Minie ball in a Kentucky Long Rifle?

[ilcop22]

Howdy,
I'm in the process of building my first flintlock off a Kentucky Longrifle kit. I have a 42", 7/8" 1 in 70" twist .50 cal barrel. I'm wondering if minie balls can be fired from such a rifle/barrel? I've read some mention of it in books prior to the Springfield being introduced en masse. I can't seem to find a definitive answer, though. Thanks.

[Fly]

Well that twist is for a patched round ball.Most mini barrels are 1 in 48 or faster.I,m
told that a mini will tumble if shot threw a slow twist barrel.

With that said I did shoot a few threw my 1-66 barrel & they hit where I pointed.But
it was about 40 yards.I never tryed it again but I may, just cause I still have some.

Fly

[Dean D.]

Well that twist is for a patched round ball.Most mini barrels are 1 in 48 or faster. Fly

I agree with Fly. I doubt seriously you would have much luck with conical boolits with that slow of twist at any distance.

If you have never shot patched roundball before you may be surprised at how accurate they can be! :shock: :grin:

[mooman76]

Yes you can, but like the others said, it's really not the right twist. What are you wanting to do by firing a minie? Is it a hunting or target load? The reason I ask is you could possibly get a minie/maxie to shoot minute of deer but it's almost certain it won't be very good for any kind of target load. Your best bet would be with a short minie/maxie and the shorter the better, like the Lee REAL. I got them to shoot out of a Kentucky 45. Not too bad but not very good for a target load and I would have occasional fliers like it was on the edge of stability.

[ilcop22]

Thanks for the input, guys. I ask out of curiosity as I know next to nothing about the minie ball outside of its origins. I'll likely stick to ball when I get my KLR up and running. Any info on how good .50 ball is for deer? Centerfire rifle hunting is illegal in Illinois, outside of rimfire for squirrel in some parts and hunting coyote. I'd be interested to know if the Kentucky Rifle is a good deer getter.

[waksupi]

You will find the .50 with round ball just fine for deer out to 100 yards, give or take a few yards. Considering most are taken under fifty yards, you should have it covered, like a fat lady on a pot.

[northmn]

A roundball barrel also has a deeper rifling as well as a slower twist rate. Most look at the twist but it is the design of the system as a whole. One of the issues with a 010 depth or ddeper is whether the minnie wouls also fully upset into the rifling and whether there would be blowby. Some get all hung up on the "comprimise" twists in a 50 production rifle when in fact the comprimise is also rifling depth.
A 50 cal rifle shooting a roundball is about as good a deer rifle as you can have. Lots have been killed with 45 roundball.

DP

[ilcop22]

Thanks for all the input. Guess I should get back on the bench and get back to work!

[RBak]

An age old question that I have pondered on for many many years!!

Folks, I have to agree that, as a rule, the faster twist is preferred for the Minie Ball, however, I own a 1861 Colt that has a 1:77 twist and was designed 'specifically' for the Minie Ball, as were tens of thousands of other Civil War Rifles.

In fact, the best off-hand 100 plus yd groups I have shot with any muzzleloaders over the years, the Colt and the big heavy Lyman 575213PH at 565gr has performed the best.
Wonderful Elk Medicine, a pleasure to shoot, even with lots of powder and that heavy projectile, it's just a wonderful overall gun.

However, I must admit, it took me years to "learn" what this gun liked and wanted to shoot as well as it does now. And, I learned most of what I now know about the performance of the gun right here on this forum...do you guys remember shooter 575? A walking, talking, typing, encyclopedia of information on old Civil War guns!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Guns/1861ColtElkRifle.jpg

I also have a Pedersoli .45 cal Pennsylvania Rifle with a 1:66 twist that loves the Maxi Ball from Lyman but not the REAL from Lee.
A T/C Hawken in .50 with a 1:48 twist simply thrives on the REAL, while another .50 with a 1:66 only likes round ball and patch and is persnickety about powder charges.

