.311/.312 Boolits in .30-30?

[emrah]

So I've recently begun my casting career and I have a question about my .30-30 boolits. I have the Lee C309-170-F mould (170gr. flat point). It's dropping boolits at .311" and .312"

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says they sized their loads to .309". I've been reading threads here and everywhere else online for days and it seems .311" is really popular.

I have not slugged my barrel yet, but I will. "Assuming" it slugs out to .308", should I go with the larger diameter? Of course, I will get a sizer for the .312 and over boolits.

I just want to fill the bore as best as possible with minimal/no leading. I'd like to make this a hunting load around 1,800 fps.

Any thoughts?

Emrah

[rintinglen]

i have 5 30-30's, 4 winchesters and a savage turn bolt. All prefer .310 boolits. .309 boolits in fact, double the group size in my Canadian Centennial. I have used the .311 sizer, but then I have issues with the savage. It has a very tight throat and only the short-nosed boolits will work in it.

[imashooter2]

My Marlin 30AS slugs at .308 on the nose and I size to .311 for best results. Fact is, as long as the cartridge will chamber freely and release the boolit, too large causes far fewer problems than too small.

For optimal performance, only the rifle can tell you. Experiment and find out.

[NickSS]

I have 6 30-30 rifles 3 winchesters, 2 Marlins and a Pedersolli Rolling Block. I experimented with cast bullets form.308 to .312 in .001 increments over the years and have found that one sized .312 gives me the best accuracy in all of my rifles. At below .310 I got poor accuracy but .311 and .312 gave me the best with the edge going to .312 in several of my rifles.

[btroj]

Like the others said, .310 is on the small side of what you want. I go with .311 for 30-30. You have a mould that is the right size, enjoy it.

[JFE]

You may be limited by the size of your rifle's throat. As you are producing 0.312 bullets as cast, why not load up a dummy cartridge to see if it fits the chamber as is. If you can get away without sizing that may just be your most accurate bullet size.

[Larry Gibson]

+ another for .311.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Measure the ID of a fired case mouth. That's as fat as you can go.

[emrah]

Does that take into account the "spring" action after firing?

Emrah

[Char-Gar]

Never yet saw a 30-30 levergun that would not shoot .311 cast bullets and like them.

"Back in the day", Lyman recommend .311 for all 30 caliber cast bullets. Then somebody got the notion that barrel groove or .001 over was the proper size.

Then we realized that the real critical dimension was the barrel throat. A cast bullet needs to be a snug fit there. As long as the bullet is larger than groove everything will be OK. In most commercial 30 caliber rifles a bullet .310 or .311 will do just fine. If you noticed the bullet shaving lead in the throat when chambered, then reduce the size .001 at a time until that goes away.

Before somebody jumps in, I need to qualify the above a hair. Sometimes as you go up the velocity/ pressure ladder you need to size the bullet smaller to recoup accuracy. But at most normal cast bullet velocities the the above is good as gold.

The measuring of the ID of the case is a good idea and works 95% of the time to give you max bullet diameter. However on occasion there will be rifles that for accuracy reasons require larger bullets than the chamber will permit. an example is a 1895 production Krag that I own. The barrel has a .312 groove diameter, but a round loaded with .313 bullets are a very tight fit in the chamber and don't allow any room for the case mouth to expand and let go of the bullets. So, I neck turn/thin the case mouths a couple of thou to allow me to shoot .313 bullet and still have some room for the case neck to expand and release the bullet.

[peerlesscowboy]

If your mould is dropping 'em at a full .312" that's good! Run 'em thru' a (313) sizing die & lube 'em..........

John C. Saubak

[skeet1]

I use .311 sized 311291's in my Marlin 336 and it shoots great, .310 would probably work as well.

Ken

[Bass Ackward]

Yea you just have to try everything cause it only makes a difference if it does.

If I had to compete for a prize with mine, everything would be .309.

[Bret4207]

Does that take into account the "spring" action after firing?

Emrah

The "spring" in the action is longitudinal, it won't affect your case mouth measurement.

[emrah]

Anyone have a max overall length for this boolit? I loaded up a dummy round with both .312 and .311 boolits and tried to chamber them. I loaded them to just at the cannelure (at least I THINK that was a cannelure??? It was the last groove i could crimp into).

