WOW that's hot, Buffalo Bore

[JTknives]

I posted this on ammo guide and got scolded for posting powder charge weight so i though i would see what you guys thought. i was wondering about how buffalo bore got the velocity thy got with there 325gr boolits. and now that i have a 325gr mould i would like to venture back into that area. here is my origanial post on ammo guide that got blocked lol.


Well i pulled a buffalo bore load and took some measurements. the 325gr LBT is .877 long and the round is seated to and OAL of 1.686-1.688 and has 25grs of powder in its case.
The powder looks and smells IDENTICAL to W296/H110. This is NOT load data but what i found in a buffalo bore case. I plug these numbers in to Quick loads and i do indeed get the numbers i am seeing in my vaquero but the pressure is 46,000 psi. This cant be right can it. I had QL do a search out of all the powder and W296 had the lowest pressure out of them all. Im a bit worried if Buffalo bore is actually loading these loads to 46,000 psi.

well after doing some searching i found out that buffalo bore does not use any componits that are not of the shelf that Joe blow could not buy. Also in my search i found that w296/h110 is the BEST powder for the 45colt with heavy boolits. so if i put 2 and 2 together im fairly confident in that BB uses one of those powders. also i have seen load data from other people and also IMR that use very large quanitys of w296 so i know im on the right track. actually IMR uses 24grs with a boolit seated much deeper then mine.

so just for kicks lets say that BB does use W296 (Im not saying he does). the boolits he loads are .877 long where mine are .840 and his are loaded to 1.688 and mine are loaded to 1.73. so all in all my loads have .079-.080 more case capacity so if his 25grs of powder are safe in his loads then it should be safe in mine. this is assuming he uses W296/H110, if not then all bets are off.

I know lots of you have played with these stomping loads and so if you got some good load data for me i would be in your debt. Thanks

[nicholst55]

Assuming (which is a very dangerous thing to do) that Buffalo Bore does use either H110 or W296 in those loads, they are very stout, indeed! Even John Linebaugh (http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm) isn't quite that optimistic about heavy .45 Colt loads. John lists a 310-320 grain cast bullet over 24.0 grains of H110 for 1250 fps, and recommends such loads for dangerous game.

IMHO, any bullet or boolit of 300 grains or over loaded to right around 1000 FPS will hit like the hammer of Thor, and kill anything on the North American continent - maybe not before it kills you, though. If I were spending a lot of time in big brown bear country and had to carry a handgun, I might consider loading it a bit hotter. I'd be much more content with a medium-bore rifle, though.

Not wanting to further aggravate my carpal tunnel and arthritis, I think that I will personally avoid loads that warm in my handguns.

[BABore]

Never assume!

What looks like WW 296/H110 could also be WC 297, Alliant 300-MP, or one of the Primex non-canister powders like Primex 513 or 516. If I had to really know, I would dump a few BB cases and work up the powder side-by-side with equivilent charges of 296/110 and chronograph them. You could still see enough variation from lot to lot to never be quite sure.

Buffalo Bore does pressure test their stuff, but they do run right on the ragged edge. The boolit's protrusion into the case is important, but so is the hardness, bearing length, and bearing surface area. They all affect pressure. I guess you just have to ask yourself if a few extra fps are going to be worth the risks to you, the gun, and the other people your decision will affect.

[44man]

I use 21.5 gr of 296 with the Fed 150 primer in my Vaquero. 1160 fps with the 335 gr LBT.
That is the accuracy point and any increase starts to open groups. Recoil is still stout and there is no reason to add more powder.
BB goes to the ragged edge but none of their hot loads will match my accuracy. My loads have done 1" at 75 yards with the crude sights.
The boolit will go through a 16" boxelder tree and has dropped deer just over 100 yards.
This load is perfect with the Lyman 452651.
Babore is correct, never assume anything. Stay away from trying to match any load.
Don't even match my load until you do your own workup. Your starting load will be 19.5 gr for the 325 gr. 296 can be worked 1/2 gr at a time. Once groups are tight, QUIT!

