High velocity with usable accuracy? You decide!

[Bullshop]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/1414df2c356da89a.jpg

These targets were perforated at 100 yards with the newish and littlest NOE design, the copy of the Lyman 225107 a 40gn fngc boolit.
This little boolit seems to like to go fast for sure. I am not sure if its the boolit design, or the Lotak lube, or the 221 Fireball cartridge or a combination of all but I am getting some impressive numbers on the Ohler 35 and at least decent usable accuracy.
The 5 shots on the rabbit target are the last 5 of 20 before cleaning. Each hole has the number of its shot and its velocity.
The target on the dirty plate is the first 5 from a clean barrel.
The target at right is a conglomerate of several targets including the load work up with two different powders.
The average velocity for the two targets at left is slightly over 3640 fps.
Maybe some tweaking can be done to tighten the groups a bit and I intend to try.
At this velocity the barrel looks absolutely clean and lead free using Lotak soft lube. It cleans with a couple passes with a wet brush then a couple dry patches.
This velocity is far beyond anything I have ever gotten previously with boolits and still have any semblance of accuracy.
So I will let you decide, is this usable accuracy. For me the answer is yes. I can use this level of accuracy to about 200 yards and that covers the greatest percentage of all my shooting.

[giz189]

That is pretty cool! What alloy were you shooting Bullshop?

[Blammer]

that's smokin!

For a big game caliber I'd call that usable accuracy. For a varmint caliber I'd also say it's usable accuracy, so when I miss the rabbit I can say it's the boolits fault and not feel like I'm a liar. :)

[Bass Ackward]

In the old days, 22s were made from 22LR casings and these would not make the target from the Swift at 3600 + fps.

I also have trouble here at 3250 fps with vapor trails during high humidity that just does terrible things to groups.

So I would say that is good for this time of year. I wonder what happens when it cools down? :grin:

[Bullshop]

The alloy was range scrap cast hot-N-fast and quenched from the mold.
Since the little buggers are too small to test I will guess the hardness to be between 20 to 24 BHN

Yea Blammer there will be a few misses at 200 yards out of every 100 shots. Truth is I get those even with the most accurate ammo
Just as with any high intensity cartridge firing boolits or bullets it wants to be cleaned after 20 shots or the wanderers wander farther.
I am working on a pre-lube dip that might help tighten groups a bit. The idea is to dip the boolits with a tumble type lube so the lube that fills the grooves to keep them from collapsing will release more uniformly at the muzzle.
I am not really ready to announce the product yet. It needs more testing. Hopefully it will serve as a tumble lube alone for lower pressure loads. Time will tell.

[Bullshop]

BA
Good to see ya here Friend.
What area are you thinking when you say cooler? Yesterday we were somewhere about in the high 40s and low 50s.
If you mean like below zero we both know what that will do. I hope my idea of a pre-lube dip might help that too.

[Centaur 1]

The alloy was range scrap cast hot-N-fast and quenched from the mold.
Since the little buggers are too small to test I will guess the hardness to be between 20 to 24 BHN

I am working on a pre-lube dip that might help tighten groups a bit. The idea is to dip the boolits with a tumble type lube so the lube that fills the grooves to keep them from collapsing will release more uniformly at the muzzle.


Bullshop, I use RD's technique for dip lubing, but with one twist. He says to spray the boolits and crimp the gc with a Lee sizing die. Then he says to dip in Alox and stand them up on wax paper. The dipping process leaves a blob of lube around the base of the boolit. After the lube is hard I push the boolits back through the sizing die base first. Instead of the die wiping the excess lube from the base of the boolit like it does when inserted nose first, when you push it through base first the sizing die forces all of that excess lube into the grooves. This method really packs the grooves with lube.

[Bullshop]

The idea on the pre lube I was referring to is to create a non stick surface in the lube grooves. Then lube as normally in a lubrisizer to fill the grooves.
This in theory any way should help the conventional lube to completely release from the boolit at exit from the muzzle much as a paper patch does. That should help eliminate any out of balance boolits in flight due to un-uniform lube release.
Either it all needs to stay on the boolit or all fly off at the same point.
At any rate its is something I am working with and if successful will add it to our product list.

[MT Gianni]

I would call it usable accuracy from a bench Dan. It is pretty amazing to scoot them along that fast. Is there a real advantage in a rabbit, fox or coyote gun at 200 yards with that speed or are you better off with a moa load @ 2200 fps? That is what you need to find out. I know you can read the yardage and figure the trajectory.

