Cast Quality - What to expect in Trade?

[Land Owner]

I traded away, by US Post Office snail mail, 112 Speer 270 cal. x 150 grain jacketed Grand Slam bullets for 430 quantity x .452" x 255 grain hard cast lead SWC's that arrived today. The home made SWC's have “been around the block” and their quality is poor. Even I, a relatively new caster with less than 2,000 boolits cast, can see there are issues of eccentricity in each boolit, no crimp groove at all on one side on some (one side only), a crimp line (not a groove) on only one side on most, and “veins” in 38 bullets from inconsistent pouring or a cold mould.

If they were my castings, I would not have sent them to anyone in trade. They are rejects. I know I provided a good deal because 100 of my 112 jacketed Grand Slams were in their original containers, which were never opened and the remaining 12 had never been seated in a case.

Only 65 of 430 SWC's are properly formed with a full and complete crimp groove, both lube grooves formed and lubed, and each boolit concentric from the lube-sizer. Almost 370 of these SWC's suffer from no Quality Control.

I contacted the Trader and he says "They look OK to me. Send them back. I'll trade them to someone else." Now I will be out $10.80 in total in postage, but when I get my jacketed bullets back, I will send his boolits back.

Caveat emptor...Let the Buyer Beware.

[waksupi]

Was this a deal on this board? If so, please PM myself, or another staff member. You should receive back both your bullets, and shipping, if the person cares to remain on this board. That ain't how things work here. If he is on this board, you may wish to bring this topic to his direct attention, to be taken care of. It won't be such a mystery to him when he is removed then, if he does not do so.

Quote"
I contacted the Trader and he says "They look OK to me. Send them back. I'll trade them to someone else."
Unquote

By the way, if the guy has been informed these are trash, and he plans on sticking someone else with them, I will be more than happy to put a boot in his ass to get him out of here.

[fredj338]

In life, it's always buyer beware. I have learned there are few "deals" to be had & you often do get what you pay for. What's the other adage, you want it done right, do it yourself.

[Land Owner]

Was this a deal on this board? ... If he is on this board...

Unfortunately, no and no. It is on another board and the following is also true:


...the guy has been informed these are trash, and he plans on sticking someone else with them...

Until I get my bullets back, I am undecided about how to proceed. Yes, he should reimburse my shipping. I am not going to be picky about that. He isn't being a putz about shipping them back now that he has been informed. That is positive.

The other board is not about casting lead and the "lead boolit purist" responsibility there does not exist, making this board, to my knowledge, unique in that.

I feel I should expose his identity on the other board and warn people. He has made a fair number of purchases and trades with other respected members there who each provided positive feedback. I thought it was a slam dunk with this guy. There were no previous negative comments. So I have that avenue available. Wording the reply is the tricky part. Not attacking the person but describing the situation. If there isn't anything nice to say, then why say anything at all continues to run through my mind too.

The guy could really be that uninformed about cast boolits and I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. Why would anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence and even some "casual" reading about cast boolits consider those poor quality examples to be reasonable fodder for sale or trade? It is beyond my comprehension.

[gon2shoot]

A picture is worth a 1000 words. I'd post one on the forum.

[Brasso]

I like "gon2shoot's idea the best.

Sam

[HATCH]

the boolits he traded may be acceptable to some people and not really "BAD" boolits.

I have sent some boolits to my brother Ray.
I inspected each one by hand to make sure they were perfect or close to it.
I did that because it was my work that was going out there.

I have received several different boolits from members on here.
They were all acceptable boolits. Perfect fillout with no voids.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

food for thought.

Before I was a caster... I was a reloader and shooter.
I still love to shoot, even just going out and plinking at cans with friends
and not worrying about accuracy.

Now that I am a caster, I take pride in casting as perfect a boolit as possible.

