8x58R Danish

[Harv33]

I have a 8x58R Carl Gustaf roller, 8x58R cal. Supposedly .323 diam bullet. I slugged the bore and breech at bore=.326 and Breech=.327. What size cast bullet should I go for ?.. I don't see any cast bullets for sale in that or near that diameter. The only mould I see that is close to that is LEE .329. If that is so, then I have an idea I could use a 8x56R Hungarian .329 expander then crimp ??. Otherwise trying to just flare from .323 to .329 would be a bit much and not aligned very well ??. Other choice is to use a LEE collet sizer, flare it for bullet fit then light crimp ??
Anyway,, I'd appreciate any suggestions - help !! Thanks..

[Donor8x56r]

I'll be getting this rifle sometime soon ,so I'm interested in answers as well.

I think .329 Lee would be just fine.One thing I can suggest is ordering custom collet die set from Lee.

You will have to send then 2 fired cases and boolit you are using.

Get trimmer from them while you are at it.

This set will come with seating die.

[shooter93]

Accurate Molds makes one of molds so you can get any diameter you need and Buckshot here at the sight can make you a "button" for a Lyman m-die in any diameter. Both guys are reasonably priced, do good work and you can have what you need for a good fit.

[jerry_from_ct]

I have a 8x58R Carl Gustaf roller, 8x58R cal. Supposedly .323 diam bullet. I slugged the bore and breech at bore=.326 and Breech=.327. What size cast bullet should I go for ?.. I don't see any cast bullets for sale in that or near that diameter. The only mould I see that is close to that is LEE .329. If that is so, then I have an idea I could use a 8x56R Hungarian .329 expander then crimp ??. Otherwise trying to just flare from .323 to .329 would be a bit much and not aligned very well ??. Other choice is to use a LEE collet sizer, flare it for bullet fit then light crimp ??
Anyway,, I'd appreciate any suggestions - help !! Thanks..

What load data are you using, I can relate 8x50r here, nephew has a 8x56r, one's .323 other is .329.

[dromia]

Try a search on Cast Boolits, plenty of past discussion.

E.g. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22807

[Harv33]

Thank you for your replies fellow's, and I'm sorry about being so late getting back on this !!. Good tips and info to get this roller rolling..
I decided to take the rather painless way through this maze.. I ordered .322 8x58R brass from Buff. Arms., a .329 LEE mould, lube and sizer. A .338 RCBS stem, decap, tapered sizer. My big brain storm is to anneal the brass, trim the 338 RCBS sizer to .326 -7. Size the cases and the .329 cast bullets should fit ok.
I Haven't made up a load yet but figured I'd start with Herr Dutchman's valued advise, i.e. pressure, etc. 12 or 13 gr Unique.
This is certainly a challenge but very interesting. Hopefully I'll be able to bring this great episode up again when I've had some progress..
Thanks again,, This is a great forum !! :D

[kodiak1]

Harv33
What brass are you using for a donar for this cartridge?
I have looked at a few of those rollers and always wondered what brass they used.

Ken.

[Dutchman]

If you haven't read this page do yourself a favor and read it through slowly:::::

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/GB8x58RD.html

The Buffalo Arms brass is very nice. It's also very brittle. They stretch .45-70 cases so the brass gets overworked. Annealing is mandatory.

I just cast a bunch of boolits from the Lee 8mm Maximum and guess what...... they're too big for 8x57 Mauser. The nose is too big to even seat. I ran them through a .325" sizer so I'm thinking they drop from the mold larger than .325". They weigh 252 grs as I recall.

I currently have a broken case neck stuck in my m/1889 rolling block from fire forming 8x56 Hungarian brass. I'm real unhappy about it because so far I haven't been able to get it unstuck. I have to play with a broken shell extractor to see if I can snag the mouth and get it out. I'm not exactly sure what I did that caused this except maybe I oiled the neck and shoulder and should've oiled only the case body when fire forming. Worse case scenario is I'll loose the barrel. I'm real unhappy about that because that sucker put 10 rds into ONE hole at 50 yds.