Can't remember the exact OAL right now, but when I tried to chamber them, they were tough to push in the last 1/2" inch or so. The .312 boolit had rifling marks. The .311 was a little easier to chamber, but it too had rifling marks, just not as deep.

If I seat the boolit to what it says in the Lyman book (for different molds mind you), it would be like 2.510 or 2.521 or thereabouts.

If I seat the Lee boolit to the same depth, I can't crimp in the cannelure; it's too deep.

Confused and need advice,

Emrah

[NHlever]

I think he was referring to the spring in the neck of the case. Once it opens to release the boolit it will close back a bit. It is a case in that state that you want to try with the boolits you intend to shoot.

[emrah]

Yep. I was referring to the neck diameter "spring". Both .311 and .312 boolits seated easily enough with the Lyman M die I bought. I just need clarification on the OAL issue.

Emrah

[imashooter2]

Anyone have a max overall length for this boolit? I loaded up a dummy round with both .312 and .311 boolits and tried to chamber them. I loaded them to just at the cannelure (at least I THINK that was a cannelure??? It was the last groove i could crimp into).

Can't remember the exact OAL right now, but when I tried to chamber them, they were tough to push in the last 1/2" inch or so. The .312 boolit had rifling marks. The .311 was a little easier to chamber, but it too had rifling marks, just not as deep.

If I seat the boolit to what it says in the Lyman book (for different molds mind you), it would be like 2.510 or 2.521 or thereabouts.

If I seat the Lee boolit to the same depth, I can't crimp in the cannelure; it's too deep.

Confused and need advice,

Emrah

I use the 150 and it also engraves the rifling on the nose when chambered. Sizing will not change that as the nose doesn't get sized. I call it a good thing as I believe that solid support is one of the reasons the lee boolit shoots so well.

My OAL is 1.240 for the 150 (which doesn't help you at all). I'd load yours until the gas check is at the bottom of the neck or the top drive band is at the case mouth, whichever came first.

[emrah]

Ok, I'm confused. If it hits the rifling, isn't that bad? Doesn't it need some leade/freebore? Wouldn't it raise pressure?

Emrah

[rintinglen]

With a jacketed bullet, pre-engraving is generally frowned upon. With cast boolits, not so much. My 30-40 Winchester dotes on the 311-291 seated out until it actually engraves on the lands. Back it off 20 thousandths and groups open substantially. My observation is that any pressure increase caused by the boolit's pre-mature contact with the lands is largely offset by softer nature
of the projectile and the larger volume in the case, due to the boolit being slightly further out.

[imashooter2]

Ok, I'm confused. If it hits the rifling, isn't that bad? Doesn't it need some leade/freebore? Wouldn't it raise pressure?

Emrah

That would be why you don't just plunk the heaviest load you can find on the internet into the case and shoot it. Do a standard work up and everything will be fine.

[emrah]

Ok, I don't even HAVE a load for it yet. Not even at that point. All I'm asking is if it's ok if it touches the rifling.

Emrah

[fryboy]

as always starting small and working up it's ok within reason , sadly some of those reasons are up to the individual rifle and the only way ( and the beauty of handloading ) is being able to try it and see , as for powder ...many work in this caliber for cast and of note my t/c prefers both different powder and size than my marlin does , this one lucky for us isnt too demanding and approaching factory ballistics with boolits is easy enough

[imashooter2]

Ok, I don't even HAVE a load for it yet. Not even at that point. All I'm asking is if it's ok if it touches the rifling.

Emrah


Yes, it is OK if your Lee C309-170-F engraves rifling.

[JFE]

I dont have that mould but did look at Lee's chart. To me it looks like the crimp groove is not in the right place for use in a 30/30. You can get around this by using a Lee Factory Crimp die. You will need to use an OAL that cycles in your lever action - normally about 2.55" or so for a 30/30. With the Lee die mentioned you can crimp the bullet in place, regardless of whether there is a crimp groove there or not. You will need to crimp your bullet in place as the bullets held in the magazine may be pushed into the neck under recoil if not crimped.

It also looks like the nose section is too large in diameter for your rifling. FYI 30/30's tend to have little or no throat. You can use a different alloy to produce a slightly smaller diameter bullet and this may solve your problem. A small amount of engraving is OK and in fact desirable for accuracy, but too much engraving will likely affect the cycling and functioning of your rifle and best avoided.

