Leading with .357

[mongo]

I have been casting Lee 158grain .358 tumble lube swc using 45/45/10, Alloy is straight wheel weights. I have shot a bunch in my Ruger new vaquero using 4.0 grains WW231 with great results, No leading at all. I loaded a bunch up in .357 mag. using 14.0gr 2400. The shot good but left a ton of lead in the barrel. Still being new to casting, is there something I am doing wrong? Not enough lube or round to hot or is this the nature of reloading cast ww to magnum velocities. Thanks, Tom

[462]

Mongo,
My .357 Blackhawk will shoot that load without leading. However, I use a conventional lube groove boolit, an alloy of either 50/50 clip-on/stick-on wheel weights or no harder than a 2:1 combination, and a medium-hard stick lube. I've loaded the same alloys to higher velocities with the same results.

[Jailer]

I've only had one specific scenario where tumble lube worked for me. Even light 38 loads I get leading. I'm sticking with conventional lube from now on on all my boolits.

[Bass Ackward]

Yes you ARE doing something wrong on a systemic basis. And if people did this, then 90% of the posting on this board would never happen.

NEVER pick a powder charge. This is a recipe for disaster. And once you fail, where do you go? Your lost.

If you are frugal, just load three slightly below the starting charge listed and work up in increments checking between loads. If you are too low in pressure, the gun will lead and then it will clean up when you first get high enough to seal, then it will be fine right up until some level where it will lead again.

This is your working window for THAT lead / lube / bullet / powder / gun combination. Then you can pick any charge inside of there that your heart pleases. Change any of those and you change the window and start the process over again.

Slower powders and worn guns and gas checks widen windows. 4 gr 231 is about 9 gr of 2400 pressure wise according to the computer. Big jump form 9 to 14 huh?

Your accuracy is either found with that powder, or not and you move on or change variables. But change a variable and you "should" begin the process again until "you" get a feel for "that" gun and gain enough experience to guess / cheat.

[garym1a2]

I use a Lee 158 swc with gas checks for this load. My Rossi 1892 shoots very clean with it. The revolver also is very easy to clean and no lead. I do not use the tumble lube bullet, I use conventional and pan lube.
Its a great preformer in a 20 inch Rifle. I would not subject myself with the recoil in a pistol unless hunting.

[MtGun44]

TL is a pretty marginal lube system. With your low power loads, it could cope. With the hot load,
it could not. Switch to a conventional lube design of known good performance like Lee
358 158 RF, Lyman 358429, Lyman 358477, RCBS 38 150 SWC (earlier same boolit was 38 150 K)
and size to throat diam or +.001" with a known good lube like NRA 50-50 (Javelina is
one maker, there are many) and you will be OK.

Fit to throats is critical, as is adequate lube for high velocity & pressure loads.

Bill

[357shooter]

So something failed. The 231 load is evidently below that "failure" threshold for your gun/bullet-size/lube combination. The other load exceed it.

Where is the leading? Near the forcing cone, the end of the barrel, or all over the place? Are you sizing the bullets, if so, what size? That would be helpful to know, however without that info:

I think there are 2 basic approaches: One is to start measuring (with a 4 decimal micrometer, not calipers) the bullet diameter, throat sizes and groove size. From there you can figure out if the throats are undersized, bullet is undersized. Then work to achieve a better fit.

Two is to assume the bullet is just to small for that load, in your gun. That can partially be addressed by watching mould temp when casting. Preheating the mould, and keeping it close to frosting temp drops the biggest diameter bullet. It may make enough of a difference to help. Also, you can experiment by tumbling lubing some bullets one extra time, it may make a difference as well.

Just in case: Try not sizing the bullets, that would cancel any benefit of a bigger bullet.

Anyway, working up the load as already suggested is good advice. One of the time-proven accurate loads for a 158 SWC is 13.0-13.5 grains of 2400, working up to that is a good approach.

It's not the alloy. WW is fine at magnum velocity.