[Bullshop]

The only real advantage to having the speed is blowing up water filled containers at 100 yards. I love the way my girls squeal when they do that.
I was on the search for accuracy but when I started to get the speed I was kinda side tracked to see where that would go.
Its kinda given me a whole new perspective on what top end really is with boolits.
Its also started me thinking allot about lubes too. We see countless posts about lubes that dont lead but there is more to it than that. We still want to hit too. Still though at 3640 fps and no sign of leading is pushing the top end envelope in that regard.
There are lots of folks looking for and finding accuracy at that 2200 fps you mentioned but how many are looking in the 3500 fps area? I am not trying to find THE LOAD for this rifle I am more interested in plowing new ground and work in an area outside the norm. That is how we here at CB have raised the bar on performance and available cutting edge information. We use to look to other sources for that information but they are no longer on the edge and they're not even keeping up as evidenced by the newest Lyman offering.
What its really about is an life long appetite for this knowledge but the pastures are grazed off so for more still one must seek new pasture. I think I have found a lush green oasis that I will feed on for awhile. I may not fly like an SST but neither did Orville and Wilbur.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

Those are fine targets for those size targets out to 100 yards or maybe a tad farther. Would be fine for rabbits, perhaps rock or wood chucks and even coyotes on call.

However, most of my shooting with the smaller .22 CFs (.22 Hornet, .222 and .223) are on much smaller targets such as rock or California ground squiirels, red diggers and Belding ground squirrels. The larger rock squirrel (we call then "grey diggers") and red diggers will give you a target of about 2 x 6". The belding ground squirrels are much smaller giving a target of 1 x 4" at most. We shoot these out to 300 yards. As you can see your loads are not sufficiently accurate for that.

With cast bullets in my .22 CFs I find a 1 1/2 moa load realisticly limits me to 150 yards on the larger squirrels and 100 yards on the smaller ones. If the load will put 80% of its shots in less than 1 moa then I can stretch that to 200 yards on the larger quirrels and still do well to 150 yards on the smaller beldings. I've learned to settle for a lot less velocity and much better accuracy with cast bullets. Also we will shoot upwards of 200 + shots on a decent walk about shooting the squirrels so cleaning the bore every 20 shots or so is not feasable.

Your accuracy at that velocity is pretty darn good band may be sufficient for your needs. However those loads are lacking in accuracy for my needs. "Success" just depends on the intended use.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Not leaving grey smoke trails as the boolit evaporates is purty good at that velocity. I doubt you'd know if you hit one of those squirrels any way, they'd just dissapear (try to eat that). An yup, I'm still messing with 2200 fps about.

[Bass Ackward]

The idea on the pre lube I was referring to is to create a non stick surface in the lube grooves.


Borrow the Pam from the wife. With all the assistants that you have around the place, I would recommend that you get an artist's detail paintbrush and have the interested one paint the Pam in just the grooves. :grin:

If you spray it on, it may give you handling fits.

It's better to simply design the bullet with shallow, gentle sloping lube grooves. Not only making it easy to spin off, but easier for it to climb to the bore surface where it can work. But you can't do that for 22s I know.

It will work as you intend.

[MtGun44]

Amazing results! Please explain the lube, I am not familiar with it, clearly it is an
impressive lube.

Bill

[Bret4207]

Dan, anything over 3k with any kind of accuracy is way beyond what 99.9% of people can produce. Good on you! I think you're on the cutting edge here.

[44man]

I see one problem! Your should use a clean plate, not the one you ate S.O.A.S. from. [smilie=l::bigsmyl2:

[WyomingWhitetail]

well it looks to me like if you were shooting rabbits with that gun you would have 5 dead rabbits. what you are doing is truly amazing in the world of boolits. As soon as a get a M die ill be starting on loads for the 219 zipper but my goals are only 2300+ fps and minute of prairie dog out to 200 yards. Very interested in where you take this from here so please keep us all updated.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

One question; have you shot test groups at perhaps 150 and 200 yards to check the linear dispersion of the groups?

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

A Bore Snake will probably work real well for carrying in the field. I use them at the range also dry just to get the looser fouling out of the bore.

In my K-Hornet and 223 I can't get that level of velocity with the Lyman 44gr, but can get over 3,000 fps with similar accuracy.

Just to put your level of velocity in perspective I had factory Federal frangible bullets not make the target at 200 yards, just a puff of smoke past 100 yards.

Keep up the fun.

[MT Gianni]

Dan I am in total agreement as to keeping on the project. I would like to see what the speed tops out at and if you get accuracy to go with it wow. This is already in the experimental ground that Pope, Louverin, Elmer and many of our revered bullet pioneers walked in. You cannot achieve without trying.

[NHlever]

That is amazing performance for a cast boolit! Forty five years ago I can remember having fits trying to get over 2000 fps without clogging the bore with lead........... how far we have come! (Well you anyway :D )

[Nrut]

Way to go Dan!! :shock:
Looking forward to more of your Hi-Vel reports..
:drinks:

[Bullshop]

MtGun44
The lube I am using is Lotak. It has been available from The Bullshop for a few months now. It is not listed at our site because we still are unable to make changes at the site.
There were a couple pretty good test reports here at CB by other members.
I developed the Lotak lube (low tackiness) on request from customers for a less tacky lube than Speed Green but that would work equally well. There are two different Lotak lubes available, hard and soft. Hard needs heat to flow well and the soft will not need heat in most cases.

Larry Gibson
No not yet just at 100 yards. BS Mom is still away awaiting the arrival of #9 so I cant get away from the shop right now. The shop has a 100 yard range.

