New boolit design for Ruger Old Army

[Onty]

First, my apology for creating a new thread about Ruger Old Army and boolits for it. At first, I was thinking just to continue on this excellent thread Ruger Old Army - Revisited (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34668). However, since I am certain that this discussion will result in several different designs, I would like to have them all on the first post so we do not have to scroll through whole thread to find each of them.

I am considering Ruger Old Army and looking for adequate mould. I checked a number of posts about ROA and loads for it, here and other websites. However, I am still uncertain what would be the best boolit for hog/wild boars for backup and cup de grace. According to thread in this post http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=72845 (see also video), Lee REAL looks like good one for those who would like to use it for hunting or as a backup handgun. Also, I would like to inform you about this thread Marshall Stanton started http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=2414 .

Now, since we have a chance to get high quality custom molds, I am considering starting group buy for one in 240-260 grains range. REAL looks like promising starting point, but I am thinking about boolit with larger meplat dia than REAL. Since I would like to use it with maximum load, I have a feeling that boolit should have bands with cylindrical portion larger than REAL when pressed in chamber, for better seal and friction to prevent it from moving forward. Yes, I am aware that this type of boolit will require to be loaded on adequate press, especially if WW is used. However, since we are talking about hunting, not plinking, I think that this is a small price to pay for more reliable load.

Please, take a look and let me know what do you think, I am open for any option. Since my experience in C&B is nil, I would highly appreciate comments and opinions from our experienced members.

Thanks, Onty.


Proposal No. 1:

Dia (as cast): .458˝
OAL: .655˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band (ea.): .026˝
Weight (using WW): 260 grains

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g337/Onty50/ROA-REAL-260.jpg

Proposal No. 2:

Dia (as cast): .458˝
OAL: .634˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band, front: .080˝
Driving band, rest (ea.): .025˝
Weight (using WW): 250 grains


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g337/Onty50/ROA-ProposalNo2.jpg


Proposal No. 3: ROA-260-DG (dual groove)

Dia (as cast): .457˝
OAL: .654˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band, front: .080˝
Driving bands, rest (ea.): .070 2-nd, .075 3rd
Weight (using WW): 260 grains

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g337/Onty50/ROA-260-DG.jpg

[Nobade]

I know it's not as heavy, but it is designed for the ROA and already exists:
http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982

I think you'll find a 260gr. bullet uses up a lot of powder space.

[Good Cheer]

My ideal is increasing boolit mass while sacrificing as little powder space as possible: A short stubby wadcutter with minimal lube grooves and a flat little button on the nose for loading lever alignment would be ideal. Front band would need to be oversized.
An older Lyman wadcutter design might be close. Maybe a 452389 with the front lube groove ground away in the mold and the front band extended towards the curved nose and made bigger diameter?
Reckon the base might still be too small in diameter also for the ROA?

[Onty]

I will try within next couple days to make few more designs. In the mean time, here is an interesting post about using 45-255-SWC in ROA http://single-actions.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=525&sid=35ce29fd9b4368579596c3884cae008a&start=10 :


Okay, I'll give you a synopsis on "HOW I DID IT" and get some pictures tonight and post details and pictures tomorrow on the project.

This is going to be a long post because I want to get you in the mind set of my thinking because I believe it will help you understand not only how I wound up where I did, but why it works like it does. The details are important to the outcome.

Before I bought this weapon I was looking for one like it to hunt deer with close range (25 to 50 yds) in thick cover around Percy Priest Lake here in central TN (mine and Derek's backyard). I already decided I would use a 255 SWC TNV bullet. I wanted to simulate and improve upon the 45 Colt performance in a ROA! My first thought (I'll admit it) was smokeless powder :o , but I was thinking Trail Boss. I kept hearing you can't load enough to be dangerous. Mainly because of it's bulk. The cylinder chambers were 454 so I asked Jesse to size me some 255 SWC at that diameter with his standard bullet allow and lube. Jessie's hard cast bullets usually test at 20 to 22 BHN.

I learned very quick the lever on the ROA was not up to seating this hard cast bullet in the chamber so I was going to need a press. I bought a BP revolver loading stand on line and when it came I found out it wasn't up to the task either! Didn't accommodate the height of the bullet or the amount of torque needed to seat it. I remembered seeing a 1/2 ton arbor press at Harbor Freight for $29.00, so I hot footed it over there after work the next day. By now I'm sure your thinking I'm freaking crazy, but the ends justify the means. ;)

I took the BP press shaft and put it in the mast of the arbor press with a set screw. I then took the post for the cylinder and threaded it to the rotating base of the arbor press. I decided to seat the bullets .030 under the face of the cylinder so I welded a nut to the top of the mast of the arbor press and put a bolt with a lock nut in it to use as a stop guide so each bullet was seated exactly the same. If you can't picture this you'll understand when I post the pictures.

