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trixter
05-30-2011, 09:00 AM
This may have been answered before, but I didn't see it. I acquired a bunch of lead ingots. I have no idea what their hardness is. Is there a way I can find the approximate hardness before I melt and cast some bullets with them? I need to know if I need to add anything.

Thanks

Rick

RobS
05-30-2011, 09:06 AM
A 5/32" ball bearing, a bathroom dial scale and a steady pressure of 60 lbs for 30 seconds. A drill press works well in keeping a steady 60 lbs of pressure. Read/measure the indention and use this chart. This is probably the cheapest means that has a chart aready made for the BHN conversion measurement.

prickett
05-30-2011, 09:10 AM
This may have been answered before, but I didn't see it. I acquired a bunch of lead ingots. I have no idea what their hardness is. Is there a way I can find the approximate hardness before I melt and cast some bullets with them? I need to know if I need to add anything.

Thanks

Rick

Lee sells a hardness tester for $30 to $40. I have one and once you get used to the "microscope" its fairly simple to use.

Someone else bought a set of drafting pencils of varying hardnesses and came up with a pencil hardness to lead hardness chart (you'd have to search this site for the specifics).

Another way would be to cast a boolit from wheel weights and one from the unknown alloy. Place them base to base in a vice and tighten. See which crushes first. If the unknown allow, then its softer than wheel weights.

MtGun44
05-30-2011, 03:11 PM
Take a chunk of known hardness, like wwt or pure and put a ball bearing (any size) between
them and crunch both in a vise until you have a smallish dent.

Compare the hardnesses by comparing dents. Larger than wwt is softer, smaller is harder,
etc. Hardness testers are overkill for most folks. Cast with it and shoot some, see how
they work for you. Doesn't really mean much, actually. Don't overthink this. Scratch easily
with a thumbnail - near pure. No scratch at all - harder than wwt. Anything more precise is
nice but fairly low on the "who cares?" scale, really.

Bill

Will
05-30-2011, 03:44 PM
similar to what 44 said, I just take a known alloy ingot and bang the edges of it into then unknown to see if they dent about the same or one more than the other.

ColColt
05-30-2011, 06:28 PM
I found solace in investing in a lead hardness tester. Thumbnails are great for determining pure or nearly pure lead but outside of that can be anyone's guess. Linotype will run BHN 18-22 if you have any of that around. The grey area in between needs something more sophisticated than a thumbnail if you really want to discern between BHN8 and 18. A good tester will run about $40-50 on upwards of over $100.

trixter
05-30-2011, 06:45 PM
Thanks all

Bret4207
05-31-2011, 06:25 AM
It doesn't matter at this point. Se how it casts and shoots. Rather than trying to get a specific "hardness" (a completely ambiguous term for our uses since no one is willing to agree on what "hard" means) try working you loads to what you alloy wants.

MtGun44
05-31-2011, 06:45 AM
What Bret says. Too many worry about exact alloy, how hard it is, what exact temperature
to cast at, etc.

"if you really want to discern between BHN8 and 18." - mostly doesn't make
any real difference, so who cares?

This is much like sweating what tire pressure to use, 30 or 32 psi when you are first learning
to drive a car. MAKES NO DIFFERENCE! Learn to use the clutch, shift, maintain your lane,
use the turn signals and mirrors well and be safe. SOME DAY you will get to where the
difference in tire pressures is noticable, but don't waste too much time on it at first.

Many are WAY overthinking. Fit is very important, good boolit design is very important, good lube
is very important. Most of the rest is MUCH lower on the scale, and can be mostly ignored
at first. Don't overthink this stuff, guys.

If you have a known good design, fit properly and known good lube you are about 90%+ going to
be successful, regardless of the other stuff. Once you are rolling along, looking for new
challenges, sure - fiddle to your heart is content. But initially, take it easy.

Fit, design, lube. Forget the rest until it gives you trouble.

Bill

RobS
05-31-2011, 12:14 PM
Powder selection as well

Gussy
05-31-2011, 12:22 PM
Drop the ingots onto concrete. If it's a dull thud, pure or near pure lead. If it rings, it's not pure lead but much harder.