Leadman
I have thought about the bore snake but worry about possible muzzle damage from possibly not pulling straight out. I am probably worrying about a non existing problem.
I would like to hear what others think about that. I watched a fellow use one while sitting and he was pulling it to the side over the muzzle and I thought that cant be good.

Thanks Gianni! I need the encouragement to help offset the disappointments.
I think what I am seeing here is the combination of several things working together to make the speed possible without total disaster.
Those things include and not necessarily in order,
#1 a case with small powder volume but still capable of high pressure (safely)
#2 a boolit design that is short for caliber. This little #107 is .4275" long with the check on. Not being too good with math I think that is less than the bearing circumference (yes?) What percentage would that be? Could this be a formula to determine boolit length for high velocity in a given caliber? What would that work out to in say a 30 caliber, 308" groove.
I have a few short 30 designs and may try those to apply the same ideas and see what happens when blistered out of an 06 or a 308.
I think I am topped out for speed with the little Fireball case. Pressure seems about maxed out. Its doing 150 fps faster than any jacketed bullet data I can find and I can only find one data source that goes that fast, Accurate Arms.

#3 Lube!
#4 Twist I think twist should be minimal to stabilize the short boolit. This Fireball is a 1/14". Might a 1/16" group better?
If applying the roughly 2/3 circumference length for boolit length then a 30 cal should be what like 3/4" boolit length or just a bit under? What would be a minimum twist for that, about 1/15" ?
See lots of room for testing here.
" I have a dream" that one day we will be able to shoot our short boolits at ultra velocity ( for boolits) and do it with the fabled 1 inch 100 yard groups.
True that short for caliber light weight boolits even going very fast will never cut it for long range but if we can make them usable to within say 300 yards they will cover a whole lot of ground.
If nothing else my little girls Grace age 8 and Christian age 10 just love blowing up water bottles at 100 yards. To hear their squeals of joy when they pull the trigger has been reward enough for me.

[MtGun44]

Thanks for the info on Lotak. As to changing your web site, do you need some web
assistance or is the ISP screwed up some how?

Impressive results.

Bill

[Bullshop]

Its rather a long story on the website. BS Mom was about to get a handle on it but at the moment ah something else came up, sorta.
She is away in Fairbanks and has been gone over a week awaiting #9. Hopefully when things become normal again she will continue to work on it. It may generate more sales if folks knew about it but hay that would just cut into my testing time.
I am sheltered, clothed, and fed, what more do I need beside time.

[tonyjones]

Dan,

Check out 6mmBR.com. They have a section that contains articles about the .30 BR that the Score Benchresters have adopted. Bullet weight/length used by these shooters varies from about 107 to 125 grains with 112 to 117 seemingly the most popular. These jacketed bullet competitors have mostly gravitated toward a 1:17" twist.

Tony

[Von Gruff]

This thread is a really enjoyable one to follow. I have nothing to contribute but encouragement and anticipation.

Von Gruff.

[nanuk]

I agree with Von Gruff

this is exploring new territory... sort of, and although there are some goals that are not being met, many others have been.

it all adds to the general information that is debunking the myths out there

[Bullshop]

Tony
That is very interesting to me because it follows right in line with what I was thinking were the factors involved with high velocity with good accuracy with boolits. That is
short boolit/bullet length about 2/3 the circumference, small case volume capable of high pressure, and minimum twist rate for stabilization.
Its interesting that the BR jacketed bullet shooters have settled on the same things.
I have a 1/16" twist 22 barrel I would like to get threaded for my Stevens and chambered for the 221 Fireball also. I would also like to get another barrel for Savage/Stevens with a 1/16" or 1/17" and chamber it for 30/30.
It would be nice if I could get a grant to fund my research.

[tonyjones]

Dan,

Several years ago, before Alliant Techsystems bought them, Federal made a small batch of .30-30 match brass with small primer pockets and VERY uniform wall/neck thickness. I wish I could still get my hands on that stuff.

Precision Shooting Magazine had a series of articles a few years ago on the .30 BR. Randy Robinett wrote a couple of them. Randy is the head of BIB (Ballistic Idiot Bullets; no kidding). A lot of .30 BR competitors shoot BIB bullets. One of the articles presented a detailed mathematical analysis of the gyroscopic stability of various benchrest bullets. If you could get your hands on copies of the articles I think you might find some of the information fascinating and helpful.

In many ways cast and jacketed bullets are different. However, some of the physical principals apply accross the board.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Tony

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Very interesting, & WOW.:Fire::Fire:

[DrB]

Neat stuff. I have a 22 khornet I've been getting 3300+ with 35 gr vmax, and 3200 for 45 gr all copper. Powder was lil gun.

I've wondered what I could do with a cast bullet but really didn't entertain anything as feasible beyond 2200 fps or so. Given your experience, bullshop, what would your procedure be for working up a high velocity cast load for a hornet, starting with bullet mold characteristics?