So, I measured the capacity of the chamber, the diameter and the bullet profile and checked the load data for that powder and bullet in a 45 Colt cartridge. I discovered there was room to spare. I started with the minimal load and worked up in half grain increments. What I learned from this was the adage "you can't load enough to be dangerous" was true, but for a different reason. Once I got up to about 851 fps the next half grain increase when down to 832, and the next to 815. Why? Because I was pushing the bullet out of the chamber and down the barrel while the powder was still trying to finish burning, no crimp! I also discovered something about percussion caps. The hottest currently available are the New Remington #11, then the CCI Magnum, then the regular CCI, RWS ans so on. The New Remington was the only one that would provide consistent ignition of the Trail Boss powder.

This didn't get me where I wanted to go so I knew I'd need a faster burning but safer powder so I went to 777. No way was I going to try Bullseye, #2 etc. I decided to weigh the volume amounts of 35, 37, and 40 grs of 777. The actual weight of my lot of powder was 35 = 28, 37 = 29.6, and 40 = 32.0. I would weight out each cylinder for the greatest consistency and accuracy. I started with the 28.0 by weight and carefully seated the bullet. You have to be especially careful to seat the bullet perfectly so as not to shave lead off the sides and ruin the bullet. The first loading proved to be exactly what I was looking for so I stopped right there! :lol:

I had talked to several people about this project and the reaction was always the same, A look like "man what planet are you from" or the typical first question, "How you going to reload that out in the field?"

Well I finally took the whole thing out to Jessie's place so he could see what I was doing. Once I unloaded everything from the truck and told him what I was up to he kinda chuckled and said "Oh Hell :roll:" I proceeded to load up a cylinder and let him shoot it at 50yrds. His first group was about 6 inches. He admitted there was more recoil than he was expecting with a BP revolver and it was the first time he'd shot this gun with these custom grips I'd made, so I loaded up another cylinder without cleaning. His next group, one handed no support, was 2 "!! :o His next comment was " How you goin to reload this in the field". I responded with why would I? I have six shots where most people only of one or maybe 3 or 4 quick loads for their rifle. He looked at me with revelation and said "I never thought of it that way, but your right".

So there it is. The 454 dia. 255 swc hard cast bullet provides enough resistance and weight to get the best performance from the 777 powder with the "NEW" Remington caps out of a Ruger ROA with a 1/16 twist to get optimum velocity and accuracy from a BP revolver for medium size game.

Now all I gotta do is shoot a deer with it :mrgreen:

Papa

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I like the idea of a dedicated ROA WC type with an alignment nose. Seated just flush with the chamber mouth & room to still smear a dobber of BP lube. 240 grains ought to be heavy enough for most any vege type critter up close. Cast of WW should penetrate right nicely.
Mike in Peru

[Onty]

Proposal No. 2:

Dia (as cast): .458˝
OAL: .634˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band, front: .080˝
Driving band, rest (ea.): .025˝
Weight (using WW): 250 grains


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g337/Onty50/ROA-ProposalNo2.jpg

[Onty]

I know it's not as heavy, but it is designed for the ROA and already exists:
http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982

I think you'll find a 260gr. bullet uses up a lot of powder space.

True. However, one good option is to make chambers deeper. Clements offers this service, and I believe other good smiths could do the same.


Deepen chambers in Old Army .45 cal. cyl. to use 5-10 gr. more powder and give approx. 100 fps more velocity... (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/miscconversionoptions.html)

Here is proposal No. 3: ROA-260-DG (dual groove)

Dia (as cast): .457˝
OAL: .654˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band, front: .080˝
Driving bands, rest: .070 2nd, .075 3rd
Weight (using WW): 260 grains

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g337/Onty50/ROA-260-DG.jpg

As you could see, this one has 2 grease grooves. However, it's designed to accept two O-rings as they are used for static sealing. I am thinking of O-ring made from more elastic materials for 7/16 bore. The idea was to get more friction between boolit and chamber to prevent boolit from moving forward, and in the same time excellent sealing to prevent crossfire and moisture from reaching powder. This O-rings are cheap, about 2 cents each from McMaster-Carr. (http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-o-rings/=cnyb6b) I would think that from some other sources, if order is few thousands, they could be even cheaper. Also, experiment could show that one seal is enough. In that case, front groove could have lube, aft one could have O-ring.

I had this idea from before, however, after getting this reply http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34668&page=3 , post #56 (thanks Nobade), I decided to give it a try.

[uscra112]

Using TB in an Old Army, it's luck and only luck that kept the nipples in the cylinder. TB burns almost as fast as Bullseye, and can generate some pretty high pressures in that application! Unwise the say the least.