thinking of cutting my barrel.

[troy_mclure]

i just got a 28" cva hawken gamester .50 real cheap.

im thinking of cutting the barrel down 7"-10".

it will be a range only gun, using patched round balls, with 40-60 gr of powder, shooting 50-100 yards(mostly 50).

is there any reason not to cut the barrel?

will it increase the recoil much?

[John Taylor]

Velocity will drop and recoil will increase. Part of recoil is caused by escaping gas pressure, shorter barrel=higher pressure when the ball leaves. Lower velocity is cause by less time with pressure behind the ball.

[Maven]

"Is there any reason not to cut the barrel?"

Troy, Yes there is, at least initially. What if the 28" bbl. is a dog, and just isn't accurate? Why waste time & effort trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? (Sorry about mixing my metaphors.) Before you cut it, at least try to find which diameter RB (.490"? .495"? something in between?), patch thickness, powder granulation, and powder charge it likes best. Once that's done, go ahead and cut it down and let us know how it turns out.

[mooman76]

Just curious, but why are you wanting to cut the barrel down?

[Good Cheer]

I'd miss the length of barrel because of the reduction in sight radius.

[troy_mclure]

Just curious, but why are you wanting to cut the barrel down?

1) to loose some weight, lots of girls shoot with me that aren't very strong.

2) to make it a bit different.

[DIRT Farmer]

I cut down a cheepie to 16 inches when my boys were small. I know that a .50 ball over 35 grains of fffg makes a hole through both sides of a deer at 50 yds and under.

[roverboy]

If you want to, go for it. I personally cut one down about 15 years ago and wish I hadn't done it. It was a 26" T/C New Englander. I cut it to 20". Why, I don't really know. It didn't hurt the accuracy, but I can tell it hurt velocity. I killed a couple deer with it after I cut it.

[Rio Grande]

Velocity will drop and recoil will increase. Part of recoil is caused by escaping gas pressure, shorter barrel=higher pressure when the ball leaves. Lower velocity is cause by less time with pressure behind the ball.


I don't think 'escaping gas pressure' affects recoil in any way.
In these two examples you will notice it is not referenced as a factor in calculating recoil. The shorter barrel would result in less velocity which = lower recoil. Note the part of the referenced link which states "...the powder which burns outside of the barrel does not actually generate significant recoil."
The 'sensation' of recoil might be enhanced due to the louder muzzle blast.

Losing the weight of the cutoff portion of the barrel would increase recoil, but what amount that increase would be offset by the lower recoil caused by the reduced velocity of the bullet is something that would have to be calculated.

Alternatively, just go 'git 'er done', as we rednecks are fond of saying, then go to the range and subsequently enlighten us with some empirical data. If I was betting on this, I'd wager there would be a lot more recoil due to the disproportionate ratio of less weight to reduced velocity of projectile.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/FactorsOfRecoil

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

[John Taylor]

I don't think 'escaping gas pressure' affects recoil in any way.
In these two examples you will notice it is not referenced as a factor in calculating recoil. The shorter barrel would result in less velocity which = lower recoil. Note the part of the referenced link which states "...the powder which burns outside of the barrel does not actually generate significant recoil."
The 'sensation' of recoil might be enhanced due to the louder muzzle blast.

Losing the weight of the cutoff portion of the barrel would increase recoil, but what amount that increase would be offset by the lower recoil caused by the reduced velocity of the bullet is something that would have to be calculated.

Alternatively, just go 'git 'er done', as we rednecks are fond of saying, then go to the range and subsequently enlighten us with some empirical data.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/FactorsOfRecoil

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

Ever study muzzle brakes and why they work? Don't see them often on muzzle loaders but there are a few out there and they do work. Granted there will be a lot of unburned powder on a short muzzle loader but the pressure is still going to be higher with a short barrel when the ball leaves the muzzle. In testing muzzle brakes it was found that recoil could be cut by 50% on a 308 with a 22" barrel when a brake was installed. With longer barrels the brake had less effect. The escaping gas pressure has a big influence on recoil even in muzzle loaders. Now I'm not going on what someone ells has written, I did the testing myself.