My m/1889 slugs at .324". I use Lyman 323470, RCBS 170 gr flat nose (.32 Winchester Special) .323". I've shot a few Lyman 323471 but not enough to offer an opinion. I thought the 8mm Maximum would work in it but I may never know..

I would suggest slugging a 2nd time. Make sure you oil the bore first to facilitate the snug slug a nice journey through the bore. It doesn't hurt to double check.

Correct nomenclature: 8x58R Danish or 8x58RD.

Do not extrapolate load data from any source except that used by another handloader for this same caliber in this same application. These are very old guns and need to be given lots of respect. The above linked page is the best information you'll find on the subject anywhere in the world by any one.

The 170 gr flat nose .323" bullet and 20.5 grs 2400 was a good load. Not heavy, just right. Ten and twelve grains Unique is also a nice load but the 2400 load has more authority.

Dutch

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

CH4D makes the dies, save time and money and just order from them.

I have one of these Danes as well. I would strongly suggest checking with NOE to see if Swede has any of either of the two moulds he has produced left over.

You can make brass from the 45-90 cases Starline offers. I needed three steps to get to the fireforming stage with mine. Ran it a ways into a 40-65 FL die, then a 38-56, then a 33 WCF gently with Imperial wax, then the FL die I got from CH4D.

REMEMBER: THESE ARE KRAGS, NOT 98 MAUSERS!!

Rich

[Dutchman]

REMEMBER: THESE ARE KRAGS, NOT 98 MAUSERS!!

Rich

This thread is about Swedish rolling blocks... not Krags.

As for using Starline .45-90 cases to form 8x58RD. I've not done it myself but have it on good authority that these cases are not of sufficient construction for conversion.

Dutch

[Chicken Thief]

@ Dutchman

Here's a complete list of 8x58RD cartridges produced by the Danish Arsenal, with all spec's. If you need translation please ask!

http://s295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Krag%20Jorgensen/

[Dutchman]

Danish loaded 8x58RD intended for the m/1889 Krag is too HOT for Swedish m/1889 rolling blocks. It's important to understand for shooters of the Swedish rolling block that there are TWO levels of pressure for the 8x58RD cartridge. The Swedish rolling block requires a much lower chamber pressure than the m/1889 Krag. If there is any question about why this is please bring it up and ask.

Mr.Dane: After many years of reading [old] Dutch doing genealogy research and the years staring at Swedish military texts I can actually read Danish firearms technical terms pretty good. They aren't much different from Swedish. Ja Ja, dank u zeer :).

Translated from the Norwegian Ladeboken (loadbook):

[quote translation]

The Danish military cartridge of 1889 is not a common
sight today. The Danish Krag Jörgensen rifle is rarely
used today, but the cartridge was chambered also in
Danish, Swedish and Norwegian Remington rolling block
rifles, and these are stumbled upon fairly regularly. Some
people like to shoot these old rifles, so therefore we
have included loading data for it.

Originally the cartridge was loaded with a compressed
black powder charge, awaiting the final development of
the smokeless powders. The first military cartridge had
a 14,7 gram (226 grain) roundnose bullet, loaded to a
(velocity) of about 485 meters/second (1,591 feet per second).
In later smokeless loads the velocity was increased to 620 m/s
(2,034 feet per second) using the same bullet.

In 1908 the Danes went over to the so called "spidsskarp",
a cartridge loaded with a 12,7 g (196 grain) spitzer bullet where
the velocity was a claimed 750 m/s (2,460 feet per second).
The experience with this cartridge was, however, that it was too
powerful for the rolling block rifles, and a reduced charge load
using the Dane bullet was developed for these rifles.

Until the 1960's, Norma made a factory load in 8x58RD
using a 12,7 g (196 grain) soft point and a claimed velocity
of 680 m/s (2,234 feet per second) ,with respect due to the many
rolling block rifles being used for hunting in Sweden. Norma also
made a batch of M1908 spidsskarp for Denmark, using these
same figures.