Here is a useful explanation of how to vary bullet diameter and weight, courtesy of Redding:


Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them

The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.

Hope this helps.

[emrah]

I figured out part of my problem. I measured my cases and they were all too long. Like between .050 and .100 inch too long! I know that .30-30 brass is thin and prone to stretching, but I don't even THINK to check my case length until after 5 or more reloads. I've reloaded this brass twice! I can't believe they were THAT much over length.

Obviously I need to trim these down.

That being said, I did load another couple of dummy rounds with both .311 and .312 and seated them to about 2.55-ish. I crimped them with a Lee FCD and they fed just fine. They both still have very slight engraving.

I think when I trim them to what they should be and load up the .311's I should be fine with both engraving and crimping issues. I hope.

Now to decide if I want to go with IMR 3031, RL7, H4895 or H335!

Thanks for the replies. I hate admitting a "duh" mistake, but glad I figured it out.

Emrah

[peerlesscowboy]

Ok, I don't even HAVE a load for it yet. Not even at that point. All I'm asking is if it's ok if it touches the rifling.

Emrah
It's OK if it touches the rifling

[pls1911]

I use a .312 sizer to seat checks an apply lube on heat treated Lyman, RCBS, Saeco and even Ranch Dog boolits ranging from 160 to 175 grains.
In 30+ Marlins and winnies it's best all around size, as microgroove barrel dimensions have varied a bit over the years. and the pre-microgroove barrels love .311-ish "as cast" fodder. With rounds taylored for universal use (not optimized for a single gun) every rifle in inventory will easily hold sub 3" with long barrels and peep sights if I do my part, carbines a bit more. That's "minute of critter" accuracy, and plenty good enough to keep sausage in the freezer.

[popper]

The standard FL sizer die ball is .307. If CB is .311, does loading the CB into the brass size the CB smaller than .311? Is a larger sizer ball the solution? Sized some .309 to seat GC today, CB is still .309 but GC is .312. Is that normal? I would think the case has a good grip on the GC but the CB would be loose.

[imashooter2]

The standard FL sizer die ball is .307. If CB is .311, does loading the CB into the brass size the CB smaller than .311? Is a larger sizer ball the solution? Sized some .309 to seat GC today, CB is still .309 but GC is .312. Is that normal? I would think the case has a good grip on the GC but the CB would be loose.

Load one, pull it and see. I use a Lyman M die expander and have no issues.

[popper]

If .312 works for most, why do commercial casters cast to .309? I don't cast, at this time, but would shoot cast if I could get properly sized CB. I can always size own from .312 . My 336 30-30 is quite accurate with j-word of all types. Last range trip was with laser cast 170 using unique and h-4895 GC'd (ladder test). They were all on paper, but ALL over the place. No leading, using JPW/LLA 50/50, yea , it smokes a lot. No reason to slug the bore if I can only get .311 from one or two casters( So Carolina or MBC). Problem isn't as severe for MBC 40 SW, but distance is only 50 Ft. I can see why a lot of shooters don't use CB. Casting equipment $ and experiment time is tooo much.

[imashooter2]

Because commercial casters make what sells, not necessarily what works.

[emrah]

Popper,

You have to do the math that works for you and how often you shoot. Out of a half-filled 5-gallon bucket of wheel weights (that I got for free from a friend who owns a auto-repair shop), I was able to get 550+ 230gr. .45 ACP boolits and almost 600 170gr. 30-30 boolits.

Figure a cheap box of jacketed bullets runs approx. $25/100 (at least where I am). That's $300 worth of bullets.

A box of store-bought .45 ACP cast boolits are about $50/500. That's still about $120 for 1200 boolits as compared to free.

My casting setup cost:

Lyman 10lb furnace - $30
Dipper - $20
Lee mold - $20 each
Lee sizer die - $20 each
Dollar store scooper spoon - $1
Dollar-store huge candle - $1
Box 1000 gas checks - $30

Total = $122. Oh, plus the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for $20.

Best investment I ever made.

Emrah

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, I'm confused. If it hits the rifling, isn't that bad? Doesn't it need some leade/freebore? Wouldn't it raise pressure?

Emrah

Emrah

Whether or not the drive band of whatever cast bullet you use is engraved (hits) by the rifling (leade) is going to be determined by the AOL of the loaded cartridge. Since the AOL for a 30-30 used in a tube fed rifle is usually governed by crimping in the crimp groove if you use a bullet designed for the 30-30 odds are the driving band will not hit the leade.

