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JTknives
06-05-2011, 03:58 AM
I have been working on 2 loads for one boolit. The boolit is the infamous 454424 and the powder of choice for the load in question is w296. My lite load works great and does not lead but once I ditch the unique and dump in w296 I get leading. This is no mild load as I'm reaching out and trying to touch the 1400-1500 fps with the 255gr boolit. I am using established load data from LineBaugh's site
www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm
he states that the boolits should be hardened to between 18-20 as that's what he uses. I'm wondering if the reasion harder boolits work is because a 454424 boolit has a thin base befor the lube groove. So a harder base resistes being pushed forward from the higher pressure meaning keeping that good seal needed to prevent leading.

Any of you have any tips on pushing these boolits over the normal 950 fps? Thanks guys

Guesser
06-05-2011, 07:51 AM
I use it in a RNMBH, tried pushing it hard and decided that the only way to do it was just what you are doing. Then I realized that I didn't like shooting it when I was topping it out like that. I was using WC820 surplus (H110). I dropped back and made them softer and use HS-6 or A#5 and can still ring the bell at 100 and the boolits drop at .455/263 gr. and work very well. Had a 454 to use as a magnum, liked my 45 as a 45. The bullet is finicky but can be made to work.

44man
06-05-2011, 09:36 AM
The boolit is not hard enough. Go to straight WW metal and water drop or oven harden. Try for at least 22 BHN.
That boolit does not have a thin base band but you might be skidding past the base since it is a PB.
If you could recover some boolits, you will see it.
It is strange that the thump from Unique works because a slow powder can usually use a little softer boolit. With Unique, 28 to 30 BHN shoots best for me with a Keith style.
I don't like a Keith and I don't like one large GG. Poor cylinder, bore alignment from the nose.
Don't fall into the saying that hard leads and soft doesn't, both can lead and both can not. It depends on what is happening to your boolit when the pressure hits it.
Slump and skid past the base that opens gas channels are the worst.
Did you know a soft boolit can lose all of the GG's and lube before it gets near the bore? Why size and lube at all?
When you recover a boolit, it must look exactly as it was cast except for rifling marks that do not exceed land and groove widths.

JTknives
06-05-2011, 11:57 AM
It just dawned on my one big difference between my light loads and heavy loads and that is the crimp. the light loads don't have a crimp and i seat till the case is over the first driving band but the heavies i do a heavy crimp and roll the case into the crimp groove till the edge is tucked down inside. i'm wondering if the crimp is removing material when the boolit is being pushed out of the case making the boolit smaller. this would mean a harder boolit will make the crimp groove stronger and resist being sized down from seating and firing. i think i will do a test and pull a round and measure it to see if pulling it makes the boolit smaller. hum pulling it did not size it down much. I have been running .454 dia boolits as that's the sizer i have. I honed my cylinder throat to .453 and my bore is .452 so i figured that .454 is a happy median for both. could i be wrong and i need to size to .452?

stubert
06-05-2011, 12:51 PM
I would be using a gas checked boolit at 1500 fps., with a hard lube.

MtGun44
06-05-2011, 04:47 PM
Neither hard metal or a GC is necessary. I load 22 or 21 H110 under various Keith
and LBT boolits with straight air cooled wwts at about 12 BHN or so, with zero leading,
real good accy. Harder is not required! This is 50 yds with Ruger BH short bbl (4 5/8")
that I reamed and polished the cylinder throats to .453, grrove diam is .452. I use .001"
larger diam with a good design, good lube (LBT soft blue or NRA 50-50) and get this
performance in .44 Mag, .357 Mag, .45 "mag" loads like this all the time in multiple
guns. This is not a fluke. Boolit is a Keith type design in .45 that came out to 300 gr
and was purchased in a Group Buy on this site a number of years ago. I would tend
to think that a sq bottomed lube groove version of 452424 should give similar results.
Not chrono'ed, I guess around 1250 range or so. Lower rt hit is probably due to the
jerk behind the trigger (me). The 285 gr version of this mold was also another GB
and performs just the same way, a bit faster velocity, a bit less recoil. Std Keith success.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3950

Just one I happened to have a picture of. Good design, good fit, good lube are all
that is necessary - not a GC or not hard metal. I have gotten this same result with
8 BHN (pretty soft) in .44 mag and .357 mag when testing to see if range scrap would
work or lead or lose accy, nothing bad happened. The supposed requirement for
22 BHN and linotype is just a fairy tale. Hard CAN work, no doubt, but is not a
requirement or a solution by itself. Like Bret says "Fit is king", design and lube are
close behind.

