Tell me what you think, 125gr LRN 9mm

[Sapper771]

Hey guys,

New to casting, this is what I have so far. I have been casting 9mm in a Lee 125gr .356" 2R 6 cavity mold. The bullets cast at .358"-.360" and weigh 126gr-127gr. Using air cooled WW alloy, tumble lubed in alox, air dried, sized in a Lee .356 push through sizer, tumble lubed again, air dried again. I am shooting these bullets in a Glock 17 with a Lone Wolf barrel. The Lone Wolf barrel groove diameter is .355". The loads i have been tinkering with is 4.7gr of WSF and 4.2gr of W231, both at 1.130". Both loads are accurate at 10 yards, but they lead the last inch of the barrel(muzzle). From the information on this site, this is a sign that the lube is not sufficient. The positive side to this leading is that it is incredibly easy to remove. A few passes with a 40 caliber bore brush can remove the majority of it. A chore boy wrapped bore brush knocks it completely out. I am use to the leading that i was getting from factory lead bullets, you know, the kind where you have to amass an army to remove.

A few days ago, I attempted to mix some 45/45/10 lube up (THANK YOU RECLUSE!). It didnt turn out the way it should have, but it was still usable. I lubed some bullets up with the 45/45/10, dried them , and loaded them. I shot them yesterday and found that the leading had been reduced to the last half inch of the barrel.

At this point, I am not really sure which way to go with this. Should I reduce my loads, change powders, keep tweaking the lube? I am trying to completely eliminate the leading, or at least minimize it as much as possible. I have also read that the bore may be roughly finished and in need of some polishing.

I guess you can say that I am at a fork in the road and needing some guidance. Thanks in advance.

[milprileb]

There are experts here who will come up and bring experience to help you over come that leading. I will only mention that tumble lube may (just may, not an absolute fact), have limitations to lube properly with some loads and calibers (your barrel is in the variables at play as well ).

I say this because I have 45acp loads where Tumble Lube on non TL bullets shoot with no leading of barrel in very accurate top end loads. I have 45acp loads of lesser FPS using different powder and there is a trace (faint) in bore after 50 rds but accuracy is great. PB vs Bullseye... powder burn rate may have an effect.

On my 9mm reloads: I am not sure tumble lube will work well for me. While I have not tried the Recluse recipe (on the agenda ), with Lee Liq. Allox I get leading in bore (bullets are sized .356) but some loads using stick lube less leading: accuracy remains same and needs improvement. Experts here have directed me to look at .357 sizing and alloy a bit of lead in to my pure WW bullets to correct it. I will do so and see if that stops the leading. I suspect it might but I am prepared to find (with 9mm mind you) that perhaps tumble lube is less effective than stick lube to preclude leading. That may happen.

I mention this as only as a mark in the sand where I am at in the same drama you are experiencing. Now to barrels. It may very well be that my barrel is not cut as smooth and its the culprit regardless of alloy, sizing, lube, and loads. If so, I will have to cross that bridge when time comes.

It does not take much in my pistol to bring new Voo Doo into play. 4.0 gr of Bullseye and trace of leading, and 4.1 will bring about leading and 4.2 is even worse.

Anyhow, my closing shot is this: I am hopeful that I will find cast bullets sized at .357 will cure my leading issues along with the new alloy. I expect that the new batch of bullets cast as such will tell me conclusively what lube will work. I am prepared to find tumble lube is less ideal (hope not though) and if it is, then I will stick lube if my weapon shoots the loads and is accurate and does not lead.

There is a point when chasing fog is just that. If tumble lube is the only variable that allows leading, then in 9mm.... I won't use it. That solution may work for me and not for you as our barrels determine sometimes the variables that work best.

[Sapper771]

Thank you for the reply. It appears that we are in the same boat.

I have a tumble lube bullet mold. Its actually what I started out on, but I wasnt getting very good accuracy. Then when my six cavity (non TL) mold came in, i started using it with much better results on paper. I may need to try the 45/45/10 with the TL mold, give it another chance.

[prickett]

(this is a previous posting, so some of it isn't applicable)

Few people have success with TL 9mm's. Some do, but most don't. If you are new to casting, you might want to try pan lubing (and, if successful, buy a Lubrisizer - assuming you shoot any volume of rounds). 9mm is a difficult caliber to start with.

I'd suggest you beagle your mold (or buy a .358" mold). Then, starting at .358" sizing. If that fits your chamber and feeds ok, stop. You are good to go. If not, try .357".

I too slugged my barrel (.355") and sized according to that. But, I too got leading. Every size up to .358" leaded. Once I hit .358" the problem went away.

Good luck!

Oh, BTW, I too can shoot commercial .356" lead bullets without leading. Never figured why. Accuracy of the .358" will probably blow away the .356" commercial boolits.

[milprileb]

Just a add on to tumble lube. Sizing can be discovery learning and I am into that now.

I do recognize that Speer and others major firms sell lead bullets (I think swaged) and they must use a dip/ tumble lube on them. So this manner of lubrication is not faulty in logic, theory or practice. I think its entirely possible tumble lube will work just fine once I sort out sizing issues. It may not be any issue whatsoever with the bullets and be entirely a less than ideal smooth finished barrel.

Entirely possible all my issues will erase once sizing is under control. Entirely probable tumble lube can perform well.

RIght now: I am still coming out of the fog of variables.

[azjohn]

I am currently using that same boolit and have finally got to the point of no leading. I am using air cooled WW with a little tin added. Last loading was 3.7 grains of 231 at 1.125. I started at 3.3 grains and have increased it to this point. I am using BAC lube and after 5 rounds I have a nice lube ring at the end of the barrel. Sounds like you are running out of lube. I also use a 38spcl sizing die that I ground the decapping pin off. I use this to open up the case like an M-die would. This helped me as I was getting some leading at the chamber end as my boolits were being swaged down some when seated. Keep at it you will get where you want to be. It can be frustrating at times; but it is sure satisfying when you end up with a lead free bore.

[milprileb]

John,
How you adding tin to ww metal and how much to a ten pound pot ?

Thanks.

[Echo]

John,
How you adding tin to ww metal and how much to a ten pound pot ?

Thanks.

Well - if the pot is dang near full, we can assume 10 pounds in the pot. Ten pounds is 160 ounces. Two percent is 3.2 ounces.