Would love to read more about the proposed relation between bearing length and the velocities you are achieving (or is it only proposed to be related to accuracy?). as I understand it, higher velocity bullets with fast twist, soft cores, and relatively thin jackets tend to self destruct because the rotation rate is sufficient that centripetal loading of the lead approaches or exceeds alloy ultimate strength. So in this sense having a shorter bullet does at least a couple things for you I can think of... you can stabilize with a slower twist and not spin your bullet past alloy ultimate strength. Also, it's easier to reach the high velocities with a lower sd bullet. I'm not sure why small case capacity would be an advantage however other than higher density loads tend to be more consistent in burning? Is there any effect re the magnitude of shocks vs chamber size for a particular bore and mean pressure profile? Seems like whatever the case geometry you'd want as constant an acceleration down the bore as possible...

Pretty incredible you're getting those velocities! Would love to try to replicate >2200 fps in my k hornet if you would share a methodology!

best regards,
DrB

[303Guy]

You may find a problem with Lil'Gun and cast unless you go with heavier boolits. That's because Lil'Gun seems to need a good neck crimp to burn the stuff properly. I used a heavy bulle and a heavy charge of Lil'Gun - compressed from half way up the neck right down to the base of the neck and no neck sizing.

Here's how I did it.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

That patch (which I called a paper seating cup) got hot dipped into a waxy-lube and soaked up the lube to hold the bullet firmly. I am thinking of giving it a try with cast boolits.

[OLPDon]

Dan (Bull Shop)

The new Chuck Jeager of Cast Boolits, pushing the envelope for sure. Very, very impressive. I guess you are thinking "Outside The Smelt" Way to go Dan!! It must be the long nights or the long days of light in the cold belt.

Don

[Bullshop]

DrB
Sorry I cant answer your questions. They are over my head! I am not all that smart or educated, or even observant, only experienced in burning powder.
One reason I like the smallest case that is capable of producing the velocity wanted is I feel there is les powder fouling, and maybe ignition is easier to keep uniform than in a larger one.
Still there is an advantage to a larger case in that it can produce equal velocity at lower pressure. I think its kind of a trade off.
One reason I will attribute to I guess semi success with high velocity and short boolits is shorter is stiffer just the same as a barrel.
I recall all the fuss here at CB when the 6.5 Cruise missile came out. It seemed there was a general agreement that beyond about 1700 fps it was toast. There was quite a controversy about why and I think Larry Gibson came up with the RPM threshold that seems to make sense.
I think a part of the problem was also that with such a long boolit while the front portion was exiting the muzzle and free of the tork from the rifling the base portion was still being torked and possibly initiation some imbalance. Once twisted out of shape they were done and could be heard whizzing off somewhere unknown.
Those long boolits would bend easily in size/lubbing if not careful. I only mention all this because the short length boolit seems to eliminate any such problem.
Larry even mentioned with his RPM threshold that it is not a set number but could be edged on a bit by certain factors, a short boolit being one.
Also if we start talking shear strength of the alloy we have to consider the inertia involved and how it works differently as the resistance to movement (heavy) increases.
With a light weight boolit for caliber I believe the rotation will start sooner as the boolit begins to move forward. A heavier boolit may be seen to have wider land marks on the nose than at the base. That would indicate a slight delay in the boolit taking the spin being imparted by the rifling. Skidding just a bit before it take the spin. A lighter weight
has to be more forgiving because of the lowered inertia of the lesser mass.
Forgive me please if I am giving the wrong idea here. I am not a Dr. or educated beyond grade school. My idea may be far from fact and I am saying these are only my ideas and nothing more. I cant prove or disprove anything just try to understand to the best of my limited ability.
Why no leading at 3650 fps? I dont know for sure but I think it too has to do with the tiny boolit. There is about equal bearing surface of metal to lube. That could have something to do with it. Also the drive bands on a 22 are fairly narrow so each lube groove can provide plenty of lube for the drive band just behind it.
I dont know I just dont know. I am not the man to answer questions. My standard procedure is to have an interesting experiance then bring it here and have some minds far better than mine to provide the answers.

[DrB]

Dan, reality is. Those like yourself who go to the trouble to play with it create the best opportunities for deeper understanding.

These are very neat results you've posted here.

If it's an rpm limit, then the longest bullet that will stabilize should also work. Wasn't there a 55gr bator mold around that was supposed to be short enough to stabilize in 1:14 twist?

If it's related to stiffness or such, then perhaps the longer bullet would have problems even though stable by greenhills formula?

Pm sent.


