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View Full Version : Very first time casting boolits today! What fun!!!



L1A1Rocker
05-29-2011, 02:11 PM
So, after about 5 months of getting my stuff together (smelter, hot plate, molds, sizer, etc) and doing lots of reading hear on this forum and the latest Lyman cast boolit book, I finally dropped some lead today for the first time. Two days ago I scrubbed out and boiled out two of Miha's molds - the 359640PB-HP 45 2.1 Design and the .44 mag / 444 marlin HP mold that I had Eric remove the gas check on. I then used the supplied mold lube to lube the sprue plate, top of mold, and alignment pins. I applied with a q-tip and then went back over it with a dry q-tip to remove excess.

Today I got everything set up on a table out in the shop and tried this casting thing out. Put the two molds on a Harbor Freight hot plate with a circular saw blade on it and set it to medium high. Then I tossed in about 12 pounds of lead ingots (1/2 WW and 1/2 roofing lead) and set the thermostat to 750 on the RCBS bottom pore (100 bucks off ebay).

After the led was melted I lowered my thermometer into the lead and discovered about a 50 degree difference between the thermometer and the smelter's thermostat. I went with what the thermometer said and adjusted the temp to around 825 degrees. Then I smelted with some paraffin wax and realized my first mistake. I used a bit much and the flame up really licked the bottom of my thermometer. Scared me that I might have really messed up but rather than panic and do something stupid I rode it out. Turned out to be fine. Oops, leason learned on that one. Stirred everything in with a wooden dowl.

Picked up the .44 mold and gave it a try. I stuttered the first poor but got the next one right. After throwing two castings the boolits were near perfect! Started to get a little frost after a while and I paused a bit to let the mold cool down and back to it.

Picked up the .38/.357 mold and gave it a try. First poor was a bit strange. It took almost a minute for the sprue to harden. I guess I had the hot plate a bit hot. The boolits came out very frosty. Paused a bit to let the mold cool down and tried again. PERFECT boolits from then on!

One big question and a bit of advise please. After a few castings the sprue plate became harder and harder to open (on both molds). I have a small fan blowing on the top of the sprue just after casting to help harden it, I give a 3 Mississippi count and then cut the sprue. What do Ya'll think is making the sprue cut get harder and harder as I go? I'm thinking I may be waiting too long to cut it. . .

All and all a GREAT casting session.

Jailer
05-29-2011, 02:32 PM
Cut the sprue as soon as it hardens. Watch the base and if it smears wait just a tad longer.

Moisten a Q-tip with sprue lube and press it against the sprue plate bolt on top of the sprue plate and from the side of the sprue plate. The lube will migrate into the pivot and allow it to move more freely.

mooman76
05-29-2011, 02:40 PM
Sounds like you're casting with your lead too hot. You shouldn't have to cast that hot but in saying that sometimes you have to cast hot depending on what the mould wants. You may have the sprue plate too tight to start with. After the mould heats up sometimes because of heat expantion, they get harder to open. You can check this easy enough. Try opening it after it gets heated up with no lead to see if it's still hard and if you turn the heat down abit you might find it's fine anyway. I like to start out a little hot, it helps the mould get up to temp and then I slowly adjust the heat down to a normal level. This you learn through practice and experience. It should take only a few second (3-5) too cool and if it cools too fast turn the heat up, if it takes too long turn it down. Glad you liked your first casting experience.

geargnasher
05-29-2011, 02:45 PM
Oh, boy, another addict! Just like crack, one time and you're hooked for life, welcome to the madness!

I think you need to cast faster to keep your mould temperature up, you did good by "overheating" at first and taking a long time for the sprue to solidify and getting a hyper-frosted boolit, now you know what "too hot" is and that's something most beginners don't understand and they never get them hot enough. Preheating is good, as you learned it doesn't take long for the mould to cool down to good casting temperture. The thing is, you maintain mould temperature by casting pace, and when you get the boolits casting the way you want them, you will need to speed up or use less fan to keep the mould at that temp. Each mould is different, so only experience and close observation of the time it takes for the sprue to harden will tell how fast you need to cast. Usually three to four pours a minute keeps my moulds at what I think is the ideal temp, and I like to run my moulds hot enough to keep a nice, even, satin look to the boolits (NOT heavy frost, just a little haze that wipes off with a rag and leaves a shiny boolit.).