There, now you're half sorted. Cast the pure for muzzle loaders and the rest, for the rest.

pdawg_shooter
05-31-2011, 03:32 PM
I use a hardness tester to match alloy to velocity for performance on GAME. Just shooting good and not leading is fine for punching holes in paper or plinking, but for hunting, hardness matters.

MtGun44
05-31-2011, 03:56 PM
Agreed, pdawg - I'm assuming as a new caster he is just trying to make holes close to each
other without glopping up the gun. As you say, later - for hunting, it becomes a much
bigger deal.

It just seems like newbies sometimes get a bit wrapped up in secondary stuff to the
extent that they are in the "paralysis by analysis" phase and just need to get on with
it.

Bill

ColColt
05-31-2011, 07:26 PM
"if you really want to discern between BHN8 and 18." - mostly doesn't make
any real difference, so who cares?


It makes a lot of difference if you're shooting 20 gr of 2400 with a soft BHN8 bullet. Someone's going to be spending as much time getting lead out of their barrel as they did reloading. But, what do I know.

MtGun44
06-01-2011, 02:12 AM
I regularly shoot 8 BHN over 20 gr 2400, my favorite load in my 44s. Not a problem at all,
zero leading, 2" or better at 50 yds.

My .357 mags like it too, not max but near it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=929

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=925

Harder is not necessarily better. 8 or 18 doesn't make much difference if you have a good
design, fit and lube. I don't go looking for 8 BHN, mostly use wwts at about 12 or so, but
some range lead is around 8, so I have specifically tested it and it is not a problem with my
std full power magnum loads at all.

Bill

Bret4207
06-01-2011, 06:26 AM
It makes a lot of difference if you're shooting 20 gr of 2400 with a soft BHN8 bullet. Someone's going to be spending as much time getting lead out of their barrel as they did reloading. But, what do I know.

I don't mean to be disagreeable, but thinking like that is what we've worked for years to get PAST. Many people are shooting "soft" boolits over heavy charges at farily high velocity. A lot of it depends on the gun and the fit. Some of it depends on the powder, crimp, design, lube. Somewhere in the secondary or tertiary level comes Bhn. But if you want to take that tack, fine- what Bhn will eliminate all problems without regard to the first level issues? What alloy at what Bhn? Do you or most of the rest of us know our exact alloys for certain? I doubt it.

Stop worrying about Bhn and start shooting. A tougher boolit can make things easier, but it won't fix everything.

RobS
06-01-2011, 08:29 PM
As been hit upon, it's all relative to what people want to do. Yes a person can shoot a finger nail scratch bullet at upper "magnum" velocities with appropriate power selection (slower powders), correct bullet fit, good lube etc. and many here do this without any issues, me included. The other side is running the economical route of quicker powders, smaller charges, for mid to upper mid velocities which makes it more difficult to pick up a boolit that has a finger nail scratch in it or one that doesn't that makes "knowing" worth while. I also fit into this category as well.

Many here have their niche and it works for them............no problem at all in that. BHN testers, thermometers, different expander plugs, different types of dies, etc., etc., etc. are merely tools to the trade and some people like to have them and utilize them with each casting or reloading session where as others don't need them or don't use such tools on regular basis. Understanding the basics before plunging into the more specifics of casting reloading should take form first which is what many here are saying in some fashion or another.

ColColt
06-01-2011, 09:49 PM
As an old southern philosopher and comedian (Bro. Dave Gardner) once said, "It's all in how you think about it and how you study it". I haven't learned near enough about this but I'm working on it.

303Guy
06-02-2011, 06:12 AM
I've had quite a bit of fun playing around with alloys without being too scientific. In the end I've found that good ol' scrap lead pipe is pretty good stuff. Harder, softer, tougher - makes no real difference but it would be good to keep a record just in case you find an alloy that really shines so that you can replicate it. I found a long time ago that my pretty boolits that I kept for club use were actually poor performers and the ugly stuff that came out the refractory floor of a furnace was pretty accurate and did not flame cut like my lino mix alloy. Heck, this stuff was dull out the mould! I wish I had it now. Some of my attempts to make a tough alloy for hunting turned out to bend so easily as to be useless even though it held together quite well in an impact test into sand.