[44man]

Most TL boolits will work fine with a good lube. Nothing says LLA needs to be used. :Fire:

[Potsy]

I suspect the strain is more than the tumble lube can bear with top end loads.
However, I did have a 50th anniversary Flattop .357 that would scatter 358429's with 50/50 lube into 6" patterns @ 25 yards with 2400 (don't remember the exact charge, but with trimmed .357 brass, it was chronying 1200fps or a little better) and lead a little more than I liked.
A trip through the toaster oven and then water dunking them gave 2"-3" groups at the same range.

[Moonie]

Interesting as I use 45/45/10 in 2 of my sons 30-06 rifles at pressures above this 357 load with no issues and no leading. Granted these are with gas checked boolits but to say the lube failed because it was pushed beyond its limits seems incorrect at least in my experience. Granted I'm not shooting full house 30-06 loads with it but they are well above 2K fps.

[Echo]

With the 231 load you are swatting the boolit sharply, possibly causing it to obturate in the chamber throat and seal. The 2400 load is somewhat softer in it's approach, and the boolit is not obturating enough, allowing gas to blast through, producing leading.

Or something...

My dos centavos.

[peerlesscowboy]

I've never tumble lubed but FWIW I s'pect here's the answer.

TL is a pretty marginal lube system. With your low power loads, it could cope. With the hot load,
it could not. Switch to a conventional lube design of known good performance like Lee
358 158 RF, Lyman 358429, Lyman 358477, RCBS 38 150 SWC (earlier same boolit was 38 150 K)
and size to throat diam or +.001" with a known good lube like NRA 50-50 (Javelina is
one maker, there are many) and you will be OK.

Fit to throats is critical, as is adequate lube for high velocity & pressure loads.

Bill

[Junior1942]

I've ran hundreds of that exact same bullet and exact same lube through my Rossi 92 @ 1600 fps, and there's never been a trace of lead in the barrel. I use two coats of LLA on the bullets. I suspect that's your problem--not enough lube. LLA is cheap.

[mongo]

I had sized the boolits using a Lee sizing die for .358 then coated the boolits once again with a light coat of 45/45/10. Ill give another light coat of lube then load some up with 231. Knowing that 4.0 grains shoot great in my pistol using .38 special, Thats where I will start at . Many thanks to all for the help. Tommy

[GabbyM]

Don’t’ think anyone has mentioned the possibility of swaging the bullet diameter down when seating and crimping the bullet in the case.

Lee factory crimp die is noted for this issue but other crimp dies can easily crush your bullet also. Then there can be problems with expander balls that are undersized.

Narrow bands found on the tumble lube designs are easily swaged down.

[pdawg_shooter]

That is the exact same load I use in my 4" Python. Never had any leading with it.

[R.M.]

What about the cylinder throats? Could they be swagging the bullet smaller? Try and drop a bullet through the throats and see if they're smaller than you sized boolit.

[MtGun44]

A dimensional check on the gun (throats) and boolit after loading - as Gabby and RM said,
is not a bad idea.

Bill

[357shooter]

I had sized the boolits using a Lee sizing die for .358 then coated the boolits once again with a light coat of 45/45/10. Ill give another light coat of lube then load some up with 231. Knowing that 4.0 grains shoot great in my pistol using .38 special, Thats where I will start at . Many thanks to all for the help. Tommy
Did the bullets size down or simply pass through the sizer? I suggest you try them unsized, but if they just passed through it won't really help.

[ColColt]

If the alloy were BHN15 and the boolit isn't too small and properly sized to the throats I wouldn't think that would lead. That amount of 2400 is a hummer and I would suspect a harder alloy would be beneficial...IMHO.

[Gohon]

For the last 6 years I've cast and shoot a 22 Hornet, 223, 357 magnum, 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 30-30, 30-06, and 357 maximum using nothing but LLA with a 60/40 mix of Johnson Paste Wax. Both the Lee design and conventional design are used. I've pushed these calibers mild to wild (wild being not to exceed max loads) and never experienced leading due to the lube. As a matter of fact I don't have leading problems period.