[JTknives]

ya i know not to assume, it was just interesting so see what buffalo bore does. maybe I will call them and see if thy will tell me what powder thy use.

44man are you water/heatreating your boolits. I'm wanting to work up a good hunting load then spend all summer becoming good with it. then take it out elk hunting this year.

[Char-Gar]

I am against;

1. Assuming that BB uses standard powders for Tim Sundles does not.

2. Giving load data on this site, particularity heavy loads. The giver doesn't know how the data will be used and the user doesn't know if the data is reliable. Good way to become a one handed blind man.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Another data point is the Hodgdon site shows a Cast Performance 325 gr PB LFN over 21.0 to 24.0 gr H110. COL is listed as 1.680. MV 1109 to 1240 fps.

[Glen]

Loading .45 Colt ammo to 46,000 psi peak pressure would be a recipe in disaster (not to mention litigation). I seriously doubt that they are using 296/H110 for these loads. My guess is that they are using some other slower burning ball powder (for example AA 1680) for loads like this.

[leadman]

I have loaded 24gr of H110 with the Lee 300gr boolit in the 45 Colt. It is a handful.
I have also tried WC680 in amounts I won't name in the 45 Colt with the same boolit and did not have good results. I think the expansion ratio is too great as 680 did not burn well.

WC680 works great in the 44 mag with the Lee 310gr boolit.

I would not try to match a load I pulled apart.

[felix]

In the late issue 94's (1990 era) I have used a full volume uncompressed of WC680 and RL7, 28 and 25 grains respectively, with a LBT 315 grainer, 45 Colt. No problems, except for the case expansion in that excessive chamber which would destroy cases in no time. A 20 inch barrel will burn the powder satisfactorily. Each load delivers beer can accuracy at a hunnert. Recoil is not friendly for more than a few rounds, however. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

I would also caution about "assuming" the load is 46,000 psi based on a guestimated computation, could be less or could be more. That "assumption" is based on my experience with Quickload and actually measuring psi via the Oehler M43. Too many variables in addition to those pointed out by BaBore.

Larry Gibson

[JTknives]

I think people need to be smart with there reloading. its not my job to protect every one from being stupid. I did not list load data, and I actually said that its not load data. I think its funny how people automatically jump to "thy use blended or non canister powders" just because thy get higher vel then what we are accustom to. like was said, IMR lists 24grs under a 325 cast boolit and that's only 27,400 cup. I have read and think that BB uses existing load data and just pushes it to the top end.

[turbo1889]

I think people need to be smart with there reloading. its not my job to protect every one from being stupid. I did not list load data, and I actually said that its not load data. . .

I agree as far as the individuals who blow steam out their ears like a locomotive and hit the ceiling anytime someone puts out a charge level number. I have dealt with their kind in the past and they are no different then radical religious extremist zealots along the lines of those who participated in the Inquisition, the reign of Bloody Marry, and currently found in Middle Eastern hell holes. If it comes to a point on this forum where they have a rule against posting charge levels and the mods. get after you for posting charge levels then I will leave this forum and never come back.

That said, I think it is very unwise to try to attempt to pin down a charge level for the canister powders commonly available to us reloaders based off of pulling apart a commercial load and guessing at what powder they used. As far as non-canister powders go, they are cheaper for commercial loaders who load in bulk to purchase then canister powders. Based on that alone I would think it would be the considerable exception to the norm that a commercial operation of any considerable volume would load ammo with canister powder. That, however, is merely an opinion.

[44man]

ya o know not to assume, it was just interesting so see what buffalo bore does. maybe I will call them and see if thy will tell me what powder thy use.