Some folks just drop a tin boolit into the pot, or somesuch, to 'sweeten' the pot for good fillout. Others 'smelt' a batch in their dutch ovens and pour up ingots so they have a fairly uniform alloy. That's my plan - I render down my WW's, pour into muffin tins, then weigh a batch of WW ingots (up to 40 pounds) and add 2% Sn (solder, whatever), then pour up into angle-iron molds - I only use those ingot molds for the WW+2%Sn alloy.

[MT Gianni]

I would try a small batch with a heavier coat of 50/50/10. You may have to lube 3 times instead of two but it will let you know if it is lube failure or a bbl flaw if all your leading is in the same place.

[azjohn]

I am only adding about 2 ounces to 10lb pot. Not very scientific I know, but I don't have a hardness tester or thermometer. I try to keep my pot on the low side as far as temp goes. If they start to frost I keep adjusting down usually to about 5 or 6 on the dial on my drip -o-matic. I can scratch my bolits with a fingernail and if I drop one on the floor it has to go back to the pot.

[MtGun44]

TL is a marginal lube system that can definitely work. It has more likelihood of success at
lower velocities and pressures. 9mm tends to be on the edge and this leading at the end of
the bbl is your boolit running out of lube. Another coating may work, or you can move up
to pan lubing or a lubrisizer with a conventional lube groove design (not sure if yours is
TL design or conventional design). I would also try .357 diameter, may get some improvement
in the lube issue with a tighter fit, too.

Good luck, 9mm is a bit of a problem child with lead, but by going slightly larger diameter you are
at least of on the right track, but may need even bigger diam. You have accy, now you need better
and/or more lube to solve the leading issue. Good start.

Bill

[Sapper771]

This morning, I took some of the bullets and lubed them a third time, about to load them up. I ordered a .357" sizing die last week, hopefully it will be in tomorrow. I am starting to see what everyone is saying about the 9mm problem child. I guess I am fortunate though, it could be a lot worse. 9mm is my primary caliber, so I dont really have a choice....i have to make it work. Thanks to all for the assistance, it is appreciated.

Do you think that water quenching the WW alloy would help any?

[Sapper771]

Would going to a slower 147gr bullet help at all ?

[Cherokee]

I use the same bullet you have (with lube groove) in my 9mm sized .356 using Lar's CR lube. It does lead slightly in my .355 barrel but I don't worry about it because (1) the load is accurate and (2) it celans right up easily with a copper chore boy wraped brush.

[MtGun44]

WQ unlikely to help IME, but some have had accy improvments with WQ, I have not found
it to help. Less likely to help leading than accy. More and better lube. Tighter fit. You
are heading in the right dir, .357 likely to fix this, but if not try dipping into molten
NRA 50-50 or Recluse's Paste wax mix. The proponents (I have never used it, not a fan of
TL at all) say that the addition of Johnson's Paste Wax is a big improvement.

Like I said, 9mm is a PITA for some folks with some guns with some boolits. I use Lee
356 120TC sized to .357 and have had no problems with many different 9mms, using Javelina
(NRA 50-50) lube or LBT soft blue, on some occasions. Mostly have 50-50 in my lubrisizers
now. If you want a path that is pretty certain of success, I suggest this design, diam and
lube - MANY here have had excellent results with this combo in 9mm, and it seems to feed
in anything.

Bill

[casterofboolits]

You might also try a slower powder. I prefer BlueDot in my 9mm reloads.

[azjohn]

I tried water quenching and still had some leading. I think larger size and a better lube will help with your problem. Load some dummy rounds and pull the boolit and measure again. See how much the boolit is being swaged down when seated. It may be sized properly before it is seated but the end result is what the size is when it leaves the case when fired. I am also sorting cases by head stamp as an experiment to see if different cases have an effect on the process. So far I have used Winchester and Federal. Next up is R-P cases. I am still going to keep trying different combinations. You have to find what your gun wants and refine it.

[Sapper771]

I am putting together a game plan. I tried my triple lubed bullets today with reduced loads. 4.0gr of W231 reduced leading to the last 1/4" of the barrel, which is improvement. 4.5gr of WSF still leaded the last half inch of the bore. All signs pointing to the lube.

I now have in my possession a .357" sizing die and a bottle of rooster lube. Going to try a few different combos of lube before I move to more expensive measures (lube sizer!!!!!). May see if I can find a 147gr mold and try that.

I will report any progress. THANKS!

[Lizard333]

Sapper771,
My Beretta 92 really likes the boolits I shoot with Orange Magic lube from Lyman and sized to 357. I don't pan lube, I use a 4500, but whatever you got, is what you are going to have to work with. I prefer to use Hp-38/Win 231, as I have it on hand and it burns clean. I am pushing my boolits at about 980 fps, without any leading at all.

Sounds like you are doing all the right things, and you have the right attitude. Nice job of not getting frustrated, kinda nice to see some one enjoying the joys of casting boolits!!

[Sapper771]

Thanks again to all for the assistance.

I got a little frustrated with it, cut all the red tape, and ordered a RCBS Lube a Matic 2 with the. 357" size/lube die and 124gr RN top punch. Everyone was telling me that it would be inevitable, that I would sooner or later have to have a lube sizer.......so I made it happen sooner than later. Got an IDPA match coming up and I want to be "race ready" in time.

Can anyone recommend a good stick lube for 9mm 125gr ? Looking for low smoke and no leading. I order a stick of Thompson Blue Angel and a stick of Thompson Bear blue. The only reason I went with Thompson is because thats what Missouri Bullets uses, and it seemed to do well in my pistol.

Thanks !

[Love Life]

Hey guys,

New to casting, this is what I have so far. I have been casting 9mm in a Lee 125gr .356" 2R 6 cavity mold. The bullets cast at .358"-.360" and weigh 126gr-127gr. Using air cooled WW alloy, tumble lubed in alox, air dried, sized in a Lee .356 push through sizer, tumble lubed again, air dried again. I am shooting these bullets in a Glock 17 with a Lone Wolf barrel. The Lone Wolf barrel groove diameter is .355". The loads i have been tinkering with is 4.7gr of WSF and 4.2gr of W231, both at 1.130". Both loads are accurate at 10 yards, but they lead the last inch of the barrel(muzzle). From the information on this site, this is a sign that the lube is not sufficient. The positive side to this leading is that it is incredibly easy to remove. A few passes with a 40 caliber bore brush can remove the majority of it. A chore boy wrapped bore brush knocks it completely out. I am use to the leading that i was getting from factory lead bullets, you know, the kind where you have to amass an army to remove.