Some folks like to run a slightly cooler mould than I do and get shiny boolits with wheel weights, but I find it's a very fine line to getting nice, sharp edges and maintaining shiny, plus it slows things down quite a bit as the mould tend to heat up pretty fast. To each their own.

Remember that alloy temperature doesn't determine boolit quality as much as mould temperature does, I'd try to keep the alloy temperature fairly cool and keep the mould hot by casting faster for best results. Opinions differ on this, but the chemistry of WW alloy works better for lots of reasons if you run it just about a hundred degrees above molten.

Take Jailer's advice, run your mould hot enough that the sprue takes 3-6 seconds to just barely solidify, and cut your sprue while it's still soft enough to do with a gloved thumb or push of a stick, don't let it fully solidify so you have to whack it open with a mallet. This will help you keep the mould hot and reduce wear and tear on your hands and the mould. If you get little puckered craters right in the middle of your boolit bases you're doing fine.

Gear

gray wolf
05-29-2011, 02:49 PM
Nice story and a nice summary of what transpired.
Once you get the correct pre heat temp. for you mold I think you will find that your lead temp.
was a little on the warm side, like almost 200 * to hot.
There are many that may disagree and many that will agree.
For myself I get very good results if I take note of the slush temp of my metal, for me with an alloy similar to yours I find it goes slushy at about 450*-475*
and is full liquid at about 550* and ready to cast at 625* 650* I do add 2% Tin.
There are many ways to pre heat the mold and your way is just dandy and should do well for you.
But my point is this: With the metal 100*-150* over melt it should produce good bullets if the mold is at and kept at the proper temp. I really see no need to cast at 800*+ unless there is a specific need and casting experience say's to do it. There is also a chance to cook out some of the goodies in the alloy with to hot a temp.
When you find the sweet spot you can control mold temp. to a degree with the size of the sprue puddle. If things get a little hot cast a smaller sprue, if they chill up on you cast a little bigger sprue. There is a temp window for the mold and if you are close to it controlling it can be easy. Also a second or two on a wet sponge or rag can help cool the mold.
I would also not jump from one mold to another while learning. But it is easy to understand wanting to try all your nice new molds ( toys )
Without seeing your bullets it's difficult to say any more but it sounds like you are getting off to a nice start. Stay safe and enjoy the hobby.

geargnasher
05-29-2011, 03:01 PM
+1 GW, I'd almost recommend a casting thermometer too at this point, it's a great tool to learn the characteristics of boolit metals, and also for checking composition by the phase change temperatures and the duration of the slush point. The dial on the RCBS pot just isn't close enough, although it gives some idea at least.

750 is indeed too hot IMO, 650 should be about perfect for the alloy mentioned.

Gear

L1A1Rocker
05-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Thanks for the input folks. I had read many here say that you should run the smelt hot for the Miha hollow point molds. I'll try backing off some and see how it goes. I'll also take the other suggestions offered. That IS why I'm here afterall. . .


A big THANK YOU to you all and the people running/owning this site!


PS, I am running a thermometer.

geargnasher
05-29-2011, 04:24 PM
Rocker, you are right about those big mould blocks needing a little hotter alloy sometimes, especially brass moulds, but a little hotter, not 750 degrees. Maybe 675-700 or so, you will have to play with it. Just remember mould temp determines boolit quality, not pot temp. The only reason to run the alloy a little hotter with heavy or brass moulds is it helps put a little more heat in the mould. With one big exception, the alloy doesn't care, it's just as liquid at 600 as it is at 800. The exception is when you get near 750 with any alloy containing tin, you destroy the effectiveness of tin as a surface anti-oxidant, and problems with tin oxide patches and dross inclusions arise, as well as the oxidation rate of the surface of the alloy in the pot starts to go into overdrive. If you run your pot cooler, once you flux and skim, the surface should stay a light satin with little excess skinning for an hour or more. If you run it at 750 or 800 it will form lots of tin and animony-rich oxide dross on top, which alters the alloy composition slightly.

