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RhodeHunter
05-27-2011, 01:45 PM
I have read some threads where it is mentioned that breech end of bore is larger than muzzle end? I should slug the breech end? Would it be problematic to get lead into the breech plug threads? Any advice? I want to try and get a tighter fit for my Lee REAL cast boolits. Is .002 over a good goal to have? The gun is a .50 cal. CVA Optima magnum. This is my first gun and I am sharing this used mould with another hunter. It's the only mould we've tried.

onondaga
05-27-2011, 03:38 PM
Your question is not making any sense to me. The R.E.A.L. boolits are very oversize as cast and for a purpose. My 50 cal R.E.A.L. boolits cast .513 to .514" . The bore in my muzzle loader is about .500" groove to groove.

Those boolits are named that way because the Rifling is Engraved At Loading. They are way over bore size so they can be engraved as you load them. They are designed to be used un-sized at all and started at the muzzle to size them and fit them to the rifling as you load them.

I think you misunderstand the boolit design entirely if you want to size them to use in a muzzle loader.

They should be cast with the softest, purest lead you can get or they will be difficult, more difficult or impossible to load at all if you cast them using a harder alloy like wheelweght or Linotype.

I really like the R.E.A.L. 250 grain bullet and use it in my Lyman Great Plains Hunter with a 1:48 twist and 80 Grains Pyrodex P. The load groups 1 inch @ 50 yards all day and has done well for me on Whitetail in Western New York. It is also available in a 320 gr boolit mould. Are you sure this is what you are using in a 50 cal ML rifle??:

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/MOLD-D-C-50CAL-250.html
Click link to see picture.

Only .002 overbore with a R.E.A.L would be useless and have terrible gas jetting. They are intentionally very overbore already, much, much more than .002" and that is required of the design.

If you have loose fitting R.E.A.L. boolits, the only reason I could figure is that you are trying to shoot 50 cal R.E.A.L. boolits in a 54 caliber rifle.

Welcome to the board here, but I'd like to see you get a better start and would be happy to answer any questions.


Gary

montana_charlie
05-27-2011, 04:15 PM
The rifles with tapered bores are cartridge guns. It wouldn't make any sense to have a taper in a muzzle loader.
CM

RhodeHunter
05-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Thanks. I have the 320 gr Lee REAL mould. The ones I cast loaded very easily, especially compared to the patched round ball. I was thinking almost too easily. And I know I'm a beginner, but I know the caliber of my firearm. I don't want the REAL boolit to move in the barrel and create a short-start. Especially if I'm holding my rifle in a tree-stand, facing the ground for hours, gravity would want to move it off the powder load.

I cast at a very high temperature (around 800-850) because my friend said he was having problems with filling out the boolit. Maybe the high temp caused shrinkage? I know that in my case I should be aiming for pure lead, and so I purchased some Marvelux.

My intention at this point is to clean the vent lines in the mould and to try lapping the mould to increase the diameter a smidge.

RhodeHunter
05-27-2011, 04:42 PM
The rifles with tapered bores are cartridge guns. It wouldn't make any sense to have a taper in a muzzle loader.
CM

Thanks. So I'll just slug it at the muzzle end, like in the youtube video. I just want some good solid measurements so I can see where I'm at.

mooman76
05-27-2011, 04:51 PM
The REAL should load harder tan that. Not dramatically harder but harder than a patched ball unless of coarse you are loading patched balls super tight. The first one shouldn't be too real hard but after the first shot you'll have a some barrel fouling and the second will load abit harder. Do you have means to measure the REAL you are casting? Like onondago said your REALs should be dropping somewhere around 513 and the barrel should be close to .500.

RhodeHunter
05-27-2011, 05:44 PM
I have to pick up calipers or a micrometer. Do you measure the bottom ring? Is it called a lube ring or drive band or what? I think the boolit might be tapered. I'm sure I'll measure both when I get a measuring instrument, which I'm going to look for at Sears.

mooman76
05-27-2011, 07:32 PM
You are right. It is tapered. The top band would be the largest with the bottom right about or just over bore size.

onondaga
05-27-2011, 07:46 PM
The bands on the R.E.A.L. stick out and the grooves are between them. The bands are not all the same size on that boolit. The band closest to the base is the smallest and the one nearest the point should measure biggest about .513"

Shooting Pyrodex, I dry patch after every round or the boolits will quickly get too difficult to load.