A few days ago, I attempted to mix some 45/45/10 lube up (THANK YOU RECLUSE!). It didnt turn out the way it should have, but it was still usable. I lubed some bullets up with the 45/45/10, dried them , and loaded them. I shot them yesterday and found that the leading had been reduced to the last half inch of the barrel.

At this point, I am not really sure which way to go with this. Should I reduce my loads, change powders, keep tweaking the lube? I am trying to completely eliminate the leading, or at least minimize it as much as possible. I have also read that the bore may be roughly finished and in need of some polishing.

I guess you can say that I am at a fork in the road and needing some guidance. Thanks in advance.

My .02. Tumble lubing with straight LLA for the 9mm did not work out well. I went 50/50 LLA/Mineral spirits. I sized to .357 for a glock 26 and 17. That worked very well. My alloy was 1:1 Lino:pure water dropped. 3 coats. 1 before lubing, 1 after lubing, and 1 more coat the next day. This method did not gum up my dies. and loaded fine and shot fine. The exact load is: RCBS 115 gr RN loaded to a COL of 1.1 over 4.3 gr of win 231/hp38 in WINCHESTER brass. This load showed no high pressure signs, shot to POA, and cycled the action in both pistols. This is all with the FACTORY barrels.

Me being me I had to experiment more. My lovely wife bought me a lube sizer so I had to try some stick lube. Absolute;y no success with Jakes Purple Ceresin. Using the Same load as listed above with only the lube being the variable Speed green was the best lube I used for this boolit followed very closely by Lotak Hard (both can be purchased from the bullshop) no leading was encountered. YMMV and if you have any questions please let me know.

[MtGun44]

Javelina is a readily available brand, but any NRA formula "50-50" lube is known to be very
good. There are lots of others that work, but I strongly recommend you start here with
50+ yrs solid success, then AFTER you have a recipe that is working in the safe zone, you
can spend some time experimenting with other lubes that strike your fancy. There are a
great many lubes, many work well, some not so well, but NRA 50-50 is the lowest risk, IMO,
for a new caster. Also no need to get fiddling with lube heaters at first. Ultimately, some
like harder lubes that require heat to flow through the lubrisizer (I do not), but to keep it
a bit more simple, NRA 50-50 works at room temps. Just a bit of "walk before you run".
Lots of time later to move on to different solutions if you think they will meet your particular
needs and preferences.

No need to stop there, but you'l have a high probability of success. At .357" or even
.358" if needed and it will chamber in your gun, with NRA 50-50 lube and AC WWts should
have accy and no leading, I has for me with the Lee 356 120TC, and for many others, too.

Good luck.

Bill

[GMT210]

Sapper771,

I use the same Lee TL125-2R 6 cavity mold, air-cooled 96-2-2 Pb, Sn, Sb WW alloy with 45/45/10 JPW/LLA/Mineral Spirits in my CZ75D-PCR with a .3555 groove diameter. I tumble lube/size/tumble lube/load. I normally load either 3.8g of W231 or 3.8g of Titegroup with no leading. I have also used Mihec 125 HP design with good results as well. I originally started off with a .3565 sized bullet and then went to a .3575 bullet for accuracy, I had no leading at either size.

I would suggest increasing your size diameter .001 and loading up 20 rounds starting at 3.8-3.9 and then increasing 0.1gr at a times and load another 20 rounds.

Mark

[Lizard333]

I like Orange Magic from Lyman. But I think my next order of lube is going to be from White Label Lube. The Carnuba red. Its cheap too, at less than 2 bucks a stick. Everyone seems to love this stuff. Look in the Vendor's section or just do a search. Good people.

[canyon-ghost]

Glenn and Leah Larson's Carnuba Red is the stuff for dreams! It will go fast enough for my magnums and slow enough for my old contenders. I use it in 9mm but, then again, I use it in full on rifle rounds too!
You'd love it.

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/9004.jpg

Who says a 9mm can't be shot to 50 meters? This is a Custom Shop TC and a very boring winter drought here in Texas. http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/9mmLuger.jpg

How's that for a 9mm side arm? It's pretty accurate.

Ron

[Cherokee]

I used Thompsons Red for many years. Then I switched to Lar's CR (see above), a little softer (what I wanted) but just as good results for pistols, revolvers and rifles and a lot cheaper.

[Sapper771]

Thanks for the recommendations. I have been hearing good things about the carnuba red. I will probably pick up a few sticks of it once I get settled in. Heck, I will more than likely buy a few of all of the lubes just to try out.

Anyone have any experience with Thompson Blue angel?

One thing I noticed on some of the lubes is that they dont specify what applications they are designed for. Are they all pretty much universal? Or are there some lubes designed for rifle/pistol/magnum bullets.

Thanks.

[Sapper771]

Canyon-ghost,

Now I want a Contender................

[canyon-ghost]

Larsen's Carnuba Red is a hard lube for about any application. Carnuba is the hardest and slickest of natural waxes. The standard lube for rifle is 50/50, half beeswax, half alox. NRA 50/50 was used as a universal lube for decades. Rifle lubes are usually a bit thinner unless they go way high velocity.

Blue Angel, smells like blue after shave and is mostly wax. It's over $4 a tube, the Carnuba Red costs me $2 a tube. And, I've seen some Master Class shooters use Carnuba Red and BAC, it's all in what type of lubersizer you have. Mine has heat, Lyman 4500 with heating element so I can use harder lubes that stay on the bullet in hot weather.

Wanting a Contender? They are nice enough that I have four of them, lol. But, be forewarned, you probably can't rob a bank with a single shot. I guess that means they weren't designed for that purpose. lol. They are superbly nice hunting handguns.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/cch001.jpg

This one is Color Case Hardened with a 32 Magnum barrel, a "walking handgun" for small game.

Ron

[skeet1]

White Label 2500+ or BAC.

Ken

[Floydster]

After much experimenting with my 9mm CZ's I have finally come up with an excellent load for my cast bullets.

I cast the Lee 356-120-TC bullet.

50/50 pure lead and WW, 8" of 40/60 solder, water drop, I cast at 675 temp.

Size to .357 using NRA 50/50 lube in my 45 sizer.

Load with 3.3 grs. Bullseye, OAL 1.050.

This is an excellent load, very accurate and soft shooting.

No leading.

[milprileb]

Thundering Coyotes !!!!

I have been loading 3.8 and 4.0 gr BE pushing 124 g RN cast of pure WW metal, water dropped and sticklubed. Maybe I am pushing these bullets too fast and thats a issue of why I get
leading.?????