With that said, when I cast from a new mold and get a bowl full of wrinkly boolits
or just a batch a ugly boolits from a troubled mold, I do have a hard time remelting
them...I think to myself, most of them are shootable, back in the day (before I was a caster)
I would have loved to get a deal on a large quantity of ugly plinking boolits.

But as with all trades/deals, Good communication and Honesty are Key.
this trader obviously wasn't honest enough...a picture would have helped you out no doubt.
once you get your jacketed bullets back. I would be brutally honest in a feedback post
and post pictures. Maybe this trader will learn his lessen. You can try to get your postage refunded, but I highly expect any outcome on that front.

BTW, I would expect a better deal than 1 to 4 if you were trading top quality jacketed bullets for "seconds"...more like 1 to 10 !
Jon

[Moonie]

I have done a couple of boolit swaps on here and I have always been more stringent on the ones I send out then the ones I shoot. It is a matter of pride. They may not have all been perfect but they were as close as I could get to it.

[selmerfan]

+1 on what Moonie said - and I'll add one more thing. I did a swap with justingroche here and I sent him the best boolits I could muster with that mold. I'd always had a slight finning issue on the bases and tried to trim up the ones I sent him, but he still noticed. We were talking about trading molds and he was honest and forthright about what he noticed with the cast boolits I sent him (the finning) and didn't want to trade molds if my mold had an issue, such as a warped sprue plate or warped blocks. It had never occurred to me to check for warping, so I took the plate off, and lo and behold the warping of the sprue plate was obvious. It's an RCBS mold so I called them and told them about it and I had a new sprue plate, free of charge, within a week. He wasn't sure how his constructive criticism and observations would be received, but they were done very respectfully and honestly, which is always appreciated. Never be afraid to respectfully make observations about another person't work - one man's "perfect" boolit may be another man's reject, it all depends on experience and expectations and we can learn from each other in this regard.

[oscarflytyer]

I shoot some of my own personal rejects, just because they are close, and I am too lazy to recast them. Normally they shoot up to par.

But I would never trade anything that wasn't as perfect as I could get it... Exception is if I faithfully describe the flaw(s) and someone is willing to accept them.

[Land Owner]

A picture is worth a 1000 words. I'd post one on the forum.

Tonight. I will take photos and post them tonight.


BTW, I would expect a better deal than 1 to 4 if you were trading top quality jacketed bullets for "seconds"...more like 1 to 10 !

Perfectly understood - "seconds" were not part of the trade description - just boolit diameter, number available, and weight per unit. I expected "factory 1st's" and got 2nd's.

I don't "know" the guy, but he has been on the other board with me for a while (early 2007). You sorta "know a guy", or think you do, over that period. AND he has "credentials" from 29 other Members, respected Members in my opinion, each making favorable comments about their transactions with the guy.

This one just went South. Crucify him because of faulty communications, particularly the inexperience of not asking questions I didn't know to ask? Probably would be "small" of me to do that.

Before placing the JB's up for sale, I considered my options. Keep those same JB's on that same shelf for another 8 years? I don't think so and I am NOT going to shoot those bullets ever again in my rifle.

OR

Sell them at reduced retail, which is what I chose - probably at "break even" due to 8-years of price increase(s). When confronted with a "trade" I checked today's retail on a "similar" batch of factory cast boolits (1st's), compared unit pricing to my JB's, and my "Gut Check" said "Let 'em Go!"

Then the bottom fell out of the deal upon receipt of the 2nd's. Live and Learn (to ask more experienced questions).


He wasn't sure how his constructive criticism and observations would be received, but they were done very respectfully and honestly, which is always appreciated. Never be afraid to respectfully make observations about another person's work - one man's "perfect" boolit may be another man's reject, it all depends on experience and expectations and we can learn from each other in this regard.

Exactly. He never said he made them, just had them to trade.

My expectation wasn't met and I didn't exactly stipulate what that expectation was, only that I was offering Premium JB's, 100 of which were in their original boxes and upopened (that should have been his clue).