Casting at 800+ degrees is completely unnecessary. If you have to cast that hot it is your mold temperature that is way off. You have to cast 3 -4 times a minute to keep a mold hot enough to get good fillout. 675 is plenty hot for pure lead and lower temperatures are used the more tin/antimony that is in the alloy.

If you force a R.E.A.L. , loading it past fowling you will diminish the diameter of the boolit by abrading it smaller with fowling friction. Clean more between shots if you are getting a rough feeling push down with the ramrod or, yes. your boolits will fall right out. If you are really careless and scrape your bullets smaller you will notice low recoil and a hissing with the bang from gas jetting because the bullets won't expand and seat to the bore on firing because you ruined them. That is the most common error and complaint with R.E.A.L. bullet shooters that are unhappy with them.

The alternative for less cleaning is to use sugar substitute, no sulfur powders like American Pioneer Powder. Zero cleaning is needed between shots all season long but volume measuring with them has poor accuracy and my groups open up a lot unless I use a scale. The granule size runs all over the place. Take an average weight of your desired volume charge to get better charge consistency and use a scale with the sugar powders.

With a clean barrel, I cannot push a R.E.A.L. bullet into the muzzle to start it with my thumb and must use a ball starter and a good smack. If yours are easy to start- you have a big problem. I'd really have to see your mold, your rifle, your casting method, and your loading method. Those boolits are supposed to be hard to start and then they make their own fit as you load them down the barrel.



Gary

leftiye
05-27-2011, 08:13 PM
The rifles with tapered bores are cartridge guns. It wouldn't make any sense to have a taper in a muzzle loader.
CM

Actually it would be dangerous, the slug has to be seated and tamped down on top of the powder. If it were to slide forward (and not be right on top of the powder), it could easily (would probly) cause your gun to blow up, or bulge your barrel. If the slug is not on top of the powder and moving out of the way of the explosion (let's not get picky) it will act like a bore obstruction.

gray wolf
05-28-2011, 08:04 AM
Even after all the good advise ( I understand it perfectly )
Being new and from what you are asking and saying, it sounds like you need to get with someone that can show you with some hands on what your problems may be.
I shoot a white rifle .504 ultra Mag. the barrel is .504 and my 475 grain bullets are .505
But the White system is a slip fit system and my slugs can be started with one the pressure of one finger. the weight of the ram rod itself will almost seat the bullet. They do not come off the charge if I tip the barrel down, And I can load many, many shots with Pyro P without cleaning.
But as a habit I swab between shots. My rifle will shoot clover leafs all day at 60 to 75 yards.
This type of ease of loading conical bullets is exclusive to the White rifle system.
For your rifle the advise you have been given sounds like what you need.
Forget .002 over bore, and use pure lead or 30/1 The R.E.A.L bullet should be a little hard to start and engrave the rifling as you push it down the barrel. It does not take that much to hold it against the powder.

RhodeHunter
05-28-2011, 03:14 PM
First of all, thanks to y'all for all the time you're giving. If I could go back in time, my grandfather from Florida would be helping me. Trying to recreate a hunting tradition from two generations removed is definately a challenge.

Look, I know now that the R.E.A.L. should not be sized, but my friend (and I from my first casting session) used a Lyman 450 Sizer/Lubricator on these boolits. The DIE is Lyman #2766521 .512 diameter. There is NO evidence that the die is contacting the bands at all. I believe without a doubt that I would see some silver color against the black backdrop of the Lyman Super Moly bullet lubricant. That can only mean that the as-cast boolit diameter is under .512. The Lyman press is a convenient way to apply a nice uniform coating of this ugly black grease, once the press has been heated somewhat with a heat gun set on low. I would really like to use a different lube that could be applied shaking around in a milk jug, and not use the Lyman press at all. How do you guys lube the R.E.A.L.?

I'm going to try and confirm the as-cast diameter by the end of today.

RhodeHunter
05-28-2011, 03:43 PM
Oh, and here's a how my first day of shooting with the CVA Optima went:

I brought a box of Hornady .490 swaged lead balls, TC lubed patches .015 thickness, my cast R.E.A.L.'s, Pyrodex RS, and a boatload of anticipation.