I see no pressures signs though on primers !

[MtGun44]

Floydster,

Your load sounds very good - much like mine. I'll bet if you quit the water drop,
nothing bad happens.

Milprileb - Too hard and too small can CAUSE leading. Try softer and bigger diam - what lube
are you using? I use NRA 50-50, 3356-120 TC at .357 sometimes I go crazy and leave the
.358 die in the Star and just run the 9mm boolits at .358, no difference in any of my 9mms.
I use a fairly hot load of oddball Vectran SP8 powder, according to the book, it should be
around 1150-1200.

Bill

[Sapper771]

I will definitely be getting some carnuba red and BAC.

I shot some more the other day. Using a .357" sized 125gr RN (air cooled wheel weight alloy) over 4.0gr of W231. Bullets were lubed in 45/45/10, dried, sized, lubed again in 45/45/10, dried, then lubed with Rooster lube. Again, leading in the last half inch of the barrel, except it was on the lands.....none in the grooves. What does this signify? Accuracy was good for the first five rounds, then it went wild.

Thanks

[MtGun44]

Running out of lube at the end of the bbl is how I would interpret it. Apparently big
enough or bumping up to fit the grooves (good) but still not enough lube left at the
end to keep the lands from leading.

Bill

[Crash_Corrigan]

I use Lars CR in my 9's. If you really want to go crazy get in loading cast boolits for a .40 S & W. What a PITA.

[Sapper771]

Hahahaha...... 9mm has shown itself to be a pretty nasty PITA up to this point, 40 has to be awful.

My lube sizer is due in today, I am hoping that it will be my saving grace (fingers crossed).

[Sapper771]

And its still a PITA.......

I shot 125 of my boolits today. 100 were air cooled wheel weights, 25 were water quenched wheel weights. Sized to .357" on my RCBS LAM2 and lubed with Thompson Bear. Under 4.7gr of WSF they were clocking in at 1030 FPS to 1080 FPS.
With the air cooled, 75% of the bore was covered with what appeared to be lube fouling and a little bit of lead fouling. The last 25% of the bore had a light gray haze of leading. The lube fouling came out with a nylon brush, most of the leading came out with a bore brush, the rest was knocked out with a chore boy.
Accuracy was decent at first, then it got worse. The top punch I have doesnt match the nose profile of the bullets I am using, so I there are little rings in the bullet ogive. Dont know if that would effect accuracy that much at 10 yards or not.

With the water quenched boolits accuracy was good, but leading also increased. The bore had some lead skid marks in the grooves, then leaded the last half inch of the barrel.

The only thing I know to do at this point is to change lube, change powder, or give up on casting 9mm.

I am about to pull my hair out.

[MtGun44]

Don't give up, you are close. I have no idea what "Thompson Bear" is but it is failing
you. Switch to NRA 50/50 or LBT soft blue, which are known good. You MIGHT need
to go up to .358.

Velocity should be fine. Note that softer leaded less, a good lesson. Harder is not proof
against leading. Fit is king.

Bill

[Atakawow]

My straight WW, water dropped, 45/45/10 tumble lubed bullets show no leading being pushed at 1110+ FPS.

[Sapper771]

I am trying to keep the faith.

I have carnuba red and BAC Lubes coming. Thompson Bear Cold is a lube made by Thompson. It flows at room temperature, so no heater is required. The Thompson Bear is pretty soft.

My barrel slugs at .355". I went to 356" and got leading, same with 357". Would 358" be too much? Could it be possible that I am not pushing the bulet hard enough?

I have used 45/45/10 and still got leading. Even after two coats.

Thanks again for the assistance.

[Sapper771]

I am using the Lee .356" 125gr 2R 6 cavity mold (non-tumble lube). The lube groove is pretty small on this bullet. My initial concern was that the small lube groove would not hold enough lube for the purpose.

I could lower my powder charge , but then I wouldnt make minor power factor.

[Jailer]

I've got a Lone Wolf 40/9 barrel in my 22 and have been going through the same experience you have. What has worked best so far is .358 and 5gr of Power Pistol. I still get a grey wash of leading but it doesn't seem to get worse over time and accuracy is excellent.

I am very suspect of the rifling in the barrel. It looks a little "rough" compared to my KKM barrel in my 21. The KKM barrel is smooth and shiny as can be.

[MtGun44]

My success has been with 356 120 TC, not the RN one. The base band on the 2R is
much thinner than the base band on the TC, might make the difference. I have had
excellent results with the TC, so while the 2R looks kinda OK, my experience is not
absolutely transferable. If you can't get this one to work, step back and try the
TC version.

Bill

[Sapper771]

Jailer,

I have read several places that the Lone Wolf barrels are roughly finished. I took some bore paste and lightly polished the barrel. I cant tell if it did any good or not. I guess the only way to tell if it is the barrel is to poney up and buy a different barrel.


Bill,

Seems like that 120gr TC bullet is rather popular. Heard its name mentioned in several forums. Since it is a Lee mold, I can afford to order one to try out. I wish Lee would make a 147gr mold. I may place an order for the 120gr TC later today. It may be what I need.......and I might as well order the .358" lube/size die. Do you know which RCBS/Lyman Top punch works best with the 120 TC bullet?

Thank you Gentlemen.

[Sapper771]

Disregard the top punch question, I did some digging and found one.

[9.3X62AL]

TC boolits seem to give more shooters fewer problems, and if I had to hazard a guess as to "why"......it would be more drive band engagement with the grooves and lands. TC boolits shoot A LOT better in my 9mm pistols, for darn sure. The Lee 122 TC is as good as the NEI or Lyman. I really like all of the Lee TC designs--9mm, 40/10, and 45. They have become my go-to autopistol castings.

Sapper--check your pistol barrel's throat diameter. Treat the 9mm and 40 S&W like rifle cartridges, since they run at rifle-like pressures, and size to throat dimensions.

MAKE CERTAIN that your expander spud isn't leaving case necks so tight that they are reducung sized boolit diameters.

DON"T get strident with taper-crimping, either--vigor here will reduce boolit diameter. So too will seating at the same time as taper-crimping--with cast boolits, seating and taper-crimping MUST be seperate die steps.