44man are you water/heatreating your boolits. I'm wanting to work up a good hunting load then spend all summer becoming good with it. then take it out elk hunting this year.
I just water drop WW boolits. Then let them age for a week or so to harden.
My loads are NOT MAX so those that don't like loads posted must realize I have nothing more then book loads worked to accuracy and never any more.
You still need to start and I always caution to see what your gun does.
I will never give any load for pure velocity so don't jump on anyone's super fast loads even if from a gun rag. I would not shoot some of that stuff! I am very, very cautious when loading and will look at info for weeks before ever putting a drop of powder in a case.
Safety first! Nothing else matters.

[Harter66]

Off track, but not, warning.

I did an expiment once with my RBH Colts I don't recall as of now the charge . What I do remember was that I started long ,thinking better throat alignment smaller groups turns out it didn't matter,and worked back to minimum length w/o a change of charge. In 0,02 steps the longest load at nearly Casaull length IIRC gave 875 or so w/the 5th load giving nearly 1200fps . Given this was the 255 LEE rnfp and H110.

I'm not sure how this fits exactly . BB may use a special spec case or even an obtainable but obscure powder too.

Maybe what I wanted to say is just because it worked on paper doesn't make it a good idea.

[BABore]

Buffalo Bore lists this 45 Colt+P load as

Heavy .45 Colt +P - 325 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,325fps/M.E.1,267 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box

They go on with what firearms this load is acceptable in and then a series of exterior ballistic tables at various velocities. In the FAQ section it is asked why the various velocities. They go on to explain how they don't know what the firearm will be and how velocities can vary, so they cover the full range of possibilities.

I would just about guarantee that BB sends all their ammo out for independent lab pressure testing. The load is likely 5-10% below SAAMI max pressure for the guns listed it be used in. The powder used is a non-canister grade that they tweaked the load with. I have a buddy that is getting set up for loading commercial ammo for high-end levergun loads. His testing and procedures consist of mind-boggling extremes that he must do to satisfy the ATF and various liability insurance agencies. There is no load-er to the gills check box on their forms. A proper, approved, QC plan must be followed and it's checked.

What you are not seeing in BB load description is what their rounds were tested in. It was likely a 10 inch, closed breech, minimum test barrel with a throat that was not typical of the firearms it would be eventually fired in. I've seen lab test reports from both Hodgdon and White labs for some 450 Marlin loads that my buddy and I were working on in unison. While our leverguns showed similar velocities, and pressures we thought to be about maximum, the lab data was a real eye opener.

[JTknives]

I just water drop WW boolits. Then let them age for a week or so to harden.
My loads are NOT MAX so those that don't like loads posted must realize I have nothing more then book loads worked to accuracy and never any more.
You still need to start and I always caution to see what your gun does.
I will never give any load for pure velocity so don't jump on anyone's super fast loads even if from a gun rag. I would not shoot some of that stuff! I am very, very cautious when loading and will look at info for weeks before ever putting a drop of powder in a case.
Safety first! Nothing else matters.

yes i love my vaquero way to much to let it explode lol

[44man]

BB uses a lot of Starline brass and Double Tap uses a lot of WW brass.
But you have no idea what powder is used and even if it is the same as you can buy, it might not be the same burn rate as a canister powder. Leave it alone!

[a.squibload]

There's a pickup truck full of bricks traveling down the highway.
You are attempting to cross the highway.
Here's where accuracy comes into play:
If the truck misses you there will be no effect.
If the truck hits you it will not matter whether it was moving at the posted speed limit
or 10 mph faster.

Priorities:
Freedom of speech (we can decide what to do with info we read),
Safety (we work up our own loads not wanting to cause injury),
Accuracy (see feeble pickup analogy above),
Velocity (if it ain't fast enough, you might want to consider another cartridge).

You know I can't help it, gotta spout off...

[TonyM]

I'm not sure why you would want to get that boolit to those velocities in that caliber... thats why they made the 454 CASULL. Those velocities are very easy to obtain, with great accuracy, using known safe load data, and components readily available in any reloading isle...