The loads presented here are being held to the same
levels, and can be used in both Krag-Jörgensen and
rolling block rifles. Original cases uses Berdan primers,
but new boxer primed cases are available from Bertram.
Loading dies are available from RCBS.
[end translation]

[Harv33]

Yep, Herr Dutchman. I have read the booty info and I'm heeding all the necessary safety suggestions as mentioned before. I appreciate all the work, effort, time and etc all you fellows have put into this sort of project. It sure eliminates a lot of cussing that I'm sure you all have been through to develop these pages.
I'll double check all the load data before I load up. I haven't seen a mention of a filler whaen using a scant powder load like 13gr Unique ??.
Thanks.. Harv.

[Dutchman]

Yep, Herr Dutchman. I have read the booty info and I'm heeding all the necessary safety suggestions as mentioned before. I appreciate all the work, effort, time and etc all you fellows have put into this sort of project. It sure eliminates a lot of cussing that I'm sure you all have been through to develop these pages.
I'll double check all the load data before I load up. I haven't seen a mention of a filler whaen using a scant powder load like 13gr Unique ??.
Thanks.. Harv.

No filler with Unique. Not needed.

The rule of thumb: If it isn't mentioned, it didn't happen. Filler would certainly be mentioned if it was used. I've seen a load of 4 grs used in a rifle but the bullet didn't make it out of the bore. I think with 6 grs it did but barely. Eight and 10 grains is no problem. I use 10.5 grs in the 6.5x55 with a 140 gr. bullet and it makes 1,500 fps. And I've used 10.5 grs (Lee dipper) in the 8x58RD with excellent accuracy but I've not chrono'd that load yet.

I've also started using 700X and gotten excellent accuracy. It's very close to the same characteristics of Unique. Dual purpose cast rifle and standard handgun powder. I don't think I've ever used, nor would use, a faster powder than these two in a cast bullet rifle load.

Dutch

[Harv33]

Thanks again !!:grin:

[Harv33]

I've slugged my 8x58RD twice now and still come out .326 bore,, .327 chamber end. A good 1/2" profile of the lands, grooves so I know it is correct. I'm wondering why most of you lucky fellows barrels slug out at .322 - 4.
Were the Swede hitting the Aquavit too often to have such a range of diameters ?.
Thanks.

[Chicken Thief]

I think it is/was a money issue!

A barrel reamed on the large side can still be cut rifled and thus ends on the large side, but in a war who is going to complain about poor acurracy?

Today we're cramming grouping/acurracy out of theese old smokepoles that was but a wery wet dream for the armores at the time.

[Dutchman]

50 yards. 14 shots, 10 shots in one hole. This rifle slugs .324".

.324" to .327" is only .003". The average human hair is .0025" to .003". I'd suggest the Lee mold for the 8x56R Austrian Mannlicher straight-pull rifle. Drop at about .329". The Lee 8mm Maximum drops at .326". There's two good possibilities for your RB.

The Swedish were a nation of riflemen. Much like the Swiss in that regard. Their rifles were built to be accurate and they are accurate. There is a learning curve to the m/1889 rolling block as there is to every vintage rifle. The Swedes were very competitive in shooting matches. Rifles that couldn't cut the mustard were tomato stakes. This is even true of the m/1867 rolling blocks. Those suckers can shoot clover leafs @ 100 m. with good loads.

http://images44.fotki.com/v1581/photos/4/28344/7937087/8x58RD_165_12_Uniq-vi.jpg

http://images52.fotki.com/v1565/photos/4/28344/7937087/RB02-vi.jpg

http://images52.fotki.com/v1565/photos/4/28344/7937087/RB01-vi.jpg

[Harv33]

Were you useing the reformed Hungarian 8x56R brass ?? or ?