I use harder alloy in 9mm and 40 S&W than do a lot of shooters--92/6/2 in place of WW. Softer lubes, too--good old Javelina 50/50 NRA formula. 80% of my 9mm and 40 S&W cast loads run wth WW-231, and the goal is to make them functionally reliable and gentle-recoiling for Mrs. CZ. 1000-1050 FPS will run her SIG P-228 very well. I also put up some M-882 duplicators with the Lee castings--1225-1250 FPS, and use Herco or Blue Dot for those loads in my P-226. Zero leading, and accuracy meets/beats jacketed bullets.

[Sapper771]

9.3x62AL,

Sir, Thank You for your reply. You will have to excuse me, I am new at this.
Where is the throat of the barrel and How do I measure the throat's diameter?
I am guessing that the throat is somewhere around the leade?

I have not pulled a bullet yet to see if the case is swaging the bullet. I have read that some use a Lee 38 special neck sizing die? Is that the same thing as a "M" die? I have left my crimp at .378". Any less and the rounds wont chamber. I have a little linotype I can add to my melt, but I keep hearing that wheel weights are good to at least 1200-1400 FPS.

I placed yet another order with Midway USA. I have a Lee 120gr TC 6 cavity mold coming as well as a RCBS .358" lube/sizer die and appropriate top punch. I hope I can find a solution soon.

[MtGun44]

"M" dies are for use with rifle die sets which do not flare the case because the expander is
a ball pulled out from the inside on the decapping rod. So, if you try to push a boolit into
a straight case mouth, it gets shaved and pretty much ruined. A "M" die is Lyman's
solution for this problem, a slightly larger than jbullet expander button pushed into the case
AND a step on the end that expands the first ~ .010 to .030 (user adjusted) of the case
mouth to greater than the boolit diameter. The net result is a flare to start the boolit without
shaving and a bit less neck tension so the boolit isn't going to be sized down by the
case neck.

Personally, I have been using the Lee Universal Expander die and it works fine for me.

Get that 120 TC mold and use some Javelina (NRA 50-50) and .357 or maybe .358 and you
will likely have success. You are getting good advice on what to look for, and are close.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Throat in a pistol (or rifle) barrel = that area immediately in front of the chamber endpoint, usually unrifled. The "leade" begins at the point where rifling lands start to emerge. This may not be the strictest/most proper definition, but it's what I was taught by my mentors and is the descriptor I use. These are cut by the chambering reamer in most cases. I use the throat diameter in autopistol and rifle barrels to predicate my starting boolit diameter with a new-to-me firearm, and it almost always gives the best performance when compared to smaller or larger boolit dimensions.

M-dies and variants of same are appropriate for handgun calibers. They can be solid spuds, as in the long-established Lyman M-die series.......or can be hollowed out for use with a "Power Through Expander" Die, Lyman's "Multi-Charge Die Set". Mtn Gun's description of how they work is exact. I use the "38 AP" Multi-Charge hollowed spud with my cast and sized .357" boolits in 9mm, and can run 200-300 through the SIGs and a Ruger P-89 with zero leading. Clean-up is done with Hoppe's on a cloth patch. Kid you not.

9mm--10mm--and 40 S&W are NOT "beginner calibers" for reloaders or boolit casters. They act more like rifle calibers (pressure levels, fast twists, OAL criticality) than most pistol calibers, and the same care and precision needs to go into their prep and assembly to yield best results. Stay with it--all things excellent are both rare and difficult--you're almost there. :)

[Sapper771]

Bill,

Thank You. How crucial is it to have a M die or a universal expander die?
I am just using a standard RCBS neck sizing die that bells the case mouth.

[9.3X62AL]

"Neck SIZING die" is a term usually applied to sizing dies that only work (reduce diameter) of the neck or bullet-supporting area of the case, and leave the balance of the case walls unmodified. A neck EXPANDER die opens the case mouth slightly and sets the mouth flare, and occurs in a 2nd die after resizing. Hope that helps--we may be confusing one another with the tooling nomenclature.

Most reloading dies made these days "assume" the use of jacketed bullets. Their dimensions follow that assumption. E.g., my RCBS 9mm die set has an expander die spud that mics .352". This may be ideal for jacketed bullet prep, but it swaged down castings something fierce. The "38 AP" spud in the Lyman Multi-Charge set mics @ .3555", and works FAR better with my .357" sized castings.

[Sapper771]

9.3x62AL,

I do have a Lee 38 special die set. The powder through expander has a hollow expander plug in it. Would it be better for this purpose than my standard RCBS expander die?

I guess the only way to measure the throat is to slug from the breach and stop as it enters the rifling.


I really appreciate the help Guys.

[Bullwolf]

A couple more suggestions.

If you have an inexpensive kinetic (hammer style) bullet puller, try pulling one of your loaded rounds and then measuring the outside diameter of the boolit.

In some cases, using a Factory Crimp Die can also size down your oversize cast lead boolit.

The whole subject of the size right expander, using a universal expander die, or an M die, is to make sure you have flared, or expanded the brass large enough to seat a cast lead boolit without shaving lead off of it, or sizing it down smaller.

Most standard reloading die expander plugs are designed to reload and bell/flare for jacketed ammunition. Jacketed bullets are typically smaller, and more durable than cast boolits. The size of the default expander spuds in your die sets often reflect that, and they may be too small to ensure an adequate flare for an oversize cast lead boolit.

If you don't get enough case flare, while seating a cast lead boolit you can actually squeeze down your carefully sized projectile, and then you get leading again because your boolit fit is too small for the bore.

The easiest way to test and see if this is happening, is to just pull a loaded crimped round, and then measure the outside diameter of your pulled boolit. If your .357 boolit measures .355 after being pulled, you know where your problem is. Doing this will eliminate one more variable in the equation.

Figure standard 9mm dies are designed with the intention of a .355 diameter jacketed bullet being used, and 38/357dies are designed around .357 diameter jacketed bullets.

So it stands to reason that the .357 diameter expander plug would be larger, and give you a larger flare for your oversize cast lead bullets, but I would measure the expander plug in your 9mm and your 38/357 dies to be sure.

I would only try using a 38/357 expander plug for a bigger flare, after I pulled a loaded round, and verified that there is even a problem there. They make special tools like the universal (adjustable) case flare die too just for this sort of thing.

If you find out your pulled boolit is the correct size, you can simply cross that off the list as being a potential problem.

If your case flare is not the problem, I would suggest trying another powder.

I have had excellent results using a slower burning powder like Blue Dot, in troublesome 9mm applications where it seems like I am doing everything else right, but I am still having leading issues. Blue Dot can give you a lot more wiggle room than a faster burning powder for problems like excessive pressure, and leading, depending on the application.