Explaining successful shooting of a Minie Ball in a Kentucky Rifle is a tough row to hoe, and then to explain the how's why's, especially when I have never completely understood all the why's, plus I seriously doubt anyone single person has understood it all, still yet, I fully realize we all want that question answered....
Is this another one of those "definite maybes"?
I would have to answer that question by saying, "some Minie Ball can accurately be fired in some Kentucky Longrifles"....which is not much better than a definite maybe.

I certainly don't want to be a smarty britches, but I honestly don't know why, all else being equal, some guns like the Minie and some don't.
It makes no sense at all to this old boy.

Many of young folks I know, that are shooting Conical / Minie in their .50's, have told some great stories about the Lee 'New Modern Minie' ....the one with with lots of grease grooves and looks like a trash can.
I shot a grand total of five at the range one day and I was totally impressed.

Can't say why I have never taken the time to add that mould to my collection, it has just never happened, but it is definitely on my list right now.

Will it improve over the others that I have worked on for years?
Did I waste years and years of time and money when the answer was right there in front of me?
Did just the picture of that trash can looking boolit mould turn me off?
Don't know, but I do know it is worth a look-see for those just starting to shoot conicals in a slow twist.

Russ...

[northmn]

I will go back to the type of rifling vs twist. A TC Hawken has both a 1-48 twist and shallower rifling. The Pedersoli also has a little shallower rifling than a custom barrel. The 1-66 twist barrel for the TC is a round ball barrel. The 58 rifled musket also has a shallower rifling than a round ball gun. Some custom barrels have rifling as deep as 016 for patched roundball. The slow twists in rifled muskets were designed to keep fouling to a minimum as they were made for rapid reloading. They seemed to work in the larger bore. As a minnie ball is probably a rather short projectile for a 58 they may stabilize. As to shooting slugs out of a round ball barrel. One probably can play with loads and get something that will shoot maybe passably. Generally they do not do so well.

DP

[mooman76]

Just goes to show that each gun is it's own and there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to loading. I might also add that back in the civil war era they were more concerned with loading quickly than they were accuracy. That used to puzzle me but if you ever seen the line after a large group fired, you can't see much anyway with all the smoke.

[northmn]

Just goes to show that each gun is it's own and there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to loading. I might also add that back in the civil war era they were more concerned with loading quickly than they were accuracy. That used to puzzle me but if you ever seen the line after a large group fired, you can't see much anyway with all the smoke.

Reminds me of duck hunting a couple of years ago, I jumped some woodducks out of a pothole while carrying my double hammer 16 loaded with Bismuth and black powder. It was a overcast humid day and at the first shot the smoke just hung there. By the time I could see the ducks again they were way out of range for the second barrel. I found the experience rather amusing. There were comments in letters home about the smoke on the battlefields during the BP days.
Original minnies were said to be slightly undersized as they wanted to be able to load into fouled barrels. Couple that with the barrel tolerances of the time and one might find that minute of angle with an original Springfield may have been rare.

DP

[SamTexas49]

Considering how many deer were harvested back in the 1700-1800s period with flintlock rifles, you will find the .50 cal "sparker" more then adequate and dont be surprised that at 50 yards or less that "ball" will probably punch through taking any rib bone it impacts with it!!

[ilcop22]

One more question since y'all have been kind enough to offer such insightful information thus far. Regarding the hardness of ball, I'm to understand that ball needs to be pure lead? I recently received around 50 lbs of "pure lead" from a member on here, but it measures in at 10 on the BHN scale. Given that 5 is pure lead, is this too hard to shoot? Thanks!

[Dean D.]

You should be fine using 10 BHN for patched roundballs. I use WW lead all the time. Conicals would be different. The patch on a roundball has enough give to work fine pretty much regardless of lead hardness (within reason of course).

For hunting your biggest concern is expansion, too hard and the ball does not expand at all, too soft and it deforms too much. I like the idea of getting better penetration from harder alloys.

This subject has been argued between muzzle loading shooters for many years, I've chosen who's advice I most believe and that is reflected in my statements above.

[RBak]

IMO, Dean D. has pretty much summed it up in regards to soft vs hard in your alloy with a round ball.

