see the Vendor Sponsor section), and a Lee .457" push-through sizer die that you can hone out to the size you need for your guns. Check out the lube recipe forum and find the lube you need to buy or make, use the "pan lube" technique to apply it and the push-through sizer and your reloading press to size the lubed boolits, load some and have fun! For about $150 or less including shipping you'll be set to make about as good a boolit as can be made, the rest is up to you to learn how to do it. We're always here to help.

Gear

[telebasher]

Welcome Casty ! As I read through your thread it's obvious to me that you have read enough about what it takes to cast and assemble match grade BPCR ammunition. My question to you is what are you waiting for ? Mike's recommended moulds and pots, sizing dies, lubes are top of the line, without equal. Buy them so you can get started having fun too ! Casting bullets is a hands on hobby that you'll never stop learning or experimenting with. Be prepared for some frustrations and some success. As you gain experience success becomes the norm. Once again, welcome, and get started cause we're not getting any younger.

[Southern Son]

Welcome, Casty. You have come to the right place to get serious about casting. About the equipment, I am making better bullets now with an RCBS thermometer, an RCBS ladle and a home made gas powered casting pot setup than when I was using my Lee bottom pour pot.

More important than expensive melting pots and moulds is consistent temperature of the melt and consistent technique in filling the mould.

If you are loading big boolits for your 45/70 (bigger than 400 grains), then you might get better results by casting with a ladle. I don't know why, but it made a big difference for me. Knowing the correct way to pour the lead into the mould with a ladle makes a big difference, too.

Whatever you need to know, someone here will probably be able to help.

[Lizard333]

Question: are properly cast bullets by an experienced caster with good equipment truly measurably better (dimensionally and/or performance-wise) than the better commercial bullets out of, say, Montana Bullet Co, Buffalo Arms Co. and the like?? And is it also cost-effective once you forget about the $700+ or so you have to spend to get into casting in the first place? Given only, lets' say, 2 - 3 molds custom per caliber (.458 and .375)?

I remain: "Worried in Washington"

Bottom line, your bullets, made specifically for your rifle, made from your alloy, sized to your exact needs, and lubed with your specific needs, will be the best boolets you can produce. No manufacturer can meet these needs. Just you.

For 200 dollars you can produce these boolits that are intended for each and every gun you have. For most of us here it is a hobby that we enjoy. Is it cost effective? Is spending the money we do on making things go bang cost effectives? I think it is. When I can produce 100 accurate rounds for my pistols for four dollars a box, versus 40+ if I were to buy jacketed, than yes to me, it is very cost effective. I got into reloading to save money and to produce more accurate rounds for each of my guns than I can get from factory rounds.

I agree with previous posts, get some basic equipment and produce some boolits. You won't regret it. Have fun!!

[Bret4207]

Welcome Casty. You have enough life under your belt to have noticed that you can hand the very best tools to an 18 year old kid and mediocre tools to an old master craftsman. You know who will produce the best results. I like to say, "It ain't the arrow, it's the indian shooting it!". Nice tools are a joy to work with, no doubt, but I've made some of my very best, most accurate boolits with a bent gravy ladle, an old bread pan for a pot, all heated on a camp stove, lubed by hand and sized with a ho'made tapered sizer die made from a cut off piece of 22 rifle barrel. What you choose to do is up to you, but I'd start with the simple stuff and see if you even like casting. It's not for every one.

Yes, you can produce far better boolits than you can buy. It's not even worth considering the question IMO. The issue is, will you take the time and effort to learn to produce them? Again, that's up to you.

[Wayne Smith]

I think you have your answers. As a self confessed perfectionist you will master the art. You've done it before. Quality of tools is up to you and your pocketbook. Alloy quality also. There is no question that you can fit your rifles better with the boolits you make than ncan any caster who does not have those rifles in hand and shooting them. Dr. Gun is the final decider, nothing else. You can make the necessary adjustments better than anyone else.

[Casty]

(BTW, any ladies here abouts? Just curious if the fairer (well, mostly.... sometimes they's downright unfair...) sex haunts boolit casting boards....

Lots of great encouragment here. Of course, it's like that first computer I bought (forgetting that Sinclair kit I assembled... Yikes, huh? Now I've really dated myself...) which was a Commodore 64. I sweated that purchase out, thinking it would, in all liklihood, end up unused, in the bottom of my closet, with cat droppings on it!

Then I found it very useful, and like the rest of us, we'd all be quite unmanageable if we had to give up our computers....

Anyhow, I do have that ladle, and Paul Jones said that was the best way to pour (BTW, he's a very nice fella and spent at least 1/2 h+ talking to me on the phone last week. Unasuming and of course knowledgeable. He said pretty much the same thing as you guys, and even said I should just start with a Lyman or other standard bullet mould. Not sure if they make 'em for 500+ weights in .458. And of course, I assume they don't come slightly oversize, do they?

Q: Can you operate a push-through sizer in a SAECO or is this proprietary to Lee?

