hunting cast performance

[bigted]

ok i been playing with these boolits in my 45-70;s and soon the 38-55 cases for awhile now. i have confined my play to the range to this point as i cant seem to get a final answer as to the killing capability of these cast pills.

id love to hunt with these cast boolits but don't seem to find an answer as to the killing capability's of them as to the shape and hardness value.

one writer finds that his cast boolits take 3 to 4 rounds to do the killin and another writes about the sudden DRT capability's of lead cast boolits.

i have round nose molds as well as Keith type semi-woodcutters. i have used ww as my casting media so far but have other lead on the way for experimenting with that will stand up closely to the lyman #2 mix.

what i want is a good compromise of penetration along with the expansion that will do the killing fast and mercifully.

any help from you would be appreciated greatly.......till i get satisfactory answers ill stick with my hunting loads for the hunting field that consist of smokeless and jacketed bullets. im very particular about the performance of loads on game when bringing home meat is the task of the day. also i have the great pleasure of being alone in the woods with big toothed and sometimes angry predators and want to know my loads will work every time i need em to...lol

thanks all

[quilbilly]

To find out the effectiveness of CB's in hunting, just ask a muzzleloading hunter.
A flatter nose 255 gr boolit at 1400 fps terminal velocity is absolutely devastating on elk (I use a 429 cal 255 gr SWC with a sabot in my .50 cal muzzleloader). From that experience, when I switched to modern firearms two years ago due to season changes, I adjusted my .444 Marlin CB loads to match my muzzleloader loads for hunting Roosevelt elk near the Washington coast. My MV in the .444 is 1750 fps.
I can say similar things about deer but I have found that with that smaller game, there is such a thing as "too much gun". Using a huge, hardened conical CB at the higher velocity for elk often tends to make make a "little-hole-in/little-hole-out" unless you hit a big bone. For deer I adjust projectiles and velocites to the game so there is less need for chasing a wounded animal.
Hunting with CB's requires a certain amount of abandoning conventional wisdom of jacketed bullets. It also requires testing with stacks of wet phone books at 50 yards to see what you really need which, of course, is the fun part.
Happiness is a warm barrel and warm gut pile.

[pdawg_shooter]

Cast pure with 2% tin and paper patch. Pure will handle around 2200fps and it makes a fine hunting bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

bigted

Are bullets GC'd or PB'd?

What velocity range are you looking for?

Larry Gibson

[44man]

To find out the effectiveness of CB's in hunting, just ask a muzzleloading hunter.
A flatter nose 255 gr boolit at 1400 fps terminal velocity is absolutely devastating on elk (I use a 429 cal 255 gr SWC with a sabot in my .50 cal muzzleloader). From that experience, when I switched to modern firearms two years ago due to season changes, I adjusted my .444 Marlin CB loads to match my muzzleloader loads for hunting Roosevelt elk near the Washington coast. My MV in the .444 is 1750 fps.
I can say similar things about deer but I have found that with that smaller game, there is such a thing as "too much gun". Using a huge, hardened conical CB at the higher velocity for elk often tends to make make a "little-hole-in/little-hole-out" unless you hit a big bone. For deer I adjust projectiles and velocites to the game so there is less need for chasing a wounded animal.
Hunting with CB's requires a certain amount of abandoning conventional wisdom of jacketed bullets. It also requires testing with stacks of wet phone books at 50 yards to see what you really need which, of course, is the fun part.
Happiness is a warm barrel and warm gut pile.
Exactly right. Research what I have said about too hard and too fast.

[giz189]

Big Ted, I have been using my 45-70 for a couple of years now with the Gould Bullet which weighs 340 grs with my alloy, which was about 40 - 1, if my lead was pure. But it is soft, like in the 6 - 7 bhn range. I just use that for guidelines for my alloy, I ain't saying that it is exactly that. I limit my shots to 100-150 yards. I haven't recovered a boolit yet, but have not had to track one up either(deer). I also use this boolit in my muzzle loader as do some of my friends with 100 grs of FF black. It does kill conclusively well. Were I you, I'd not be afraid to use my cast boolits for hunting, but they do need to be flat pointed or hp'd for best results in my opinion, not necessarily the law in shooting cast. Best of luck in whatever you do.

[bigted]

my velocity's have been around the 11 to 1200 fps for the 500's. around 12 to 1300 for the 400's all of which are 458 cal. also mostly pb boolits with the exception of the 500 rcbs which is a gc boolit that im considering reaming the gc groove off making it a pb boolit.

speed is not a concern for me!

[btroj]

Get a 400 gr in the 45-70 to 1300 or so with a nice, big, flat nose and it will do all the killing you need. It will create plenty of wound and will penetrate like no tomorrow.
I have had one bad experience in 45-70 and it was all my fault. Wrong bullet, wrong alloy, wrong speed. All others have been one shot kills. Not DRT but plenty quick for me. DRT is usually a shot which hit something major in the nervous system. Not many heart, lung shots are DRT. Who cares unless the cover is so thick you can't find them.

[Canuck Bob]

I've not used cast for big game but am working up a cast 444 round this summer.