Bill

44man
06-05-2011, 05:18 PM
It just dawned on my one big difference between my light loads and heavy loads and that is the crimp. the light loads don't have a crimp and i seat till the case is over the first driving band but the heavies i do a heavy crimp and roll the case into the crimp groove till the edge is tucked down inside. i'm wondering if the crimp is removing material when the boolit is being pushed out of the case making the boolit smaller. this would mean a harder boolit will make the crimp groove stronger and resist being sized down from seating and firing. i think i will do a test and pull a round and measure it to see if pulling it makes the boolit smaller. hum pulling it did not size it down much. I have been running .454 dia boolits as that's the sizer i have. I honed my cylinder throat to .453 and my bore is .452 so i figured that .454 is a happy median for both. could i be wrong and i need to size to .452?
.452 to .453 would be better. There is no practical reason to go over throat size. You just have another size die. It does not hurt much to be larger as long as you are not wiping out the GG's. Sizing a large boolit smaller in a size die can do the same so what is the difference?
Crimp does not have to be super heavy, just roll to the bottom of the groove without digging into the lead or bulging brass below the crimp.
Crimp can size a boolit if lead is too soft and you can tell if a case still has some crimp after it is shot. But so can seating size down a soft boolit.
You would be better off playing with alloys to find what quits leading, does not get sized by seating or crimp does not size.
Your thinking is good but you never said if the boolit is too soft.
I am the biggest proponent here to use lead that is just hard and tough enough.

MtGun44
06-05-2011, 05:32 PM
Away from home now, looking at what pix I happened to have on this computer, and ran
across this one.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3951

Only problem is that this load falls apart at 50 yds, runs about 7" groups! Not sure
why that happens sometimes, but seems like it is more common with LBT designs
than Keiths.

In any case - it is clearly doable to get the hot H110/W296 loads to work in this
caliber. Typical recipe is throat diam or .001 bigger, good crimp for good consistent
ignition, mag primer doesn't seem necessary, may even be harmful, and good brass.
I find that new or reasonably new Starline helps my groups quite a lot. I may do some
neck annealing to see if this gets the accy back on old brass in .44 Mag.

Bill

JTknives
06-05-2011, 06:06 PM
well my boolits where just air cooled WW. i'm using BAC lube and sized in my saeco lubesizer. the boolits are 255gr ideal 454424's with the square lube groove. im using 25grs of w296 powder and a CCI350 primer.

MT Gianni
06-05-2011, 11:58 PM
I have seen at least 4 different varieties of 454424 with the grease grooves all over the place. Just another of Ideal/Lymans many cherries.

44man
06-06-2011, 08:19 AM
Away from home now, looking at what pix I happened to have on this computer, and ran
across this one.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3951

Only problem is that this load falls apart at 50 yds, runs about 7" groups! Not sure
why that happens sometimes, but seems like it is more common with LBT designs
than Keiths.

In any case - it is clearly doable to get the hot H110/W296 loads to work in this
caliber. Typical recipe is throat diam or .001 bigger, good crimp for good consistent
ignition, mag primer doesn't seem necessary, may even be harmful, and good brass.
I find that new or reasonably new Starline helps my groups quite a lot. I may do some
neck annealing to see if this gets the accy back on old brass in .44 Mag.

Bill
That is what I get with air cooled WW's at 50. But this is what I get with water dropped from my .45 Vaquero, shot from the side of my leg. Yes, 50 yards.