As a side note, I would like to add that I use WW in all my round ball used for hunting. I have taken three nice Elk with complete confidence that the round ball was going to do its job and it has never let me down.
However, my personal preference is still a heavy conical / Minie for this job. It's just not always available at the right time!

At the same time, I have recovered only one round ball from an Elk that I shot....on the other two shots both exited and couldn't be found.
The one ball I recovered looked like it could be patched and shot again after dropping an Elk with a really quick shot at 60 paces with my T/C Big Boar in .58 cal.
When the gun went off, the Elk jumped sideways and then "walked" off another 20 or so yards and laid down. After reloading, then watching and waiting about ten minutes, I walked over to it, kicked it, and it didn't flinch a muscle, it was stone dead.
The watching and waiting was a very looong ten minutes as I just knew that Elk was going to jump-up and run, but it never moved a hair.
When I got the Elk hung and finally dressed it out, I found that the roundball had entered just behind the left front leg and traveled the entire length of the Elk and was under the skin at the right hind-quarter....a real mess!!!

I have shot several Deer and never recovered a ball.
I have recovered a pure lead Maxi-Ball from one particular Deer and I thought I had pictures of that ball somewhere but I don't see them right now.
Anyway, the Maxi was a .50 cal and it did flatten just a wee bit, but was not at all what I had expected to see.

Other than a wee bit more weight and momentum I have seen little difference in taking an animal with a round ball versus a Minie, or Maxi.
And, I'm not convinced that the softness of pure lead has added anything to the killing power of the projectile. Those who have strong feelings about obturation, or bump-up, in a muzzleloader may have different feelings about pure lead...but that is just me and my thinking, other observations may vary as well as other experiences, but I think the one thing we can all agree on is the fact that the lowly muzzleloader is a very efficient killing machine in the hands of an experienced user.

Russ

[northmn]

Looking up lead hardness on a chart I see WW at a BNH of 9 which is slightly softer than the stuff you have. How much difference it would make I do not know. WW is equivalent in hardness to 30-1 lead tin and even 40-1 lead tin is at 8.5. Many use WW with good results and one does not argue with success. Even if you would dilute your lead it would still likely work well but be harder than pure lead.

DP

[Fly]

Good thread fellows.It was kinda like sitting around a camp fire with a bunch of ole muzzleloaders.

Don't get much better than that!
Fly

[ilcop22]

+1 to Fly's comment.

I appreciate all the insight. I'm really excited to get started shooting BP, and your stories are just making me that much more excited.

[RBak]

+1 to Fly's comment.

I appreciate all the insight. I'm really excited to get started shooting BP, and your stories are just making me that much more excited.

:holysheep

Sounds like you just might be getting the "bug"....as a fellow forum member I feel obligated to tell you that, as far as I know, there is no know cure for this affliction and the only relief known to man is simply more of the same.
It has been said that somewhere in the fifth or sixth decade of being bitten by this "bug", life as we once knew it could possibly return to normal...but only if you have passed on to others what you have learned here.....

Russ

[waksupi]

:holysheep

Sounds like you just might be getting the "bug"....as a fellow forum member I feel obligated to tell you that, as far as I know, there is no know cure for this affliction and the only relief known to man is simply more of the same.
It has been said that somewhere in the fifth or sixth decade of being bitten by this "bug", life as we once knew it could possibly return to normal...but only if you have passed on to others what you have learned here.....

Russ

I think you overstate the dangers. Muzzle loaders are no more addicting than Cast Boolits!

[Dean D.]

I think you overstate the dangers. Muzzle loaders are no more addicting than Cast Boolits!

[smilie=l: So sayeth Grand Master Enabler Waksupi [smilie=l:

[ResearchPress]

Well that twist is for a patched round ball.Most mini barrels are 1 in 48 or faster. I'm told that a mini will tumble if shot threw a slow twist barrel.
Someone has been telling you wrong information then.

The .577 cal Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket (commonly known as the '3 -band Enfield') had 1 in 78 rifling and was designed for the Minie bullet. The was the British service arm. Besides miliatry use, these rifles were used in the 1860s by Rifle Volunteer Corps in target shooting competition and shooting out to 600 yards. Beyond that the P.53 was not generally considered accurate enough for the target range.