Echo
06-02-2011, 09:56 AM
as an old southern philosopher and comedian (bro. Dave gardner) once said, "it's all in how you think about it and how you study it". I haven't learned near enough about this but i'm working on it.

rejoice!

ColColt
06-02-2011, 06:50 PM
rejoice!

You know him too!!:)Yep, rejoice, dear hearts.

dlviolin
06-06-2011, 11:44 AM
A 5/32" ball bearing, a bathroom dial scale and a steady pressure of 60 lbs for 30 seconds. A drill press works well in keeping a steady 60 lbs of pressure. Read/measure the indention and use this chart. This is probably the cheapest means that has a chart aready made for the BHN conversion measurement.

Thanks for the post on this method. Sounds like frugality and accuracy have coincided[smilie=w:

I'm assuming that the sample should be on a solid base, like steel, especially if the sample is thin like a linotype slug. Correct?

Dan

Springfield
06-06-2011, 11:57 AM
dl: if you need to know more exact I have a tester and can test bullets if you want to mail some this way. I have done enogh testing that now the fingernail test gets me close enough, as good as the lead pencil testing. I couldn't get that to be test better than about 4 Brinell numbers apart.

bumpo628
06-06-2011, 02:15 PM
A 5/32" ball bearing, a bathroom dial scale and a steady pressure of 60 lbs for 30 seconds. A drill press works well in keeping a steady 60 lbs of pressure. Read/measure the indention and use this chart. This is probably the cheapest means that has a chart aready made for the BHN conversion measurement.

You might be a genius.
I never thought of using a scale and a drill press. The only thing I can add is that you could find a weight that could be hung off the drill press handle that gives 60 lbs on the scale. That would give more consistent force than your arm. Plus, after you've verified it you can put the scale back in the bathroom. It's not rocket surgery - it's boolit science!

Centaur 1
06-06-2011, 09:03 PM
A 5/32" ball bearing, a bathroom dial scale and a steady pressure of 60 lbs for 30 seconds. A drill press works well in keeping a steady 60 lbs of pressure. Read/measure the indention and use this chart. This is probably the cheapest means that has a chart aready made for the BHN conversion measurement.

I tried this today and it works. I placed a 12" square floor tile on top of the scale to even the applied pressure, then rezeroed the scale. It's actually really easy to hold the scale right at 60 lbs. This needs to be a sticky.

Lizard333
06-06-2011, 09:26 PM
I've had quite a bit of fun playing around with alloys without being too scientific. In the end I've found that good ol' scrap lead pipe is pretty good stuff. Harder, softer, tougher - makes no real difference but it would be good to keep a record just in case you find an alloy that really shines so that you can replicate it. I found a long time ago that my pretty boolits that I kept for club use were actually poor performers and the ugly stuff that came out the refractory floor of a furnace was pretty accurate and did not flame cut like my lino mix alloy. Heck, this stuff was dull out the mould! I wish I had it now. Some of my attempts to make a tough alloy for hunting turned out to bend so easily as to be useless even though it held together quite well in an impact test into sand.

My "ugly" Boolits shoot pretty nice as well. At first all I cared about was trying to get them purty, now all I care about is wether or not hey shoot well.

Longwood
06-06-2011, 11:05 PM
I tried this today and it works. I placed a 12" square floor tile on top of the scale to even the applied pressure, then rezeroed the scale. It's actually really easy to hold the scale right at 60 lbs. This needs to be a sticky.

I bought a digital postal scale, off of ebay, for less than $20, that has a capacity of 77 lbs.
It comes in handy way more often than I ever thought it would.
I use it for everything from measuring my lube recipe, weighing wheel weights and ingots to weighing parcels. It's sort of fun to weigh the ww's etc. then compare the ingot weight when finished.
It shall now become part of a BHN tester.
I sure have gotten my moneys worth with the scale.

Leadlobber
06-07-2011, 02:39 AM
Thanks, RobS, I emailed Lee today to request a chart that goes below 8.0 Bhn
You hvae helped me out.

RobS
06-11-2011, 11:01 PM
Thanks, RobS, I emailed Lee today to request a chart that goes below 8.0 Bhn
You hvae helped me out.

You could ask Lee or you can simply download the PDF chart that I made and put up on post #2; either one will work fine.