- Bullwolf

[MtGun44]

Note that PISTOL die sets will have an expander that has a flare so will expand and flare, if
set deep enough.

Bottle necked RIFLE dies have the expander button on the decapping pin, and expand the
neck on the downstroke as the case is removed from the die. So, no expanding of the
front of the case is possible. This is the reason for the M-die, not needed for pistols, and
I don't think that they are even available in short enough dies to work with most pistol cases.

The .38 Spl expander might be helpful since you are using big boolits, may keep from
accidentally reducing the boolit diameter when seating into a case expanded with an expander
intended to hold .355 jbullets firmly in place. So the .38 Spl expander is a great idea. You are
thinking, now, not just reacting -- good!

Bill

[Sapper771]

I dont have that much experience with loading 38special. A friend bought some dies so I could load a few for him. I noticed that the powder thru expander die was different from the regular dies. I was getting that powder thru expander die adjusted and I noticed that the hollow expander plug was not belling the case mouth, it was actually opening up the neck and mouth. The 38 bullets just slid right in, but the crimp was needed to hold the bullets in securely. I probably expanded the case a little much, but they shot great.

I will probably need a universal expander, so it will be on my next purchase. I also need to pick up a bullet puller. I never really had a use for one up til now.

I removed that Thompson Bear lube from my lube sizer last night and put the BAC in. I will hopefully be up and running by this thursday, as long as my new mold shows up.

I was going to sit down and cast some 45 acp last night , but the sprue plate bolt on my mold broke off, now it has to go back to Lee. Just my luck.

[azjohn]

Read my #6 and # 17 posts back toward the beginning. I guess I have to bone up on my writing skills. Just kidding!!! Sometimes it is very hard to figure on a plan of action when so many suggestions are being thrown at you. Change 1 thing at a time and look at the end result before you change another facet of the process.

[MtGun44]

The normal expander for 9mm should be fine and will flare the neck if you set it deep
enough. You only want a slight flare so the boolit will start easily without shaving lead.
No need for universal expander for pistol rounds, it is for rifles. Pistol expanders have
the flare built in, just set it deeper with the top adjustment on the die.

If the .38 expander leaves no neck tension, do not use it. You want neck tension as the
primary restraint on the boolit, taper crimp as a secondary restraint.

Sprue plate bolt breaking is from sprues too cold when cut, stresses are too high due
to lead being too hard. Cut sooner.

Bill

[Sapper771]

Bill,

If I pull a bullet from a dummy round and find that the case has swaged the bullet down in diameter, what do you recommend to fix it? Is there a particular piece of equipment that has worked well for you?

Are you saying that the standard 9mm expander will aid in limiting the case from swaging the bullet down? Sorry, was just a little confused.

I probably was cutting the sprue just a tad late on that 45acp mold. When I cut it early, I was getting lead buildup on the sprue plate holes. I guess I need to get a rhythm down.

I am having withdrawls from not being able to cast any bullets. LOL

I have been seeing a lot of recommendations for Blue Dot powder for cast 9mm bullets. Said the slower burn rate helps to keep pressures down. Has anyone had luck with Blue Dot with cast 9mm, including the Lee 120gr TC bullet?

I want to Thank everyone for contributing to this thread. I really do appreciate the help.

[milprileb]

Sapper 771,

I eliminated my Lee Carbide crimp die as it was swaging my bullets which were undersized to begin with (.356) and contributing to leading . I use standard die set type taper crimp die now.
As for belling or expanding case mouth in 9mm , I got a Lee Pro measure and it does this belling almost like a M die and also throws powder charge into case. I got this adjusted fully down in press and its belling brass cases just enough for easy positioning of cast bullets for bullet seating.

I got no issue with putting in a M Die step and buying said die , if I need to but it looks like I don't need to. Certainly for 30 caliber rifle, the M die is mandatory for cast bullets.

[Sapper771]

Ok, I finally got around to loading up some dummy rounds and pulling the bullets. The results were......interesting.

Lee 125gr 2R bullet
Air cooled wheel weight alloy
sized to .357"
Sized in a RCBS 9mm sizing die
Pulled bullet diameter: 0.355"


For s###s and giggles, I took another piece of brass, sized in the 9mm sizing die, belled the mouth open to 0.390". Seated bullet. Pulled bullet diameter was 0.355".

I took another piece of brass and did all the above, except I belled the mouth of the case to 0.400". Pulled bullet diameter was 0.356".

Which lead me to this:

Lee 125gr 2R bullet
Air cooled wheel weight alloy
Sized to 0.357"
SIZED IN LEE 38 SPECIAL SIZING DIE
starline brass
Pulled bullet diameter: 0.357"

Interesting indeed! Now, are there any negatives to using this 38 special sizing die for this purpose?

I must admit, I feel kind of dumb for not sitting down and pulling bullets earlier. I guess I was too busy chasing the lube problem around. This has got me thinking though.....could this have been the problem all along, and not the lube?
The reason I ask is if the bullets were under sized all along, that means that there could have been a gap between the bullet and the bore. This gap could have cause the bullet lube to be over worked and then be depleted too soon, thus leading at the muzzle. Just my theory at the moment, I could be wrong.

[Sapper771]

I sat down and made some more dummy rounds to confirm the results from last night.
When I put the 38 special sizing die in my press and adjusted the die body down to where it almost touches the shell plate, the die will leave a ring around the lower portion of the case (due to the taper). Adjusting the die body out (away from the shell plate) and adjusting the decapping pin deeper stopped the ring on the case. The cases still have the beginning of the taper straightened, but not near the case head. Is this a problem?
The empty case pass drop test in my barrel. Pulled bullets measure 0.3565" - 0.357" from these cases.

When i measured the bullet near where the cases was crimped, I got 0.355". So I backed my crimp off to around 0.380". I loaded 50 live rounds to test. They also passed the drop test.

[Sapper771]

I pretty much suck at explaining things, i apologize. I will try to post some pictures later.

[MtGun44]

No problem. I understand what you are going thru, but a little bit confused.

I think the issue is NOT the sizing die, but the EXPANDING die. You need to use the
9mm sizing die and the .38 expanding die, so there is not excessive interference fit
between the case and the boolit. This is resizing the boolit with the case.

You have located the problem, but are on the wrong track for the solution. Size the
same, with 9mm die, EXPAND it more with a bigger expander from the .38 Spl die set.