Gear

zomby woof
05-29-2011, 05:41 PM
Stop right now, sell all your lead and equipment. You will not save money, you will not shoot more. Spend all your extra time doing something more productive. You will stay up at night thinking you don't have enough lead and need to find more. You will end up with several custom molds along with the LEE molds you used to start. Keep your sanity, you've been warned.

Having said all that, welcome to the insanity.

mpmarty
05-29-2011, 05:51 PM
Inasmuch as you already have a thermometer I'd suggest cutting back to 700* or less for most of your casting. Try it and you may find it all comes together for you.

L1A1Rocker
05-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Ok, now I've got some pics.

Here's my little set up on the bench

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0590.jpg?t=1306720177

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0595.jpg

Here some pics of the first casting session today:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0591.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0592.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0593.jpg


After coming in and reading some of the responces I went back out and cast up some more .44s with lower heat. Went much smoother.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0596.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/HPIM0598.jpg

That was it for today. Tomarrow I'll knock out some more, do an oven heat treat (unless ya'll think that 50/50 WW to roofing lead is OK for the 300gr .44 at 8 or 900 fps) with water quench and finish up with a run through the lubrasizer.

Thanks again folks!!!

geargnasher
05-29-2011, 10:19 PM
Don't heat treat those nice hollow points!!! Wait at least a week before loading them and they will be perfect for the application. In fact I would expect 1000 fps out of a revolver wouldn't give you any trouble at all even with the plain-base, but plenty of trouble for anything downrange. 50/50 air-cooled alloy and a nice, large-caliber hollow point at 900-1,000 fps is a formula for quite impressive expansion and weight retention, even water-dropped like you did they should stay together pretty well.

Nice job on the castings, I see the cooler alloy worked out for you. I wish my first couple of sessions years ago had gone anywhere NEAR as well as yours have.

Gear

bxchef29
05-29-2011, 10:33 PM
nice boolits i wanted a hp mold for 45 acp hows the expansion on them

mpbarry1
05-29-2011, 10:49 PM
Thanks for sharing Rocker! I am still collecting stuff. Great job! I'll save this for my continuing education. :)

reloader28
05-29-2011, 11:50 PM
Your screwed now. You should have never started.
Now your going to spend as much time and money as possible collecting lead and molds.
It is VERY, VERY addictive.:lovebooli

+1 on lubing the sprue cutter screw. Makes it work very smooth, but you can get too much in a hurry so use in very small amounts.[smilie=b:

harvester
05-30-2011, 09:44 AM
Finished, toast, ruined, your done. Wait till you start buying molds because you found a deal and then have to buy a gun for that mold. hahaha you can really save money that way...............

cbrick
05-30-2011, 10:37 AM
Rocker,

Outstanding first casting session. Like Gear said, my first attempts 30 some years ago didn't turn out nearly as well. Good thing there weren't digital cameras back then, I might have been tempted to take a picture and I wouldn't want anyone to see what they looked like.

A couple of things your first post (in this thread) didn't mention. 1> What is it about tin that you dislike so much? 825 degrees? 2> If your going to go to the trouble of fluxing why is it you don't want to accomplish all three of the things that need to be accomplished by fluxing? Also, why do you want to add the gunk to your casting pot? Go back to Glen's book and re-read chapter 4 - Fluxing, you'll see exactly what I mean.

Ok. that's putting in fairly strong terms but I wanted you to stop and think.

It was a great first casting session and it will only get better and more and more addictive from here. I really like the good bases, that's important.

Rick

MtGun44
05-30-2011, 03:06 PM
Looks great, use bullplate lube on the sprue plate and you will keep it clean and not gall
and bind on the top of the mold. Hot plate is great, thermo is harmless overkill.

Great start!

Bill

bingo
06-01-2011, 08:56 PM
welcome to the art of boolit making. I got a mihec mold back in the day when he was just starting. that 45 hp is a piece of art. I started on $15 single cav. rifle molds by lee. read up lementing. once you fine tune the mold(if needed) they will service you well, if not they will fix it. Now the rest of the story.

your boolits look great. i noticed your hammer handle. I went thru several till i figured out (with alittle help from these grest folks) that a little bull sprue plate lube (avail from vender sponsor) works great. also as stated you do not have to wait 60 sec after the sprue hardens unless you want to support your local hardware store. Let it harrden and wack it , i have not broke a sprue plate yet.