The one aspect of hunting performance that I like about cast is the designs and velocities with big bore weapons promote less meat damage and one often reads reports of "eating to the hole".

It is not uncommon on deer to lose a whole front quarter to bloodshot meat with a Magnum small bore.

[Blammer]

I would use the SWC boolits instead of the round nose one's. You'll get better results.

I would suggest WW boolits Air cooled or softer for great results.

[44man]

I've not used cast for big game but am working up a cast 444 round this summer.

The one aspect of hunting performance that I like about cast is the designs and velocities with big bore weapons promote less meat damage and one often reads reports of "eating to the hole".

It is not uncommon on deer to lose a whole front quarter to bloodshot meat with a Magnum small bore.
At about 1300 to 1350 fps and you can use hard FP's. But I can tell you for a fact that a soft boolit with a HP shot about 1600 fps or more will destroy an entire shoulder so you will think it was shot with a Weatherby. :veryconfu
You will not believe what a .54 round ball did to one deer! :bigsmyl2:
Nothing compared to a deer I shot at a dead run at better then 200 yards with a .280. Bloodshot from the head to tail. I sold the rifle!
The line between killing quick and destruction is too close.

[cbrick]

bigted, here is a book with a great deal of info on hunting with cast. It is a great read and will answer many if not all of your questions.

From Ingot to Target (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

Rick

[Dutch4122]

my velocity's have been around the 11 to 1200 fps for the 500's. around 12 to 1300 for the 400's all of which are 458 cal. also mostly pb boolits with the exception of the 500 rcbs which is a gc boolit that im considering reaming the gc groove off making it a pb boolit.
speed is not a concern for me!

An alloy that may be useful to you with those weight boolits in that velocity range is 30-35% wheelweight and 65-70% pure lead, water dropped from the mold. After a couple of weeks it will harden to approximately the same level as Lyman #2; but will not be nearly as brittle if you strike bone. This alloy will also be more maleable and is very accurate.

Hope this helps,

[JDL]

You will not believe what a .54 round ball did to one deer! :bigsmyl2:


Oh yes I would!! I had to discard the whole front quarter of a deer I shot with only 85 grains of FFg. And nowadays the popular notion is to use 150 grains??

JDL

[BruceB]

Or, just do a search here for "softpoint". The thread on "BruceB's Cast Softpoints" was last active on May 5....it's a long one.

Many members are reporting excellent results with bullets cast with pure-lead noses and harder shanks.

This does NOT require any new or different moulds....just use whatever design shoots well for you. This has the additional benefit that NON_softpoints can be used for practise and zeroing, saving the higher-effort softpoints for actual shots on game.

[Larry Gibson]

With the correct alloys you can use smaller calibers at higher velocities for extended range, if you need it with where you hunt and the style of hunting). Quite frankly I long ago quit using the 45-70 out of a rifle on little deers unless velocity was held down to trapdoor levels under 1300 fps. Just too much meat damage as already noted. A 270 gr soft SWCHP out of a .44 magnum at 1400 fps does just about as much as is needed for close range work. If expected shots are from 50 - 200 yards then a 170 - 200 gr bullet out of a .30/.31 cal cast soft and HP'd at 1900 - 2200 fps does extremely well with minimal meat damage. The .35 Rem with the 35-200-FN cast soft and HP'd at 2150 fps is fast becomeing my "standard" cast bullet rifle for deer. Excellent performance out to 200 yards, again with minimal meat damage.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

With the correct alloys you can use smaller calibers at higher velocities for extended range, if you need it with where you hunt and the style of hunting). Quite frankly I long ago quit using the 45-70 out of a rifle on little deers unless velocity was held down to trapdoor levels under 1300 fps. Just too much meat damage as already noted. A 270 gr soft SWCHP out of a .44 magnum at 1400 fps does just about as much as is needed for close range work. If expected shots are from 50 - 200 yards then a 170 - 200 gr bullet out of a .30/.31 cal cast soft and HP'd at 1900 - 2200 fps does extremely well with minimal meat damage. The .35 Rem with the 35-200-FN cast soft and HP'd at 2150 fps is fast becomeing my "standard" cast bullet rifle for deer. Excellent performance out to 200 yards, again with minimal meat damage.

Larry Gibson
Yep, find what works with experience. The .35 is a super deer gun.

[white eagle]

Larry when you say soft what...
bhn do you like to see ???

[onondaga]

If the Lee 457-340-RN-F will fit your 45-70, I think it is a hard bullet to beat. My mold drops .459 with Lyman #2 alloy. I shoot this at 45-70 load levels in my .458 Win Mag. The flat nose is big enough to seriously smack meat alone but the #2 alloy should reasonably be expected to expand boolits to twice their diameter at ranges where there is at least 1000 foot pounds of energy left. The #2 alloy is soft enough to seriously expand with that amount of energy.

You can easily get these ballistics from my .458 with a 45-70 and the same boolit:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/458Bal.jpg

Look at the trajectory when sighted in at 2 inches high for 50 yards. I like this trajectory and have had no trouble killing deer/bear here in NY with the load at any range.

I originally got this rifle as bear protection backup when bow hunting Musk Ox a bit north of you. This load was carried afield with confidence.

Gary