DrB
Sorry I cant answer your questions. They are over my head! I am not all that smart or educated, or even observant, only experienced in burning powder.
One reason I like the smallest case that is capable of producing the velocity wanted is I feel there is les powder fouling, and maybe ignition is easier to keep uniform than in a larger one.
Still there is an advantage to a larger case in that it can produce equal velocity at lower pressure. I think its kind of a trade off.
One reason I will attribute to I guess semi success with high velocity and short boolits is shorter is stiffer just the same as a barrel.
I recall all the fuss here at CB when the 6.5 Cruise missile came out. It seemed there was a general agreement that beyond about 1700 fps it was toast. There was quite a controversy about why and I think Larry Gibson came up with the RPM threshold that seems to make sense.
I think a part of the problem was also that with such a long boolit while the front portion was exiting the muzzle and free of the tork from the rifling the base portion was still being torked and possibly initiation some imbalance. Once twisted out of shape they were done and could be heard whizzing off somewhere unknown.
Those long boolits would bend easily in size/lubbing if not careful. I only mention all this because the short length boolit seems to eliminate any such problem.
Larry even mentioned with his RPM threshold that it is not a set number but could be edged on a bit by certain factors, a short boolit being one.
Also if we start talking shear strength of the alloy we have to consider the inertia involved and how it works differently as the resistance to movement (heavy) increases.
With a light weight boolit for caliber I believe the rotation will start sooner as the boolit begins to move forward. A heavier boolit may be seen to have wider land marks on the nose than at the base. That would indicate a slight delay in the boolit taking the spin being imparted by the rifling. Skidding just a bit before it take the spin. A lighter weight
has to be more forgiving because of the lowered inertia of the lesser mass.
Forgive me please if I am giving the wrong idea here. I am not a Dr. or educated beyond grade school. My idea may be far from fact and I am saying these are only my ideas and nothing more. I cant prove or disprove anything just try to understand to the best of my limited ability.
Why no leading at 3650 fps? I dont know for sure but I think it too has to do with the tiny boolit. There is about equal bearing surface of metal to lube. That could have something to do with it. Also the drive bands on a 22 are fairly narrow so each lube groove can provide plenty of lube for the drive band just behind it.
I dont know I just dont know. I am not the man to answer questions. My standard procedure is to have an interesting experiance then bring it here and have some minds far better than mine to provide the answers.

[DrB]

You may find a problem with Lil'Gun and cast unless you go with heavier boolits. That's because Lil'Gun seems to need a good neck crimp to burn the stuff properly. I used a heavy bulle and a heavy charge of Lil'Gun - compressed from half way up the neck right down to the base of the neck and no neck sizing.

Here's how I did it.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

That patch (which I called a paper seating cup) got hot dipped into a waxy-lube and soaked up the lube to hold the bullet firmly. I am thinking of giving it a try with cast boolits.

Huh. That's a new one to me, course I haven't read much about paper patching. After dipping you go back with a razor blade and trim the petals? Also, does your patch engrave or strip in the bore?

I've only used lilgun with the shouldered k-hornet, light bullets, and a full or near full case. Does the ignition concern arise from straight wall cases experience?

Been thinking of trying lil gun in a 50ae with 440 gr cast.

[Bullshop]

I think but dont remember for sure that the 50gn Bator boolit was designed to be stable from a 1/16" twist even at subsonic velocity.
I got one of those molds right at the very beginning but never got good results with it in my rifles. Some folks do but I have not.
It has worked out very well in a Ruger single six I had converted to 22 CCM. That would most likely have a 1/16" twist.
I have an NEI #2 at about 48gn and it shoots well in most rifles but I have not been able to get close to the velocity with any semblance of accuracy with it as I have with the NOE 107.
I also have a short Lyman RNGC (cant remember the #) at about the same weight as the NEI #2 and the story with that is about the same as the NEI. That is after about 2700 fps acceptable accuracy stops and the wide shots in a group can get wild.
When I started loaded the NOE 107 in the 221 Fireball I started out with H-110 powder.
I hit 3500 fps but grouping was too poor to use for much.
I then went to a slightly slower powder WW 680 and was getting best grouping at about 3440 fps. I then went slower yet with H-4227 and got up to 3650 fps but grouping is not as good as with the WW-680 at 3440 fps.
I do like the numbers over 3600 though and now that I know it can be done want to refine it a bit. I am going to go to the next slower powder and see what happens. I am hoping it may group better but maybe a slightly less velocity. If I can hold 3600 fps and 2 moa I will be happy with that.
I need to type less and shoot more.
BS Mom is still away so my domestic work load leaves little day left for other things.
After the evening milking, clean up, and milk processing there is not much of me left either.

[303Guy]

I am not all that smart or educated, or even observant, ...You are plenty smart by my estimation!:drinks:

You know how sometimes you will get one group that's smaller than another? It means smaller groups are possible and if you get that to be your norm there will be another that is smaller than the rest .... May I humbly suggest that you should not settle for 2" groups when it's likely or possible that 1" groups could be achieved.

After dipping you go back with a razor blade and trim the petals? Also, does your patch engrave or strip in the bore?No, I place a fired 223 nose over the bullet and twist and off the excess strip come.

The paper cup does not seem to interfere with the j-word in any way. I've not tried it in the field with cast but I have in my 'tests tube' and I found no evidence of it having interfered with the boolit either. It's really just a 'waxy-lube' cup but what it does of significance is hold the boolit/bullet concentric while is soaks up the 'waxy-lube'. The soaking stops at the end of the shank. The method did not work for me with the 303 Brit but neither did I pursue it.:roll:

[DrB]

You are plenty smart by my estimation!:drinks:
No, I place a fired 223 cose over the bullet and twist and off the excess strip come.