I informed the guy of the flaws in the boolits. He said "Send 'em back." I didn't attack him, but my perception of the "whole deal" was sour when I wrote.

I shoot "wrinkled" boolits. My own feeble first attempts. As items for trade or sale? Not going to come from me that way...unless want them that way and ask.

[justingrosche]

When I cast, I rough sort on a flat cookie sheet. This allows me to to get a good look at all sides of the Boolit, when I roll the pan back and forth. I cull the obvious ones and catch not so's when I size. These ones that make it through the lube process but are still cull's IMO, go in a box for a local friend of mine that is tickled pink to get them. They still shoot, they're just not up to my standards, for trade stock or shooting in my guns. As it has been echoed in previous post's.... It's a matter of pride.
Justin

[MikeS]

Giving the person the benefit of the doubt, it's possible that he's never seen properly made home cast boolits, and so didn't think they could be any better. If he sends you something to cover the cost of postage, and is in general not trying to be a jerk about the whole deal, you might want to include 4 or 5 of your cast boolits, along with a note telling him that this is what a cast boolit should look like, and if he is the caster of those boolits, perhaps invite him here to learn how to make a better boolit.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

If a person does not have integrity, but enough skill to get on a forum, trade bullets, screw someome, and stick it to the other person to reverse the deal, and then boast about screwing the next victim to continue the scam, he deserves to be banned pronto.

This is not a usual transaction between two adults. He was dumping junk.

BvT

[MtGun44]

Hard to tell what someone thinks is quality. Could be a jerk or just uninformed.

Run in to a lot more idiots than real for sure SOBs in my life.

Bill

[Land Owner]

Side views
A. OK - 65 boolits (8 shown x 2-rows of four), seems to have all grooves, lube, concentricity, no wrinkles
B. Wrinkled - 38 boolits (6 shown) are wrinkled
C. No Groove - 327 boolits (7 shown), missing crimp groove, or thin line = no groove, and eccentric at groove shear-off.

General Notes:
1. Solid SWC mould shape &/ profile
2. All have adequate fill out of mould(s).
3. Boolits are "older" and tacky across all surfaces.
4. Many superficial dings and nicks from USPO handling.

[RobS]

Wow..................not even close. If the other person does come through and refunds your shipping and gives back your bullets then I guess it's up to you whether you post these pics on the other forum. If he decides to not comply then I would post these pics, maybe even some closer shots, of the disaster along with some of your homegrown so others can compare. No sense in someone else being hosed over.

[Ugluk]

If those had been cast by me they'd gone back in the pot. Primers and powder are just to expensive. Even those you call good seems to have impurities unless my eyes decieve me.

[gray wolf]

I believe in giving everyone the benefit of doubt--BUT
Those bullets are turds, anyone with a hint of self respect would never hand those out.
Sorry the bullets suck

[GaryN]

I wonder why anyone would spend the time lubing and sizing those. Those go back in the pot.

[giz189]

Guess if worst comes to worst, you could do a re-melt. Sure is a lot of extra work tho.

[btroj]

Bullets? I see round ingots.

[Ugluk]

Looks aside, have you weighed any? Just curious..

[justingrosche]

Just curious, I know that you said that you traded for .452 diameter. Whats the actual size? To displace that much metal around the crimp it must be swagged down considerably. I wouldn't be all that suprised If some got carried away Lee menting, which now makes the mold casts over sized. Then sized to 452, smears away the crimp groove. I'd bet the ones that have the crimp groove intact are under size. Just a thought.
At any rate, they are pretty rough looking.

[Bullwolf]

I have rejected bullets that looked a LOT better than those.

I agree with the others here, I would have re-melted thse obvious rejects. I also would have been far too embarrassed to have ever sent such low quality Boolits to anyone else.