Bill

[Sapper771]

Bill,

Got it. Your the man. Will work on that after I get off work.

Thank You.

[Sapper771]

Bill,

My RCBS 9mm expander die plug is marked for 9mm and 38 special. I put more flare on the case and ended up pulling bullets that were not swaged down by the case. I am guessing that case life will be shortened due to the aggressive expanding. Before, I would just bell the case open enough so that it would not shave the bullet when I seated it, but the bullet was getting swaged by the case. I adjusted the crimp down to 0.377", and the rounds passed drop test.


I did make some progress today. I shot 100 rounds today using 4.7gr of WSF under the 120gr TC boolit, air cooled wheel weights, sized to 0.358", seated to 1.100". Leading was in small spots, and minimal. Lube fouling brushed out with a nylon brush, leading brushed out with a copper bore brush. No chore bore needed. I like the TC boolits better than the RN.

I am back on track, Thanks to everyones help. Now I can focus on load development.

[Bullwolf]

Bill, If I pull a bullet from a dummy round and find that the case has swaged the bullet down in diameter, what do you recommend to fix it? Is there a particular piece of equipment that has worked well for you?


For the price its hard to beat the Lee universal Case expanding die. There is nothing wrong with the "M" dies either.




Are you saying that the standard 9mm expander will aid in limiting the case from swaging the bullet down? Sorry, was just a little confused.


If the standard 9mm expander is too small, it will cause the case to swage down the boolit.

If this is happening, you will want a larger expander.




I probably was cutting the sprue just a tad late on that 45acp mold. When I cut it early, I was getting lead buildup on the sprue plate holes. I guess I need to get a rhythm down.


You could try using some Bullplate lube on the sprue plate. Another alternative is to use some Polydimethylsiloxane (look for automotive Dielectric Grease containing this ingredient) and put a very small amount on a Q-tip and apply it on your sprue plate. This should let you cut a softer (warmer) sprue, a tad bit earlier without smearing lead on the plate.

There is a lot more information about sprue plate lube here on Cast Boolits:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=115857



I have been seeing a lot of recommendations for Blue Dot powder for cast 9mm bullets. Said the slower burn rate helps to keep pressures down. Has anyone had luck with Blue Dot with cast 9mm, including the Lee 120gr TC bullet?


I have had very good results using Blue Dot powder in 9mm, using both Lyman and Lee's 120 grain TC, and RN boolits. In normal lube, and tumble lube groove configurations.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3842
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3825



- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

Ok, I finally got around to loading up some dummy rounds and pulling the bullets. The results were......interesting.

Interesting indeed! Now, are there any negatives to using this 38 special sizing die for this purpose?

I must admit, I feel kind of dumb for not sitting down and pulling bullets earlier. I guess I was too busy chasing the lube problem around. This has got me thinking though.....could this have been the problem all along, and not the lube?
The reason I ask is if the bullets were under sized all along, that means that there could have been a gap between the bullet and the bore. This gap could have cause the bullet lube to be over worked and then be depleted too soon, thus leading at the muzzle. Just my theory at the moment, I could be wrong.


I cant really think of any negatives to using the 38 special sizing die that way. If it works, go with it.

Congratulations on narrowing down the problem.

Glad you got back on track, and sorry about replying to an earlier post Sapper771.

Happy Casting.

- Bullwolf

[Sapper771]

Bullwolf,

Thank you for the info.

The TC boolit in your pic, is that from the Lyman mold ? The lube groove is too big to be from a Lee. Your boolits are prettier than mine. Mine look a bit rustic. LOL

[MtGun44]

Keep trying stuff, seems like if you are flaring the case a whole lot, something is weird.
I just barely flare enough to not shave lead and boolit diam seems OK (I assume,
no problems so I never pulled one after seating).

I think you are very close. In #66 you didn't say what lube. What are you using now?

As long as the "leading" does not build up with more shots, brushes out easily and accy
stays good, it doesn't count.


Bill

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf,

Thank you for the info.

The TC boolit in your pic, is that from the Lyman mold ? The lube groove is too big to be from a Lee. Your boolits are prettier than mine. Mine look a bit rustic. LOL


You are most welcome.

And, yes the TC is from a Lyman Mold, a 2 hole 356402.

I also have a RN conventional lube groove Lyman mold, the 356242.

I can either tumble lube the Lyman 356402, or run it though a Lubrisizer. Since I have a Lyman Lubrisizer, the TC boolit normally gets lubed/sized through the Lyman, using Lyman Orange Magic boolit lube. They also seems to work just fine tumble lubed with Alox or 45-45-10, and shot as cast.

I prefer using the Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R myself. It is my favorite 9mm boolit. It feeds, and gets used the most in all of my different 9mm guns.

I typically will not bother to size the Lee boolits.

I just check each batch with a micrometer they normally drop around .357 depending on my alloy.

I tumble lube the Lee boolits once using 45-45-10 now, and I just load them up. It's a lot faster, and easier than using the Lyman sizer, and my accuracy seems to be better too when using the non sized Lee TL boolits, and I just shoot them as cast. (at the same size that they dropped from the mold)

I used to use Lee liquid Alox as a boolit lube, but I found that I prefer Recluse's 45-45-10 mix of Alox, and Johnson's Paste wax, diluted with mineral spirits.

If you are interested in the 45-45-10 lube, check out Recluse's " Tumble Lubing-- Made Easy & Mess-Free" thread. The instructions on how to make it are spot on, and very easy to understand. He even included step by step directions, along with pictures.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67654

It was pretty easy to cook up a batch, and once I made the 45-45-10, I fell in love with it. It is much easier to apply one thin coat of the lube. It lubricates better, it dries quicker, it's easier to handle (less tacky), and it also seems to smoke a bit less than straight Alox.




- Bullwolf

[Sapper771]

I do like the 45/45/10 lube better than the alox. I mixed some up, but didnt get the mix right. It still worked well.

I picked up a set of Lyman 9mm dies (3 die set). Inside, there is an expander die marked "Lyman Expander Die M-1". Is this the "M" die ? The expander plug has a removeable head. I got a 38 special head for the expander plug. Hopefully , it will be the fix.

[Bullwolf]

I picked up a set of Lyman 9mm dies (3 die set). Inside, there is an expander die marked "Lyman Expander Die M-1". Is this the "M" die ? The expander plug has a removeable head. I got a 38 special head for the expander plug. Hopefully , it will be the fix.

That sounds like the Lyman "M" die.

Check out this link, you might find the pistol plugs dimension table helpful.