The paper cup does not seem to interfere with the j-word in any way. I've not tried it in the field with cast but I have in my 'tests tube' and I found no evidence of it having interfered with the boolit either. It's really just a 'waxy-lube' cup but what it does of significance is hold the boolit/bullet concentric while is soaks up the 'waxy-lube'. The soaking stops at the end of the shank. The method did not work for me with the 303 Brit but neither did I pursue it.

I have a bunch of lil gun k hornet data... Did this patching improve sd's? I guess the barrel, chamber, primer, and seating could all confound a valid comparison...

Would still like to hear more about what this did in your hornet.:hijack:

[303Guy]

I came accross a record in which I wrote .69 MOA at 200 metres. I don't remember that but I do know the rifle was scary accurate and flat shooting out to 160m. By flat shooting I mean the bullet did not rise or fall more than 40mm from the line of sight out to that range. This rifle had a rust damaged bore and an oversized chamber, possibly reamed to remove rust pits.

I do think Lil'Gun will perform well in other cartridges with the same scaled up geometry but I'm not sure how to do the scaling up.

There is another way to seat a boolit in an unsized neck when the fit is quite close but not close enough to hold the boolit in place.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-030F_edited.jpg

This requires a powder charge that fills the case right up to or into the neck and a cardboard wad that actually seals the neck. Then a little blob of a stiff lube like my 'waxy-lube'. The trick is to warm the boolit then set it on the blob of lube and it melts itself into place. That trick did work but the clearance was too large to give a firm enough grip.

[DrB]

So the benefit is the pre expanded neck holds concentricity to the neck of the chamber, the paper patch holds the bullet concentric to the case neck, and the lube glues the bullet in place and gives consistent release of the bullet? Sounds like a benchrester trick. :)

So .69 moa, 200 yd was after (about a 1.5" group), what was before?

How did you form the paper cup, and from what? Guess you had to hunt the thickness to give you the right concentricity?

[dverna]

3600+ fps is hard to believe with a cast "range scrap" bullet. Did you verify the chronograph is reading correctly? If so, very impressive.

Like Larry, I see the "wee" calibers as needing a higher level of accuracy than minute of an orange. But, you have made an excellent start, and load/bullet development may provide interesting results.

I am too inept to even attempt cast bullets in the .22 CF's - so I envy your ability.

Great work sir!

Don

[nanuk]

what is the RPM of that boolit?

[NHlever]

Some of us have gotten pretty spoiled with the good components that are available today pretty much on demand. Production barrels are much better these days too generally (or they can be if the manufacturer wantss them to be). I can remember in the early 60's getting pretty excited about a MOA group at 100, or 170 yards out of the .222's, and 22-243's we were shooting. We didn't have a longer range, but we were shooting woodchucks at longer ranges than that, perhaps to nearly 400 yards with the 22-243. To even think about those velocities from cast boollts is as exciting as the smaller groups were back then. Keep up the good work Dan.

[Bullshop]

-----what is the RPM of that boolit?-----

I dont know. I forgot how to figure it. Lets see 3650 fps X 12 = 43800 inches divided by the rate of twist 14" = 3128 = rps x 60 = 187714 rpm.
Does that sound right?

NHlever
That is exactly what I am thinking. If I in my available time can not do it someone else will pick up the ball and run with it. Once the velocity myth has been done away with its time to figure out what the truth is.
I have lots of ideas to try to improve on accuracy and feel confident I will get much better than the pics posted. That was just a starting point.
Yesterday I was able to improve the grouping a bit by going back to the Win 680 powder.
When I first used it I went from H-110 then to W 680 then H4227 thinking I was going progressively slower.
Yesterday I checked a burn rate chart ans see that the W 680 is quite some slower than the H 4227. I had previously had quit at 18gn W 680 for 3441 av, fps but went up to 18.5gn of the faster H 4227 for 3650 fps.
For this reason I went back and tried 18.5gn of the W 680 and it went right up to the velocity of the H 4227 load at 3650 but was giving slightly better average accuracy.
Actually accuracy was quite good accept for a flyer now and then. For instance out of ten shots in a group 7 or 8 might be in 1.5" while the other couple would go 3 to 4 inch.
This shows potential and that I have to figure out the flyers.
To be honest I have not put any effort into weighing boolits or powder charges. The boolits are used as they come without sorting of any kind other than to cull anything I see with a defect when I am size/lubing them. I may go there in the end but want to refine other things first.
What I see with these high intensity loads is exactly what I see in working up loads of the same intensity with jacketed bullets. Small changes in powder charge can make quite a difference in finding the best accuracy for that powder same same.
I did find a point at which I was beginning to get leading. That point was at the same point that primer pockets began to streach. The same pressure with jacketed bullets will also produce metal fouling so again same same.
The leading I get was in the breach end of the barrel and comes out on a patch as small flakes. Still one wet patch followed by a few strokes with a brush and then a couple dry patches cleaned it all up and had it ready to shoot again.
BTw the velocity that produced this condition was right at 3700 fps + or - and the pressure was too much for any bullet/or boolit.
This is a velocity area reserved for 22/250 and the likes but not for a 221 fireball, or is it?
I think we have all been selling the potential of boolits short, at least the velocity potential. I think within the limits of the cartridge that a boolit has the potential for higher velocity than its bullet counter part of equal weight and equal pressure.
Accuracy is then the issue. No doubt at least at this point of acquired collective knowledge that the bullets is more accurate at absolute top end. When its all said and done what will be found to be the % of accuracy lost by using a boolit rather than a bullet for such loads. My part in it is to make that the smallest number I possibly can.
Yea I am rambling