NHlever
06-06-2011, 09:53 AM
I haven't seen any .45 Colt loads that safely push the boolit you are using to the velocities you are talking about in a standard six shot cylinder. I think your loads are really on the hot side! I have seen loads that do that, of course, but it was using custom oversized cylinders in squared up cylinder openings, using tougher steels, etc., or in 5 shot revolvers. The loads Bill is using are at the top end of what I would really be comfortable with, and are good loads. Good accuracy at 25 yards, but poor accuracy at 50 yards points to issues with stabilization. My first guess there is that you have the notorious tight spot in your barrel where it goes through the cylinder frame. Perhaps you are getting a little skidding at first, and combined with a bore that opens up after the tight spot to what it should be together cause that lack of stability. If you could scrounge some boolits with a longer bearing surface they might shoot better. That has worked for me in Marlin barrels that were a bit like a snake swallowing a mouse. One old 30-30 I had wouuld shoot 170 grain jacketed bullets into very satisfying groups at 100 yards, and yet keyhole 110 grain bullets at 25 yards. At any rate, you have an interesting situation to work on, and if you treat it like fun it will be.

44man
06-06-2011, 01:14 PM
I haven't seen any .45 Colt loads that safely push the boolit you are using to the velocities you are talking about in a standard six shot cylinder. I think your loads are really on the hot side! I have seen loads that do that, of course, but it was using custom oversized cylinders in squared up cylinder openings, using tougher steels, etc., or in 5 shot revolvers. The loads Bill is using are at the top end of what I would really be comfortable with, and are good loads. Good accuracy at 25 yards, but poor accuracy at 50 yards points to issues with stabilization. My first guess there is that you have the notorious tight spot in your barrel where it goes through the cylinder frame. Perhaps you are getting a little skidding at first, and combined with a bore that opens up after the tight spot to what it should be together cause that lack of stability. If you could scrounge some boolits with a longer bearing surface they might shoot better. That has worked for me in Marlin barrels that were a bit like a snake swallowing a mouse. One old 30-30 I had wouuld shoot 170 grain jacketed bullets into very satisfying groups at 100 yards, and yet keyhole 110 grain bullets at 25 yards. At any rate, you have an interesting situation to work on, and if you treat it like fun it will be.
296 in a Ruger can go over 1400 FPS with a 260 gr boolit.
My load for a 335 gr LBT is 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150 primer, for 1160 FPS.
Driving a lighter boolit too fast can over spin it. I don't see where 1400 FPS is any advantage with a stability loss.

JTknives
06-06-2011, 03:11 PM
really im just looking for around 1300fps or so but i know i can get 1400fps. i clocked some 325gr buffalow bore rounds coming out of my 4 5/8th vaquero going 1280fps, WOW. its a stomping round but if you know how to handle it then thy are not bad. tight grip and a loose elbow lol. if not and you let the gun roll up in your hand with out absorbing the recoil in your elbow it will tear the skin open between your thumb and pointerfinger lol.

this guy had never shot a pistol before and wanted to try my revolver. i explained how to shoot it.
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/226262_10150174634769010_681689009_7129319_345367_ n.jpg

silly wabit got to do it like me
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/223181_10150174634604010_681689009_7129316_7723172 _n.jpg

MtGun44
06-06-2011, 04:41 PM
Tried identical loads, AC WWT and WD WWT, all else the same in .44 mag about 3
different attempts, not 3 different groups but sets of loads compared, maybe 10
sets of loads, 5 shots per group. Either the same accy or worse in all cases that I
have tried. I have given up on harder, doesn't work for me and adds an extra step.

I have purchased about 5 different Cast Perf LBT-style "hard cast" boxes of different boolits
in .44 cal - diff wts - at a real 22 BHN and tried them in Anaconda, Mtn Gun, 6.5" 629, and
SBH. All shot 6-12" patterns at 25 yds, until I ran out of most of them in 5 shot strings trying
to find anything that would even be called a group. Might have been one or two decent
ones, but I am far from home and can't check my database. Nothing that was slightly good
was repeatable, IIRC. Just never have found any benefit from hard cast in pistols,
and lots of evidence of worse performance in my guns with me shooting. Not saying
it can't work - just that softer WILL work and I have not found any significant encouragement
in my own testing for hard cast in pistols, and lots of discouragement.

