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hp35
06-01-2011, 09:20 AM
Hi All,

I've been a long time lurker and found some great information about my new addiction at this great forum.

Now I have only one small problem that I can't get solved.

I'm shooting my M81 Vetterli rifle that shoots very accurate with commercial .44/240gr boolits and 50/50 beeswax/hard frying fat. No leading all day long. I've sized them to .427.

Now I've started to cast my own with the Lee .44 310gr mold. The first two shots are OK, after that the accuracy degrades terrible. Same sizing and boolitlube as the commercial boolits.
I've seen some leading at the end/crown of the barrel for only 1-2 inches.

What am I doing wrong or what can be approved?

Kind regards,
Hp35

prs
06-01-2011, 10:10 AM
I am surprised you got leading with real gunpowder, but maybe your alloy is too hard, or your boolit bases are imperfect, or with that boolit, .427 is too small. Then again given the symptom is at the muzzle end only, the new mould may be a design that is lube starved. You can see if another lube may hold better, or seek a more "lubricious" boolit design. A PRS boolit in that weight would be the bee's knees, but the only one I am aware of about 200gr for 44/40. I have previously considered having a PRS made for the Vetts as my son in law shoots several of them and wanted to use real BP, but he seems to be happy with modern propellant and j-words at t his point. Some folks just don't get it :-)

prs

jhrosier
06-01-2011, 12:29 PM
I've shot quite a few of the Lee 310gr boolits through my Vet, over Hogdon's 777.
I'm lubing them with Lars Carnauba Red and have not had any leading.

Jack

hp35
06-01-2011, 04:36 PM
Thanks for the replies!

I forgot to mention that I shoot blackpowder with my Vett. And I'm from Europe. So what is that "Lars Carnauba Red"? Is it a commercial lube?

I use 5 parts pure lead on 1 part pure Linotype (from a book printing machine). I'm not sure maybe around 10-12 BHN? It should be OK for the Vett. It should handle soft and hard bullets well.

Anymore suggestions I can look into?

Thanks,
HP35

jhrosier
06-01-2011, 05:47 PM
Best lube ever!

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html

Jack

JeffinNZ
06-01-2011, 06:12 PM
Try a heavy card or LDPE wad under the bullet base. LDPE (low density polyethylene) is recycling mark 4. Coffee can/baby formula lids.

WARD O
06-01-2011, 06:49 PM
Leading near the muzzle is a good indication that you are short on lube. From what I know about your Lee mould, it is not designed to carry the amount of lube that it should for black powder use. With black powder the lube not only lubricates the bullet but it also acts to soften the black powder residue so succeeding shots pass through the bore without deformation or leading. Perhaps the over powder wad will help but I think you may have to eventually find a different mould.

Another option: Use two over powder cards and sandwich in between them a "cookie" of lube at least 1/8" thick and then seat your bullet on top. Perhaps this will help the lube starved bullet. This is the practice with paper patched bullets that are without lube grooves.

Good Luck
Ward

JeffinNZ
06-01-2011, 10:37 PM
I have never bought into the idea that lube can keep BP fouling 'soft'. When you consider how little lube a bullet holds and the entire surface area of the inside of a barrel it's not hard to see that the lube is insufficient in quantity to do what is suggested. I believe the lube, in addition to creating a gas checking seal, leaves a microscopic film on the bore that makes it harder for BP fouling to stick to. By using an overpowder wad you will help to maximise the lube and prevent it being blown/pumped away prior to the bullet exiting.

hp35
06-02-2011, 02:51 AM
Hi all,

i know about grease cookies. That was going to be my next step to try. Can somebody recommend me a good 240gr of 300gr mould with deep lube grooves?

Regards,
HP35

firefly1957
06-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Try shooting again with same load but wipe barrel with damp patch between shots that will let you know if it is the fowling from the black powder.

hp35
06-04-2011, 01:58 AM
Hi all,

I got back from the range and did another testing session with the Lee 320gr boolits in my M81. This time I used a mix with about 20/75/5 fryingfat/beeswax/Lee Alox. The lube was clearly harder then my previous used lube. This time I didn't got leading, but accuracy was terrible.
I also made some Lee 240gr RN boolits and these performed very well. A little leading again with my regular softer (50/50) lube but very good results!