[303Guy]

Bullshop Have you thought of trying Lil'Gun? I suspect it does start to pressure spike at higher levels in a bottle neck case but otherwise it produces higher velocity at lower pressure. Just a thought.

[Bullshop]

Not yet. I have some and may try at some point but I left that burn rate behind when I left H-110. I felt since I had plenty of room left in the case the H110/Lil-Gun area of burn rate wound not prove optimum.
The W-680 seems about optimum for pressure to case volume. At 100 % I am getting the top safe loads. Slightly compressing is over the top.
I did try an even slower powder yesterday in Norma #200. With the Norma powder I passed optimum for burn rate because a slightly compresses load would only produce 3500 fps. It was looking pretty good for average accuracy but since I have had a taste of 3600+ the lowered velocity doesn't seem to achieve the same climax so to speak.

[303Guy]

I think I agree with your Lil'Gun surmise. You might be forced to settle for 3500fps and better accuracy but that would be a last resort, right? Did you mension the twist rate? I'm getting real interested heare because I have this long 22lr barrel that I'm itching to build into a 303-220 Swift. Such a rifle would be quite pointless if I can't get high velocity and good accuracy with it but I might be a bit ambitious with the case size. Perhaps it would be cleverer to build on a 30-30 case. I would then keep a long neck and use it for an under boolit wad. Aah! That would be a 22 Savage with a smaller bore!

[303Guy]

So .69 moa, 200 yd was after (about a 1.5" group), what was before? The rifle didn't do too well with conventional loading but once I moved to Lil'Gun and higher pressures, the accuracy improved. Unfortunately I live in a windy place so getting groups at the range was difficult.

Apart from my 22-303 or 22/30-30 project, I might just try plain cast with those paper cups in the hornet. I form the cups with a little tool I made.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-629F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-796F.jpg

Here's the tool I made for cutting the paper strips.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-818F.jpg

[303Guy]

3600+ fps is hard to believe with a cast "range scrap" bullet.I'm interested in this because I have this long 22lr barrel with a 1-in-16 twist .... mmmm

[Bullshop]

Your 22/30/30 would be closer to the 219 Zipper. I think maybe if I were to use the 30/30 case at 22 cal I might consider the 219 Donaldson Wasp.
It will get all the speed possible from a 30/30 case but have a better adjusted powder volume.
BTW the 221 I have been using is a 1/14" twist
I have a BRNO 110 in 222 also with a 1/14" twist. I plan to give it a whirl next. The larger case will allow a slower powder and may get the same velocity at a lower pressure.
I used to think that the lower pressure was important to best accuracy for boolits but now I am not so sure. I have been wondering in this if there is a window of pressure at the mid range that should be avoided. What I mean is that for the longest time we thought that we were limited to very low pressure for boolits.
We would work up loads that were nicely accurate then at some point leaving moderate pressure groups would open so we stopped and thought thats it right there that top pressure for accuracy. But is it? If we go beyond that moderate pressure window that yields poor accuracy right on up to NORMAL industry pressure will we again find another accuracy slot at the top end? I have to wounder.
Is something going on with the higher pressure actually making the alloy act harder?
The higher pressure at the base has to mean there is also higher pressure on the sides, the bearing portion of the boolit which might make the alloy act harder than it is.
I dont know I am thinking out loud but I have to wounder.
We have always tried to stay below the pressure that would exceed the shear strength of the alloy. That pressure at below may make an alloy act in one way but if we exceed it to a point that the alloy becomes more elastic can it then regain the gas seal and behave normally again. I dont know I dont have the answers. What I do know is that this experiance is making me have to look at what I thought to be true differently.
Also that I have a lot of shooting to do to find out.
The range scrap that I made the first batch of boolits from was brought in to me by a customer. He had picked up a bunch of boolits at the Delta range and melted them into ingots. When I have been to that range what is see looks to be about 50/50 of commercial cast and jacketed. I would guess the commercial cast to be very hard.
The batch of boolit I made from that alloy are not all that hard. I intend to make up a batch from my favorite alloy 6ww/1 mono and quench harden them.
That alloy will cast very nice clean boolits that will be quite hard when quenched.
Like I said lots of shooting to be done.
I just got done match prepping some cases and am on my way to the range to try again.

[WyomingWhitetail]

bullshop beat me too it but i was going to say a 22/30-30 is a 219 zipper. I have heard of people making full length 22/30-30 and ackley improving them. You have some very interesting ideals bullshop and just completing my second year in school for mechanical engineering you have me asking some serious questions to myself. Might have to dig out some of my books and do some reading. You have me wondering what i can do with my 219 zipper.