Quote from http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/FactorsOfRecoil
"Barrel length: All other things being equal, a longer barrel will always result in more recoil. The longer the bullet is in the barrel, the longer it's being pushed by the gasses and the more kinetic energy is being provided. It's worth noting that very short barrels typically exhibit far less recoil than longer ones, at the expense of muzzle velocity. "

This guy is going by theory and not actual testing. I found just the opposite when escaping gas is involved in the recoil.

[troy_mclure]

ive found cutting 2" off my .44mag barrel quite lessened recoil, and increased blast.

[Screwbolts]

I would Cut it down, I believe you mentioned smaller framed people need a iron to shoot. your loads of 40gr. will be perfect. It is yours, have it your way! I would have already cut it down.

Ken

[Junior1942]

For several years I contemplated buying an extra 32" barrel for my Lyman GPH and cutting it to circa 20" for thicket hunting. That 32" barrel always had a vine or a small tree in its way when a deer stepped out. Using it in thickets, where I like to hunt, it was an exercise in frustration. Then Louisiana legalized Handi-Rifles for primitive weapon season, and I quit thinking about whacking off a GPH barrel. Actually, I believe I'd rather have a short Great Plains roundball rifle. So . . . looks like I'm NOT through thinking about whacking off a muzzleloader barrel....

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i dont think i woul cut a RIFLE BARREL WITH A STOCK on les then 16"1/4

[bubba.50]

so far at least the restriction on barrel length doesn't apply to muzzleloaders but as others have said-if you put much powder in that thing at all muzzle blast will be quite big(but might be fun at night). for what it's worth, bubba.

[Jim]

Junior, I've got a wrong handed Lyman GPR in .54 caplock. That's the model with the 1/66 twist for RBs. I just measured the barrel out past the metal fitting(bolster?) on the end of the stock. There's 16 inches of barrel past that fitting. I 'magine one could cut a good bit of barrel off the gun to shorten it up for use in thickets. You'd have to replace the front sight, of course, and you'd only have the groove in the stock to hold the shortened ramrod, but it looks like it could be made to work.

[gnoahhh]

If you got it cheap it might be worthy of a fun experiment. I would test it for accuracy and velocity with a wide range of loads as-is. Then cut it to whatever length you have in mind and re-test for accuracy and velocity with the same loads, and report back. It would be even more cool if you could lay your hands on a decibel meter to compare noise levels before and after too.

Personally I've never felt encumbered by long barreled MLs, even in the thick stuff where I hunt. The longer the barrel (the more weight forward) the better it'll hold for off-hand shooting too. To each his own!

[Junior1942]

I just looked at my 50 caliber GPH barrel. A fellow could easily cut 9" off the barrel. That would leave about 1" sticking past the bottom thimble, so a shortened ramrod would easily fit. There's a screw just in front of the bottom thimble which holds the bar to which the thimble is attached, so a cut would need to be 1/2" or so beyond the thimble. A 9" removal would work fine.

The hardest job would be cutting a new dovetail for a front sight. The rear 57 GPR receiver sight could stay as-is but with a new slide. I checked into that a few years ago when this idea was fresh in my mind, and I couldn't buy just a slide. I'd have to buy an entire new 57 GPR receiver sight and use just the slide.

But why would a fellow go to all that trouble and expense when he already has a short-barreled Traditions Buckskinner .50 caliber which shoots just fine? Well. . . that Lyman sure is a fine lookin' rifle......

PS: cutting off 9" from a 32" barrel still leaves a barrel 23" long. That's plenty short and plenty legal.

[bubba.50]

legal barrel lengths don't apply to muzzleloaders. i've seen percussion double-barrel "coach guns" for sale that had 14in barrels. for what it's worth and luck to ya friend, bubba.

[troy_mclure]

well tomorrow im gonna go shoot it with the long barrel. see how it shoots. accuracy isnt all that important, minute of pie plate at 50yds is fine. its just gonna be a fun plinker for the range.

now if i do decide to cut, how difficult is cutting a dovetail for the front sight? or should i get a screw on and drill and tap the barrel?

[Maven]

Troy, Take a look at KSCO's tutorial: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=33233

[mazo kid]

1) to loose some weight, lots of girls shoot with me that aren't very strong.

2) to make it a bit different.

Just curious, are these younger girls or full grown ones? If younger, are you also planning on cutting the buttstock so as to make it more comfortable to reach the trigger? I'm not at all familiar with the rifle you are planning to cut, so don't know what the length of pull is. Maybe not needed?

