H110/WW296 question

[selmerfan]

Okay, there's a nice discussion going over in the Buffalo Bore thread and I didn't want to hijack it. It's pretty common knowledge that these powders are the same powder, produced in the same plant. I learned yesterday that one lot to lot of burn rate variation is sent to Winchester, the other to Hodgdon, although now Hodgdon owns them both. My question is that I've been looking through cast data for .308 Win and .30-06 and have found a few loads that use H110 in small doses. This is NOT a powder to use for reduced loads, at least in pistols, so what gives with the rifle? I've heard this is a prime candidate for Secondary Explosion Effect and I'm awful leery of using H110 in a rifle case. Any thoughts?

[Rocky Raab]

I don't use reduced loads of ANY spherical powder, for that exact reason. Perhaps I'm being overcautious, but it's not as if those are the only powders available to me.

[MtGun44]

These powders behave unpredictably in low density situations, which is why the companies
that sell them (one company, now) strongly recommends that you don't do this as
they have seen unexpected results in low load density.

You don't want "unexpected results" . . . . . . .

Bill

[felix]

Actually, they all do! It's just a question of their initiating spark and/or vibes. Both of these are dependent on their volume percentage withing the bomb and the bomb's configuration. A cartridge is nothing but a bomb with its dimensions being able to move in a controlled manner, hopefully in time before yield. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Most slower burning ball powders (H110 and 296 fall in this category) have retardants that control the burn rate. That makes them difficult to ignite consistently in low density loads and they only burn efficiently at or above certain pressure levels. The faster burning pistol/shotgun ball powders are exceptions. H110/296 can be used successfully with heavy for cartridge cast bullets in some cartridges with low loading density. There are much better powders to use in low loading density loads. Of course in some cartridges it H110 and 296 really perform well but those are at or close to 100%+ loading density.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

These powders behave unpredictably in low density situations, which is why the companies
that sell them (one company, now) strongly recommends that you don't do this as
they have seen unexpected results in low load density.

You don't want "unexpected results" . . . . . . .

Bill
It is not the only powder that will have a problem, even easy to ignite powders will do bad things.
I have never figured out what more airspace does except maybe primer pressure moves the powder too far from the flame. Reduced flame with distance might be the cause.
Have the primer push out the boolit and then have the powder light off can be a huge problem.
So does freebore in a gun cause a boolit movement problem, even a long revolver cylinder. The revolver has an escape hatch.
A small batch of fast powder in a large case can explode and reach peak pressure before a boolit moves much or it might not light at all. Most times peak pressure is well below steel strength limits.
It is always better to have the right charge ignite, build slower and keep burning behind the boolit as it goes up the bore.
Start the powder with no lag time before primer pressure can move the boolit. Let the powder push.

[kelbro]

Did you use a filler?

[Leadmelter]

Negative on the filler. As their manual indicates, maintain a 90% fill rate for H-110/WW296.
Use a different powder if that does not fit your specs.
Gerry

[felix]

Well, yes, Jim, "Reduced flame with distance might be the cause". A more probable cause of too much air space (caused by any reason) is the ability for a wave to travel unimpeded from the boolit back towards the primer. A filler of any sort, such as more powder, or a sloping case, or both, have great wave attenuation properties and usually provide for more accurate ammo. Condoms tend to cater to bottle necked square cases. ... felix

[Ole]

Using H110/WW296 in reduced charges:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/boy2.jpg

Just because you "can", doesn't mean you "should". :)

[MT Gianni]

The RCBS cast bullet manual list some loads with H-110 as a rifle powder without 90% density. Very wise reloaders I trust convinced me a long time ago not to try them.

[44man]

Well, yes, Jim, "Reduced flame with distance might be the cause". A more probable cause of too much air space (caused by any reason) is the ability for a wave to travel unimpeded from the boolit back towards the primer. A filler of any sort, such as more powder, or a sloping case, or both, have great wave attenuation properties and usually provide for more accurate ammo. Condoms tend to cater to bottle necked square cases. ... felix
Exactly, one can be a failure to light and the next can be the S.E.E. event.
I have grown to never believe even loading manuals or loads in gun rags.
Anyone that reloads should be a thinking man first. Put your imagination into the brass and visualize the process.
Felix, you always have great answers, simple, to the point, with less words then I can use! :drinks:

[swheeler]

There was an article maybe a decade ago about ringed chambers in 308 rifles, the author believed H110 was the culprit. IIRC a certain gun club had several members shooting cast bullets in 308's with H110 powder, all or several? ended up with ringed chambers. I tried cast bullet loads in 223 with H110 and stopped shooting after a few rounds over the chronograph, I was using published data.

[michiganvet]

I use H110 for rifle loads.... .30 carbine, .357 mag, .44 mag. For reduced load in REAL rifles, Unique is one good choice.

[shotman]

I saw a load for the 30 carbine useing 110 . Only thing I used it for was a 410 shot shell and that is compressed. The load for the carbine and cast is very close to compressed. And could be if you wanted a little hotter. But what surprized me was it shot GOOD and for a 30 carbine in a rugar hand gun was not loud. The 311359 needs to seat at very top of drive band to work in the cylinder so that helps to get a no air space load

[HARRYMPOPE]

I shot over 16# of 296 and h110 in the 308 (17-19g 180-200g bullet) with cast back in the 1990's.It was first used in the 308 by California CBA shooters and they were wining a lot of matches.RCBS included loads for it in their one and only cast bullet manual because of this.Ed Harris had Olin test some loads with cast and w296 and while they didn't blow any guns up they had enough velocity irregularities to not recommend it.if it makes you nervous dont use it, there are plenty of powders that do just as well.I still use it but only with the loads above.it is very uniform velocity wise by the way.

HMP

[MtGun44]

I beleive that this was the powder developed for the .30 Carbine in military loading, and then
used for magnum pistol loads, which are ballistically similar. A fairly specialized powder in
my opinion, and personally, I'm going to stay away from light loads in the larger rifle
cartridges. Your face, your gun, have at it but I think you are walking on thin ice. I guess
my biggest question is "WHY"? There are lots of other powders that are very predictable and
produce the same sort of loads.

You could also hang from your fingertips on a ledge 20 stories up and get away with it many
times, but why would you?

Bill

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE=

You could also hang from your fingertips on a ledge 20 stories up and get away with it many
times, but why would you?
Bill[/QUOTE]

True, and i dont recommend others using it but i never have shot better groups in the 308 Winchester with any other powder.That's the "why" for me.I just figured i would report my first hand experience.For me and my very narrow range of charges and one particular case(308) its fine.

HMP