Nose First sizing: Lee vs Lyman base first

[milprileb]

Granted: I need a Star sizer and I need all high end molds and I am not there yet.

Fact is: right now I am using 6 cavity Lee Molds as 2 and 4 cavity Lyman , Rcbs and Saeco get heavy on me and are slow to produce numbers of bullets I need and want. Makes casting take too long and more like a chore.

So I am using the Lee Molds in 45acp and 9mm. THey drop bullets over sized and on my RN 228 gr and SWC 200 gr 45acp, that oversize is enough to impact on feeding of bullets.

I find that if both of these are sized in my Lyman 450, I get a trace of lead on ogive or front band that can impact on feeding. If I nose size them on Lee sizing set, I get bullets that feed perfectly. THis tells me I would love to have a Star and nose size all my bullets forever... not there yet.

I mention this as I do not experience this situation on 9mm RN 124 gr bullets out of 6 cavity Lee mold and only out of the 45acp bullet molds.

My theory is 9mm mold drops not outlandish oversize bullets and both 45 molds drop on the larger end of the over size spectrum. All bullets regardless fire accurately so the issue is manufacture tolerances are ranging with Lee at times.

THe Lyman 225 gr RN 45acp bullet as dropped from my Lyman 4 cavity mold or 201 gr SWC 45acp bullet from RCBS size same from either Lee or Lyman sizer units.

Its the Lee tolerances and my work around to make my molds produce bullets that feed all the time with no drama is to nose size thru the Lee dies and depending on the load, I may lube them up in the Lyman 45O with stick lube. I am having hit or miss with lube of bullets with LL allox. Some loads Okay and no leading and some (9mm) , I get issues. In the drama of sorting that all out and also trying the JPW formula of Recluse.

Anyhow: that is what I am experiencing and its only with Lee molds. Considering cost and convenience of their 6 cavity molds, I can work around the sizing thing.

However... only as long as it takes to save up for a higher end of 6 cavity mold and join you Big Dogs and your Star sizer machines !

[btroj]

You don't need a Star or "hi end moulds" to get very good bullets. Lee, Lyman, and RCBS moulds all make bullets capable of very good accuracy. Lyman and RCBS sizers work very well and does the Lee if you are willing to pan or tumble lube.

It is the guy behind the gun that makes the biggest difference. A good shooter with a lad that combines proper alloy, size, lube, and load for the gun and application will always be successful even if using Lee mounds and tumble lube.

Don't get caught in the equipment race. It will only cost you ALOT of money and may not improve your shooting one bit.

I have my Star because shoots of pistol cartridge lever actions so I wanted the increased speed. I have a few Mihec and NOE mounds because they cast the bullet I wanted in the size I wanted. They are a joy to use but the bullet it not inherently more accurate than one cast from a Lee.

Sounds to me like you have found ways to use what you have to get the results you want. Why mess with success?

[Char-Gar]

I have been at this for 50+ years and I don't have a Star sizer, a progressive press nor a high end six cavity bullet mold.

I don't know what a "big dog" is, but spending money for the sake of having the biggest, best or most trendy has never held any appeal for me.

[PacMan]

I have a Star only because i foun a used one at a gun show for $50.00. My main sizer is a Saeco which i like really well. The Star is faster but no better at sizing than my Saeco.For seating of sturbon gas checks the Saeco is better for me. What i did do was for the Star and the Saeco i have max. size lube dies that i intend to shoot and am now using Lee push through sizer dies to size the other needed sizes after they are lubed.
Dwight

[mooman76]

Highest price mould I have is RCBS and I bought those used or on sale and don't even use them. They put out nice looking bullets but didn't work so well in my guns because they weren't the best design for those particular guns. I also bought a used 450 and only use it half the time. Like stated don't get caught up in the $$ race to get the best of the best. If it's something you really need or what the by all means get it. I got a ton of moulds and i cast a bunch of boolits with them but when it comes down to it, I don't use half the boolits and stick mostly to the standards. You also could try polishing your feed ramp and it may help your boolit feed problem.

[gnoahhh]

I have a few custom moulds and while they cast excellent+accurate bullets, truth be known I get equal performance from a few (but not all) Lyman/RCBS/SAECO moulds also. Unfortunately I'm one of those rare individuals who never had much luck with Lee moulds- but that's just me. I'll probably try them again.

My personal theory about nose first v. base first is with rifle bullets I prefer base first so as to preclude ever dragging a tiny flash of lead back out over the all critical base, and also not run the risk of knocking the gas check out of square to the base. Since my pistol shooting is 100% close range plinking, I don't worry too much about that.

[geargnasher]

Milprileb, are you sure your .45 mould is closing all the way? Are you squeezing the sprue plate cam handle together with the mould block handles while pouring? The sprue plate cam will force the blocks open a few thousandths if you apply "closing" pressure to it with the mould blocks closed up. Do you have any aluminum or lead flashing stuck to the faces of the blocks? Have you sprayed mould release on it? Have you smoked it into submission so many times that there's soot buildup on the block faces? Are you using Bullplate Sprue Lube or some sort of lube on the alignment pins to keep them from binding? Your problem could be as simple as the mould.

Check these things, and if you're certain that it's closing fully, you can mask off the block faces and spray-paint the cavities with BBQ Black spray paint, two or three coats with a full day's drying in between and try again. This will undersize your mould, and it works. At the moment I can't remember the member who came up with this, but he is one of us.

Point is, if you can stop the shaving, just base-size like normal.