Enjoy

Mark

Ugluk
06-01-2011, 09:24 PM
That's cheating! All the goodies and knowledge from the get go.. No wonder you got perfect boolits from the start.
Now you're spoiled, Miha-molds for firsts..
I started out with two 2-cav tl molds, a pot on a camping stove and a soup ladle..
Needless to say, mine weren't as pretty as yours but just as rewarding.

Well done!

L1A1Rocker
06-01-2011, 09:32 PM
Hey folks, thanks for all the responces. I finally found some pewter at a resale shop yesterday!!! I picked up a couple of serving trays that weighed a total of 3.5 pounds for around 25 dollars. So now I can start adding in some tin to the mix.

Regarding the little hammer handle. I'm only using that to gently tap the hollow point pins out of the block as my gloves are too thick to be able to get in there and do it with my finger. Please don't anyone think I'm striking the sprue plate or the blocks in any form or fashion. I'd never do that to one of these beautiful molds.:)

I've put 100 boolits away to air harden and the rest I did a heat treat in the oven and water quenched with ice water and a liquid soap mixed in.

Today I did some load development. As I figured, I need to load to the deepest crimp groove to work in the rotary magazine used in the Ruger 96-44. This also called for cutting way back on the powder charge. After trying 5 different powder charges of 2400 I finally settled on 12 grains loaded to 1.613 OAL giving me right at 900 fps out of a ruger Readhawk.

MtGun44
06-02-2011, 03:17 PM
How about we restrict the sales of Miha's molds to at least third mold. . . . . . . . :bigsmyl2:

Not fair that all these wet behind the ears new guys get SO MUCH better equipment and
info than I had 35 yrs ago! :kidding:

You are doing great, sometimes overthinking this a bit, but the results look really
good and the biggest cool thing is YOU ARE HAVING A GREAT TIME! :drinks:

Bill

geargnasher
06-03-2011, 12:21 AM
Ain't that the truth, Bill! I've said it before, when a member was showing a newbie friend of his the ropes, and the fellow showed up for class with a brand-new Miha mould, that he should confiscate that mould until such time that the newbie demonstrated competence with a well-worn two-banger Lee! I started with Lee and one or two of the old, used-to-be-good Lyman moulds, I sure appreciate the fine, custom, lathe-bored moulds available today.

I also appreciate the Vernier scale and long division, as well as a hard-copy of the trig tables.

Gear

Crash_Corrigan
06-03-2011, 04:30 AM
Ya had it too easy. I wish my first castings were as nice as yours.

I had a Lee six banger and a Coleman camp stove and a garage sale cast iron pot to work with. My alloy was floor sweepings from a radiator shop. Lotsa tin but a beast to melt into ingots.

Now maybe $20,000 later I do much better at it. I have even ventured into the horror world of the Holy Black and paper patching boolits.

There is so much to learn...keep at it.

L1A1Rocker
06-03-2011, 10:32 AM
I know you folks are just busten my chops. It has taken me more that five months to gather the things I needed to do this right. I bought used where I could (to save money) but the biggest thing I did was listen to the sage advise posted on this forum. Buy good equipment, use it correctly, and you will get good results. Rather than fight with poor off the shelf molds I found that Miha just happened to be running molds of which I would be needing. So, as they came available, I bought them. I'm glad I did, they are great.

Again, Thank all you folks that have posted such great information on this forum - and thanks for the forum!!!

Jailer
06-03-2011, 11:40 AM
Ain't that the truth, Bill! I've said it before, when a member was showing a newbie friend of his the ropes, and the fellow showed up for class with a brand-new Miha mould, that he should confiscate that mould until such time that the newbie demonstrated competence with a well-worn two-banger Lee! I started with Lee and one or two of the old, used-to-be-good Lyman moulds, I sure appreciate the fine, custom, lathe-bored moulds available today.

I also appreciate the Vernier scale and long division, as well as a hard-copy of the trig tables.

Gear

Funny you should mention that. This is exactly what I did last weekend.

A friend of mine has been wanting to get into casting for his 9mm and wanted one of Miha's penta HP molds. So I got one for him when they came in stock and I spent last Saturday teaching him to cast on a brass cramer style HP mold. He did great and within a few casts he was dropping perfect boolits. What a way to start.