I use one alloy, straight wheel weights with 2-3% tin in the mix. Granted all are gas check designs which does make a difference, except for the 45 ACP, but calling LLA marginal is simply not correct. I don't think your problem is the lube at all. I also suspect it wasn't from enough lube either as it doesn't take much LLA to work properly.

No doubt you have a problem and will need to move one step at a time as others have suggested but the lube would be at the bottom of my check list. Personally I think I would start with bullet size and work from there. Considering the alloy your using, you seem to also need to back off on the load.

[williamwaco]

You are getting lots of good advice here but you asked "What did you do wrong?"

What you did wrong is that you are comparing Apples to Oranges. A Compact 4 cylinder four door sedan to a Grand Prix Racing car.

You are comparing a mild target load to a flat out hell bent for leather magnum load. I use that same Lee bullet a lot in my .357 and .38 special loads. I cast them from 100% air cooled wheel weights. I use 4.5 grains Herco, 4.0 grains AA No2 or 3.5 gr bullseye in .38 special cases with 70/30 LLA / Mineral Spirits. They are all very accurate and zero leading.

In the .357 loads, I have used 6.5 grains Unique, 7.2 grains Herco, and 12 grains 2400. Same comment, excellent accuracy, zero leading. ( To me, zero leading means no cleaning needed after 100 or so rounds )

My opinion is that you should immediately back off that 15 grain number. If you want to use 15 grains of 2400 ( or any similar load ) You are going to need lots of good lube and even then you will see significantly more leading than with your 4.0 grain 231 load.

I really like the tumble lube system but I haven't tried it with maximum magnum loads. My expectation based on lots of experience with the .357 magnum is that it is not going to work.

FYI: The .357 Magnum is my all time favorite handgun cartridge. BUT It has been notorious since its birth for severe leading.

[fecmech]

FYI: The .357 Magnum is my all time favorite handgun cartridge. BUT It has been notorious since its birth for severe leading.

I believe it got that reputation from WW factory Lubaloy loads and all the gun scribes blaming "lead bullets". I've been shooting .357 mags since 1970 albeit conventionally lubed ones with never a leading problem.

[MtGun44]

If you think that your lube is good, but always use GCs, you are fooling yourself.

The GCs are doing what they always do - providing a seal and cleaning up after the
fact as they go down the barrel. The GC is covering so you have really no idea at all
how the lube is doing, try the same ones with NO lube and GC and you will probably
have the same results. GCs are an absolutely viable way to go, they work, no question
about it. I prefer to use a plain based boolit in a good design and with a good lube
for cost and convenience reasons. If you like GCs and LLA, have at it - I have no
doubt whatsoever that this is a workable and good way to go if you don't mind the
cost & fiddliness of the GCs and the stink and mess of the LLA. Not my cup of tea,
but certainly a workable solution that will produce good ammo.

Experience of hundreds of folks here having failure after failure with LLA, and succeeding
eventually with help, or switching to conventional lube in thread after thread indicates that
LLA is clearly a marginal lube system, but can work if not overstressed. Reports indicate that
adding Johnson wax helps it a lot.

Bill

[Gohon]

Again you are not correct. I have Lee 158 grain RN/FP mold that is a bevel base design I use for a couple 38 specials only. However I have tested this bullet in a 357 magnum rifle using the same lube up to speeds of 1500 plus fps. No failure of lube, no leading. I prefer gas check designs because of the speeds I shoot my rifles and I don't care what lube is used they require gas checks. I think your wrong about the purpose of gas checks also. Even some of the plain base casts I use in the 45 ACP have been loaded in 45 Colt cases and shot from my rifles with no problems.

You don't like LLA......that's fine as each to their own, but to tell the thousands that use LLA and like it, that their lube is just marginal is not only incorrect but unfair. Just because I and many others have found a way to lube our bullets without spending a fortune on lubricators, heaters, lube sticks, top punches and so on, is just wrong. I haven't see hundreds and hundreds of folks claiming failure of LLA on here. There have been a few for sure but when on reads further into their posts it usually stands clear there are mitigating circumstances that in the end point to something very different as their real problem.