My hat is off to you shooting groups that good, I can't do it with iron sights. Even
with a scope (one S&W 629 has a scope, all other .44s are stock irons) the best I
can do is about 1.5", and I think it is mostly me, I can see about that much wobble
in the scope. I can do about 2" on a good day at 50 with irons, but getting harder as I
get older.

Bill

JTknives
06-06-2011, 04:50 PM
That is what I get with air cooled WW's at 50. But this is what I get with water dropped from my .45 Vaquero, shot from the side of my leg. Yes, 50 yards.

WOW, good shooting and from a fixed sight vaquero. I have allways wondered what the vaquero would do but have not shot much besides shooting steel. can you give me your load data for that?

44man
06-07-2011, 08:50 AM
WOW, good shooting and from a fixed sight vaquero. I have allways wondered what the vaquero would do but have not shot much besides shooting steel. can you give me your load data for that?
That was the Lyman 452651, water dropped WW's, sized .452", Felix lube, 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer.
The 335 gr LBT WLNGC will do the same, same load.
For can shooting I use the Lee 255 gr with either 8 gr of 231 or 7 gr of Unique.

44man
06-07-2011, 09:22 AM
Tried identical loads, AC WWT and WD WWT, all else the same in .44 mag about 3
different attempts, not 3 different groups but sets of loads compared, maybe 10
sets of loads, 5 shots per group. Either the same accy or worse in all cases that I
have tried. I have given up on harder, doesn't work for me and adds an extra step.

I have purchased about 5 different Cast Perf LBT-style "hard cast" boxes of different boolits
in .44 cal - diff wts - at a real 22 BHN and tried them in Anaconda, Mtn Gun, 6.5" 629, and
SBH. All shot 6-12" patterns at 25 yds, until I ran out of most of them in 5 shot strings trying
to find anything that would even be called a group. Might have been one or two decent
ones, but I am far from home and can't check my database. Nothing that was slightly good
was repeatable, IIRC. Just never have found any benefit from hard cast in pistols,
and lots of evidence of worse performance in my guns with me shooting. Not saying
it can't work - just that softer WILL work and I have not found any significant encouragement
in my own testing for hard cast in pistols, and lots of discouragement.

My hat is off to you shooting groups that good, I can't do it with iron sights. Even
with a scope (one S&W 629 has a scope, all other .44s are stock irons) the best I
can do is about 1.5", and I think it is mostly me, I can see about that much wobble
in the scope. I can do about 2" on a good day at 50 with irons, but getting harder as I
get older.

Bill
I had to laugh at the cut hand shown by JT. :mrgreen: NEVER let a gun "roll."
The .44 is easy to find accuracy with. Even the RD 265 gr with 22 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer will hold 3/4" at 50 yards.
See the primer?
I have shown this before, shot with my SBH with a red dot at 50 and 100 yards for the can. I hit the rail so I aimed higher for the last shot.
Then the Vaquero again with the Lee 300 gr boolit at 50 yards.
All water dropped boolits.

44man
06-07-2011, 10:00 AM
I do not profess to being the best revolver shot and I am old and shake a lot.
What I do is because I buck all the written word, do not believe what I read and have learned to understand the revolver and what it needs.
So much is said and repeated here and everywhere else that is wrong but I grit my teeth and agree with some things because I seem to bring on anger very fast. :kidding: Been kicked off a site, called a liar.
Never shoot less then 50 yards with a large caliber, it is OK with a .38 or ACP but a .44, etc will tell you nothing up close. You just can't read shots at 25 yards. To shoot a .44 at 10 yards is so funny I drop my teeth.
I shoot revolvers to 500 meters (547 yards) and hit steel. My best was three shots in 2-1/2" at 500 yards.
These are average 50, 100 and 200 yard groups from my .475 BFR. Can was shot twice at 100. I reject anything over 1" at 50 yards. Most of my revolvers will do 1" or under at 100. The .44 will do 1-1/4".
Will I ever tell you to soften your boolit so it "obturates?" Maybe if I don't want to start an argument. HEE, HEE, I AM an old grouch!

thx997303
06-07-2011, 12:39 PM
really im just looking for around 1300fps or so but i know i can get 1400fps. i clocked some 325gr buffalow bore rounds coming out of my 4 5/8th vaquero going 1280fps, WOW. its a stomping round but if you know how to handle it then thy are not bad. tight grip and a loose elbow lol. if not and you let the gun roll up in your hand with out absorbing the recoil in your elbow it will tear the skin open between your thumb and pointerfinger lol.

this guy had never shot a pistol before and wanted to try my revolver. i explained how to shoot it.
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/226262_10150174634769010_681689009_7129319_345367_ n.jpg

silly wabit got to do it like me
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/223181_10150174634604010_681689009_7129316_7723172 _n.jpg

That guy bled on my Marlin, and my smith Mod 10.