Here in the UK we shoot muzzle loading military rifle matches out to 800 yards. Most use the 2-band Enfield, but the 3-band appears now and again and seems to shot as well as the shorter rifle.

As has been discussed in early posts, I think the issue will be the form of rifling used in the Kentucky, not its pitch. Apart from the earliest models which had unifrom depth rifling of .014in, the P.53 had progressive depth rifling being .015 at the breech and .005 at the muzzle. It had 3 grooves.

David

[fixit]

i suppose i should chime in with my experience. i have an old CVA 45 kentucky rifle with a 1 in 66 twist, and i shoot conicals, with the sticky point being that they are .451 pistol boolits. it works well with a 155 wadcutter, a 200 round flat , and to my suprise, i can get minute of whitetail accuracy from the 255 round flat nose lee boolit and 70 grains of ffg. the upshot is, don't be afraid to experiment!!

[Newtire]

I read somewhere that it has to do with the center of gravity. A Minie' is more like a Forstner slug than a Maxi-ball, so it takes little spin to stabilize it. I know they don't travel that fast but they go pretty far with some semblance of accuracy from what I hear. I just won a Zoli Zouave rifle on Gunbroker so aim to find out.

[crossxsticks]

An age old question that I have pondered on for many many years!!



Many of young folks I know, that are shooting Conical / Minie in their .50's, have told some great stories about the Lee 'New Modern Minie' ....the one with with lots of grease grooves and looks like a trash can.
I shot a grand total of five at the range one day and I was totally impressed.




Russ...

which one a lee 90-471 .500 354 gr or lee 90 472 .500 360 gr. I have a new englander with 48 twist that needs help :grin: thanks .

[Southron]

Regarding " manufacturing tolerances" in production Springfield [Colt. Amoskeag. LG&Y, etc.,] Civil War Rifle-Muskets,they were generally held to 1/3000ths of an Inch, therefore making them "Fully Interchangeable" as far as switching parts was concerned.

So far as rifling is concerned....generally round ball rifles use a DEEPER GROOVE DEPTH than Minie Rifles.

What is unique about Civil War Rifle-Muskets is that they use Progressive Depth Rifling, i.e., the rifling groove depth at the breech is around 10 or 11 thousands of an inch deep and towards the muzzle it becomes gradually shallower, say around 5 Thou of an Inch.

What Progressive Depth Rifling does is to allow the use of UNDERSIZE MINIE BALLS. For example, in the late 1850's the British Ordnance Department reduced the diameter of the issue Pritchett (Minie) Ball from .568" to .550." This was because from the 2nd Model of the P-53 onward, the Enfields used PDR.

Because of the reduced diameter, not only were the .550 Diameter Pritchett Balls easier to load when the barrel was fouled from black powder fouling butthe accuracy was better!

While the American Springfield Rifle-Muskets along with the P-53 Enfields used a "slow" pitch of 1 in 72" or 1 in 78", the most accurate of all of the .577/.58 caliber military arms, the British P-58 Naval Rifles and the British P-60 Army Short Rifles [both the Navy and Army rifles used identical barrels] these barrels were 5 Land & Groove, PDR with a 1 in 48" twist. These rifles were accurate out to 800-900 yards!

So, I would recommend that when you finish your rifle, try it out with Minie Balls. You might be pleasantly surprised as to how well it shoots. Since you don't have PDR in your barrel, use a Minie Ball no smaller than 2 Thou under your barrel's bore diameter. Cast your Minies out of pure, SOFT lead.

GOOD LUCK

[OverMax]

Shooting too (hard) a ball can defeat what its shooter is wanting. Soft lead starts its expansion upon impact thus dumping its energy as it moves along and changing shape as it passes through the animals tissue and perhaps colliding with bone which causes a horrendous amount of tissue damage._ Harder BHN ball may promote a similar performance to what a Full medal jacketed does. Simply pass thru side to side glancing off bone and creating a small ball size wound channel due to having little to no change in its shape.