If you're that hard up on trying to reproduce what BB is putting out for the 45LC, pick up a 454 (They can be had in many flavors for $700 or less, cheaper still if you pick up a used one) and save yourself the headache/and possible injury... :coffee:

Just my free .02, and remember you get what you pay for :drinks:

[XWrench3]

i am not going to scold you for playing around with hot loads. first off, i think everyone has the right to be treated as an adult, with respect. secondly, i think that at one time or another, most of us have played with, at least to some extent, over pressure loads. we all know the risks. if the gun blows apart, it is not like you will be standing there asking who plugged the end of the barrel with their finger. now, i am just a little confused, so please help me out. what are you really trying to do, duplicate B.B.'s load, or are you trying to get close to that with your boolit? also, you stated you would like to use it on elk. at what distance are you figuring as max? and i guess i will make an assumption of my own here. that the reason you do not just buy the BB loads is because of the price, correct? i guess my BIG concern is running full +P loads in it all summer long for practice. that is going to be fairly hard on the gun isn't it???

[onesonek]

I'm not sure why you would want to get that boolit to those velocities in that caliber... thats why they made the 454 CASULL. Those velocities are very easy to obtain, with great accuracy, using known safe load data, and components readily available in any reloading isle...

If you're that hard up on trying to reproduce what BB is putting out for the 45LC, pick up a 454 (They can be had in many flavors for $700 or less, cheaper still if you pick up a used one) and save yourself the headache/and possible injury... :coffee:

Just my free .02, and remember you get what you pay for :drinks:

I look at it a lot like that,,,,,,,,
Instead of pushing the extreme, it's makes more sense just to get a bigger whatever to handle the need or want. In this case a bigger gun and or cartridge..
My firearms are pretty much tools I like to keep in good working order. To me it makes no sense in possibly wrecking one, or hurting myself or someone else, for a 100 or 200 extra fps.

[dbldblu]

I read somewhere that Buffalo Bore uses non-canister power pistol in there .38 special loads that give a 158 SWC 1000 fps out of a snub nose. Charger also indicates that they use non-canister powders.

OP, I would rethink your expectation that they use off the shelf powders. I also agree you should get a .454 if you want to operate in this area.

[white eagle]

I don't think I would worry about trying to match their loads
unless you have the equipment to do all the accurate testing.... just buy theirs
I have been working with a 340 gr load and what 44 says is true
my groups anyway ,.,.started to open up at 22.0 gr H.110 and held tight at 21.0-21.5 of the same powder H.110
best of luck on your race

[JTknives]

im not exzactley trying to duplicate there loads. im wanting to push my 330gr boolit to between 1000 and 1300fps. and where ever the accuracy is i will stop. my first post was just concerning the bb loads and wondering about them. my boolit give about .08 more case capacity then the BB boolits so i think i can do what i need at less pressure. really im just looking at a place to start with these boolits. and how to proceed with testing and load work up.

[Buddy]

I'd be careful, W296 does have a fairly narrow operating range. Reduced loads with W296 is NOT a good idea. You can get the velocities you are looking for with other powders just as easily.

[bigboredad]

I also shoot a 340 and like white eagle and .44man I have found 21.5 of 296 to be amazing. I've also seen 21 shoot like **** I ran out of powder before I got to 22 and to be honest my hands were getting a little sore. I really can't see what the extra powder could add but I am really curious to see what you can find out just be careful. The .45 doesn't show the usual signs of over pressure except for sticky cases when you get to that point stop. Or continue and give me a call I may need to sell a .45 that week:kidding:
good luck

[Phillip]

Hodgdon does have a H110 load for what it seems you my have........

325 GR. CPB LFN PB H110 .452" 1.680" 21.0 1109 18,100 CUP 24.0 1266 27,400 CUP

And it is only recommended in the Blackhawk FA and TC guns.

If any thing, I would look at what Hodgdon recommends to be safe.