I had read in Sam Fadala's excellent book "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook", that even though RB is better shot through a 1-in-66 or a 1-in-48 barrel, that I could do it in my 1-in-28 gun if I reduced my powder to 40-50 gr. I shot 16 rounds total that day, all with 50 gr. of powder. My first ten shots were round ball, the last six with the REAL. I did not notice any change at all in the ease of loading throughout the day, other than the REAL's (once started) were pushed down-bore with MUCH less effort than the patched round balls.

We were shooting off a bench at 50 yards, except for my last two shots which were aimed at a paper plate at 100 yards. My more experienced friend and I both missed the plate 6 inches to the right, because imho we didn't adjust for the wind. Boy do I wish I could take those shots over again.

The round balls shot OK, but the rear sight was way off at first. The screw was pretty loose from the factory I think. They're fiber optic sights.

Me and another newbie are trying to join the shooting club in June, and we will have two probationary years to get through with lots of meetings and work parties.

Needless to say, I am looking forward to getting back to the range.

mooman76
05-28-2011, 03:46 PM
I just wipe it on with my fingers. Kind of messy but it works and I don't have to worry about bullets sitting around collecting dirt. I take a rag with me to the range to wipe my hands off.

mooman76
05-28-2011, 03:53 PM
Yes your REALs probably would go in a little easier than patched RBs once you initially start them. I misunderstood your first post.

Maven
05-28-2011, 03:54 PM
RhodeHunter, Several things to comment on: If you're using black powder or Pyrodex, Lyman SuperMoly lube isn't the best choice. You'll want a BP lube, which you can apply with your fingers or a popsicle stick. Second, if you're casting those REAL's of pure Pb, you don't need to raise the temp. beyond 800 deg. F.* Third, various manufacturers' molds, unfortunately, vary from the advertised diameter. My 2 Lee REAL's were and basically slid down the bbl. of their own weight. Yours may also cast a bit small. If so, you can try to "Beagle" or paper patch the REAL. The latter helped in my case, but the bullet still wasn't accurate enough to suit me and thus, I sold the mold.

Beagling a mold: http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/BDE.pdf


*assuming a clean mold, which has been smoked with wooden matches or a BIC lighter. If a wheelweight alloy, not beyond 750 deg. F.

onondaga
05-28-2011, 06:22 PM
Sounds like you are moving right along. Lube selection can get pretty debated. I do use what sounds just like you are wanting. I use straight Lee Liquid Alox tumble lube on my R.E.A.L. bullets and have been doing that for over 10 years. It is simple, and it works for me just fine.

I have tried a variety of traditional lubes and just decided to go simple one day, with no provocation or advise from anybody, and tried the LLA tumble lube and haven't gone back.

Gary

RhodeHunter
05-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Thanks. You guys are a great help. I picked up a Made-in-China micrometer from Sears this afternoon. I'm pretty pressed for time today so I just measured one boolit.

The top band, which is basically the base of the nose cone, the widest point, measured at .513, just like you said it should. The bottom band measured at .500. How could a boolit put through a .512 sizing die come out .513? Must be worn or something.

So either my barrel is oversized, or my concerns are unfounded.

Next I plan to slug the barrel.

Thanks for the lube advice; I'll be trying that pan lube. My friend also suggested putting bore butter into the press with a spatula-type instrument such as a popsicle stick.

onondaga
05-28-2011, 09:27 PM
It is not uncommon to have rebound when a boolit is sized.

From advise I got on the board here before I honed out a sizing die, I only checked the resultant size of the boolite after they were sized and never measured the die itself. I just kept honing and checking boolit size till I got what I wanted.

The soft alloy is very important with the R.E.A.L. bullet. I think if you stick with that you will be fine .

I mentioned my charge with the 250 gr bullet above, The heavier bullet will likely like a lighter charge, and you will likely get an accuracy sweet spot 70-75 grains, maybe more depending on what your rifle likes. It does take work and time to work up a load for accuracy by shooting groups and walking up charges. I'd say start at 68 and keep shooting groups and see how far you can go in 2 grain increments.

When I range test ML guns I take an analog bathroom scale with me and load on the bathroom scale with my ramrod force at 80 pounds every time seating the boolit. This eliminates a significant variable and gets you accustomed to a habitually repeatable bullet seating pressure with your ramrod. That is an important step toward accuracy.



Gary