The Hungarian brass is very short compared to the 8x58RD
Is the 8x56R Hungarian the same as the 8x56R Kropatschek ?
I see Ammo Guide in the master list has the 8x56R Kropatschek but not the Hungarian !!.
Thanks for the help.
P.S. Thumbs up for that Swede roller,, Happy target !!
P.P.S. I know you don't like that old clunker so you should send me that forearm !!.. ;-)

[Harv33]

Has anyone tried reforming the 8x57JRS for the 8x58RD :veryconfu

[Rollers]

I have a very nice Danish 8X58R that I would like some. Good low pressure load info. The gun was
Reworked in 1897 bbythestammp on it. All help would be appreciated thanks. Rollers

[Reverend Al]

I currently have a broken case neck stuck in my m/1889 rolling block from fire forming 8x56 Hungarian brass. I'm real unhappy about it because so far I haven't been able to get it unstuck. I have to play with a broken shell extractor to see if I can snag the mouth and get it out. I'm not exactly sure what I did that caused this except maybe I oiled the neck and shoulder and should've oiled only the case body when fire forming. Worse case scenario is I'll loose the barrel. I'm real unhappy about that because that sucker put 10 rds into ONE hole at 50 yds.

If you still haven't managed to remove your stuck case body you might try a method I've used a few times to remove stubborn cases that have "lost their heads" so to speak. I score the inside of the brass case body (carefully) and then put a plug in the throat just ahead of the stuck case. I melt and pour some Cerrosafe into the stuck case and let it cool and set. Then I use a close fitting brass rod run down from the muzzle to tap the case body out of the chamber. I've used the same method to successfully remove stuck case bodies from sizing dies that have had their case heads torn off since at that point a conventional RCBS stuck case remover just isn't an option any longer. Give this a try and you should be able to finally remove the case and save that fine shooting barrel ...

[17nut]

I have a very nice Danish 8X58R that I would like some. Good low pressure load info. The gun was
Reworked in 1897 bbythestammp on it. All help would be appreciated thanks. Rollers

And is that rifle a Krag or a Rolling Block?

The Krag is good for 2600bar~37.3kpsi but the Rollers only for 1600bar~23.2kpsi
Anf what bullet would you like to use? Loads kinda dependes on it.

[ascast]

If you still haven't managed to remove your stuck case body you might try a method I've used a few times to remove stubborn cases that have "lost their heads" so to speak. I score the inside of the brass case body (carefully) and then put a plug in the throat just ahead of the stuck case. I melt and pour some Cerrosafe into the stuck case and let it cool and set. Then I use a close fitting brass rod run down from the muzzle to tap the case body out of the chamber. I've used the same method to successfully remove stuck case bodies from sizing dies that have had their case heads torn off since at that point a conventional RCBS stuck case remover just isn't an option any longer. Give this a try and you should be able to finally remove the case and save that fine shooting barrel ...

Case still stuck? Have you tried sulpher to get it out?

[pcmacd]

No filler with Unique. Not needed.

The rule of thumb: If it isn't mentioned, it didn't happen. Filler would certainly be mentioned if it was used. I've seen a load of 4 grs used in a rifle but the bullet didn't make it out of the bore. I think with 6 grs it did but barely. Eight and 10 grains is no problem. I use 10.5 grs in the 6.5x55 with a 140 gr. bullet and it makes 1,500 fps. And I've used 10.5 grs (Lee dipper) in the 8x58RD with excellent accuracy but I've not chrono'd that load yet.

I've also started using 700X and gotten excellent accuracy. It's very close to the same characteristics of Unique. Dual purpose cast rifle and standard handgun powder. I don't think I've ever used, nor would use, a faster powder than these two in a cast bullet rifle load.

Dutch

In an ancient rifle, I agree with your assessment on propellent speed.

However, in US 30 Carbine, 7.62x39 SKS Russian 1953 DOM, Hakim 8x57 JS, Swede 1896 6.5x55 and other "more modern" centerfires, I have shot gas checked bullets, very hard cast with w/weights and foundry type, Dillon Blue lube at jacket bullet loads and speeds with great success.

I've shot the Rem 25 in 25-20 with hand loaded Meister "hard cast" 0.258" 80 something grain slugs, no GC at factory jacket bullet speeds; they were surprisingly accurate, offhand at 50 yards, a 1.5" pure vertical group, in a barrel what looks like a sewer pipe. And consider I don't do lots of offhand rifle shooting, I am old, have back issues, am presbyopic (makes it hard to see iron sights), etc.

No leading issues, nada, nichts, zilch, zero.

Don't believe everthing you read in the Lee Cast Bullet Handbook....

:-]