[44man]

im not exzactley trying to duplicate there loads. im wanting to push my 330gr boolit to between 1000 and 1300fps. and where ever the accuracy is i will stop. my first post was just concerning the bb loads and wondering about them. my boolit give about .08 more case capacity then the BB boolits so i think i can do what i need at less pressure. really im just looking at a place to start with these boolits. and how to proceed with testing and load work up.
Accuracy will be at 21.5 gr of 296 and yes 296 is better in the Ruger then H110 except for the RH. Just a slight burn rate difference.
I am concerned about whether the Vaquero is the new, lighter gun.
But if BB ammo is being shot, it should be OK.
I have no experience with the newer gun, I am not a cowboy action shooter and want tough hunting guns.
I have no idea what the pressure is with a 330, 335 gr boolit and 21.5 gr of 296 but it can't be that high, not more then a lighter boolit at max. Recoil will get you first! ;)
A friend went to 30 gr of 296 in his old Vaquero with the 335 gr LBT without a stuck case. WARNING-WARNING, DO NOT DO THAT.
NEVER depend on stuck brass or flat primers, you play with the devil.

[selmerfan]

The only difference in burn rate between 296 and H110 is lot to lot variation. They are the exact same powder produced in the exact same plant and sent to different companies for distribution. This has been confirmed over and over by Hodgdon and Winchester-Olin. Start below and work up loads, just like any other process.

[44man]

The only difference in burn rate between 296 and H110 is lot to lot variation. They are the exact same powder produced in the exact same plant and sent to different companies for distribution. This has been confirmed over and over by Hodgdon and Winchester-Olin. Start below and work up loads, just like any other process.
It is more then lot to lot. Each company had their own lots. WW got one burn rate and Hodgdon got another. The difference could be seen in groups.
H110 always needed 1/2 gr more. It never matched 296 groups.

[selmerfan]

Hmm, when I was running a .454 Casull barrel on my Encore the data was interchangeable, as were the velocities and accuracy loads with 260-360 gr. boolits. This led to me investigating the relationship between the two powders and I emailed both companies. They both corroborated that the powders were exactly the same, any variation was strictly lot to lot variation, and that's how I've used the two powders ever since with excellent results. Maybe the revolvers are more finicky?

[44man]

Hmm, when I was running a .454 Casull barrel on my Encore the data was interchangeable, as were the velocities and accuracy loads with 260-360 gr. boolits. This led to me investigating the relationship between the two powders and I emailed both companies. They both corroborated that the powders were exactly the same, any variation was strictly lot to lot variation, and that's how I've used the two powders ever since with excellent results. Maybe the revolvers are more finicky?
They are exactly the same powders but WW got one burn rate and Hodgdon got another batch.
Now that hodgdon has both powders, they might be the same. I still use 296.

[selmerfan]

Interesting - thanks for the additional info on the reason the powders are named and marketed differently!

[Buddy]

I've used 296 in 44 mag for years. Never saw any use for H110 because 296 gave me what I was looking for. I'm kind of split on the issue of reduced loads or "Oh, the recoil is so much I think I'm going to try this or that." I shoot full power loads most of the time. If I didn't care for the recoil I wouldn't shoot the big guns. I really love the 500 S&W but I can kill 'em just as dead with a 310gr boolit @ 1500fps out of an 8" Dan Wesson 744. My theory FWIW is the magnum cartridges are just that. They were developed for one reason, more power/heavier projectiles. Not to be downloaded to wimpy velocities. I'm getting carried away here, sorry. My favorite magnum powders are W296 and 2400. Either one should do well in any large pistol cartridge with a little experimenting. I have not tried the big bullets in 45 Colt but what some shooters are doing with it is pretty darned immpressive.

[BABore]

Bottom line is WW 296 is a magnum pistol powder that burns most efficiently and shoot most accurately at top end. Max load is typically just at or very near the point of compression. Chronograph data will commonly show max velocity and extremely low ES exactly when the accuracy peaks. Hotter loads will show increased ES and many times the same or even lower velocity than the previous charge. It thrives on heavy for caliber boolits and likes good case neck tension and crimp. Light for caliber cast boolits can give erratic results because there's not enough resistance for good burn pressure. It may or may not need a magnum primer, but that is based on the case volume and individual gun.