I have used other cast bullets where the nose is definately engraved by the rifling. I have pressure tested those along with other loads in my M94. I've yet to find a noticeable or measureable increase in psi if the nose or lead driving band is engraved by or hits the leade.

Larry Gibson

[popper]

Emrah
I shoot CB in 40 SW(a lot). So far CB in my 30-30 are just plain inaccurate (commercial CB). I could cough up the $200 for equipment and another $150 for ~ 2500 bullets (#2 lead). If I could get .313 CB, for $60 / 500, and size to my gun, I'll get results faster. Same economy model as reloading. I buy the gun, buy some ammo. If I want to shoot more, get more accurate or just have a new hobby, I get the dies and stuff. If I want to shoot CB, I have to get what is available or start casting, no easy road. I see NO reason to buy what probably won't work. I think MBC has indicated they might start selling .310, but I haven't seen that on their website yet. Same thing with the .40 and I suspect all other pistol cal. Put up with what you can buy or cast your own. I have found a few casters that do .311, so I'll be ordering some from them .

[Philngruvy]

I followed the advice of a local reload supplier and bought a .309 sizer die and the set of Lee dies (FL, bullet seating, factory crimp). My boolits were all over the paper. So after much frustration, I decided to follow the advice given by many great guys here and I bought a .311 sizing die and a Lyman M die. My first group with the Lee 170 gr.(actually179 gr w/gas check cast from wcww) using 26 grs of IMR 4895 was a 1" group at 50 yards using the stock buckhorn sights with me braced on the back of my Polaris Ranger. Needless to say that I am a happy camper camper now. Next I am going to work up the powder charge and try to fine tune the load. I think it just might be possible to get that MOA that I strive for. Many thanks for the suggestions by the people on this forum which got me headed in the right direction.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot a ton of 312 bullets for the 3220 and 32 mag (cast) out of 3030s. Ive done it at some extreme velocitys too.

[popper]

I've looked at 32-20 CB, don't seem to find many heavier. Haven't found any 32 win spl either. If anyone knows of a source for .312 150-170 gn CB, please PM.

[popper]

Emrah
Easiest way I heard of to set seting depth is to split the neck of a junk case, inset bullet and chamber. Push on the base until it chambers fully. Extract and measure, then set OAL where you want it. My Marlin 30-30 with this bullet seats at 2.552, I loaded to 2.540, shots were all over the place, but all the holes (50 and 100 yd) were round. I am assuming that the CB was stable, not slipping on the grooves. Also no leading I coul see. I'm about to conclude (as others have stated) it's not the bore size miss-match as much as CB damage at the throat that causes bad accuracy. I shoot at a public range, so cannot recover any rounds.

[popper]

imashooter2
If I hadn't been lazy i would have done what you said. Did it now, Gee, seating didn't shrink the diam. Neck tension wasn't that great, but the case was many times fired.

[9.3X62AL]

My 30-30 rifles have shot VERY well with cast boolits sized @ .310". I saw no notable improvement running nfrom .311"-.313", and at .314" I noted draggy chamber contact in the chamber's neck area.

My belief remains that cast boolit success lies in "matching the hatch", to borrow a fly fishing term for a moment. More precisely, the boolit must at least match the throat's diameter, if not exceed it by a click or two on the micrometer.

Just about all of my nominal 30 caliber rifles have had wide throats--usually in the .3095" to .311" ballpark. I finally scored a 30-06 with actual SAAMI-spec throat and bore recently--.3085" throat, and .300" x .308" barrel/4-groove Mauser pattern. Its early work with .309" boolits has been REALLY good, so far.

The point being.......sizing a boolit to match or slightly exceed throat diameter has worked for me SO FAR. Never say "never", and never say "always" in this hobby field. The suggested "default setting" of .311" boolit diameter for the 30 calibers is an idea with a lotta merit, keeping in mind that expander balls in most nominal 30 caliber die sets "assume" jacketed bullets and usually nic about .3055"-.306". USE AN M-DIE, OR SIMILAR NECK EXPANDER.

[DLCTEX]

I size the Lee 311-170FP to .311 for my Marlin 30A. The nose of the boolit engraves in the rifling and takes a firm squeeze to close the bolt, but shoots extremely well.