In the mean time I'll continue on my marginal way that works very well, smelling that wonderful lube as it dries on those wonderful shootable bullets. Oh, if I do get a little on my hands, Dawn dish soap washes it right off.

I'm not arguing with you here Bill and I hope you don't take it that way, but I really do think you're way off base on this one. If you have facts that LLA will not stand up to what it is claimed to do, then I'm more than willing to hear it out and even change my ways but it seems to me you just don't like LLA for the simple reason you don't want to like it. But, that is just an assumption and you know what they say about that. Have a good day and good shooting........

[MtGun44]

All I am saying is that many people have lots of trouble with LLA. I have readily acknowledged
and will again here that many people have good results. This is why I say "marginal" - which
I define as having very little in reserve. If you do everything right, it works. If something is
off - we have one of very many new threads.

LLA CAN WORK, I agree. It absolutely generates more "help me" threads here than any
other lube system and is more trouble to get working, many giving up and switching, usually with
instant success, once they get the right design, fit and lube.

If you haven't seen the large number of LLA failures, I suggest that you haven't been here
long or haven't been paying attention very well. It is one of THE top issues, mostly with
9mms, although 9mms are a problem child in general, too.

LLA IS marginal - but DOES work for many folks and has the wonderful advantage of being
really cheap for the newbie or the poor folks (been there in both camps). I grant all those
things, but still believe that there is very little margin of performance in the system (marginal)
and people fall off the edge much more easily. I do not try to tell people not to use it, I understand
that $150 to set up a lubrisizer is a whole lot of cash for many and for some isn't going to happen.


I do want to explain that the system can work if we get it right, and I try to help them get it right, but
LLA as a lube system is weak and for similar cost, but a bit more work, they might reach success
sooner with pan lubing and a conventional design.

Hard not to tell someone about the known direct shortcut to success when you know one, too.

Bill

[Gohon]

Well Bill, I guess enough has been said but just to note, I'm not a newbie and I can certainly afford to buy what ever I want. Not sure I would want to set myself up as calling people who like and use LLA as a newbie or to poor to afford anything else but, whatever. Those that do want to know might take note that Ranch Dog, who has put a lot of research into bullet designs, uses exclusively LLA with loads pushed to the max. I certainly wouldn't argue with his experience. But, difference of opinion is what makes the world go around so I'll just continue using what I know from experience works, and not what someone thinks I should know. We'll just have to agree to disagree............

Oh BTW, I've been here almost as long as you have and I certainly do pay attention to what I read. I just don't spend as much of my time posting here as some do.........I'm to busy loading and shooting.

[williamwaco]

All I am saying is that many people have lots of trouble with LLA. I have readily acknowledged
and will again here that many people have good results. This is why I say "marginal" - which
I define as having very little in reserve. If you do everything right, it works. If something is
off - we have one of very many new threads.

LLA CAN WORK, I agree. It absolutely generates more "help me" threads here than any
other lube system and is more trouble to get working, many giving up and switching, usually with
instant success, once they get the right design, fit and lube.

If you haven't seen the large number of LLA failures, I suggest that you haven't been here
long or haven't been paying attention very well. It is one of THE top issues, mostly with
9mms, although 9mms are a problem child in general, too.

LLA IS marginal - but DOES work for many folks and has the wonderful advantage of being
really cheap for the newbie or the poor folks (been there in both camps). I grant all those
things, but still believe that there is very little margin of performance in the system (marginal)
and people fall off the edge much more easily. I do not try to tell people not to use it, I understand
that $150 to set up a lubrisizer is a whole lot of cash for many and for some isn't going to happen.


I do want to explain that the system can work if we get it right, and I try to help them get it right, but
LLA as a lube system is weak and for similar cost, but a bit more work, they might reach success
sooner with pan lubing and a conventional design.

Hard not to tell someone about the known direct shortcut to success when you know one, too.

Bill


+1 here.