[fouronesix]

Howdy,
I'm in the process of building my first flintlock off a Kentucky Longrifle kit. I have a 42", 7/8" 1 in 70" twist .50 cal barrel. I'm wondering if minie balls can be fired from such a rifle/barrel? I've read some mention of it in books prior to the Springfield being introduced en masse. I can't seem to find a definitive answer, though. Thanks.

For that pretty slow twist 50 cal…chances are the patched roundball will shoot better, but it won't hurt anything to try a true Minié.

Apparently the terminology is still getting mixed up amongst shooters. May have all started when T/C introduced the Maxiball. Since then the terms and definitions all get tossed around interchangeably… mini, minnie, Minié, maxi, mini ball, maxiball, so on and forth. But, they are not the same and are not ballistically similar. By the way, the word Minié was derived from the name of the person who was instrumental in developing it.

A solid base conical is simply a conventional bullet that requires gyroscopic forces from spin to be stable in flight. Its center of gravity is likely not forward of its center of aerodynamic pressure. These type bullets require faster twists (faster spin rates) for stability. Examples would include the T/C Maxiball and the Lee REAL.

A hollow base Minié requires minimal gyroscopic force from spin to be stable in flight because its center of gravity is likely forward of its center of aerodynamic pressure. These true Miniés tend to be aerodynamically stable in flight and not so dependent upon the gyroscopic stabilization from spin (something similar to a badminton shuttle cock). So, they do not require faster twist bores (faster spin rates) for stability.

[mooman76]

which one a lee 90-471 .500 354 gr or lee 90 472 .500 360 gr. I have a new englander with 48 twist that needs help :grin: thanks .

He is talking about the 90-471, It looks like a wadcutter bullet with allot of shallow lube gooves.http://leeprecision.com/mold-500-354-m.html

The Lee REAL should shoot good in yours also with that twist.

[crossxsticks]

He is talking about the 90-471, It looks like a wadcutter bullet with allot of shallow lube gooves.http://leeprecision.com/mold-500-354-m.html

The Lee REAL should shoot good in yours also with that twist.

thank you

[Newtire]

The thing I noticed about the REAL is that the"base band" didn't seem to get much thought. I' m thinking that the very narrow band on the bottom needs to be made wider like a maxi-ball & then you'd have something.

Had real good shooting with the REAL when using less than 60 gr. 3F in my .50 TC 1-48 twist but over that & had lots of opening of the group (went to potties- ville) while the TC maxi-ball shot well using 110 gr. of 2f.

I think the maxi-ball width of base band and the short overall length of a Lee short version REAL would be a winning combination.

Someone in this thread already said this so I'm just repeating what he may have already found out. That is that a .451 boolit made for a .45 acp maybe(?) worked well in his .45 CVA I met a guy once who said he found that to be true also and in a .45 CVA also with a slow twist but I thought he was just trying to sell his rifle maybe.

In any case, I think we need a boolit with a wide base band of smaller diameter so as to act as a pilot and a narrower band (also smaller diameter) and a groove size short nose.
Playing around with sizers and an existing .45 long Colt boolit ought to make something close.

I might just try that out.

I bought a Lee Minie-ball mould in .50 but the hollow part of the base looks alot too short, leaving too much lead to be stabilized out front. I am going to give it a try anyway.

Interesting thread, I think we all might learn something if the thread more or less keeps to the topic....but you know, my wife's Aunt Minnie makes the best chocolate Christmas balls....She looks so funny cooking them with that .018 linen patch over one eye....Sorry, easy to get off track...

[M-Tecs]

Post #25 (newtire) and #29 (fouronsix) have the correct answer as to why true minies preform in slow twist rifling. If it doesn't have a large hollow base it is not a minie ball. Minies balls like hollow base slugs require little or no spin to stabilize. Conical bullets require more spin to stabilize. The longer bullet the more spin required to stabilize.

A true minie ball should work well in your twist. If you try to pushing them to hard blowing the skirt can be am issue. If you are going to try a conical the shorter the better for slow twists.