[troy_mclure]

they are full grown. the stock is long enough, but the muzzle tends to dip to the ground after just a few seconds.

[Geraldo]

Troy,

I passed a TC Hawken on another site that had been cut down to around 20". It looked great, and I thought it would be great for the same reasons as Junior. I have two TC barrels with the QLA, and either would make a good candidate for chopping. If I do it, I'll probably use a spare Contender from sight because it will be easier for me to drill and tap than cut a dovetail. My thinking was that 20-21" overall would still burn enough powder to do the job on short range shots in thick cover. Any shorter and I'd just use one of my pistols.

[DIRT Farmer]

It's not bad cutting a dove tail Troy. Mark the barrel leaving some room for error, make several cuts with a hacksaw to hog out the metal. grind one flat smooth on a three corner file. clean up the main cut and under cut the edges with the smooth side down in the base of the dovetail, then lightly tap out with a cold chizal to finish the dove tail.

[troy_mclure]

ill see what tools i have, and sights. i know i dont have some of the files, but i do have a tap set. if i have a low enough front sight i might just do that.

[gnoahhh]

The thing is with inexperienced shooters who have trouble keeping the muzzle up is that it doesn't take long to develop the muscle tone to counter that. By cutting down a barrel to circumvent that you may be doing them a disfavor in the long run.

[troy_mclure]

if i cant even get them to shoot the gun because it is "too heavy" there is less chance of them shooting more at all.
both girls love my scoped ar and marlin 60, im just trying to get them some variety.

[troy_mclure]

shot the gun today. shoots pretty good.
with 45gr pyrodex rs its pushing the ball at 848fps(5 shot average).

[mooman76]

How short did you end up chopping it?

[troy_mclure]

havent chopped it yet. still weighing my options. itll prolly get chopped at 21" or so.

[mooman76]

I have a CVA 50 cal that is 24" and it feels pretty good. I also have several That are 33". A little heavy but not to bad depending on the person of coarse. Whatever keeps them shooting though. It is fun once you get into it.

[troy_mclure]

well i got some stuff done on it today.

i cut 8.5" off the barrel, touched up the crown, sanded and oiled the stock(first coat), cut the ram rod to fit.

still to do: finish the muzzle(taper or not?), metal finish(blue or duracoat?) more oil on the stock(3-5 more coats), drill and tap for the front sight(looking for one now) and rod hanger.

before:
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/228919000/228919411/pix604999069.jpg

after:
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/troy_mclure_/100_0701.jpg

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/troy_mclure_/100_0699.jpg

[troy_mclure]

well i took it to the range today. it was getting odd results over the chrony.

before the barrel i was getting 848fps with 45gr of pyrodex rs.

today i forgot the loose powder so i crushed up some pyrodex 50/50 pellets.

using this i got:
1240fps @ 15'
1170fps @ 20'
1002fps @ 30'
1020fps @ 30'
1013fps @ 30'

i used the same patches and balls, seated to the same depth as with the pyrodex rs.

any ideas why i have such a great increase in velocity when im expecting a loss?

[thunderthud]

i'll say, I cant figure out how you're gettin' a couple hundred fps more out of a shorter barrel. Everything else the same the velocity is always less with a shorter barrel.

[gnoahhh]

Try it again with your regular powder and report back.

You sure did shorten it, didn't you!

[mooman76]

Just an educated guess but you are shooting low powder loads, so your gun has all ready burned up the powder and a longer barrel is just more drag on the bullet. Other than that try it again with the same pyrodex you used before and see what you get.

[Geraldo]

Pellet to powder performance is supposed to be equivalent, but there are still some variables. The pellets have a "starter" on one end to ignite them, and you crushed that up with the Pyro in pellet form. You could get three results, one with loose Pyro, one with intact pellets, and another with crushed pellets.

[troy_mclure]

well with the storms here today i skipped on the range, maybe sunday ill get to shoot it.

a thought i had was the rs is fairly coarse, the pellets crumbled up real fine, like priming powder for flintlocks.

could that have any influence?

[troy_mclure]

got it out yesterday.

using 45gr pyrodex, 5 shots, 15'.

5 shot average was 984fps.

i didnt record each shot this time, and i did use thicker patches.