The die pictures and description may help put things in perspective too.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

In your case, pay more attention to the pistol section than the rifles, since Lyman M dies do come in both pistol and rifle flavors.



- Bullwolf

[Sapper771]

Thats what I have. Looks like the 38P plug is exactly what I need too , since my boolits are sized to 0.358".

I am looking at buying a RCBS , Lyman, or Saeco mold. From what I am seeing so far, they can get up to three times more expensive than the Lee six cavity molds. People say they are worth it though. I do have my eye on the Lyman 147gr 9mm mold. Waiting to find a used one for sale at a decent price. It would be nice if Lee would make a 147gr TC mold specifically for the 9mm.

I am using BAC lube right now. The lube is a light red color while in stick form. When it gets pumped into the lube groove, it is pink.........I was thinking "wait til the guys see this.......pink lube on my itty bitty boolits.....how fitting." LOL. But hey, it is working so far. My only gripe about it is that it is sticky and gets all over the place. I am itching to try Carnuba Red after getting so many recommendations for it.

I have some boolits loaded up to shoot today. I will report the results.

[Shiloh]

I love it. The only 9mm boolit that drops large enough to shoot. I size at .358 and it is accurate and funtions flawlessly. At .358 it just touches the mold lines on the wide part of the boolit. I figure If I needed bigger, I could add more lino. No need though, works great as it is.

Shiloh

[BMWrider]

Just got back from the range testing my Lee 124 Gr LRN 2R in tumble lube and single lube groove versions. Both sized to .357", tumble lubed with 45/45/10 and loaded identically over Bullseye. Surprisingly, the TL version (on the left) was more accurate (30 rounds per target at ~25 yds).

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6898f4e-45b1-2c2e.jpg

[MtGun44]

Was the conventional one TLubed, too or conventionally lubed?

Looks like you have it working. Good news.

Bill

[BMWrider]

Both were tumble lubed (in the same container).

[Sapper771]

Ok, I shot 200 rounds yesterday and got even less leading than before, which could be classified as none.
Accuracy was acceptable.

I started using the Lyman M die this morning. Expanding the case out to where I need it is also leaving the case bloated out in the middle. The bloated cases will not pass drop test in my Lone Wolf barrel. I adjusted the M die down to where the cases will barely pass drop test. Pulled 0.358" bullets measure 0.3565". This diameter should work, but the M die isnt going deep enough to bell the case mouth. This resulted in bullets getting shaved as they were seated.

[Sapper771]

Using the RCBS 9mm expander die , I am having to expand the case mouth quite a bit to get desired results. Last time I measured, the bell at the mouth was 0.400" in diameter I know this cant be good for the case, but it is working quite well as far as the case not swaging the boolit . I think the RCBS expander plug tapers too quickly, resulting in proper expansion, but excessive belling of the case.

[Sapper771]

Just had an idea. The Lee 38 special powder through expander die is too short for me to use in my Hornady LnL press. The reason i say it is too short is because the die's expander plug floats within the die. The expander plug's expander nub is short, which is perfect for the 9mm. Why not stick a spacer on top of the expander plug so it does not float, but stays fixed at the bottom most portion of the die.

I found a polymer spacer that would fit inside the expander die, then I screwed the powder through nut back on top of the spacer. I made 5 dummy rounds and then pulled the boolits. All were between 0.357" and 0.358".
If the rounds show to feed , fire, and eject with no leading, then this may be the fix.

[CPL Lou]

I too use the RCBS 9mm dies for my reloading. What I have done is I give my cases a pass using the 9mm expander die, to bell the case mouths. Then I use my 38 Special expander (a Lyman that I have) just deep enough to clear the bases of my bullets.
This adds an extra step, but pays off at the range (and with clean up !).

Hope this helps.

[Dannix]

I started using the Lyman M die this morning. Expanding the case out to where I need it is also leaving the case bloated out in the middle. The bloated cases will not pass drop test in my Lone Wolf barrel. I adjusted the M die down to where the cases will barely pass drop test. Pulled 0.358" bullets measure 0.3565". This diameter should work, but the M die isnt going deep enough to bell the case mouth. This resulted in bullets getting shaved as they were seated.
First off, awesome to see you're on track, and welcome to the forum. [smilie=s:

You're right on the money using your barrel as a case gauge. Good call.

From a general point of view, the softer the alloy, the more concern there is that the brass may swag down the boolit. So for a hard alloy, only case flaring is need. But for softer alloy, some case expansion could be needed. At what point is it that an boolit alloy may be soft enough such that the brass swagging it down may be a concern? I have no idea.


The M die's plug should ideally go as deep as the boolit, as the M's plug expands the case (ideally up to but not beyond the depth the boolit is seated to) and (if set deeply enough) flares the case. The Lee "Universal Expander Die" ... well, actually, it only flares. Yeah, got to love confusing lingo.

My impression is many of 9mm shooters don't crimp at all, but only de-flare. So if you end up with an crimpless hourglass-looking boolit, no worries. Below is a pic from one helpful member when I was looking into the ins-and-outs of 9mm. (Bill aka MtGun44 was another one; hear ye him.) The bottom part of the "hourglass" is present because this particular member does not screw his Full Length Sizer die all the way down to the shellholder. I have found myself doing this as well. The idea is saving the brass from unnecessary excessive wear and tear.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7987/img0664t.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7987/img0664t.jpg)


One addtional note concerning crimping: The softer the alloy, the more likely the crimp with scrape the boolit. E.g. from this (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89435) thread:


First the crimp: It's very likely that you aren't generating enough pressure ( or the alloy is to soft) to straighten out the crimp when the round is fired. The result is the crimp shaves the boolit as it exits the case making it undersized and causing some flame cutting.


There's a great article about the M die plug design somewhere...I think it's around here, but I can't find it right now. I'll keep digging for you. Also note that some of the forum members here can make a bespoke M die plug for you if you need something bespoke.
Edit: M Provements On Lymans M Die (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/39)


Oh, one more point, though I think it's been touched on already: There are two Lee Factory Crimp dies -- one for straight/taper cases and one for bottleneck cases. There's has been much woe concerning the Lee Factory Crimp die for straight/taper cases for boolit shooters as it swags down the round.

[Sapper771]

Dannix,

Thank you for the info.

I Think that I will try adjusting the sizing die out first.

I will read the M die article. The 38 spl M die expander plug would work, but it is too long. I thought about asking my friend to shorten it for me, but i havent yet.