Bass Ackward
06-07-2011, 12:41 PM
So much is said and repeated here and everywhere else that is wrong but I grit my teeth and agree with some things because I seem to bring on anger very fast. :kidding: Been kicked off a site, called a liar.
Will I ever tell you to soften your boolit so it "obturates?" Maybe if I don't want to start an argument. HEE, HEE, I AM an old grouch!



Solid copper obturates @ 45k. If you think that your lead bullets aren't, your dreamin. The problem is confusing obturation that occurs before barrel sizing with deformation in the bore during acceleration. And where the line is crossed on defining those terms.

Jim you have been posting "correct" advice for quite a few years. Got any pictures from disciples following your advice?

Who can mold and discard all but 20 bullets just before you need them? Who throws out 1/2 box of brass cause they do their own thing? Wears a handgun someplace other than their waist? Makes a handgun as heavy as a rifle? Who loads wide open using heavy for caliber slugs to plink cans or stuff? Man what are you drinkin? :grin:

It's like shaving with an axe. Yea, everyone admires your time and effort to sharpen it, but we have to cut wood with ours. And we find razor blades work just as well. (proper tool for the proper job)

Doesn't make anyone's advice wrong. Or yours correct. Unless it does .... then by all means do it.

44man
06-07-2011, 03:13 PM
Bass, please explain how a throat size boolit that is over bore size will expand to "obturate." Obturate means "to seal" and nothing more. once a boolit SEALS, why make it expand?
You are in the "SLUMP" region that I avoid at all costs.
Sure, Whitworth shoots my loads and so does Frank, John, Dave, Bill and Bioman. Many others E mail me and PM me and get super results.
When you see Whit hit little plastic bottles off hand at 100 yards with my loads, you might believe.
It is no joke, The revolver will SHOOT if loaded right but all the old stuff is just that and you have never shown that it works.
There is NO REASON TO EXPAND A BOOLIT UNLESS IT IS UNDERSIZE! But then accuracy is a dream.
I still wait for YOUR pictures! :veryconfu

Bass Ackward
06-08-2011, 03:03 PM
I still wait for YOUR pictures! :veryconfu


Yep. Pictures pending right after yours. Remember the challenge? For you to shoot a 4" group at 100 yards with that 625 in 45 ACP and open sights like I posted? I saw one 25 yard group with a flier you couldn't explain and back to the owner that thing went.

Your credibility is still hanging out there on that one. Maybe you can get the gun back? :grin:

I congratulate Bill too. Open sights and all.

MtGun44
06-08-2011, 03:19 PM
I have not tried Fed 150 primer with H110/W296 but I will when I get back home and
have some time. Probably in July. I think I have a few of the Cast Perf LBT commercial
boolits in a few diff wts laying around, but not many left. I will try them with this
combo, but they have been miserable for me with all other powders and primers that
I have tried.

As to the JTKnives - try dropping the CCI350 down to CCI300. I found better accy with
the lower power primers, esp with Unique and 2400 but usually with H110, too.

44man
06-08-2011, 04:11 PM
I have not tried Fed 150 primer with H110/W296 but I will when I get back home and
have some time. Probably in July. I think I have a few of the Cast Perf LBT commercial
boolits in a few diff wts laying around, but not many left. I will try them with this
combo, but they have been miserable for me with all other powders and primers that
I have tried.

As to the JTKnives - try dropping the CCI350 down to CCI300. I found better accy with
the lower power primers, esp with Unique and 2400 but usually with H110, too.
The CCI 300 and the Fed 150 both work the same. Other standard primers also and even the WW primers are better then full magnum but not as good as standard.