I don't mind buying, as a first effort, one good mould (Oh BTW, a "mould" is a Brit/Canuck "mold", just in case you thought I was illiterate... I was born up in Kanuckistan, the nearest socialistic country to us, and one to be wary of politically, since after all, socialists always know best, esp. about your gunz... I'm just sayin'...).

so... it's just a matter of ordering and jumping in, huh? I'll let you know if I burn down my shop in the process.

Quick add-on Q: does anyone effectively hunt with cast bullets in the high-powered cartridge category? Like what you ask? well, I'm thinking of, say, a cast 6.5mm boolit for my 6.5-06 Ackley. It would probably only get started at, what, 1500 fps? Only good out to about 100 yds or so?

Onwards & Upwards!

[mroliver77]

Yep Casty, you have a lot of learning to do! I am jealous! If you read the hunting section you will see that many of us hunt with cast boolits. I run the 311440 2200fps in my 30-30 and it will anchor a 200lb white tail very efficiently! I shoot a 55gr boolit from my .22 Hornet @ 2450fps getting 1" - 1.5" groups. Blows garden munchers a new ...... Guys shoot 300 -350gr boolits from the Marlin 1895 around 2000fps. (not this kid!) what a thumper! It is easy to shoot a gas checked boolit at 1800fps. 2000fps is a little harder but if you follow the basics "rules" not hard. With a little advanced cast skills 2400 -2500fps can be attained. Some push cast harder yet!
Here is a good (free) read from a well respected feller on cast boolits.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf
Jay

[Char-Gar]

Felix has given you excellent and practical advise. I would follow it were I you.

[littlejack]

Casty:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.com.
What does a flawless match quality boolit look like?
My Lyman 457125 mould, that cast boolits with little imperfections,(mostly from the alloy) will
make boolits that my Uberti Highwall will shoot 5 in < 1" at 100 yards.
Jack

[Hang Fire]

How true, as others have pointed out that only a big $ investment results in good shooting firearms with cast.

I have a ugly MN 7.62x54 got off neighbor for 25 bucks, it was bubbarized by someone in the past, but I have fell in love with the misbegotten thing for cast boolits. My best boolit for it is a Lee 8mm (.324") 175 grn sized down to .316", it shoots like a dream come true with several rifle powders at around 1800fps. (from RL manuals, have not chronographed loads)

[Cherokee]

I'll just say Welcome ! and let the match shooters make the comments.

[HORNET]

Casty,
Welcome to the addiction. Hang onto your wallet if you visit the Group Buy section. There's also a sticky with a list of mold makers under the Molds...Maintenance and Design forum and links to the catalogs of several in the Vendors section. A couple of members have reported significant problems with recent Saeco/Redding molds and the size is something of a gamble on recent Lyman production.
As far as your question in post #11 on the ladies, there a few certifiably female casters on the board and a few other female members as well. Rule 16 does not necessarily apply here.
Read the Stickies and Classics sections and you can learn a tremendous amount. Don't believe everything you read about cats and sheep...

[smoked turkey]

Casty:
First welcome. You have done the right thing by stopping by here. Good ideas and experience is here to help us all with what ever snafu occurs. I understand your delimma on what exactly to do and which way to turn. I believe from reading the thread up to this point you have your answer. There is a lot of reading to do to learn about any "hands on" thing such as the casting/handloading/shooting discipline. I say consistency from cartridge to cartridge will result in more than satisfactory results. When I say cartridge it takes into account all the casting and loading process. From your posts I can say I believe your rifles are up to snuff, so you might not have to fiddle with them. However they each have certain likes and dislikes just like people. I am sure you will discover them quickly. I recommend you also purchase some of the manuals dedicated to the various functions of this hobby. The Lyman cast boolit manual comes to mind as a first choice. You are about to have some of the most gratifying times of your life as you craft and shoot your own ammo. Enjoy!

[HangFireW8]

Casty, I'll try to address your questions directly from my viewpoint.



Question: are properly cast bullets by an experienced caster with good equipment truly measurably better (dimensionally and/or performance-wise) than the better commercial bullets out of, say, Montana Bullet Co, Buffalo Arms Co. and the like??

The difference between your expert-made boolits and theirs is, you can alloy, cast and size for your gun, while they have to make them for all guns. If your gun has very standard land, groove, and throat dimensions, and is not a problematic model, commercial cast boolits may be fine. Or not. You have to try them in your gun to find out.



And is it also cost-effective once you forget about the $700+ or so you have to spend to get into casting in the first place? Given only, lets' say, 2 - 3 molds custom per caliber (.458 and .375)?

Well, it's still a hobby, so you'll be doing nothing but spending more money on it. :) But in short, it's like taking up reloading, only more so; it lets you do more shooting with the same amount of money.

One benefit of cast boolits is it lets me shoot more per session, due to lower barrel heating (and lower recoil, in many cases). This may not be a big difference with 45/70, but it was a rare day I'd shoot over 100 .30-06's with jacketed, but it's a typical day with cast.