Now if you want my dos centavos on push-through (Lee) Vs. base-first (like Lyman, RCBS, etc.) there is no comparison. The base-first is fine for pistol boolits and is great for seating gas checks and "bumping" boolit noses, but the tolerance in the rams makes for bent or shaved rifle boolits that don't shoot straight. Often I nose-first size, then check and lube with a flat-top punch in the base-first, making sure the top punch can "float" in the ram by holding it in with a small ball of lube rather than the setscrew.

The Star apparently does it all, but I really don't need or want one since I don't do massive amounts of production.

Gear

[milprileb]

Geargnasher,

Mold faces are clean and 228 gr RNL mold just returned from Lee with comments about burrs being replaced so I will crank up furnace and try it out. Yes, I am lubing the pins and I do not squeeze the sprue handle but I do squeeze the other two handles.

The Lee 200 gr SWC 68 clone is brand new and sized in Lyman 450, I get lead pushed up
to front band.

Right now, I am sizing in Lee sizer, then moving over to the Lyman (using same size dies) and doing lube on Lyman. I then take a mineral spirit rag and wipe off all Lee Allox from bullets and cases if any is there. So I nose size and lube on Lyman: that is my work around for RN and SWC bullets.

I don't run into any of this using RCBS or Lyman molds for my bullets but they are heavier and less user friendly. I like that 3 handle Lee system and the light aluminum blocks.

[prs]

You can change your alloy to higher lead content to reduce size.

prs

[geargnasher]

You can change your alloy to higher lead content to reduce size.

prs

Probably only get a half-thousandth smaller before getting too soft, sounds to me like the mould is about .002" too big.

I use all kinds of combinations of sizing/lubing, depends on what I need and the way I think is best to get there. One boolit is .458", it gets nose-first in a .457" Lee, then lubed in a .458 Lyman base-first, then through either a .4545" or a .4535" Lee, that way the lube grooves get preserved and not smeared away by the downsizing. This is for accuracy, not for production. If I have an issue with a high-volume boolit, I fix the issue so I can size/lube in one step. Often this requires a custom mould from one of the makers who can lathe-bore the cavities and adjust the band/nose size to my exact specs with my exact alloy.

Gear

[williamwaco]

I find that if both of these are sized in my Lyman 450, I get a trace of lead on ogive or front band that can impact on feeding.



Trace of lead on the ogive sounds like your top punch is shaving or deforming the nose of the bullet. Take it out of the sizer and insert a bullet manually into the top punch and see how it fits.

Trace of lead on the front band could be caused by an old sizing die that cut the bullet to size instead of swaging them. Years ago, all my sizing dies were the dies with a sharp step to cut the bullets to size. They frequently left a thin crescent of lead on the front band.

[Cherokee]

I did not see any measurements in your posts so: what size are the bullets from the mould, what size are you sizing them to. Is it possible you are not pushing the bullet deep enough into the Lyman sizing die so that the top band is not being completely sized? A pic of the offending bullets might help.

[milprileb]

They are sized as shallow as I can do it and yet fill the lube band in the bullets. Deeper just loads a wad of lube on nose of bullet.

The bullets I will measure but one can feel the ridge of lead on the RN bullet ogive and on the SWC front band, you can see lead there as the front band shows uneven ridge. I could cut it off
but do not try. If I nose size the SWC, the front band is flat and even and any excess lead is moved south.

[Echo]

I
My personal theory about nose first v. base first is with rifle bullets I prefer base first so as to preclude ever dragging a tiny flash of lead back out over the all critical base, and also not run the risk of knocking the gas check out of square to the base. Since my pistol shooting is 100% close range plinking, I don't worry too much about that.

+1. I don't like to nose-first size through my Star, as it occasionally leaves tails on the base, and that ruins accuracy. I've never had a problem with leading-edge smears.

[Junior1942]

Use two coats of LLA. One before push-through sizing and one after.

[Mk42gunner]

They are sized as shallow as I can do it and yet fill the lube band in the bullets. Deeper just loads a wad of lube on nose of bullet.

The bullets I will measure but one can feel the ridge of lead on the RN bullet ogive and on the SWC front band, you can see lead there as the front band shows uneven ridge. I could cut it off
but do not try. If I nose size the SWC, the front band is flat and even and any excess lead is moved south.

Try sizing deeper and back the pressure off the lube.

I don't have a 450, I use an RCBS Lubamatic that the ratchet was gone when I got it. I use a 1/4" interchangable bit screwdriver handle to apply or relax pressure as needed.

Robert

[milprileb]

Well.... I got RCBS dies in this 450 and if I seat bullets deeper as you suggest, all I get is a wad of lube on top of nose of bullet. Pressure at near zero and this happens. The only way grease goes into the bullet lube groove is if bullet is seated higher when sized in this die. Same holds true with Lyman dies.

[357shooter]

I did not see any measurements in your posts so: what size are the bullets from the mould, what size are you sizing them to. Is it possible you are not pushing the bullet deep enough into the Lyman sizing die so that the top band is not being completely sized? A pic of the offending bullets might help.+1. You seem to have 2 moulds from Lee that drop oversized bullets. I have to lap mine to get full sized. I'm just sayin', have you used a micrometer on them, and what do they mic at?

[Larry Gibson]

You are swaging the noses to a larger diameter on the Lyman because the alloy is giving and swaging due to pushing the bullet in the sizer on the nose. Using the Lee and pushing base first any swaging done to the base is sized out as it goes through the sizer. Pretty much that simple. If you don't want to change to a harder alloy to withstand the sizing in the Lyman then push size through the Lee 1st and then lube in the the Lyman using the same size sizers. That will solve the problem.

Larry Gibson

[milprileb]

Larry , what you said is what is happening.

I am good with size in Lee and lube in Lyman 450.

[michiganvet]

milprileb has the answer but I would use a little tumblelube before sizing in the Lee to make it easier and prevent leading up the Lee.