So does anyone has more options/tips/advise?

HP35

firefly1957
06-05-2011, 03:11 PM
hp35 Are you putting the bullet base directly on the black powder?

iT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE NOT NEW TO LOADING BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE. ( HIT WRONG KEY)

When loading Black powder it must always be a full charge and best accuracy will be obtained if the powder is **SLIGHTLY** compressed. Try putting a cardboard wad on the powder then seating it with about 40 lbs. force then seating bullet on wad. This also keeps lube out of powder.

hp35
06-05-2011, 03:31 PM
FF1957,

I'm not new to BP reloading at all. When I've loaded the cartridge with BP, then I add a thin paper wad on the BP, on that I add some dry couscous for filler and add another paper wad and at last the boolit. I use some compression, so the BP is well compressed in the cartridge. This is my regular load with commercial boolits that shoot very well/accurate with my M81.

I've also bought a Lyman 429667 - 44 FN 240grs mould, that should arrive this week. Anything to tell about this Lyman mould? Good/bad? (at least it has deep lube grooves compared to the Lee 240 mould :D )

Thanks,
HP35

nwellons
06-05-2011, 08:54 PM
I've Been shooting my similar .42 Berdan for about 4 months with black powder. That's it in my avatar photo.

My .430 310g Lee mold has weak lube grooves so I always use a grease cookie. Eliminates the need for a filler. I use powder, wax paper or sometimes cardboard followed by wax paper wad, then grease cookie, then another wax paper wad followed by the boolit.

No leading, good accuracy, and just feels like the right amount of powder. Also use the same formula when I shoot my .43 Egyptian.

cajun shooter
06-06-2011, 10:20 AM
HP35, The lube that JPRosier sent you to is not correct for BP. The Lee Alox is also wrong and will not only cause fouling but bad accuracy. White Label lube made a very good BP lube at one time but stopped production over 3-4 years ago. You need to clean your rifle and start fresh with the proper lube. If you are using Swiss or Schutzen then that is a good start. I prefer to use a bullet that carries enough lube without a cookie.You should however try a few things that most all LRBP shooters here do. Anneal your cases. None of the Lee design bullets will be useful for BP shooting as all of them have too small or not enough lube grooves. We have a mould maker on this forum that is in Europe. You should go to the vendor section and look up MiHec and I bet he will help you. Try using sheep tallow and beeswax with jojoba oil if you can get it. Or go to our sticky section and find the lube receipes. There will be more than enough to put you correct.

hp35
06-06-2011, 03:44 PM
Hi Cajun Shooter,

Thanks for sending me in the right direction. Sheep tallow and beeswax is something I've heard before locally from other BP brothers.

I'll see if I can contact MiHec.

Thanks,
HP35

hp35
06-10-2011, 05:43 AM
I've contacted Mihec but still got no reply.
Yesterday I've been trying the Lee 240 RN boolits and despite the thin lube grooves, I didn't got any leading and above all, I got good accuracy!
I talked to another Vetterli shooter and he has the same problem with the Lee 310gr bullets.

For the timebeeing I'll stick with the 240 RN and experiment with the 310 later.

Thanks
HP35

Andy_P
06-10-2011, 06:03 AM
The Lee 310 gr has been a staple for Vetterli shooters for several years, but for smokeless powder. If sized correctly and with gas check in place, there is sufficient lube capacity, even with a single coat of Alox to avoid leading and to shoot well.

When you changed the lube combo, the leading went away, but accuracy was poor. You can't change your load, so this seems to be a case where that bullet won't shoot well in your gun with black powder.

jhrosier
06-10-2011, 09:08 AM
....So does anyone has more options/tips/advise?

HP35

My Vetterli likes the Lee 310 gr boolit, cast soft, gas checked and lubed with Lars Carnauba Red. I load it over a 42mm long case full of T7 with about 1/16" compression.
No leading or other issues and the velocity is close to the original loadings.
Jack

44man
06-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Use Lar's BP lube or make your own. Smokeless lube is not right for BP. Glenn makes a super good BP lube.