[DrB]

The rifle didn't do too well with conventional loading but once I moved to Lil'Gun and higher pressures, the accuracy improved. Unfortunately I live in a windy place so getting groups at the range was difficult.

Clever tooling set up, 303Guy. Thanks for sharing. What's the process RE forming the cup? You cut the strips with your shear tool, lay the strips in the holder, press a bullet in past the cylindrical section and then back out? How do you get the paper strips to stay in place? You seat into the unsized hornet case neck through your paper strip holding tool? Never mind, I get it now that I see the case holder/brass under your tool.

+1 on your Lil Gun experience RE pressures... Though I have no experience with Lil Gun in a bottle necked cartridge other than a K-hornet. In K-hornet, I've gotten >3000 fps with a 45 grain all-copper bullet + compressed load, pistol primers (soft) and no flattening at all of the primer. Seems to suggest the pressure profile may be benevolent for a lead bullet. Of course the primer indications are a SWAG, and are from the case end of the equation and not the bullet base, which is what matters as far as abuse the bullet sees.

With 35 grainers I've gotten >3400 fps, also with no pressure signs. One load variation at 3350 fps showed a Standard Deviation =18 fps. I thought that was pretty good, though it seems like I should be able to improve from the data (seems bimodal? About half of the data points were identical, but then I don't know what the discretization is on my chrony at ~3000fps, so that lack of variation may not mean anything.

[DrB]

btw -- anyone here or passing through that has a NOE 107 mold, I'd like to get a sample of a few dozen unsized boolits quenched to ~23 BHN to try with a K-Hornet load around 3300 fps. I'd be willing to offset your cost (shipping + a buck or two) if you want to PM me.

I think it would be interesting to see if my K-hornet will go to ~3300 fps without heavy leading/bad accuracy using these NOE 107 bullets substituted for jacketed in my Lil Gun load. If we can get this going I'll post results here.

[Larry Gibson]

Actually accuracy was quite good accept for a flyer now and then. For instance out of ten shots in a group 7 or 8 might be in 1.5" while the other couple would go 3 to 4 inch.
This shows potential and that I have to figure out the flyers.

Bullshop

Those flyers are telling you something. Probably 187714 rpm. That's why I suggest shooting at 200 yards to see if the group there is linear compared to the 100 yards groups. If the 1.5" 7-8 shots run 3 - 4" at 200 then you've just got to figure out why the 2-3 flyers were going south. If the 7-8 good shots show a non linear group expansion at 200 yards then the RPM is the problem, not the cause but the problem.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

How do you get the paper strips to stay in place?I push the strips trough to the case with a rod, hold the rod down then lift the little tool thing of then remove the rod and tool. The bullet gets seated and the excess strips get cut off with an invered 223 case over the bullet. Soon to be boolit![smilie=1:

I'm gonna have to get this hornet out of hiding and start having some fun with it again - this time with real boolits!

[KennethF]

Bullshop, I would like to offer a suggestion that may help you to improve your shot groups while doing your load development for this project you are working on here. Maybe you are already aware of and using these accuracy improving methods, if so this may be useful to others following this thread. In your post #46 you state that when fireing 10 shot groups, you are able to get 8 shots in 1.5" and 2 shots will be flyers causing the growp to become 4" or 5" groups. So all you need to do is eliminate the flyers.

In Harvey Donaldsons' book, "Yours Truly Harvey Donaldson", in the chapter called "Finding The Cause For Flyers", Harvey writes that many times neck wall thickness variations can be the cause of flyers, do you turn the outside of your case necks to uniform them? The next suggestion he offers is if you shoot a group of ten and you get 2 flyers, segregate the two cases that caused the flyers and shoot a group of 8 using the cases that produced the thightest portion of the previously shot group of 10 and see if that elimates the flyers. Harvey also says, any number of things, seen and unseen can be wrong with the bullet to cause a flyer, as well as an improper barrel crown.

To eliminate those cases that produce the flyers may eliminate the flyers if all else is equal.

Good luck.

Ken

[DrB]

Bullshop et al -- a range report is posted at the link below with my results using Bullshop's NOE 107 bullets and Lotak lube.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1352414#post1352414

[Bullshop]

Ken
Thanks for reminding me. I have that book and have always been an admirer of Mr Donaldson. I have learned much from the book of his articles but sometimes forget to put it into practice.

[HORNET]

Dan, I have the old Ideal 225107 and was having strange things going on with flyers. I cut down the frequency a lot by switching to an old Lyman seating die that I had that would barely pass a .2245 boolit and getting Badgeredd to make me a seating punch for it with a flat end like you'd use for a wadcutter. I don't think there's enough bearing length on that boolit to align it in the case neck consistantly and keep the base square to the universe. It definitely gives consistent overall length.

[leftiye]

Bullshop - Thank you for your "thinking out loud" post. That's what I come here for. That's where we will make discoveries. Thanks again, Ted