A long time ago, my cousin kept a few really ugly wrinkled Boolits (cast from a cold mold) to shoot as plinking ammo in his Berreta 92FS. I would have melted them down and just recast them, and I strongly suggested that he do just that. Unfortunately he can be somewhat lazy and stubborn, and he is sometimes a bit thrifty about re-using stuff. A few of the Boolits actually broke off on the feed ramp. Lesson learned for him.

I can be really anal about re-smelting bullets that have minor imperfections, but it's no big deal, they just get recast again later. I tend to cast Boolits in large batches. I often will cast far more than I need at a time, that way I have quite a few extras on hand. (you always seem to need a few more than you think) It makes it easy for me to cull any Boolits that I deem substandard, without feeling too bad about doing so.

That's the beauty of casting Boolits, the melting pot does double duty as a mistake eraser.

I definitely would be sure to sort through my castings for the best of my best, if I was planning on shipping, or trading Boolits to someone else!


- Bullwolf

[Land Owner]

Looks aside, have you weighed any? Just curious..

Rough average weight was 253+change grains with lube, or the "appearance" of lube actually, from a random set of 10 boolits.

The "value" of the lead in those 430 boolits is ZERO to me for recasting as I already have over 750 pounds of lead, 150 pounds of scrounged WW's, and 300 pounds of 50/50 Pb-WW ingots already cast.

[prs]

Yep. Scrap lead of unknown composition.

prs

[Ugluk]

Rough average weight was 253+change grains with lube, or the "appearance" of lube actually, from a random set of 10 boolits.

The "value" of the lead in those 430 boolits is ZERO to me for recasting as I already have over 750 pounds of lead, 150 pounds of scrounged WW's, and 300 pounds of 50/50 Pb-WW ingots already cast.

What I pondered over was how much weight difference there was in the batch. If weight differences corresponds to the appearance.

Someone at some point must have considered them good to go. Perhaps they're match quality in weight consistency.

[Land Owner]

Someone at some point must have considered them good to go. Perhaps they're match quality in weight consistency.

Now that I have seen and rejected them, they appear to be "what comes around goes around" and I am not holding the bag. I don't like the guy wanting to pawn them off in trade or sale on the next guy, but then the next guy might find them to his liking. No telling. If there was a "standard" to which the casting world subscribed, I would definitely be warning others to watch out for this batch. I am no "expert" as I have been casting a very short time, but even I can tell a piece of cast junk when it comes calling. Next time, I will ask for 1st quality boolits. No assurance in that either if the sender isn't also a caster. Caveat emptor.

[randyrat]

Richard, are you sure he didn't send you some little round ingots for a sling shot. He he he he sorry I had to laugh. Was good chatting on the phone with you tonight.

Now i see what you are talking about, when you mentioned those boolits.
Like I said; That kind of work gives cast projectiles a bad name. Poor fellow that gets them.

[geargnasher]

Hard to tell what someone thinks is quality. Could be a jerk or just uninformed.

Run in to a lot more idiots than real for sure SOBs in my life.

Bill

Amen. I've stuck my boot in my face more than once because my initial perception was the latter, when in fact it was a mis-understanding or lack of knowledge on my part or theirs.

I agree with GW, those boolits are turds. True lead abuse. Some people think just because they're for a .45 Colt that they don't need to be made with love and pride.

Gear

[Ohio Rusty]

You are right ... those are some nasty boolits. I wouldn't even keep those bullets to use as shooting rejects. I do shoot my own rejects, but those deserve to go back into the melt.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[Fishman]

Obviously those are bad. If his feedback is great on a board he's been on for four years I'd tend to believe ignorance rather than deceit. Perhaps a pm to him with a link to this thread will enlighten him. You've presented the facts fairly as I see it and the responses have been straight forward. If he choses to listen you'll know he is trying. If he subsequently posts them on the other board with no explanation then you'll know he is a thief and can respond accordingly. He may be new to casting and think those are ok. My casting in the past has ranged from decent to aweful and seeing some of the results on here graphically drives home the point that I have far to go.