My experience agrees almost exactly with yours.

I really like the Lee system. It is So FAST and so EASY. I really want it to work because I really want to use it.

I have tried it with several of my firearms with results ranging from fabulous to disastrous. I have used it with two S&W .357 revolvers. Two S&W .38 specials, one 9mm and two .45ACPs.

I find that LLA works really well - sometimes, with some bullets, in some guns.
At other times it fails miserably with some bullets in some guns.

I have found no load that works universally in all my handguns.

A load that works beautifully in one gun will lead like crazy in another.

I have never tried the Johnson Paste Wax. I have never used anything but Alox and beeswax and have never had any problem that that lube couldn't handle. I believe ( my opinion only ) that if LLA fails, it is not because it needs Johnsons Wax. It is because the system doesn't place enough Alox in the right places.

Tonight after supper, I ran 100 Lee .358 158 SWC TL bullets through my Lyman 4500 using Lyman 50/50 beeswax/alox. Tomorrow I will load them with a load that has produced unacceptable leading with LLA and see if that fixes the problem.

Curiously ( or perhaps not surprising at all ) I have much better results with autoloading pistols than with revolvers using LLA and tumble lube bullets.













t

[mongo]

With the 231 load you are swatting the boolit sharply, possibly causing it to obturate in the chamber throat and seal. The 2400 load is somewhat softer in it's approach, and the boolit is not obturating enough, allowing gas to blast through, producing leading.

Or something...

My dos centavos.

I put another light coat of 45/45/10 on a bunch of boolits yesterday. Loaded them up tonight using 6.0 grains of 231. As I mentioned my load for .38 special is 4.0 grains of231 with the same Lee 158 SWC-TL and I have had zero leading with that combo. I shoot around 200 rounds each range visit. Will be heading out tomorrow to give the new rounds a try. Tommy

[44man]

Bill and William, or is it Bill and Bill??? They both mirror my use of LLA and it is true that the use of it has generated more failure posts then any other situation.
Some DO get it to work but to say it will work in every gun and on every boolit is wrong. For me, it is instant leading in every revolver with any load. Is the reason my longer barrels? No idea.
I peel out strips of lead in short order with LLA but using the same loads and boolits with Felix lets me shoot for years without cleaning. I do clean the cylinder pin often because I use STP on them and after a long time shooting, it will bother me, mainly because I want a good, clean lube on the gun.
Soft alloys or hard alloys do not mean the gun will lead, you can keep a barrel clean with any of them until you skid the rifling past the base band or turn your boolit into a putty ball that tries to escape the gap. :holysheep
Some say to change the load or powder but my game is accuracy and accuracy ONLY and to tell me to work a load to cut down leading means you wear your hat sideways. The day I give up accuracy to cure a leading problem is the day I quit shooting.
Sustained accuracy without cleaning for years means there is NO leading and if you tell me I can do that with LLA or any mix thereof, I will gracefully pour it in your hair! :bigsmyl2: Even Alox and beeswax will double my groups so anything else mixed with wax is better.
I am convinced any Alox left in the bore behind a boolit BURNS and blows smoke.
Just where did that stuff get popular? If it was hair spray or pig droppings, some would still use it.
Look at SPG for BPCR! It will foul the last 10" badly. You need to wet patch between shots and it is hard to push a patch through. Any home made lube will work better and allow many shots with a nice grease ring on the muzzle. I spent big bucks on the stuff and could not give it away through a summer of shoots.
Handgun shooters ignore twist rates and flash points of lubes. That short tube is covered in pixie dust!
Someone has to explain the magic of Alox to me and how it is better then dipping a boolit in Crisco or lard.

[44man]

What does a boolit lube really do? Does it lube the boolit you are shooting? Seems as if the grooves are BEHIND the front of the boolit. That means LEAD is in contact first. OH, OH! Do you need to coat the bore with lube between shots?
No, the lube is to condition the bore FOR THE NEXT SHOT so it is the same as the first shot. That means if you shoot 10 or 1000 shots, the bore condition must never change.
Burning Alox and leaving ash in the bore will shorten the amount of shots until accuracy decides to go away. That ash will gather lead. It is abrasive. The boolit will run over the ash.
Gas checks DO NOT SCRAPE lead either and will run it over. Gas checked boolits can lead as bad as PB.
The best suggestion I can make, no matter the thousands of other answers, is to get rid of Alox.