If you don't want to run max loads in your gun and want to be a 100 to 200 fps below where 296 peaks, use another powder. Alliant 2400 will typically max out 50-100 fps below what 296 is capable of. It also has a wider peak burn range which will allow you to reduce the load and still get respectable accuracy. Another option is Alliant's 300-MP. It's a little slower than 296 and not quite as fussy. Being slower burning you will be compressing a load pretty good before it max's out and velocity will be a little lower than than 296 unless your using a longer barrel.

[NHlever]

I know folks mean well, but asking such questions without mentiong the caliber is not a good place to start. The other thing is that while we can equal factory 45-70 loads using a .45 Colt rifle, it is not a good plan to try to do it in factory .45 Colt handguns. The big question is why? Why even think about it when we have the .454 Casull, and the .460 S&W........ why? Well, I suppose that one might be seekng a very powerful load in a light handgun, and I admit to dooing that myself, but using pressure tested load data from current loading manuals only. I have also seen more guns blown up under controlled circumstances that most folks, and I don't want that happening in my hands. I have also sectioned revolver barrels that had more than a cylinder full of bullets stuck in them. Apparently, the folks that sent in these guns didn't stop "shooting" until a bullet bridged the cylinder opening, and tied up the gun. :D Have fun out there guys, and gals, but use your head, and be safe.

[44man]

What Babore said!
296 and H110 are the best for top loads and I have never seen it "spike" with a tiny bit more powder.
2400 is good for reducing loads but add a few more tenths of a gr and it will "spike." A tad more powder and it will stick brass.
Some want to get 1400 fps with Unique and trying for that with 2400 is as bad, you need a rubber room! :kidding:
You can overload with 296 too and is why loads are worked for each bullet, boolit. Usually the most accurate load will be under max but I have seen some boolits that reached the best accuracy with a load too hot and I had to back off quick. I never load for velocity, only accuracy and even then, the best from a given boolit can be too much. Accuracy must suffer for safety with that boolit.

[BABore]

I know folks mean well, but asking such questions without mentiong the caliber is not a good place to start. The other thing is that while we can equal factory 45-70 loads using a .45 Colt rifle, it is not a good plan to try to do it in factory .45 Colt handguns. The big question is why? Why even think about it when we have the .454 Casull, and the .460 S&W........ why? Well, I suppose that one might be seekng a very powerful load in a light handgun, and I admit to dooing that myself, but using pressure tested load data from current loading manuals only. I have also seen more guns blown up under controlled circumstances that most folks, and I don't want that happening in my hands. I have also sectioned revolver barrels that had more than a cylinder full of bullets stuck in them. Apparently, the folks that sent in these guns didn't stop "shooting" until a bullet bridged the cylinder opening, and tied up the gun. :D Have fun out there guys, and gals, but use your head, and be safe.

The OP mentioned it was the 45 Colt in the first paragraph following the BB quote.

[JTknives]

Well after much conversation with 44man this is what came about. 330gr ruger onley boolit loaded over 21.5gr of w296. i will be testing them out on sat and will let you know how thy work.

Eat your heart out Buffalo Bore ;)
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/246830_2137566205724_1443189422_32544026_8220219_n .jpg

[felix]

Wow, those cases have sharp cuts down on the base area! The sizing is way to snug there. Cases 4 and 5 look OK. How come? Different lot? Different gun? ... felix

[bigboredad]

the first one almost looks like it is belted. What dies are you using?

[44man]

He is using Redding dies, carbide it looks like. Those dies are not tapered much at the bottom. Larger chambers and case expansion can show that line. As can other brass makes.
As long as brass will chamber, the die can be raised a little.
Cases can be neck sized to just below a seated boolit too but after a few shots, they will get hard to chamber.
Some experimenting with sizing depth can get rid of the line but cases must chamber.
It might be possible to polish the very edge off the carbide ring with a ball lap.
Accuracy will tell the tale if the expander is correct. I would like to see more boolit through the brass.