[MtGun44]

Agree to disagree.

OK - a key skill is to disagree without being diagreeable. I beliive we have both
done this. I hope you didn't think I was being negative with the low cost of LLA system.

I am not suggesting that everyone that uses it can't afford anything better. I just realize
that reagardless of the goodness or badness of the system, the low cost is a huge attaction
for some that might not otherwise be able to get involved in the boolit casting game.
Certainly others use it for convenience, speed and other reasons and some of these
people have a lubrisizer or two sitting there bolted to their bench. But low cost is a
huge attraction for the beginner, no doubt. Other things attact the more seasoned
casters, but who doesn't like a bargain?!

Bill

[MtGun44]

44man,

What lube do you recommend? Felix? I have some Felix I bought
here, but it is very hard, like straight beeswax, it would seem,
have not tried it as it seems to need a heater and I don't have
any of my 5 lubrisizers set up with a heater. Is it OK to soften
it, and what would you recommend - vaseline, or STP or what?

Bill

[44man]

44man,

What lube do you recommend? Felix? I have some Felix I bought
here, but it is very hard, like straight beeswax, it would seem,
have not tried it as it seems to need a heater and I don't have
any of my 5 lubrisizers set up with a heater. Is it OK to soften
it, and what would you recommend - vaseline, or STP or what?

Bill
You have not made Felix right or bought for a rifle. Follow the recipe on Castpics. I use 2 tbls of mineral oil, 1 tbls of castor oil, 1 tbls of Ivory soap, 1 tbls lanolin and 8 oz of beeswax. It is soft enough to force into GG's with my fingers.

[MtGun44]

Thanks for the reply, I didn't make it. Bought it here.

So to soften this I should add mineral oil, or more lanolin? Seller didn't specify for particular
application, just selling some Felix lube, I had heard good things about it so bought some.
Too hard for me to use. Big block of it just sittting there now.

I assume I can just melt it and add a small qty of mineral oil or lanolin and see how it does.
Sound reasonable?

Bill

[Junior1942]

Soon after I discovered LLA and Lee push-through sizing dies, I removed my Lyman 450 from my bench. As Elvis said, "It's over in the corner standing all alone." That was several years and 1000s of cast bullets ago.

[357shooter]

It's impressive that so many have their clear cut favorite. Keeps things straightforward. I always have one favorite lube method too. Except every 2,000 bullets it changes! A few months ago it was lubrisizer only, with NRA or Darr. Then it was LLA (a couple of mixes), now it's straight JPW. That's it, I'm sticking to it and keeping it easy.

Course, the new BRP 358-158 needs some lube testing along with load testing. So that may change. [smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l:

BTW: my third group with the new BRP bullets produced the best group I've ever shot. 25 yards off a rolled up carpet (low-tech rest), with a 6 inch 357 grouped 0.550 inches. Wow Lubed w/straight JPW, BHN 7 and 3.5 grains of HP-38.

[44man]

Thanks for the reply, I didn't make it. Bought it here.

So to soften this I should add mineral oil, or more lanolin? Seller didn't specify for particular
application, just selling some Felix lube, I had heard good things about it so bought some.
Too hard for me to use. Big block of it just sittting there now.

I assume I can just melt it and add a small qty of mineral oil or lanolin and see how it does.
Sound reasonable?

Bill
Lanolin will not soften it much and has it's own contribution to the lube, Oils will help but to be truthful I would ask Felix.
I don't know who made your Felix but it might have paraffin in it. It has been bent and twisted a million ways but I use the original.
You should be able to take a chunk, roll it in your fingers like putty and stuff it into grease grooves. It works great in a lube sizer with no heat.